Talk:Bible translations

Would it run into copyright problems to try and put a representative verse (eg. Jn 3:16 or something) from different translations on here for comparison? Magnus 12:07 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

I think that's an excellent idea. Jn 3:16 would be an obvious choice, being such a widely known verse, and I'm sure it would fall within the permissions given within most Bibles (although it would be worth checking the introduction to each edition to be sure. --Basswulf 12:55 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

Regardless of what the introduction might say, quoting one verse should fall well within the terms of fair use under copyright law; there should be no problem with this at all. Wesley 13:06 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

I've added a table at the end of the English Christian Translations section and filled it in with the some of the versions mentioned in the text and the renderings of the verse that I could find in a quick online search.

Obviously there are gaps that need to be filled in - as well as completing this table, I would like to see it extended to cover all the verses mentioned in the previous text (and for translations to be worked into the text before being added to the table) as well as a similar tables added for the other sections of the page.

If it's felt that all the tables should be joined together, perhaps we need to spin off another page?

--Basswulf 14:27 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

That's certainly a good start, though I had in mind including the translations in different languages too (I can dig out the Welsh ones, and probably a few other languages as well). In that case it would probably be better to have the table at a different place - perhaps at the end of the article or even on a subpage. Magnus 15:18 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

I thought of having table at the end of the section for each language as that will keep them relatively small (although I can see 'English Christian' getting pretty large if someone decides to deal with it thoroughly!). How useful would it be to compare versions in different languages - especially bearing in mind that the more translations that are included in a single table, the harder it will be to compare between ones that are not next to each other?

Mind, being a functional monoglot, maybe I'm not best qualified to decided ;-)

Also, are there any external websites that might do the job for us?

--Basswulf 15:33 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

I suppose the practical advantages of having shorter tables might well outweigh the disadvantage of not being able to directly compare different languages. For languages with only one or two versions, a table is probably not necessary at all and the verse could be included within the text of the article.

I suspect there may well be websites with comparisons of different translations/languages available. I've certainly seen a similar thing in some Gideons' Bibles (in fact, that's where I got the idea from).

- Magnus 16:03 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

In the version of John 3:16 from the Geneva Bible, should 'u' be used in place of 'v' (eg. 'loued' rather than 'loved') or is this a result of the typesetting (like the medieval practise of using 'f' instead of 's' - fomewhat confufing if you try and reprefnt it in modern Englifh type!)? --Basswulf 14:51 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

I gaue þ^e text of þ^e Geneua Bible as it ∫tood in my fac∫imile copy. I al∫o haue a copy of þ^e King Iames Version þæt I could v∫e to giue þæt ver∫ion ∫omeþing of its original appearance; people are generally vnaware of how much þ^e "King Iames Bible" has been changed ∫ince it was originally publi∫hed. If wanted, þ^e ∫pelling and þ^e punctuation could be moderni∫ed --- þey are in my copy of Daniell's edition of þ^e Tyndale bible, which is þ^e only one I haue. -- IHCOYC 01:52 Apr 27, 2003 (UTC)

I think modern English typography would be better. I don't think that simulating the old style typesetting adds to the comparison of how different translations render our selected verses. However, it might be worth noting the older notation somewhere on the page (or, even better, linking across to a separate article that can explain it in a wider context). --Basswulf 11:43 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

I went and modernised the spelling in the Geneva Bible sections. I kept the punctuation the same, though, since the King James Bible is still in print and it, too, uses rather different punctuation practices from current. -- IHCOYC 00:16 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

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Um, did anyone notice that Jews don't accept the New Testament, and that it is not in the Hebrew (Jewish) Bible? There is no way that any Jewish translations of a verse can be included here, because there is no Jewish translation of the New Testament; its not in their Bible! So all Jewish translations are excluded from the current table. We should expand this table to include a few quotes from the Hebrew Bible as well. After all, even in Christianity the Hebrew Bible is most of their Bible. RK

Also, quoting just one sentence for comparison isn't nearly enough. For any given part of the Bible, I would suggest quoting at least two sentences. (And despire what any publisher claims inside the introduction to their Bible translation, such minimal quoting is well within fair-use doctrine. For our encyclopediac purposes, quoting full paragraphs is also within fair-use, even if a publisher claims otherwise.) I suggest quoting two consectuive sentences from Genesis, two consecutive sentences from one of the Prophetic works, as well as two consecutive sentences from the New Testament. RK

I can see us ending up with some pretty unwieldy tables - and if they're hard to use, how much use will they really be for any comparison. Maybe we should rely on external sites (found this one http://www.cob-net.org/compare_bibles.htm so far - only English Christian and very POV but quite comprehensive and with a well explained background)?

Which sections of Genesis and the Prophets would you suggest? --Basswulf 15:17 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

Good points, RK and Basswulf. I'd suggest that for the NT ones we use Jn 3:16-17 since we're already halfway there with some of the translations, and v16 is probably one of the best-known verses. For Genesis, how about taking Gen 1:1-2. My favourite pair of verses from the prophets is probably Hab 3:17-18, but we could perhaps go for something a bit less obscure.

On the other hand, it may be better to stick with a more limited set of tables (eg. just Jn 3:16 and Gen 1:1) here and link to external sites for more details. I think it's worth keeping something onsite. Magnus 15:21 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

I agree with RK completely. As for verses to translate, Gen 1:1 is a good choice because it is virtually always mistranslated. Still, I'd nominate Leviticus 9:18 and Deuteronomy 6:5. Slrubenstein

I also think the two table should be labled "Hebrew Bible/Old Testament" and "New Testabent" and -- can you blame me? -- the "old" testament should come before the "new " one? Slrubenstein

Certainly the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible, if you prefer) should come first. I only suggested Jn 3:16 as that was the verse used in the bible I mentioned earlier where I saw the list of languages used. Magnus 16:09 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

I realize the article is currently organized by alphabetical order -- fair, but arbitrary and consequently, prone to some confusion. Thus, I think the Greek and Latin translations should come first, since many other translations refer to them (e.g. the vulgate or septuagint).

I know strict chronology would be a mess.

I would suggest three major divisions: translations prior to the Reformation; translations during the Reformation and COunter-Reformation, and Modern Translations. The first two sections can be organized chronologically, and the third section, alphabetically. Slrubenstein

Interesting but the Reformation is an arbitrary choice for the Jewish translations, isn't it? (Enlightenment, maybe?) Rmhermen 17:39 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, the Enlightenment is a better marker for Jewish translations, but in my opinion only marginally in this instance; the fact is that the Reformation is appropriate -- you know, it was a European upheaval that affected a lot of Jews. More importantly, it established a trend towards tranlations into the vernacular -- a trend that affected Jews too. Also, some of the first Jewish translations in the vernacular, in German, were responding to Luther's translation. So I think it is a reasonabvle NPOV marker (but if RK or others strenuously object, I defer -- my main point is that there is a history here, not only to specific translations but to why people would want to translate the Bible, and why translations would have status. Slrubenstein

I'm not keen on chronological organisation. You could go by date of first issue... but becomes a mess because some translations have a much longer span of influence than others, eg. the King James Version, which is still going strong for many readers ("If English was good enough for St Paul, it's good enough for me!" ;-)

I'm in favour of keeping the existing organisational schema. Relationships between editions can be discussed in the blocks of text but I see the lists as an easy way for someone to track down a link to a specific translation. Once we've broken the page into sections for each distinct language, I don't see what we gain by attempting to use chronological order. --Basswulf 09:25 Apr 28, 2003 (UTC)

Uh, I am not sure you understand me. I am not saying to "use chronological order" after breaking the page into sections for each distinct language; I said to do it before. I am also not talking about different "editions," but translations. In fact, you seem to support my point, as you point out that the King James version is still going strong. It has had a wide influcence. That is why it should come first. But the people who made the KJ translation consulted the Latin and Greek translations, so don't you see why those should go before King James? Similarly, Everett Fox conjsulted Buber and Rosenzweig's German translation, so shouldn't their German translation go before his English translation?

Finally, as I said, the point is not just to catalogue different translations but to see emerging issues in theories of translation. It isn't just that specific translations of the Bible have histories; the idea of translation has a history. Slrubenstein

Yes, it makes sense to discuss the translations in this sort of history. For people who want or need only a quick link to a particular translation, I think we should keep the Genesis and John comparisons in alphabetical order... would that satisfy both needs? Wesley

I agree that as far as the tables of translations, alphabetical order makes the most sense. My suggestions really had to do only with the narrative structure of the article, not the tables. Slrubenstein