Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Autobiography (Ashlee Simpson album)/archive1
All right, it's been a month since I last nominated this, and I've worked on it extensively. A great deal of information has been added—particularly on international chart positions; the info had been too U.S.-centric before—and I've worked hard to try to eliminate the positive slant that some people believed existed in the text, in addition to placing the album in better cultural context. Self-critically, I've decided that in November it probably wasn't quite up to featured standard, but now I think it's more or less there. The only information I'd like to have in the article that isn't already there is information that seems to be impossible to find in any of the available sources. Everyking 11:30, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Object. The coverage is improved, but the prose is still terrible. Ambi 12:17, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Well, maybe it is. I don't really think so...which parts are bad? The whole thing? I asked you to discuss this before, but you dropped it after a while, so I figured that meant you didn't have any more objections. Everyking 12:27, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I hate getting into spats with people, so I dropped it. That doesn't mean my objections have changed any. Ambi 23:14, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Well, maybe it is. I don't really think so...which parts are bad? The whole thing? I asked you to discuss this before, but you dropped it after a while, so I figured that meant you didn't have any more objections. Everyking 12:27, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Slight object. I don't see a problem with the prose, but I think the article is a bit too big and contains some fancruft. For example, do we need to know the album's position for every week it was on the charts? Do we need all that trivial information on promotion? The SNL incident could use some fleshing out too. It's not clear what the nature of the backing track was — a reader might think it was instrumental and wonder how people could accuse her of lip synching. That the article says she was accused of it seems a bit POV to me. I mean, suddenly vocals come on, and she's just holding the microphone at waist-level. There's no hard evidence she lip-synched, but that's almost certainly damning, and should be clarified. Johnleemk | Talk 13:25, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- It's not damning, because what she was doing was singing with a backing track—there's a distinction there, and we shouldn't blur our definitions. Anyway, the SNL incident isn't worth much space in an article about the album. It could have its own article—I'd rather it didn't, but OK—but it ought to be treated briefly here. The article does say vocal backing track, so I don't see why anybody would think it was instrumental. Anyway, I don't see how there's any fancruft in the article. The article is long, but I don't see how that can be avoided; there aren't many logical division points to break out content, aside from the singles. I tried doing so anyway with an article called "Autobiography album design" and it was unfavorably received on VfD. So I guess it will just have to be long. Everyking 13:36, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Perhaps what the exact problem with the track was could be elaborated. Either we tell the user what it was or provide some way for them to figure out what it was, or we don't. I think much of the promotion section should be trimmed. I'm sure Simpson's done a lot of things to promote the album; should we cover them all? Much of the stuff about the singles should be moved elsewhere, too. For example, their chart positions and promotion information. Johnleemk | Talk 16:57, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- All that stuff is already summarized, and more detailed in the singles articles. I think it's important to give an overview of the promotion and chart info in this article. Everyking 17:39, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- A separate article on music promotion, covering people like Don Kirshner, Joe Simpson and so on, would be a good place for that kind of material. There have been many successful pop albums over the years that were essentially soundtracks to popular TV shows, this is not new or notable in the instance of Autobiography. Reiterating, some of the Autobiography promotion information could be useful, but right now it's in the wrong place. (also, on the guide vocal thing, the distinction between that and lip syncing disappears once the performer's live voice is not included in the mix. That happened in both performances on the SNL episode in question, and this has been verified through analysis of the show and album recordings. I'm not on the bandwagon saying this event was unique or criminal, but there is no question that it was notable.) iMeowbot~Mw 18:08, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- We can't put that kind of detailed info in a general article on music promotion; are you kidding? The info is necessary in this article and integral to it. Where else am I going to explain that in September, as "Pieces of Me" was reaching its peak and being replaced by "Shadow" in the U.S., it was just getting its start in Europe? That kind of information is very important, and it fits perfectly in the "promotion" section. Anyway, Ashlee says she was singing with a backing track, not lip synching, and that was my point. Everyking 18:23, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Understood, that's why I wrote that some of that information could be used in another article. A great deal of it wouldn't make the cut, though perhaps it might find a good home in wikisource for a future article on the subject. Please understand that I'm not objecting to that level of detail being published anywhere, only to having so much raw data in an encyclopedia article. iMeowbot~Mw 19:11, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) (adding an example: the data could be used in a graph showing chart positions over time, with the timing of promotional events highlighted. That would make a nice illustration for an article on promotion. iMeowbot~Mw)
- I'll continue thinking of ways to make the text more concise, but there is no question of removing valuable information. At the very least it would have to be available in another article. Everyking 22:40, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Understood, that's why I wrote that some of that information could be used in another article. A great deal of it wouldn't make the cut, though perhaps it might find a good home in wikisource for a future article on the subject. Please understand that I'm not objecting to that level of detail being published anywhere, only to having so much raw data in an encyclopedia article. iMeowbot~Mw 19:11, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC) (adding an example: the data could be used in a graph showing chart positions over time, with the timing of promotional events highlighted. That would make a nice illustration for an article on promotion. iMeowbot~Mw)
- We can't put that kind of detailed info in a general article on music promotion; are you kidding? The info is necessary in this article and integral to it. Where else am I going to explain that in September, as "Pieces of Me" was reaching its peak and being replaced by "Shadow" in the U.S., it was just getting its start in Europe? That kind of information is very important, and it fits perfectly in the "promotion" section. Anyway, Ashlee says she was singing with a backing track, not lip synching, and that was my point. Everyking 18:23, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- A separate article on music promotion, covering people like Don Kirshner, Joe Simpson and so on, would be a good place for that kind of material. There have been many successful pop albums over the years that were essentially soundtracks to popular TV shows, this is not new or notable in the instance of Autobiography. Reiterating, some of the Autobiography promotion information could be useful, but right now it's in the wrong place. (also, on the guide vocal thing, the distinction between that and lip syncing disappears once the performer's live voice is not included in the mix. That happened in both performances on the SNL episode in question, and this has been verified through analysis of the show and album recordings. I'm not on the bandwagon saying this event was unique or criminal, but there is no question that it was notable.) iMeowbot~Mw 18:08, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- All that stuff is already summarized, and more detailed in the singles articles. I think it's important to give an overview of the promotion and chart info in this article. Everyking 17:39, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Perhaps what the exact problem with the track was could be elaborated. Either we tell the user what it was or provide some way for them to figure out what it was, or we don't. I think much of the promotion section should be trimmed. I'm sure Simpson's done a lot of things to promote the album; should we cover them all? Much of the stuff about the singles should be moved elsewhere, too. For example, their chart positions and promotion information. Johnleemk | Talk 16:57, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- It's not damning, because what she was doing was singing with a backing track—there's a distinction there, and we shouldn't blur our definitions. Anyway, the SNL incident isn't worth much space in an article about the album. It could have its own article—I'd rather it didn't, but OK—but it ought to be treated briefly here. The article does say vocal backing track, so I don't see why anybody would think it was instrumental. Anyway, I don't see how there's any fancruft in the article. The article is long, but I don't see how that can be avoided; there aren't many logical division points to break out content, aside from the singles. I tried doing so anyway with an article called "Autobiography album design" and it was unfavorably received on VfD. So I guess it will just have to be long. Everyking 13:36, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Object. As before, there are too many quotes, too many minute details which obscure overall meaning, and the article is too long. This is not improved since its last nomination - it's simply bigger. Rhobite 07:11, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
- Every quote has been considered and all that remain are supposed to support and enhance the information given. Any that were considered superfluous have been removed. And you're telling me the article would be better if I removed notable detail? What sort of alternate dimension am I stuck in? No other featured candidate gets this kind of treatment; plainly it's the result of bias against the subject matter. The article is long, but I've seen longer articles get through FAC—what am I supposed to do when creating subarticles isn't an option? Didn't you yourself vote to delete the subarticle I did create? Everyking 07:21, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Please stop trying to make this personal. I could've said many of these concerns myself. You state that every quote has been considered, but as far as I recall, you've removed about two (out of, say, thirty?). I'm a fan of Ashlee Simpson, and I have nothing against you - but I'll say it again - the article, as it stands, is poor, and Rhobite has explained why. Ambi 10:39, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- If I remove all the quotes, the article will be crap. The quotes serve to support and enhance the information given throughout. I myself wouldn't dare think this was featured quality if I removed them all, I'd oppose it myself in that instance. I've never seen such a demand during a FAC nomination before. It was my understanding that I was doing the right thing by citing by information whenever possible and trying to put it in NPOV terms. It seems like there's one expectation for other candidates—a nice, comprehensive degree of detail, thorough citing and quality English—and an entirely different expectation for Autobiography, which is supposed to be short and concise and lacking proper sourcing and attribution of claims and opinions. I don't know what you two want instead. Besides, I don't think the quotes are excessive at all. It's not a particularly quote-heavy article. If anything, I think it could use a few more at some of its weaker points. Everyking 11:30, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- The fact is that a lot of the article is simply trivia. Fancruft. Will anyone care that Ashlee Simpson appeared on The So-and-So Show to promote this album a few years from now? Try to write generally instead of specifically. I'm not saying you should obscure everything by not mentioning anything concrete, but the level of detail in the article is so minute that it's more worthy of publication in a magazine than an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia summarises facts. It doesn't dump raw facts onto the table and expect you to make sense of them. We don't need to know the album was at so-and-so position on the Canadian charts at a particular date. Also, a lot of the singles information in the article should be spun off to their own articles. Johnleemk | Talk 12:08, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- If I remove all the quotes, the article will be crap. The quotes serve to support and enhance the information given throughout. I myself wouldn't dare think this was featured quality if I removed them all, I'd oppose it myself in that instance. I've never seen such a demand during a FAC nomination before. It was my understanding that I was doing the right thing by citing by information whenever possible and trying to put it in NPOV terms. It seems like there's one expectation for other candidates—a nice, comprehensive degree of detail, thorough citing and quality English—and an entirely different expectation for Autobiography, which is supposed to be short and concise and lacking proper sourcing and attribution of claims and opinions. I don't know what you two want instead. Besides, I don't think the quotes are excessive at all. It's not a particularly quote-heavy article. If anything, I think it could use a few more at some of its weaker points. Everyking 11:30, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Please stop trying to make this personal. I could've said many of these concerns myself. You state that every quote has been considered, but as far as I recall, you've removed about two (out of, say, thirty?). I'm a fan of Ashlee Simpson, and I have nothing against you - but I'll say it again - the article, as it stands, is poor, and Rhobite has explained why. Ambi 10:39, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Every quote has been considered and all that remain are supposed to support and enhance the information given. Any that were considered superfluous have been removed. And you're telling me the article would be better if I removed notable detail? What sort of alternate dimension am I stuck in? No other featured candidate gets this kind of treatment; plainly it's the result of bias against the subject matter. The article is long, but I've seen longer articles get through FAC—what am I supposed to do when creating subarticles isn't an option? Didn't you yourself vote to delete the subarticle I did create? Everyking 07:21, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)