Talk:Antisemitism/Archive 20

Martin Luther King Jr. says "... You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of G-d's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is G-d's own truth. Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so."

Much of the Jewish community recognizes the Neturei Karta as being anti-semetic. No double-standard; if a Jew, Muslim or Christian hates Jews, they response (as a matter of intellectual honesty) needs to be the same. RK

How can a Jew be racist against Jews? Do Neturei Karta members want to send themselves to the concentration camps or back to the ghettos?

Hating someone for their religious or political beliefs may well be bigotry, and can even be hateful, but that doesn't make it "racist".

SJK asks "Do Neturei Karta members want to reintroduce the Nuremberg Laws? (No, but Meir Kahane, a Zionist, wanted to reintroduce the ban on sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews, although for reasons of anti-Gentilism not anti-Semitism.) Do Neturei Karta members teach that Jews drink the blood of Christian babies, are involved in secret conspiracies with Communists and bankers to rule the world?"

RK responds: the Neturei Karta do not make those specific claim, but they do teach other equally hateful things about all Jews. They teach that all Jews are literally releasing demonic forces within the land of Israel, and are therefore on the side of evil incarnate, and that they thus deserved the be slaughtered by the Nazis. If we do not call this hatespeech "antisemitic", then we must say that the Nazis and Neo-Nazis are also not antisemitic.

I would certaintly class Nazis, Neo-Nazis, and the KKK as anti-Semitic. (I do not know enough about Hamas to judge if they are anti-Semitic or not.) But they are very different from Neturei Karta. You say Neturei Karta "do teach other equally hateful things about all Jews". Since they are Jews, does it follow they teach these things about themselves? If they are saying these things about themselves also, it follows the things they say aren't hateful. But if they are not saying these things about themselves, it follows that they are not saying these things about all Jews, only some. Either way, they are not saying anything anti-Semitic; of course they aren't, because they are Jews, and a Jewish anti-Semite is an oxymoron. -- Simon J Kissane

I would point out that this group is called antisemitic justbecause they teach hatred of Jews. No, they don't teach hatred of themselves - but they DO teach hatred of all other Jews in the world. RK

They don't teach hatred of Jews. They (according to you -- as I said I don't exactly know) teach hatred of other Jews; but they can't be antisemites because they are Jews. To take a different example: suppose some guy, let's call him Jack, is a Protestant and he hates Catholics. Now it is true that he is anti-Catholic, but he isn't anti-Christian because he is a Christian. Or another example: Ahmed is a Sunni and he hates Shi'a. Now it is true he is anti-Shi'a, but he is not anti-Muslim because he is a Muslim. In the same way, Neturei Karta may well be anti-Reform Judaism, anti-Masorti, anti-Modern Orthodox, and anti heaps of other Jewish groups as well, but that doesn't make them antisemitic any more than Jack hating Catholics makes him anti-Christian or Ahmed hating Shi'a makes him anti-Muslim. -- SJK

SJK asks - Do they publish cartoons showing Jews with long noses? Do they say Hitler was a hero and the Holocaust never happened? They don't. They do none of these things. Therefore they are not anti-Semitic. "Jewish anti-Semtitism" is an invention of intra-Jewish propaganda, plain and simple. -- SJK.

I have absolutely nothing against Jews as a religion or an ethnic group. I do disagree with many of Israel's policies, and disagree with Zionism; but my reasons for doing so are not anti-Semitic at all. You seem to almost want to redefine anti-Semitism to mean "anyone who disagrees with me". I not only find that sort of rhetoric very offensive to myself, I also think it shows disrespect to the victims of real anti-Semitism. -- Simon J Kissane

Fringe groups exist in all communities, after all. There are some Christian extremist groups that promote virulent hatred against most Christians, except (of course) themselves. Same thing happens in other religions as well. Even mainstream Orthodox Jews from the rabbinical Council of America have now denounced the Neturei Karta as antisemitic. RK Orthodox rabbi denounces Neturei Karta as anti-Semitic

On the other hand, disagreeing with some of Israel's policies or laws is not anti-Zionist nor is it anti-Semitic. It would only be anti-Semitic if that person repeatedly criticized Israel and Jews only on such views, and repeatedly let similar laws or policies in other countries pass without equal criticism, and continued such a stance for a length of time.

As I said above, "ultra-Orthodox antisemitism" does not exist. Ultra-Orthodox are Jews, Jews cannot be anti-Semites, therefore there is no such thing as ultra-Orthodox antisemitism. To say this isn't to be antisemitic, it is to apply simple logic and common sense. Claiming that some ultra-Orthodox groups are antisemitic is simply propaganda. SJK

I am not denying the existence of antisemitism. Plenty of it exists in the world. All I am denying is that there are Jewish antisemites. A Jewish antisemite is like a black white supremacist -- they simply can't exist. SJK

Anyone who claims that black racists don't exists has never lived in the black community. There are a small number of self-hating black people, and the rest of the black community is not at all happy about this. And I am not talking about black Republicans, who some ultra-liberal black extremists pretend are anti-black (they are not.) I am talking about black people who really, really don't like black people. Just because they shouldn't exist doesn't mean that they don't exist. RK

If Neteuri Karta hate all other Jews (which I somewhat doubt, but I will take your word for it for the sake of the argument), they are still not anti-Semites, because they are Jews. They both consider themselves Jews, and they are generally recognized to be Jews. Therefore they cannot be antisemites. Plenty of other people can be and are antisemites. But for a Jew it is impossible to be an antisemite. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this simple piece of common sense. SJK

In Sudan IIRC its a case of Arabs enslaving blacks, not blacks enslaving each other -- but even if it isn't in that case, it's true that blacks have enslaved each other plenty of times before in history. But that isn't racism. How can it be possibly racist for a black person to enslave another black person? Immoral, yes; but racist, no. SJK

RK, have you ever considered that someone might disagree equally with policies that Israel has and policies that other countries have, yet publicly put most emphasis on Israeli misdeeds because of considerations of political relavance. The Middle East Conflict is a topic of constant interest in international politics. And one might simply evaluate that, looking at the evidence, Israel at present is more in the wrong than the Arabs are. Whether one is right or wrong to think that, it need not in any way be motivated by anti-Semitism. -- SJK

I disagree; I still hold that there are are black racists, there are self-hating homoseuxals, and there are some anti-Semitic ultra-Orthodox Jews. Police have documented attacks on homosexuals by men who have later turned out to have latent homosexual tendencies. Similarly, in Israel and America hatespeech is published against all Jews on the planet, by certain ultra-Orthodox sects. (The propagators of the hatred, of course, somehow find a way not to target themselves). The task is to describe them, and not to write them out of existence. RK

SJK is saying that by definition a person cannot practice racism towards other members of his ethnic group.

But obviously a person can do this! Daniel C. Boyer

Police reports prove this wrong. We are trying to describe the real world, not what we wish the world would be look. RK

If racism means to view some other group of people as inferior to your own because of their race, it would be impossible to do this if you were actually a member of this racial group. Unless racism is defined differently then I suppose that what RK is suggesting is a contradiction. -- sodium

Hating Jews isn't racism because Judaism isn't a race. Similarly, hating homosexuals isn't racism, because homosexuals aren't a race. Third, you may misunderstand the psychology of the people who do such things. Anyone who does such things developes elaborate psychological defense mechanisms to rationalise why they themselves don't fall into the category that they are attacking. I thunk you are describing what you think ought to exist, rather than what does exist. RK

No, you have missed the point entirely...

I don't believe I have missed the point. I was trying to sum up SJKs position: "All I am denying is that there are Jewish antisemites."

First off, hating Jews isn't racism because Judaism isn't a race. Similarly, hating homosexuals isn't racism, because homosexuals aren't a race

Actually Judaism is a race as well as a religion, stated on the main Anti-Semitism page. This is irrelevant anyway, broadly I was talking about any group which finds any other group inferior because of some attribute.

Third...

Where was the second point :-)?

..., you totally misunderstand the psychology of the people who do such things

SJK was simply arguing over the *definition* of antisemitism. Antisemites claim Jews are inferior because of their race/religion. You have to be from another race/religion to do this - it is impossible to find yourself inferior. Inferior to what? Are you saying that some Jews hate the rest of the jewish community? This would undoubtedly be a bad thing, but it is not antisemitism. -- sodium

I see what you mean, but this is not the sole definition of anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is hatred of Jews, period. There are many anti-Semites who hate Jews only because of their beliefs and practices, and not because of their ethnicity. These people don't argue that Jews are inherently inferior in a genetic or spritual sense; they hate something about Jews (something which may be real, such as their resistence to assimilation, or ability to gain good jobs, or something which may be imaginary, such as the belief that Jews are greedy and spiteful.) RK

I'm sure a lot of people would still consider a Jew hating (or believing inferior) his own race to be antisemitic or racist, but I would call that some form of self-loathing, since at least its not based on a superiority complex. And yes, it does exist.

Another thing I am not fully clear on: according to a book I have read ("Telling it like it Isn't", I forget the name of the author) there is biologically no such thing as "race." The author of that book stated, basically, that the difference between the "average genotype" of one "race" and that of another is so small as to be negligible; he said that the more correct term would be "ethnic group." Do you have any information on that theory? It seems like it would be very relevant to this article.

Whether or not the concept of race has any biological significance (it probably doesn't), it nonetheless clearly has political significance for many people, and this is an article about politics, not genetics. The book you mention should probably be mentioned by an article about Race itself (if it isn't already), but it as no significance here. --LDC

I moved the following sentence down here because it is to terse: Paul taught that the Jews were no longer in a special relationship with God, and that in God's eyes only Christians were the true offspring of Abraham.

Paul gives a detailed account in Romans 10 and 11. Can somebody give a more accurate summary, please? -- Di Stroppo

Um, if its too terse then why delete it? Calling it terse implies that more should be added. Are you asking why this theology is considered anti-Semitism by Jews? An analogy - imagine that a new religion was created, and in it people around the world claimed that God no longer loves Christians, but that God only loves the members of the new Church of Stan; further, they teach that "Stanians" are now the new Christians, and that all the old Chirstians will be damned unless they convert to Stanism. I think that most people would argree that such a hypothetical action is anti-Christian, yet this is what Paul and his followers did to the Jews. RK

To be precise: I'm just saying that the cited sentence does not give an account of what Paul is teaching and that somebody should come up with a better summary. -- Di Stroppo

An article on anti-semitism is not, I think, the place to detail a complex Christian theology. But for present purposes (i.e. citing some of the verses that illustrate this particular pointand have been used to legitimize and motivate anti-semitism), I'd think II Corinthians 5-10 and Galetians 2: 14-16 would suffice -- and Hebrews 8: 13: "In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." -- SR

You misunderstand the Christian believe. The New Testament doesn't say that Jews hung Jesus but the Pharisees. If today a president (let's take Mr. Bush though I've read he says of himself to be a born-again Christian) claims that he's fighting in the name of God or Jesus does he represent all of us Christians? He doesn't. The Pharisees weren't the Jews, they were only a group of them.

The next thing is that Christians believe that Isreal is really God's nation. After all Christians teach both, the Old and the New Testament. I cite a sentence of Jesus: "Let there be no thought that I have come to put an end to the law or the prophets. I have not come for destruction but to make complete." (Mathew 5, 17)

So the Old Testament holds up! So you may want to call that thelogical Anti-Semitism and the New Testament can certainely be used to legitimize Anti-Semitism but any Christian must (and should) be aware that Jews are God's people and must be treated as such, no matter if they accept Jesus as their Messiah or not.

Can I remind you all again that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia project, not a discussion forum? (It might help to see what Wikipedia is not.) This isn't the place to prove who's right and who's wrong. All that comparing points of view will help do is to discover what positions might need to be reported about, given that we're writing articles from the neutral point of view. --LMS

I would like to suggest we use the spelling "antisemitism" rather than "anti-Semitism". Not only is it easier to type (and I say it looks nicer too), but it is preferred by a several Jewish authors on the grounds that it discourages somewhat silly arguments like "Arabs are Semites too!", which although maybe etymologically correct don't fit with how the word is actually used. Comments? -- SJK

Which is the preferred spelling: anti-semitism or anti-Semitism? I think anti-Semitism is much more appropriate, but we have many examples of both.

It doesn't make much difference. I personally prefer anti-semitism because I like lowercase letters, but I wouldn't go out of my way to spell-check a whole article to make it conform.

Can someone provide a source for this?

According to Islamic law, all lands fall into one of only two possible legal categories (A) Land currently under Islamic control, and (B) Land once controlled by Muslims, that all Muslims worldwide are bound to re-conquer

Is this in the Quran? Is it commonly believed by Muslims? Is it a political doctrine? If so, which countries' governments advocate it?

If some countries advocate this view, perhaps it sheds light on the possibility (or impossibility) of peaceful co-existence with Israel in the Middle East.

Ed Poor, Thursday, June 6, 2002

As far as I understand the issue, basing on the Quran the Islamic faith generally divides the world into 2 parts: (1) dar al-Islam (dwelling of Islam) and (2) dar al-harb (dwelling of the sword, war). This vision is common, as far as I understand, to all branches of Islam, although for natural reasons, it is endorsed more thoroughly among the militant Islamists, in particular the Wahhabi division of Islam, which is predominant in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States (Bin-Laden belongs to this school), and the Shi'ite islam practiced in Iran (and endorsed by its proxy Hizballah).

Naturally, this view is also shared by the fundamentalist organizations (Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad) in the Palestinian Authority (and indeed to an extent, by any Muslim close enough to the religion). It takes only to attend to Arafat's own words comparing his Oslo Accords with the peace Muhammad made (and unilaterally broke) with the Kuraish tribe to understand the deep religious motives in the Arab hate towards Jews and Israel. --Uriyan

Ed Poor made changes, but I am restoring the previous version, and I would like to explain why:

Anti-semitism is most often defined as hatred toward people of Jewish ancestry.

Nope, anti-Semitism IS hatred towards Jews. The way this sentence was rewrote, it means that some people use the term anti-Semitism to mean hatred towards other groups. That's incorrect. It refers to hatred against Jews alone.

There is considerable debate over whether anti-Zionism is necessarily anti-semitic. Some advocates, such as Martin Luther King, Jr., join Zionists in saying yes. Other advocates, even some with warm and friendly feelings towards Jewish people and Israel, have disagreed.

There is little or no debate in the Jewish community. Even Europeans (who are much more anti-Semitic than Americans) admit that its probably wrong to say that Jews and Jews alone are forbidden from having a land of their own.

At one time, one might have applied the term anti-semitism to Arabs also.

That is incorrect. The term "anti-Semitism" NEVER EXISTED prior to its creation by a Jew-hater. This term was coined solely to describe the "scientific" hatred of Jews. It _never_ had anything to do with Arabs, Canadians, Japanese or Martians.

the term anti-semitism came to have the general connotation of "anti-Jewish".

No, the term didn't merely "come to mean" anti-Jewish. It was actually created to specifically mean anti-Jewish, and has always meant that.RK

There is little or no debate in the Jewish community. Even Europeans (who are much more anti-Semitic than Americans) admit that its probably wrong to say that Jews and Jews alone are forbidden from having a land of their own.

You yourself said that the Neturei Karta are anti-Zionist and Jewish. Whether you consider them anti-Semitic or not, that means that there is debate within the Jewish community. And, by the way, when you describe anti-Zionism as saying the Jews and Jews alone should have no land, you are assuming that everyone is in favor of racial or religious nation-states. One may also be anti-Zionist by being opposed to these in general, right?