Talk:Iraq War

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Minor suggestion

Change the flag by Zarqawi's name to ...the Al Qaeda flag...Zarqawi may have been Jordanian but he was a member of Al Qaeda first and foremost.

Possible outcomes of Iraq War

Hypothetically speaking if the US withdrew from Iraq, what would happen? -Pkpat2011

Is this a war on Terrorism?

Several users have asked to discuss this issue so here is my opinion: By definition, a war on terrorism must be declared, and have a specific enemy who has committed a crime. It has been proven that Iraq had no links to Al-Qaeda, or 9/11, or that Iraq had WMD's. The Iraq war has never been officially declared. Therefore, it isn't even a war. However, Saddam did violently repel an uprising after the first gulf war which killed civilians. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pkpat2011 (talk • contribs) .

Yes, it is part of the so-called "War on Terror". Yes, anyone's semi-intelligent knows that there never was any link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda etc. However, it suited the Bush administration's agenda (and the PNAC etc) to attempt to link them to give their oil grab the veil of legitimacy.GiollaUidir 23:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The War on Terrorism is equivalent to War on Drugs or War on Poverty. It is not literally a declared war, but is rather proper noun to describe a government policy, so a declaration of war is immaterial. Whether or not Iraq actually had ties to al Qaeda or 9/11 is also immaterial, the Bush administration pushed supposed ties and sold it as the overall package of why the Hussein administration had to be removed. So while it is true that there is no evidence that Iraq had any connection to al Qaeda now (and there's actually evidence to the contrary), at the time those connections were made. It's also difficult to say the occupation of Iraq is not part of the WoT now due to the presence of al Qaeda in Iraq and other foreign jihadists. So even if the 9/11 and al Qaeda links were fabricated when Iraq was invaded there are ties now. All in all, it's best to view "War on Terrorism" as a propaganda term used by the US and its allies. --Bobblehead 01:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the term is part of a line of similarly named US policies of ongoing vigilance. I question it's use in an encyclopaedia, unless qualified as a US policy name. Considering the international nature of the coalition, taking the US protagonists term might be seen as clear POV, rather than the best non-controversial description of the phenomenon, which I guess would be War in Iraq, or similar. Looking back at other wars, the umbrella campaign name or term would appear not to be used. Although that's a gut feeling, so if there's any history buffs reading this, please enlighten. Widefox 16:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

A lot of countries call it the War on Terror. Cerebral Warrior 17:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm from UK, we don't call our actions that. Tony Blair uses it as part of alignment with the US, but you'll not find him using such terms with IRA negotiations, or some such! It is a US term, with alignment. Widefox 20:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

One has to look at it in the context of how it was portrayed by the two primary aggressor* nations, the US and UK. Both refer to it as part of the wider War on Terror(ism)**. Thus, the appelation is correct.

*Before anyne gets their knickers in a twist, this is not a pejorative use of the term -- as the invaders they are in fact the aggressors, no matter what the provocation, real, perceived or imagined.

** The US Administration refers to it as the War on Terror, for reasons I don't want to go into other than to say that it's the same basic reason that covers why the RS-71 was renamed the SR-71, and why the EIC became the EITC. •Jim62sch• 17:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I think, instead of "aggressors", "protagonists" is the correct term. GWOT is more UK, or support for GWOT or some other watered down supportive phrase. Widefox 20:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Front line of Iraq war

Visit www.youtube.com, search Iraq IED. US soldiers in Humvees, M1A1 tanks, Bradleys, Strykers, trucks, and other vehicles are getting blown up by IED's. Unfortunately, the perpetrators are often not caught. However, US soldiers often mistake insurgent terrorists for civilians, which increases the civilian death toll.

Current event template...?

I think there should be a current event template at the top of the page. I know it seems obvious that the Iraq War is going on, and therefore, it could be argued that it is unneeded. But I disagree. Please comment. Also, I do not know how to do it, so if I could get some consensus that would be great.

Fishy figures

During the Vietnam Conflict news reports always said something along the lines of "Oh, at this offensive, hundreds died and at that battle thousands lost their lives."

Is the number of Iraqi deaths like that?--Patchouli 03:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No. Although there is a section in the article (or was anyway, editing's happening so fast currently!) about different operations by the US army. Although I think it would be extremely difficult to categorise deaths by Operation etc. Esp given the under-reporting of deaths.GiollaUidir 08:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion groups?

Deos anybody have any information on any discussion groups that are going on for those with loved ones or family members in Iraq? I'm writing a paper on the problem that there is a lack of them for those of us who are in that situation so I need to make sure that there is a sufficient enough lack to make a paper out of it. Thanks!

Casualties - the use of iraqbodycount as an "estimate"

In the text it says that "estimates" vary from Iraqbodycounts minimum death count to the recent report. I think that's rather wrong. Iraqbodycount is not an estimate of how many people that have died because of the war, but of how many that has been reported killed, and that's a huge diffrence. Sure, use IBCs number as a number of confirmed deaths, but not as an estimate because that's not what it is. --Merat 00:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The only actual verifiable figures are the recent ones in the Lancet-all other figures/estimates/guesses/propaganda should be removed from the article.GiollaUidir 09:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, I suggest that we put the confirmed number of deaths somewhere else in the article together with information about the difficulties of estimating the death toll etc, and use the Lancet study in (and other estimates of the total death toll, if there are any) in the beginning of the article and in the information box. Although with respect to IBCs work, using their numbers there is like saying that an unrecorded deaths is not a death at all. --Merat 09:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. The figures used for Darfur etc were obtained using the same methods as the Lancet study for Iraq so should be included as the death toll in the info-box. The Iraqi Health Ministry and IBC have roughly the same number... I agree with a new section for documenting the controversy.GiollaUidir 10:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, no opposition yet. I'll edit it and we'll see what happens next. --Merat 09:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see some range, the 655,000 alone doesn't represent the fact that nobody knows for sure how many have died. I don't think we should simply find the study with the highest amount imaginable and use that as fact. Rmt2m 12:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

First off, the Lancet study is, from what I know, the only study of it's sort. The US-led coalition has said that they "don't do body counts" (which is in violation of the Genève Conventions) and therefore information of this sort is scarce. Secondly, some range is given in the study. It says that they are "95 % sure" that between 392 979 to 942 636 Iraqis have died, but came up with 655 000 as a reasonable number (And there you also see that 655 000 isn't the "higherst amount imaginable"). --Merat 19:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

To me, that brings into question the methodology of the report. How can anyone say that they are 95% sure that between 392,979 and 942,636 people have died? There's a gap of almost 550,000 in there, meaning that they are 95% certain of bupkus. Notwithstanding an official DoD count, there are other methods, like IBC, that have more verifiable ways of confirming deaths, such as using multiple sources. Rmt2m 20:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Saying that one is 95% sure that a figure lies within a certain range is just about the best way to present statistics. It's not an empty statement, or "bupkus", at all. It means it's very unlikely that the casualty rate is as low as 200,000 or as high as 1,000,000, and it acknowledges just how much uncertainty there is in the count - a lot. Having studied some statistics, I would question the methodology of a report that doesn't present its results in terms of a confidence interval. Omitting the error bars is one of the most common ways to mislead with stats; let's not do that. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I suppose I expressed myself a bit bad. Instead of "they are "95 % sure" that between 392 979 to 942 636 Iraqis have died" , it should rather be "according to their research, the chance that the number of deaths is between 392 979 and 942 636, is 95 %." If you have questions on methodology then read the report. As I have previously said, IBC states that it only counts reported deaths, which makes it useless in this context. --Merat 20:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess what I fail to realize is why we shouldn't simply use a count of confirmed deaths. At least then the number has some veracity, because otherwise it's conjecture. Rmt2m 23:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I've already told you why we shouldn't use IBC's numbers. Look at any other war article with a large number of casualties, do you think they are less conjecture? Do you just distrust this special report, or statistics on the whole? --Merat 00:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm a little confused, we shouldn't use IBC because those deaths are documented, but we should use this study because there not? Honestly the Lancet report seems a bit suspect to me. I don't doubt that there have been deaths that haven't been reported yet, but these numbers are beyond what is even remotely possible. The Lancet study was conducted over a period of three months which is hardly enough time to gather data for over 40. The Lancet study also mentions the fact that the DoD does in fact conduct body counts, "despite initially denying that they did." Rmt2m 01:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, there we have it. You seem to think the Lancet study is suspect because it gives too high numbers. Why would three months not be enough to do a statistical study, and where are that DoD body count then? --Merat 10:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, ask Lancet where the DoD count is. Of course it gives too high a number! There is absolutely no way that there are that many undocumented deaths. It defies reason. That's what I've been saying all along. And next week or month when a study comes out with 2.5 million deaths or 3 million deaths, y'all will most likely accept that one as fact as well. Rmt2m 13:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Why do you think that there cannot be so many undocumented deaths? It's close to civil war in Iraq, do you think a few western journalists have coverage over the whole country? Compared with IBC, the Lancet study says that abouth one tenth of the Iraqi deaths have been reported by western media, which I think is quite plausible. --Merat 14:05, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Because counts conducted by the Iraqi Health Ministry, Interior Ministry, Brookings Institution, the AP and virtually every other count don't even approach the numbers in the new lancet study. Listen, I don't question the fact that too many civilians are dying, but I think that it is irresponsible to display one study as fact when its' numbers vary significantly from others. That's all, I would just like to see some other studies used in the article for balance. Rmt2m 17:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying and I have never said that the Lancet study is right, but rather that IBC isn't very interesting for the infobox and the introduction of this article. They accept this themselves ("It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war." - quoted from the IBC homepage). Anyway, I proposed that we create a new section in the article where we can put forward the difficulties and controversies with the death count, and there we can have the IBC numbers. --Merat 18:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Another section in the article will be fine, but do you still want to use the Lancet study in the infobox? Rmt2m 21:57, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, but if there are other interesting estimations of the total death toll available then we can include them there as well. --Merat 22:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see maybe the Brookings and Iraqi Health Ministry counts if possible, they would take a line apiece at most. Rmt2m 22:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• Let's clarify a few things. You may indeed find the Lancet study suspect, but statistically the chances that the death toll is under 400,000 is 2.5%, likewise the chance that it is above 1,000,000.
• The DoD figures say that from May to August the average number of civilian deaths per day in incidents that the Coalition forces responded to was 117. Given that there are certainly huge numbers of incidents that they do not respond to (and either Iraqi police do or no-one does) such as sectarian murders, it seems safe to assume that the daily death toll in Iraq has been running at a minimum of 200 deaths per day from May to August, and by the U.S. Army's own admission it has gotten substantially worse since then, so perhaps at least 300 per day for the past two months. That alone produces a death toll of 36,000 for the past five months. If we use only the average number that the coalition responded to then it is still at least 21,000 since May. It shows just how poor a source Iraqbodycount or the Health Ministry are - neither of these sources is suggesting that half the total casualties have occured in the past 5 months; so either the DoD has got it wrong or neither of these are even close to accurate estimates of the death toll.
• If you have queries about the reliability of the Lancet study, I suggest you read this[1] analysis performed by a (conservative) British polling analyst who works for the highly respected British polling company Yougov [www.yougov.com]. Cripipper 12:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

So given the fact that all these studies differ so much, which should we use? Rmt2m 14:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

IBC is not a study; it is a tabulation of deaths reported in the media. Personally I think it is just fine the way it is, though maybe the footnote could be expanded. Cripipper 14:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Study-tabulation, I really don't care much for semantics. Rmt2m 22:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Three points

These edits keep getting reverted So I shall explain myself:

• "Massive civilian casualties" is an emotional opinion, which is why it was removed.
• "Widespread damage to civilian infrastructure" [2] is not documented in the link given, which is why it was removed.
• A badly done ref in the first paragraph has caused 3 paragraphs to dissappear, which is why it was replaced.

CJK 00:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I think "massive civilian casualties" was rather good, and i can't see any emotional part in, but okay. We can change "Massive civilian casualties" to "The deadliest conflict of the 21th century as of now, (according to the Lancet study)" if you like that better. And I'll find another link to support "Widespread damage to civilian infrastructure" if you want it. --Merat 14:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree with all of CJK's points. Cerebral Warrior 14:33, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It could be claimed that it is the deadliest conflict that started in the 21st Century (which is only 6 years old), but the deadliest conflict to take place in the 21st Century would be in the Congo.... Actually, now that I think about it, one could argue that the Iraq War began in 1998 with Clinton's bombing campaigns which continued up to OIF... that is, if we go by a strict definition of war which simply involves two nations attacking each others forces, not neccessarily regime change. CJK 21:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The fix was very simple...no one broke the ref with a / <ref name=IBC/><ref name="Second Lancet Study"> should be <ref name=IBC/><ref name="Second Lancet Study"/>. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Iraqbodycount and Iraqi health ministerim/Iraqi government count is not the same thing

Some people are talking about "Officially Iraqi government count" and "Iraqi health ministerium count" and later only linking to Iraqbodycount again, which is a rather useless count for estimating the casualties in Iraq (see discussion above: "Casualties - the use of iraqbodycount as an 'estimate'"). Unless you provide links directly to information about the Iraqi government count or Iraqi health ministerium count, I will remove the 40-thousandsomething estimates. --Merat 11:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

So much attention towards Iraqbodycount is diverting from the realities of the conflict. Rather than an estimate of casualties, it represents a bottom line, a minimum, only those accounted via the media and other first hand reports. For example, we quote estimates of 400k-600k of dead iraqi children as a result of UN sanctions, but none of those would have qualified for the iraqbodycount.88.15.59.243 19:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Spain and "pulling out"

In the article there is only one reference to spain as a member of the coalition, but there is not reference to the antiwar stance of Zapatero, his pledge to remove the troops if elected, 11-M, or the subsequent removal of the troops. Spain was the first to pull out, Italy is doing so and the UK may do so soon. The issue has repeatedly been raised in the US with questions to the president as to the return of the troops. Dont you think that this deserves to be tackled in the main article?88.15.59.243 19:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Some good points there. Why not add a section yourself?GiollaUidir 13:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Casualities

Part which I removed from infobox:

Civilian deaths officially reported by the Iraqi health ministry .': 43,850-48,693

The article cited, in an infobox, "civilian deaths officially reported by the Iraqi health ministry". Such counts are known to be extremely unreliable. According to the famouse second Lancet article [3], which merely repeats scientific consensus on this point, they are almost invariably underestimating by factor of 5, and often by more than 10x.

Long quote from Lancet article:

Our estimate of excess deaths is far higher than those reported in Iraq through passive surveillance measures.1,5 This discrepancy is not unexpected. Data from passive surveillance are rarely complete, even in stable circumstances, and are even less complete during conflict, when access is restricted and fatal events could be intentionally hidden. Aside from Bosnia,21 we can find no conflict situation where passive surveillance recorded more than 20% of the deaths measured by population-based methods. In several outbreaks, disease and death recorded by facility-based methods underestimated events by a factor of ten or more when compared with population based estimates.11,22–25 Between 1960 and 1990, newspaper accounts of political deaths in Guatemala correctly reported over 50% of deaths in years of low violence but less than 5% in years of highest violence.26

Figure that is known to be underestimated by at least 5x and most likely more has really no place in the infobox. It can of course be included with complete explanations later in the article. But as very few readers are aware of scale of inaccuracy and bias such methods have, a raw figure can easily create a mistaken impression that it is an estimate of total number of civilian deaths, a position which as far as I can tell, not a single person with relevant expertise holds. Taw 04:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no doubt that IBC does not catch all the deaths; however it is also extremely likely that the Hopkins study is on the high side (see, e.g. [4]655,000 War Dead? I myself have located at least one factual error in the opening three paragraphs of the Lancet study, and apparently according to its authors "the appendeces were written by students and should be ignored." How much else should be ignored? This study is not the last word on the issue and should not be treated as such. Cripipper 14:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Validity of Lancet study is not relevant at all. The relevant points are:

• Counting number of deaths in conflict based on passive surveillance is not a reasonable estimate of total number of deaths by at least 5x any typically more.
• Inclusion of such number in infobox without full discussion can easily lead to mistaken impression that such number is a reasonable estimate of total number of deaths.
• There's not enough space in the infobox to fully explain why such number is not a reasonable estimate of total number of deaths.

Do you disagree with one of these points, or do you want to include a number knowing it can easily be misleading ? Taw 14:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

• The validity of the Lancet study is very important, since you are quoting it as the source for the assertion that passive sureveillance techniques are out by 5x. There are many good arguments why 655,000 may not be a reasonable estimate either, so we either take them both out, or leave them both in with explanations in the footnotes.
• Passive surveillance picked up most deaths in Bosnia - who is to say they aren't being picked up here?
• It is not factually incorrect to say that the civilian casualty toll is somewhere between 50,000 and 665,000.
• Personally I don't think 50,000 is anything like an accurate count, but it seems to most observers that the real death toll is certainly much closer to the bottom range of the C.I. for the Lancet study than the stated 655,000, so - as you yourself say - do you want to include a number knowing it can be easily misleading? Cripipper 14:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Although I think the Lancet survey is the most significant currently available number, I have to side with Cripipper here. The Lancet number needs to be included in any responsible discussion, but the infobox has a duty to present only npov, independently verifiable data."Officially reported civilian deaths" is encyclopedic; to put the contested 655k figure in the infobox, as though it had the same authority, is potentially misleading. The WSJ editors, a group who have no small bias of their own, ask some valid and important questions of the Hopkins researchers' methods. There is a much less substantial criticism of the study in Science 20 October 2006: Vol. 314. no. 5798, pp. 396 - 397. Cyrusc 14:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

to clarify: quoting an "officially reported number" is acceptable to me, even though this number may fall drastically short of the real toll. WP infobox must leave suspicion of official bodycounts up to the reader. Putting the 655k number in the infobox is a different issue. Maybe there is some way to infobox 655k with the proper qualifications? I guess there's no reason for the infobox not to have a range of conflicting, similarly qualified estimates? Cyrusc 15:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

having trouble saying what I mean here. What I mean is that there's no dispute that ~50K was officially reported. There is dispute whether 655k have died. Cyrusc

• Personally I'd like to see it return to this version:

{{casualties3=Estimate of Total Iraqi civilian deaths of Iraqis (civilian and non-civilians) due to war:
43,850 to 655,000 (95% CI 392,979–942,636)}} Cripipper 15:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

• {{casualties3=Total Iraqi deaths due to war::
  43,850 to 655,000 (95% CI 392,979–942,636)}}

seems like a concise and accurate presentation of available facts. Cyrusc 15:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

There is ongoing controversy "main street bias" over the Lancet article methodology [5], so I consider it is not statistically valid to use it as an upper bound. If the method has a systematic flaw "main street bias", it cannot represent anything. The criticism of the data size being small is not however systematic, so that part of the criticism must be ignored, and is only useful for giving error limits on the value i.e. value +- error Widefox 17:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Two quick points. 1. The John Hopkins team canvassed homes in residential streets that ran off main avenues. This is an important distinction. 2. Main roads by their very definition attract people from all areas. A similar conclusion can be drawn with regard to attacks on street markets, mosques, office blocks, police/army recruitment centers, police stations, etc. The victims are likely to be a random cross section of society. And so I am not convinced that this potential 'main street bias' is entirely applicable. But let's see what they come up with and we will test the results. SMB 02:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

actually, there are a few papers out there (on cluster sampling generally, not on Iraqi wars) that mathematically demonstrate that the distribution of errors as number of clusters drops does become biased, but more likely towards underestimates; the "balance" is restored by the fewer number of overestimates being of larger magnitude.

A few ways to show this; the estimate from the Hopkins guys is a death rate of 2.5% (critics argue that in fact it's less than 2.5%); the absolute minimum possible estimate you could get, whether accurate or by error, is 0% and the maximum possible estimate is 100%, obviously. Equally obviously, therefore, even if the actual rate were as high as 2.5%, the minimum possible estimate would be low by -2.5%; the maximum possible estimate amount would be high by +97.5%. Clearly, if the mean of the errors has to equal zero, which is the entire basis of statistical theory, there have to be a lot more -2.5%s to balance out a few +97.5%s. All the more so if you are saying the actual number is really less than 2.5%.

Or, to work through an example, imagine a minefield which (you do not know) has 10% of the area actually mined, into which you toss a sample of 1 rock (which we can all agree is too low and produces an inaccurate result) to get an estimate of how mined it is. Obviously, there are only two possibilities; you have a 90% chance of not hitting a mine and getting an estimate of 0% mined, an error of -10%, but a 10% chance of hitting a mine and getting an estimate of 100% mined, an error of +90%. With this too-small sample size you are obviously 9 times more likely to UNDERestimate than you are to OVERestimate, although when you do overestimate it's a whopper. So, OK, you say that this 650,000 death rate could very well be one of these rare but huge overestimates. But...... don't forget this is the second time they've done the study, using independent samples, and the two generally agreed on death rates. What're the odds that you toss in two rocks and hit two mines, having both samples overestimate? 1%. But what're the odds that you toss in two rocks and neither hits a mine, having both samples underestimate? 81%. Doing the too small study twice and having them agree, you are 80 times more likely to underestimate than overestimate. Obviously this is an extreme example, but the same argument goes for the Hopkins studies; if there is any bias because of small sample size, it is much more likely to be in the direction of UNDERestimation. Or the sample size is adequate, and the estimate is not biased.

To sum up, whether or not the criticism of too small sample size has any validity, the estimate is virtually certainly not biased high. And if you add in the researchers' having assigned zero deaths to the three clusters which were not sampled, the possibility of this being an overestimate becomes even less. It's either in the correct neighborhood, or it's an underestimate. Gzuckier 19:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Or 50 clusters was not enough. When they conduct an opinion poll in Ireland, with a population of 4 million, they use 100 sampling points. Can 50 clusters be enough to be representative of a population of 25 million?

Again: if a spoonful is enough for me to test the saltiness of a bowl of soup, then it's enough for me to test the saltiness of a tureen of soup, I don't have to drink a cupful. Again: the size of the population being sampled appears nowhere in the mathematics, only the number of samples or clusters. Again: the confidence interval is calculated from the variance in the sampled clusters a posteriori, so reflects the actual variance between the clusters. If there is a huge variation in death rates, then the effect will be that the confidence interval is very wide, as in Hopkins study 2004, indicating you need more clusters. Again: if there really are insufficient clusters, then the most likely bias would be to UNDERSTATE the death rate. Again: in most cases, 50 is plenty to count whatever it is you are studying, as a general rule of thumb. More is nice, as it further insulates you from anomalies, but probably not worth getting shot over. Gzuckier 18:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I am against using Lancet, and highly against it being used alone. Lancet is a flawed method of counting, I am not sure how there can be a complaint against the official government agency doing the counting and a group of random people knocking on doors asking if someone died, and if so how. The thing I would clarifying on is ... The Lancet people claim most of the families had death certificates, if those are handed out by the ministry of health ... how can there be more certificates then bodies? Wouldnt this mean that

• A) bodies are being counted multiple times in Lancet
• B) Someone is handing out certificates that shouldn't
• C) There is a massive conspiracy

--NuclearZer0 18:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Death certificates are not issued by the Ministry of Health, but by local doctors. The Lancet study authors claim that local doctors are still issuing them, but that the structures for centrally collating the information within the country have broken down, which does not seem unreasonable. Cripipper 08:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to point out to Nuclear that the method used by the Lancet, rather than being a 'flawed method of counting', is the method the U.S. government uses for performing similar tasks. The the method is indesputably the global standard, the question at hand is whether there was a flaw in how it was carried out. Cripipper 08:25, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you show me proof that the US uses this method to count country wide dead? No because the truth is they use it for a census, which is entirely different. Calling someone and asking how many people live in the house is different then asking them how many dead they know or lived there. Having a death certificate is a flawed method further because the mother will get the certificate as well as the father and the wife, what prevents duplicates? these people do not all necessarily live together. Multiple doctors seeing the same body is also another problem since there is no central reporting location that prevents duplications. Do you honestly think that going door to door asking is a more reliable method then actually counting bodies? --NuclearZer0 12:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

You forgot

• D) your house got blown up by a bomb and the only thing left of Grandpa and Baby Sue is a handful of bloodstained linen.

That'll get you a couple of death certificates in the US, I imagine it would also in Iraq. Now, tell us more about this "flawed method of counting" meme of which you speak. Gzuckier 19:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

That is the flaw, you admit above that doctors arent following procedures and just issuing death certificates to people who show a pile of blood and guts, who is to say they arent issuing duplicates if they arent following procedure and reporting those deaths back, with the police infiltrated would it be a surprise that one doctor is spitting out death certificates incorrectly. Again No lancet alone, preferably no Lancet. Thank you for supporting my point --NuclearZer0 12:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, then how is it that the IBC numbers include a maximum and minimum? If they're actual counts of actual deaths? How is it that different sources on the scene report different numbers which the IBC is good enough to report? Could it be that SOMEBODY is just reporting piles of blood and guts to the IBC as deaths? And somebody else is ignoring those piles as no deaths? Could it be that they are missing quite a few deaths? Newborns who die after a few hours? People without a family who are killed on backstreets and dumped in the Tigris? Gzuckier 18:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

For what it is worth here is an Oct. 21, 2006 Reuters article with several other researchers backing up the Lancet study:

• http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061021/ts_nm/iraq_deaths_dc

And from the wikipedia page on the Lancet study is this: "In a letter to The Age, however, 27 epidemiologists and health professionals defended the methods of the study, writing that the studies 'methodology is sound and its conclusions should be taken seriously.'[29]"

• Link to letter. Published Oct. 21, 2006.

I suggest using a range of deaths (from low to high) as others have suggested. The Lancet range. I don't hear any real dispute about whether it is the best estimate so far. If a better estimate comes up then we can use it. --Timeshifter 16:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Small mistake

The paragraph "Criticisms of the rationale for the Iraq war" misses a blank between "and" & "Human". --User:89.58.6.137 15:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Big mistake

under Criticisms of the rationale for the Iraq war: "[62] In the U.S., 73 percent of Americans supported an invasion." If you go to the pdf-file refered to, you will find this sentence: "If military action is taken, 73% of Americans feel that their country should support this action." There is no data on the width and quality of the statistic, and, most importantly, there is a HUGE difference between what's in the wikipedia-article, and what this pdf-document says. Anyone who is a registered user should delete that sentence from the article right away, and if one is to use that statistic, one has to find the real source and not rewrite what the data is really saying. "In 41 countries the majority of the populace did not support an invasion of Iraq without U.N. sanction (and half said an invasion should not occur under any circumstances.)" The pdf-document doesn't state this, so this sentence should be deleted as well.

Bush considers changing tactics in Iraq

Oct. 20: President Bush acknowledges that "staying the course" in Iraq is not working and says he will consider a possible change in tactics in the war. (source: NBC)You guys got three days to include this, or that's it. I will.71.236.225.50 23:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC

I encourage you to read up on WP:Civility. I have also left a message on your talk page regarding your comments on the Talk:George W. Bush page. AuburnPilot^Talk 22:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Commanders Infobox

Erm, where did they all go? I presume Bush has been left as he is "commander in chief" of US forces but is the box not meant to reflect commanders on the ground or in the region??GiollaUidir 12:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Coalition Military Operations

Please stop adding the list of various operations to this article. There's another article,Military operations of the Iraq War that organizes all the operations which has been linked to here. The list that was on this page was incomplete and poorly organized-this other article does a much better job. Of course if the military operation was unusually important, like Operation Red Dawn then linking to it within the text is a good solution as well. Publicus 00:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Why? (Images discussion)

I have seen a reason that the current image "better represents the scope of the war" in some edits, but to put it simply the 4 photos look pretty bad the way they are. The same thing was done for the Lebanon-Israeli conflict, and I was no more impressed there. Frankly, I think that these pictures make the article look unprofessional in comparison to having a simple high quality photograph at the start. I think if we want to better represent the scope, we should include an array of photos in the article itself, not a hodgepodge of different ones thrown into the main picture, which isnt meant to summarize all that goes on in one look. Is there something else going on that I am missing? ~Rangeley (talk) 01:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. And do we have any photos of Iraqi casualties? So far (apart from the prison photo), we've got a wounded american soldier, a deeply cheesy photo of an american with a kid, and nothing of the iraqi casualties. yandman 07:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

One reason I liked the old main image was that it had Iraqi soldiers in it as opposed to the typical American soldiers, which seemed to be a good idea considering that more Iraqi soldiers have died than American, and further more Iraqis have died overall by far. As for casualties themselves, it would probably be harder to find them. But does anyone object to the replacing of the 4 spliced images with the old one? ~Rangeley (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I oppose this, as the Iraqi soldiers picture is included here, and the image covers many aspects. One picture cannot rapresent the whole conflict, --TheFEARgod (Ч) 23:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, the main picture is not supposed to cover the whole conflict, its impossible to do. Yours doesnt do it, it just takes 4 pictures, and squeezes them together in an unattractive manner. Its better to keep with the precedent set by other wars such as the Gulf War, 6 Day War, or Iran-Iraq War and simply use one high quality photo. If you want to use pictures to represent the "full scope," add more pictures to the body of the article. ~Rangeley (talk) 01:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's hear other thoughts, and at least put an other picture showing fighting. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like more photos, not less. There are very few photos in the article. Compare to the number of images in the Vietnam War page. Until there are more images in the article it doesn't make sense to lessen the number of images from 4 to 1 at the top. I will put the single image somewhere in the article. And I will put back the collage of 4 images at the top. I don't think Rangeley should have just changed to 1 image so abruptly without more discussion. Then again it got me to discuss it. :) --Timeshifter 21:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I dont consider it abrupt to wait 4 days after the discussion began, especially considering the 4 pictures squeezed together image was added without any discussion. I agree fully with your sentiments that the article needs more images, however splicing them together just makes the article look unprofessional and made in MS Paint. I will look for additional images to add to the article, but they will be added to the article itself, not existing pictures. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The last discussion in this section was only yesterday. I notice on your talk page that you have a lot of 3-revert rule violations, warnings, and discussions. Maybe you should have more patience. I don't find a collage of images to be unprofessional at all. In fact it takes more effort to create a collage. And clicking the collage image leads to links to the 4 images. The collage of 4 images has been up awhile. I know you may be wedded to your preferred image since you uploaded it. But let the discussion come to some sort of resolution instead of just taking the decision yourself. I put your image in the article in the 2005 section where it applies. Why did you revert that too? It makes a lot more sense there.--Timeshifter 21:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a discernible trend that discussion has shown, and thats the fact this article needs more images. This is where we all agree. The way to do this is not to squeeze images together, its to add more images to the body of the article. I have added an additional image, and invite anyone else to do the same. ~Rangeley (talk) 22:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

--Timeshifter 22:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC). I am transferring here this comment from you today on my user talk page. Rangeley wrote:

I am curious where you found "a lot" of 3RR violations and warnings directed towards me. ~Rangeley (talk) 22:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I found them on your user talk page. Back to the discussion. I added some more photos to the article. I like the collage, so please leave it up too. I also put in the photo you uploaded. So everyone should be happy, because all the photos are in the article, and hopefully more will be added. --Timeshifter 22:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

No, everyone isnt happy, as the original point was my objection to the collage, not a request to have "my image" re-instated. I still fail to see how it looks professional, and if the image of the Iraqi soldiers is not seen as a suitable alternative, I think an alternate image such as Feargod suggested should be used. ~Rangeley (talk) 22:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

--Timeshifter 23:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC). Well then, let us discuss it first, rather than continually changing the top image. I am transferring this comment of yours from my user talk page:

Since this seems to be a personal issue, it does not belong on the talk page for the Iraq War. The reason I bring it up with you is because I see no 3RR warning or violation on my talk page, you have now twice claimed them to be there. All I am asking you is for links to the 3RR violations on my talk page to back up your claim. ~Rangeley (talk) 23:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It is not a personal issue. Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rangeley

Then click the edit menu in your browser and find the word "revert". It is found many times on your user talk page. --Timeshifter 23:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Rangeley wrote:

Can you stop removing my comments from your talk page? I honestly wish to get to the bottom of things, and refuse to discuss personal matters in a discussion page for the Iraq war. You have made a rather serious accusation against me based on what is apperantly a search for the word "revert" on my talk page. What I am asking you is for specific links to specific sections proving your claim that I have "a lot" of 3RR violations and warnings. I can find one occasion in May where someone accused me of violating 3RR, and I probably did at such an early period of my time here, but this hardly qualifies as a lot. ~Rangeley (talk) 23:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

OK. I noticed several sections on your talk page where you were accused of numerous reversions. Sounds like 3RR violations to me, even if they were not always called that. I started the reversion discussion here because it is relevant to the image reversions here. So it is not personal. It has to do with this page here. I don't have time for arguing on my user talk page just for the sake of arguing with you. Whereas discussing it here serves a purpose. --Timeshifter 07:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

no, the article looks highly professional. Se the world wars, the US civil and liberation wars. This is a highly covered and intense war, so it would be rude to have only one picture on the top (the same works for other highly-covered conflicts) --TheFEARgod (Ч) 11:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Woah

What happenend. Somebody fix it.

Combatants/commanders: Having Hussein, al-Sadr and al-Qaeda on the same side

Iraq War
Location {{{place}}}
Belligerents
Ba'athist Iraq and Sunni Militants: Ba'athist Iraq File:White flag icon.jpg Ba'ath Loyalists Al-Qaeda in Iraq Other insurgent groups and militias	Coalition Forces: United States United Kingdom Australia Template:Country data flagcountry New Iraqi Army Kurdish forces Multinational forces in Iraq SCIRI others Shia Militants: Mahdi Army The militia of SCIRI (Badr Organization)
Commanders and leaders
Ba'athist Iraq and Sunni Militants: Saddam Hussein others Al-Qaeda: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi† Abu Ayyub al-Masri	George W. Bush Tommy Franks George Casey Brian Burridge Peter Wall others Shia Militants: Moqtada al-Sadr Mujahideen Shura Council

It's very misleading and Bush-POV. I suggest we split it into (at least) four sides. Something like this (Well, ok, this isn't very pretty looking, but I suppose we can do it better in the article):

Ba'athist Iraq.. | US

Sunni Militants| UK etc

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Al-Qaeda........| Shia Militants

--Merat 20:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - it's not just misleading; it's idiotic. At this point there are a few different wars going on. I'd say "Baathists" and "Sunni militants" probably are in the same category; "Shia militants" and the Madhi army in another category; al Qaeda in Iraq in a third category, and the "coalition" in a fourth. That is still too simplistic but it's a hell of a lot better than pretending al-Sadr is on the same side as al-Juburi or that either of them would have anything to do with al-Masri.--csloat 20:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

we should have three-sided infobox! ok? --TheFEARgod (Ч) 21:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

How about something like this (I know that it doesn't look very good, and maybe we should add more sides etc, but look at it as a draft):

--Merat 12:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks much better. By the way, I think "George Bush" can go. Having him listed as a commander looks silly, makes it sound like something from a Republican convention, and means we'd also have to put Blair in. Keep this for the generals. yandman 12:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Is there any way to get rid of the middle line so that there is only one column divided into 5 groups of combatants? I was playing around in one of my user sandboxes. I pasted the code here. The 2nd infobox is the one I am talking about to the right. Sorry if it extends down into the next talk section. --Timeshifter 19:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Iraq War
Location {{{place}}}
Belligerents
Ba'athist Iraq and Sunni Militants: Ba'athist Iraq File:White flag icon.jpg Ba'ath Loyalists Al-Qaeda in Iraq Other insurgent groups and militias Coalition Forces: United States United Kingdom Australia Template:Country data flagcountry New Iraqi Army Kurdish forces Multinational forces in Iraq SCIRI others Shia Militants: Mahdi Army The militia of SCIRI (Badr Organization)

Iraq Body Count

Can you please stop reverting the infobox to say that the IBC gets is info from morgues and hospitals. It does not. As it says on its own website "Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports from recognized sources." Cripipper 13:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Only the US-led coalition troops use body counts and do everything exactly, Iraqis don't.--Patchouli 14:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

--Timeshifter 15:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project

Mentioning only the media is not accurate. In my comment I asked that people check the IBC wikipedia page before deleting this:

"Sources are morgues, hospitals, and the media."

Here are some quotes from the IBC wikipedia page:

IBC is also not an "estimate" of total civilian deaths. It is a compilation of documented deaths, meaning that any deaths not reported or which were not recorded or made public by morgues or hospitals will not be counted. Only the central Baghdad area morgue has released figures consistently. While that is the largest morgue in Iraq and in the most consistently violent area, the absence of comprehensive morgue figures elsewhere will likely lead to some undercounting. IBC makes it clear that, due to these issues, its count will almost certainly be below the full toll in its 'Quick FAQ' on its homepage.

Another factor is that some reports emerge weeks or even months later - for instance the emergence of Baghdad city morgue reports for 2005 in early 2006. The 6 December line above was taken from the IBC total as it stood on 6 December 2005, but the emergence of the morgue figures later increased IBC's figures for that period to 31,818 - 35,747.]

You did not check the IBC wikipedia page, or you ignored what it said. As I mentioned in our previous discussion on another article talk page, I have noticed that you have several 3-revert violations discussed on your user talk page. In the future I suggest you bring disagreements to an article's talk page BEFORE reverting something where someone has given verifiable sources. A wikipedia page is a verifiable source. If you have disagreements with the wikipedia source page, then I suggest you take it up there first before doing reversions based on your own analysis. I believe that normally a wikipedia page will have done a lot more verification and analysis than you have on a particular topic.

I will report this to the official wikipedia mediators if you keep reverting this without discussion here first. Let others reading this act as mediators for now. Try having a little respect and patience before reverting stuff so fast. Our previous discussion was centered around the fact that you thought that you had a better vision of what wikipedia should be, and that you had "specialist" knowledge that you thought should possibly have precedence over current wikipedia rules. Or that your rules and/or knowledge and/or methodology should become part of wikipedia rules and guidelines. As I said then, the wikipedia guidelines have precedence for now. And one of those guidelines is about reversion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_revert_rule

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Reverting

Some quotes from that help page:

Reverting is a decision which should be taken seriously.

If you are not sure whether a revert is appropriate, discuss it first rather than immediately reverting or deleting it.

Do not simply revert changes that are made as part of a dispute. Be respectful to other editors, their contributions and their points of view.

Do not revert good faith edits. In other words, try to consider the editor "on the other end." If what one is attempting is a positive contribution to Wikipedia, a revert of those contributions is inappropriate unless, and only unless, you as an editor posess firm, substantive, and objective proof to the contrary. Mere disagreement is not such proof. See also Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith.

Generally there are misconceptions that problematic sections of an article or recent changes are the reasons for reverting or deletion. If they contain valid information, these texts should simply be edited and improved accordingly. Reverting is not a decision which should be taken lightly.

I have another idea. I took out any source explanation in the info box, since there is not enough room there to explain just how inadequate the IBC count is. Mentioning only the media, as you do, is not enough. There is a link to the wikipedia IBC page, so people can check for themselves about how IBC gets its count. I used the image caption instead for more explanation since there is more room to explain it a little better. And since the image is right under the infobox, then there is no need for duplicating the explanation in both places. Hope this helps.

Better yet, I will remove any explanation of what the sources are for the IBC count from both locations until further discussion. --Timeshifter 15:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh stop talking rubbish. Our previous discussion centered around the fact you were trying to insert original research into an article. FYI, go check Wikipedia:Citing_Sources - Note: Wikipedia articles may not be cited as sources Therefore, it matters not one jot what the Wikipedia entry on the IBC says, it's what the IBC website says that matters, and they gather their death toll from reading online newspapers. Let us repeat, you cannot use wikipedia as a source in a wikipedia article. IBC get their figures from newspapers - it cannot be more clear. IBC has no contact with morgues or hospitals, as any cursory glance at their website makes clear. Use of the words official figures, and morgues and hospitals gives IBC a veneer of official status and on-sight credibility that it does not deserve. Stick to the facts. IBC get their figures from reading newspapers - so what is your objection to the qualification based on media reports? Cripipper 17:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Remember what I told you about the word "assume"? ass-u-me You are making an ass out of u and me by making assumptions about me, others, etc.. I made no claims at all in the other article. I asked questions on the talk page, and you assumed I was going to make unfounded claims. Similar problem here. In the wikipedia article itself I did not claim a source for my statement "Sources are morgues, hospitals, and the media." I stated it as a fact. There was a link nearby to the Iraq Body Count project so people could get further info in general on them, the count, etc.. But I did not tie the two together. In this talk page I am using the Iraq Body Count wikipedia page as a shortcut. That page has verifiable sources for THEIR claims that support my statement "Sources are morgues, hospitals, and the media." You are playing a semantic game here. But to avoid further petty arguments, let us just leave out the sources. Let people go to the Iraq Body Count website, and the wikipedia page for it, and let them figure it out themselves. Both are linked in the infobox. By the way, I did not insert the words "official figures." Someone else must have done that. I find that "official figures" phrase laughable. Many morgues, hospitals, and media have only functioned sporadically in Iraq, as the IBC wikipedia page and many other sources have pointed out. And many of these sources do not report many of the insurgent deaths as that. Many are reported as simple murders, etc.. Try reading the IBC wikipedia page as I asked people to do in my comment. Follow their sources. --Timeshifter 19:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You have misread what the IBC entry on wikipedia says. The IBC does not use morgues and hospitals as a source for their numbers - the newspaper reports that the IBC relies on use morgues, hospitals as sources for their figures. Nowhere on the wiki IBC page does it say the IBC uses hospitals or morgues as a source for their figures. I can see how you could have misinterpreted the statement on the page that IBC is also not an "estimate" of total civilian deaths. It is a compilation of documented deaths, meaning that any deaths not reported or which were not recorded or made public by morgues or hospitals will not be counted, (which I am about to correct), but that is why we do not cite other wiki pages (you can call it short-cutting if you want but it amounts to the same thing). The purpose of my edits was to clarify the misleading impression that the IBC bases its figures on sources from morgues and hospitals, which it does not. That statement has now been removed. Cripipper 21:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I am glad you are trying to clarify the IBC wikipedia page a little. My statement is still true though. "Sources are morgues, hospitals, and the media." Maybe it should be clarified further though by saying this: "Sources are media reports (including their reports of morgue and hospital records)."

To see more clearly how morgue reports are used I found these mentions of morgues with a Google search of the IBC site:

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.iraqbodycount.net+morgue

To confuse things further here are quotes from critical articles about IBC's casualty counts:

The contrast between the graph showing 400 violent deaths a month in portions of Baghdad served by this morgue, and oft-cited Iraqbodycount estimate of about 500 violent deaths per month in the entire country, could not be more dramatic.

Source: http://www.alternet.org/story/31508

Another valid criticism of IBC relates to its exclusively Western media sources, which tend to be large media organizations that do not report the day to day violence that occurs in Iraq. IBC requires a source to be an "English language site," excluding at the outset more than 500 Arabic and Persian news outlets that the people of the Middle East rely on for information.

Source: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/041306J.shtml

A quote from IBC itself:

"We have not made use of Arabic or other non English language sources, except where these have been published in English. The reasons are pragmatic. We consider fluency in the language of the published report to be a key requirement for accurate analysis, and English is the only language in which all team members are fluent. It is possible that our count has excluded some victims as a result."

Source: http://reports.iraqbodycount.org/a_dossier_of_civilian_casualties_2003-2005.pdf

So one would have to say "Sources are English-language, mostly-Western, media (including their reporting of morgue and hospital records."

The more I learn of the inadequacy of the IBC methodology the less I am willing to explain it in a single sentence on the Iraq War wikipedia page. Even the above sentence gives it a veneer of too much credibility. Because it is essential that people also know that morgues, hospitals, and media have only functioned sporadically in Iraq. Especially Western media. So I have changed my mind completely on this. I say don't say anything about their methodology on the Iraq War page. Just link to the IBC wikipedia page. It has info and links that explain the inadequacies much better. Just linking to the IBC site itself is inadequate because they don't point out all the problems with their methodology as well as outside sources do. Those sources are on the IBC wikipedia page.

I think we should seriously consider removing the Iraq Body Count numbers from the Iraq War wikipedia page altogether. Why should wikipedia favor it over all the other estimates of war-related deaths?

"There are now at least 8 independent estimates of the number or rate of deaths induced by the invasion of Iraq. The source most favored by the war proponents (Iraqbodycount.org) is the lowest. Our estimate is the third from highest. Four of the estimates place the death toll above 100,000. The studies measure different things. Some are surveys, some are based on surveillance which is always incomplete in times of war. The three lowest estimates are surveillance based." (Roberts, email to Media Lens, August 22, 2005)

Source: http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060125_paved_with_good.php

I changed the infobox to read: "Civilian deaths recorded by the Iraq Body Count project as reported by English-language media"

That should give some idea of the inadequacy of the IBC count to newbies to the topic. Most thinking people will immediately wonder about the credibility of casualty numbers derived solely from English-language media in an Arabic-speaking nation.

I have another idea. I will also mention that there are 8 other casualty number estimates, or however many are currently listed on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003

--Timeshifter 01:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Come on! Who's going to read through all this?--Patchouli 13:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I feel your pain, Patchouli. :) I think Cripipper prefers now to leave the source out of the IBC infobox wording. So the problem may be resolved. --Timeshifter 13:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

---

--Timeshifter 13:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC). I see from one of your recent edit comments, Cripipper, that you now want to leave the IBC entry in the infobox without explanation as to source. Your edit said: "I thought we had agreed 'official' was out and that we'd offer no explanation." OK, that is fine by me. I had compromised and was willing to live with "English-language media" as being the source. Either one is fine by me now. Someone else (Freepsbane) keeps reverting back to older wording: "officially reported by media" in the infobox, and "reported by morgues, hospitals, and the media" in the IBC image caption. I wish Freepsbane would read, and/or join in, our discussion here before making further changes. --Timeshifter 13:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

JackNicholson today added this back to the infobox section on IBC: "Includes only deaths, officially reported by media". I noticed on his talk page several warnings and blocks by admins. One of the blocks occurring today. Cripipper fixed the infobox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jacknicholson

--Timeshifter 17:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

October 2005. Car bomb incident with suspected Americans

Two Americans disguised in Arab dress were caught as they tried to detonate a booby-trapped car in the al-Ghazaliyah residential neighborhood in western Baghdad. The men appeared suspicious and local residents apprehended the men as they left their Caprice car. The residents discovered that the two were Americans and called the police. Allied military authorities arrived at approximately the same time as the police and removed the two men before they could be questioned. (Free Market News, October 14, 2005 FreeMarketNew.com, www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=1326 last visited 10/22/06.)

The above paragraph has been deleted from the article by Nwe. Nwe wrote this edit comment: "this incident does not deserve a mention, let alone a paragraph, in such a wide-ranging article. Put it somewhere more specific if you want to." I thought I would put the paragraph here for possible discussion. And also for archiving in case there is another wikipedia page it belongs on. I don't know who posted this originally. --Timeshifter 22:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=1326