Talk:Substrate in Romanian

Of the list, the following words have meaning in Albanian:

buză - "lip" -> buza (same)
grumaz - "neck" -> gurmaz (throat, not an endearing term)
bucuros - "pleasant" -> bukurosh (beautiful child, boy)

Found it interesting, thought I would point those out. Dori | Talk 04:51, Dec 15, 2003 (UTC)

a speria - "to hope" or "to expect"

"a speria" it means "to scare", while "a spera" means "to hope" :) Bogdan 19:06, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

shpresoj means to hope in Albanian. Dori | Talk 04:16, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

'A Spera' is not a mystery term, it is from Latin (or from Dacian Latin). Cf. Classical Latin Sperare, Spero, 'to hope', 'expect'. Yet 'A Speria', is a totally different word, and IS a mystery term.(Decius)

17 Jan 2004 in two successive edits 195.92.67.78 removed all references to the Albanian language with the remark, "The similarities between the Dacian language and Albanian are totally inappropriate, and defeats the purpose of this entry. It is like comparing apples to oranges." I have restored this content. I am not sure what this anonymous user considers to be the "purpose of this entry", but I believe the place to take this up should be this talk page before removing significant and (to my mind) highly appropriate content.

It would seem to me that the existence of these words in a quite unrelated language other than Romanian and from a nearby part of the world would be quite relevant as evidence these words compose part of an ancient language of that region, quite possibly the Dacian language. That would seem to me to be precisely "the purpose of this entry." 195.92.67.78, could you please state your case to the contrary so I have a chance to respond? -- Jmabel 06:11, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The title of this article is misleading. It should be something like List of possible Dacian cognates to words in the Romanian language, or something like that. RickK 06:14, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm. Maybe. Or maybe just "list of possible Dacian words"? After all, the Dacian origin of these words in conjectural. But in any case, it seems to me that the article should be specifically about the relation of a possible Dacian to Romanian, but for the evidence for and against certain words being of Dacian origin, and consequently for the nature of the Dacian language, which makes Albanian cognates just as relevant as Romanian ones. -- Jmabel 06:43, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Rick has overlooked something very important: these words ARE ROMANIAN WORDS that may be and most likely are Dacian, and have been identified as Dacian by many scholars. They are not Dacian words being compared to Romanian words as 'cognates'.(Decius)

Russian squirrel

Actually, Bogdan, the mostly-Russian-language material you deleted, while ill-placed, was not irrelevant, so I'm moving it here to the talk page.

The same meaning "squirrel":

Vasmer's Etymological Dictionary :

ве́верица 1. "белка", 2. "горностай", др.-русск. вiве́риця, укр. вiве́риця, ви́вiрка, блр. вавёрка, болг. ве́верица, сербохорв. вjе̏верица, словен. vẹ́verica, чеш. veverka, veveřice, слвц. veverica, польск. wiewiórka. Родственно лит. voverė̃ "белка", диал. voverìs, vėverìs, также vaiverė, лтш. vãvere, др.-прусск. weware, кимр. gwywer, нов.-перс. varvarah, англос. ác-weorna "белка", др.-шв. ékorne; ср. также заимств. лат. viverra "хорек"; см. Зубатый, AfslPh 16, 418 и сл.; М. -- Э. 4, 512; Буга, РФВ 75, 153; Траутман, BSW 356; Вальде 846. Шпехт (KZ 62, 253 и сл.) видит здесь древнюю основу на -r. Эндзелин (Don. Natal. Schrijnen 402) связывает это слово с *ver- "гнуть" ввиду изогнутой формы хвоста зверька.

What it says, effectively, is that "veveriţă" exists identically in Russian, and it provides a quotation from a rather authoritative dictionary to back up the claim. It also points out a closely related words in quite a few other Slavic languages. None of this specifically means that the word is not of Dacian origin, but it does indicate that it is common in Slavic languages. My Russian is not good at all, and I cannot read much of what is there (in particular, I cannot tell what Vasmer's considers to be the origin of the word). Could someone with good Russian do us the courtesy of a translation. -- Jmabel 17:53, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)

The fact that 'veverica' is found in Slavic does not prove that the Romanian word 'veverita' is from slavic. Consider this: the English word 'Beaver' has a cognate in Slavic 'Bobr' (same animal): this does not mean that the English got their word from the Slavs, or vice versa. Or English 'Goose' & Slavic 'Gos'(same); or English Cat & Slavic 'Kot'(same);or English 'Mouse' & Slavic 'mys'; etc. Beyond animals, we have English 'Sister' & Slavic 'Sestra'; English 'Brother' & Slavic 'Bratr'; English 'Widow' & Slavic 'Vidova'; et cetera. So, is the Romanian word 'veverita' from Latin 'viverra'? from Slavonic 'veverica'? or from Dacian? That's what is being debated. I doubt the Slavonic derivation on several grounds: here are three: 1)the source may be Latin 'viverra' 2)the word is from a common IE form that may have also been present in Dacian; 3) my reference (The Dawn of Slavic, Alexander M. Schenker, Yale Language Series) does NOT list 'veverica' as a word dating to the proto-Slavic period, & his proto-slavic lexicon is extensive if not complete.(Decius)

Some I can't confirm

Where did these Albanian words come from? I've never heard of them, and my dictionary doesn't list them, but it could be that they're slightly misspelled, or regional, or not that common, etc:

căpuşă - "tick" (insect); Albanian "këpushë"
a se gudura - "to fawn"; Albanian "gudutis" -> though there is gudulis = to tickle
a hămesi - "to starve"; Albanian "hamis" -> though there is hamës = gluttonous
măgar - "donkey"; Albanian "magar" -> though there is gomar = donkey
mărar - "dill"; Albanian "mëraj", Greek "marathron"
măgură - "hill"; Albanian "magulë" -> hill is kodër
mătrăgună - "mountain laurel"; Albanian "matërgonë"
rânză - "gizzard", "stomach"; Albanian "rrëndës" -> rennet according to my dict, plëndës is stomach (as is stomak)

âmbure - "stone", "pit"; Albanian "sumbull" -> button, "thumbull" -> ?

ţarc - "fold", "pen"; Albanian "carc" -> ?, carac -> hackberry, "thark" -> pen, çark -> trap (as in mousetrap), qark -> round, around, circle
viezure - a wild forest animal like a ferret or marten (badger); Albanian "viedhullë"

Dori | Talk 04:10, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

Tungjatjeta. Did you check the references? I don't know where the Romanian dictionaries got the Albanian words from, I just quoted their suggested etymology. Maybe some are specific to the Gheg dialect or older words which are currently out of use.

Mentatus 18:00, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Me again. The DEX mentions that "rrëndës" means "rennet" in Albanian. "Badger" is actually "vjedull" in Albanian - DEX mentions it as "viedhullë". As for "magar", it may be the transformed form (through metathesis) of "gomar".

Mentatus 11:52, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yep, vjedull is a badger (which is close in pronunciation to the word viedhullë). Dori | Talk 13:22, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia or Wiktionary?

On a different note, we only need a few words to give a sampling, there is no need to put every word out there. Dori | Talk 23:11, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

I thought the idea of an encyclopedia was to give an exhaustive view on a certain subject (and Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia after all). Is it that bad if a complete list of all the (known) words in Romanian which may be of Dacian origin is included here? And may I ask who do you refer by "we" to? Others than "you" might need more than just "a few words". Cheers, Mentatus 06:44, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

We, the Wikipedia community, there is a separate project also by the Wikimedia foundation called Wiktionary, that handles this type of thing I believe. Wikipedia has a different scope, and adding more words is not adding anything to the article. That's what I meant. Dori | Talk 12:18, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Maybe you were elected to speak on behalf of the whole community and I didn't know. My apologies. It looks like some are more equal than others. But that's not the point. You can delete whatever you want - and others can decide what should belong to the article or not and whether they want an exhaustive list of Romanian words of Dacian origin or not. You're also free to "add" something to the article :) And by the way, if you cared to check, Wiktionary lists each word (and its translations in several languages) in a separate article, it's kind of difficult to group them together by a concept (such as common origin). Cheers, Mentatus 17:42, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Boy, you sure do get upset easily. I was just suggesting it, if I were more equal than others I would have just done it and said nothing. What I'm saying is that articles don't usually have long lists like this (unless they are a List of X). That would be an alternative, leave some here, create a List of X article, and say "For a more complete listing see blah". I am just trying to improve the article. Dori | Talk 22:58, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

My friend, this article is called "List of Dacian words", ain't it? What's the difference? And secondly, as I said before, we could start improving it without useless debates. Lange Rede, kurzer Sinn, as the French say :) Cheers, Mentatus 06:21, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bah, you know what I mean. The text separately from the long list. The list can stay here and the text somewhere else. The title itself is not what's important. All I'm saying is that the long list obscures the article (i.e. text) which is pretty small to begin with, but since the list wasn't that big, it was ok. Dori | Talk 12:31, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

What you were suggesting is already there: the article called Dacian language which points to the List of Dacian words. I'm really sorry for spoiling the artistic impression of the article. Hope it'll get a better mark for technical merit :) Ars longa, vita brevis, as the old Chinese used to say. Cheers, Mentatus 16:51, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

To which the Germans reply, "Chacun a son gout"? Dori, I think it's probably best that we develop this here, because Wikipedia gets so much more attention than Wiktionary. When the article matures, it may be best to move it to Wiktionary and end up focusing more on discussion and representative examples in Wikipedia, but if we just moved it to Wiktionary now, I think it would probably be neglected. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:51, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Cognates

'Veverita' may possibly be derived from Classical Latin 'Viverra', meaning 'ferret'. Though I personally beleive it's Dacian. By the way, Romanian Veverita, Latin Viverra, and Russian Veverica are from the same IE root: Wer-, meaning SQUIRREL, and my reference specifically lists Latin Viverra as deriving from this root. It is listed as a reduplicated expressive form. I advise everybody doing this type of research to reference many books, & don't confine yourself to internet resources. And I also advise people to be cautious about saying that this or that word is from this or that language based only on one cognate (Slavonic)ignoring others (Latin), & ignoring the possibility of common IE inheritance (Dacian). (Decius)

Another thing: MANY Romanian words commonly supposed to derive from Roman Latin or Slavic or Hungarian or whatever may in fact derive from Dacian. (Decius)

I wrote "in Classical Latin" for two reasons: 1)because it is from Classical Latin 2) because I'm suggesting that in vulgar, popular,or vernacular Latin Viverra may also have meant squirrel. And of course, there is the strong possibility that Dacian was a language on the Latin branch, and thus 'veverita' may have been the Dacian counterpart of 'viverra'.(Decius)

I'm not sure about this, but I think the english word itself, Ferret, derives from the same root: Wer-: Ver- : Fer-: Ferret. Ferret/Verret, having Ver- unduplicated and suffixed: Ver+ET. Hypothetical suffixes Ver+IT, Ver+ITA. Duplicated: Ve(r)+Ver+ita. So, there is a possible continuity from Veverita to Ferret. Again, this shows how common this IE form is. It wouldn't be a surprise if such a form existed in Dacian,which was IE, & that the Romanian word comes down directly from Dacian. (Decius)

I didn't mention this at first, but let me mention it: It is my personal opinion that 'ferret' derives from Wer-. I have seen no standard source say this. In my dictionary, the origin of 'ferret' is speculatively traced back to Classical Latin 'Fur' or 'Furis', meaning 'a thief'. But they arrive at this derivation by way of an unattested Vulgar Latin form, 'furritus'. It's possible. But I think I'm right and they're wrong. I bet that whoever came up with that derivation didn't even know about the Romanian and slavic words. I have many examples of dictionaries having false etymologies. I attribute this supposed derivation from Latin to the Latin-mania that gripped many English linguists in the past. They tried to derive even unlikely words from Latin. (Decius)

You may be right about the Ferret and Veveritza being cognates, but veveritza is clearly a Slavic word: you can find it in most Slavic languages (including Russian) and it even has an "-itza" suffix.

It cannot be an old Romanian word because of:

phonetics: intervowel "b"/"v" dissappear; see cabalus -> cal
morphology: I don't think I know any duplicated word in Romanian (excepting onomatopoeia)

BTW, an old Romanian word (fallen out of use) for veveritza is "sângeap". Maybe you should investigate this instead of veveritza. :) (but is probably derived from "blood"/"sânge" -- the colour of squirrels) Bogdan | Talk 11:27, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This should come as no surprise, but those two arguments don't convince me: first of all, I don't beleive Romanian Cal necessarily derives from Roman Caballus: Cal may be Dacian, Dacian being a Latin branch language. Veverita is probably also from Dacian, not from Viverra, so your sound-change need not apply. I also doubt it's from Slavonic. As for your second argument, you're wrong: we have the word Purpura/Purpuriu ('purple')which is duplicated but not onomatopoeia. We inherited the word 'purpura' from Latin, and it's not borrowed later. It's found in Classical Latin 'purpureus'. So, that's at least one example of duplication, & it only took me literally a minute to think of it. I can probably find more. Yes, here's another one: 'T(s)urt(s)ure' meaning 'icicle' (I don't have the fonts, 'T(s)' should be the Romanian 'Ts' letter). That is not onomatopoeia. It is a DUPLICATION of 'T(s)ur', which roughly meant 'a tube'. 'T(s)urt(s)ure' itself is most likely a Dacian word. (Decius)

The existence of the old Romanian word 'sangeap' does not prove that 'veverita' is a later borrowing from slavic. I beleive 'veverita' may also be an Old Romanian word and was already found in Dacian/Romanian before slavic contact.(Decius)

Fluire

I also added to Fluire the Latin cognate Flare. Here is the reference: Flo, Flare, Flavi, Flatum, to blow; intransitive, of winds, persons and instruments; transitive, to blow, to blow forth; to blow on an instrument; to cast metals, to coin.---If I am the first person on earth to notice this obvious cognate, I am amazed by the stupidity of everyone on earth. Again, I'm not saying the Romanian word is from the Roman word, I'm just pointing out an important cognate. It seems to me as if someone with an interest to overemphasize the Albanian cognates is underemphasizing the Latin cognates. Yet I think this is in fact due to ignorance rather than to some preconceived scheme. A parallel case is the development of the English word 'Flute', from a verb meaning 'to blow', if I remember correctly. Yes, my reference says the English word, via French, was most likely formed from the same Latin verb I mentioned: Flare. The IE root of 'Flare' is considered to be Bhle/Bhla-. Other roots to be considered:Bhlei;Bhleu;Pleu. (Decius)

Review

Just reveiwing the list, I see many more cognates, Latin & otherwise, that should be added. Of course, this article does not pretend to be comprehensive. To be comprehensive, it would first of all have to list all the other possible Dacian words in the Romanian language that have already been earmarked by scholars. But, with the words listed, many more cognates could be given. Don't depend on me because I don't like sharing information unless I get so annoyed that I have to, as in the case of Veverita & Fluire. If those "brilliant" authorities have not noticed the cognates, that shows how brilliant they are. (Decius)

Caraban

I couldn't resist: I'm going to discuss another possible cognate: ancient Greek 'Karabos' for Romanian 'Caraban'. Karabos, the stag-beetle, is mentioned in Aristotle. By the way, the word Scarabaeus (Scarab)is probably directly related to these words, but has an S- prefixed: S-caraban. So, even Scarab could be listed as a cognate. 'Karabos' in Greek fonts is spelled: Kappa,Alpha, Rho, Alpha, Beta, Omicron (not Omega), Sigma. The IE root for Romanian 'caraban', Albanian 'karabishte' and Ancient Greek 'karabos' should be: Gerebh, meaning 'to scratch': the English word 'Crab' is listed as deriving from this root. See the similarity: Carab/Crab, both creatures having roughly similar characteristics, especially in the eyes of ancient people who didn't classify animals the way we do. In the case of these words, 'Gerebh' became 'Karab' in the Balkan languages.(Decius)

Magar

I have not come across 'Magar' as an Albanian word in the dictionaries (incomplete)I referenced. Does anybody know a source for that reference. 'Gomar' I guess should be listed as a cognate, but it might not even be related. I don't think Magar is Gomar flipped around. Maybe Gomar is Magar flipped around. Why do I say that? Because so far my research leads me to the conclusion that Magar is as it is for a reason. In other words, the derivation from Gomar negates the true etymological sense. This is one of those words for which I won't list the cognate or derivation I have in mind yet because I'm still gathering notes on my idea. (Decius)

Interesting note: the word 'magar' entered the Bosnian language as 'magarac' (pronounced magaratz) with the same meaning. Yet it is obvious that the word is not native to Bosnian or any other slavic language. It entered Bosnian from an outside Balkan source at some time. (Decius)

Balaur

I beleive that the Phrygian word 'Balaios'(large, great) is cognate to 'Bala' & 'Balaur' because of the conceptual link: even now, we tend to say that something big is "monster-sized". This next cognate is so good that I didn't want to reveal it: the Classical Latin word 'Belua', which meant 'a beast, a large animal' and as a term of reproach it meant 'a monster, a brute, an animal'. AFAIK, I'm the first to connect 'Balaios' & 'Belua' to Romanian 'Bala' and 'Balaur'. Remember where you heard it first, from A.F.G., psuedonym Decius. Previously, linguists have cited Latin 'Balaena' (whale) as a cognate (but not the source) of the Romanian word. The Latin word 'Balaena' is considered to be from the IE root: Bhel-, meaning 'to swell' and also 'to blow'. From this word comes such words as the English 'bull' and 'ball'. What do I think about this? I agree that 'Balaur' and 'Balaena' may be kindred words from the IE root Bhel-.

*bhel is a very productive word. English 'blow', 'boil', boulder, balloon, 'phallus' (from greek) are derived from it, but also words such as 'bold'.

If so, the Albanian word 'bolle' (snake) should also derive from this root. But the situation might be more complicated. So far, Bhel- is the most likely root for 'Balaur'. I have another very good possible cognate for 'balaur' which I will discuss below. I'd like to point out that 'balaur' doesn't always mean 'dragon' specifically, but more generally, a monster.(Decius)

There is balenë/balena in Albanian for whale, no need to go to the snake.

Balenë is most likely derived from Italian/French/Latin, so it's not an original Albanian word. Bogdan | Talk 16:43, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't know where bollë/bolla comes from but there is also the word boll which means enough, plenty, sufficient, etc, *hint* *hint* :) By the way, could you please register/sign in? Dori | Talk 02:29, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I don't know what source the Albanian word 'bolle' meaning 'snake'was pulled from. I also don't know where the Albanian word 'magar' was taken from. I'd like to know myself. (Decius)

Most linguists assume that whenever they find a word in common between Latin and Albanian, the Albanians 'borrowed' the word.

Of course. It's because they, unlike you, understand how languages evolved and that is an almost impossible coincidence. evil grin Now, seriously talking, both Latin and Albanian developed from PIE, but suffered different sound changes. You can take a word from PIE, apply the Latin sound-changes and you should get a Latin words. The same thing about Albanian. If a IE word does not look to suffered Albanian sound changes, then it was borrowed at some time in the past, rather than be inherited from PIE. It's that simple. Bogdan | Talk 16:43, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think that in many cases it was not borrowing, but in fact that the words are similar because of what I call 'the Latino-Balkan language matrix' that existed in the ancient balkans, and explains many words in common between Romanian,Albanian, Latin, and Greek. (Decius)

OK. I'll tell you what happened. Latins romanized a part of the 'proto-Albanians' people (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians, whatever) and they got to develop their own language, which included some words from their old language, and was called 'Balkan Latin'. From this language, the proto-Albanians borrowed many words ("qytet" - city, "kal" - horse, etc). Somehow, the Balkan Latins and proto-Albanians are separated by distance and there we have today's Romanians and Albanians.

Any other theory does not cope with the facts and has no more credibility in the linguistics than the theory that GW Bush is a green reptilian alien has in political science. Bogdan | Talk 16:43, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that Albanian word 'boll' meaning 'plenty' 'enough' etc. should be from the same root. It seems hard to explain why/how 'bolle' (snake) would derive from Bhel-, so it might not. Yet, I can see how a word for 'snake' might derive from this root: though I have to use a profane example: the Greek word 'Phallos' is listed as deriving from this root, and even in ancient greek literature the snake is associated with the phallus. So, snakes were perhaps compared to 'swollen' phalluses, or vice versa.Though it must be remembered that many snakes are quite slender, so this interpretation applies more to large snakes. From 'snake' or 'large snake', it's not a big leap to 'dragon'. BTW, to use another profane example, the Romanian word 'pula' is probably from Bhel-.(Decius)

I've never heard the word magar in Albanian, and it's not in my dictionary. As to the second issue, modern Albanian borrows so many words from so many languages that people think it's a safe bet to say a word was borrowed from another language into Albanian rather than the other way around. Also, written Albanian is not very old so there isn't much proof to back anything up. I am not a linguist so I can't offer much of a professional opinion. Dori | Talk 03:02, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

Don't know what it means in Romanian, but in Albanian pulë/pula is simply chicken. Dori | Talk 02:18, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

In Romanian, 'pula'=phallus. It's a vulgar word. The Romanian equivalent for the Albanian word you just mentioned is 'pui'=chicken, chick, a young animal in general. The Classical Latin equivalent is 'pullus'=chicken, chick, a young animal in general. (Decius)

In my opinion, at this point, when I see a word in common between Latin & Albanian, I don't immediately assume that Albanians borrowed it from Latin, or that Latins borrowed it from Albanian. I note down the cognate and make judgments more carefully: in the case of Balaena, though, I think Albanians borrowed it from Latin (or from Dacian Latin or from a Romance language) speakers because: I beleive most early Albanians were inland people, and would most likely have borrowed the term for a whale. By the way, Romanians also have the word Balaena as Balena, 'whale'. Linguists assume that this Romanian word derives from Roman contact: yet if the Dacians spoke a Latin language, it might derive from the Dacians. Balaena is also found in Ancient Greek as phalaina: same meaning.(Decius)

Dacians

What I beleive about the Dacians: they spoke a language on the Latin branch, not proto-Albanian---but Romanians and Albanians have many common words because of long contact between Dacians, Thracians, and early Albanians. If someone would ask me who do I think are the ancestors of Albanians, and where they lived, at this I say: Albanians might be descended from the Paeonians, who lived north of Macedon and south of the Danube, adjacent to Thracians and Dacians. Why do I choose Paeonians rather than Illyrians? Because Paeonians were inland people, and Illyrians were near the coast.(Decius)

About the Phrygians: It's relevant that according to ancient writers, the Phrygians originated from the Balkans (specifically, they are beleived to be the original inhabitants of Macedonia, before the Macedonians invaded), and later migrated to Anatolia. (Decius)

Balta

I have found a Phrygian word 'Belte' that meant 'swamp'. Obviously, this is cognate to Romanian 'Balta'. There are more cognates for this Romanian word. There are cognates in Baltic and Slavic. Here are the Slavic cognates:the closest one (pretty much an exact cognate) is from 'Early Proto-Slavic', but my source does not say whether it is a hypothetical reconstructed word or an attested word: the word from 'Early Proto-Slavic' is: 'balta', meaning 'marsh', 'swamp'. Yet the word may be hypothetical. Here are some actual Slavic cognates, all meaning 'swamp, marsh': Russian 'boloto'; Polish 'bloto'; czech 'blato'; upper sorbian 'bloto'; serbo-croatian 'blato'; bulgarian 'blato'. As you can see, the Bulgarian and the Serbo-Croatian words are quite mutated from the original form. That's why I don't beleive the Romanian word is from Slavic. Also, because the Romanian word has a very close Albanian cognate. The existence of the Phrygian cognate shows that 'Balta' is an old Balkan word inherited from IE. I beleive the Romanian word is inherited from the Dacians.(Decius)

Gard

For the Romanian word 'gard' I added Phrygian 'gordium' (walled city). By the way, this Romanian word has a ton of cognates, and I might list more later. Actually, rather then clutter the article, I will list some of the other cognates of the Romanian word 'gard' right here, then give the IE root:Old English 'gyrdan' meant 'to gird', and indeed the modern English word 'gird' itself is a cognate, as is 'girdle' and 'girth'. Old Norse 'gjordh' meant 'girdle, girth'. Old English 'geard' meant 'an enclosure, garden, yard' and indeed the modern English words 'garden' and 'yard' are cognates from the same root. Old Norse 'gardhr' meant 'garden', 'yard'. You might be familiar with the Norse terms 'Asgard', 'midgard', etc.: the '-gard' at the end is from the same root. In other Scandinavian languages, 'Gardr' meant 'town'(cf. Holmgardr, holm+gardr, "Island Town"). We see the same movement in Phrygian where 'gordium' meant 'walled city'. The movement here was from 'fence,wall' to 'walled or fortified town'. In Classical Latin, 'hortus' is from this root. The Romanian word 'curte' is ultimately from this root. So is the English word 'court'. In Slavic, it mutated into 'grad'. In Baltic, I think it remained 'gard', because in Lithuanian we find the word 'gardas' meaning 'enclosure'. The root is also manifested in Iranian,and many other IE languages. The IE root of the Romanian word 'gard' and all these cognates listed above is 'Gher-', 'to grasp, enclose' with derivatives meaning 'enclosure'. I beleive the Romanian word 'gard' is from Dacian. The Romanian word 'zgarda' is also from this root, another word that I beleive is Dacian. The fact that in Romanian (and Albanian) we have both 'gard' and 'zgarda' proves that the words are native and are from an old balkan substratum. We have both the 'collar' (that girdles the neck) meaning and the 'fence' meaning, which are variations of the same idea of enclosure ( circular enclosure). In Phrygian & Scandinavian, the word developed from 'fence' to 'walled fortification/city' to 'town,city'. Many ancient cities used to be ENCIRCLED by walls.(Decius)

Ghimpe

I wasn't going to reveal this cognate, but it's so obvious I'm sure someone else has noticed it: if not, I'm worried about the field of linguistics: the ancient Greek word 'Gomphos' or 'Gomphios' meant 'tooth', 'peg', 'bolt' and is a direct ancient Balkan cognate to the Romanian word 'Ghimpe' and to the Albanian word. As usual, I'm not saying the Romanian or Albanian words "come from" ancient Greek, I'm just listing direct cognates. BTW, the Indo-European root is Gembh-, meaning 'tooth, nail'. It is also manifested in the English words 'Comb', and 'Kame'. 'Kame' is a rare English word meaning 'a small conical hill'. The Latin word 'Gemma' (bud, of a flower, plant)seems to derive from this root. Latin 'Gemma' is the source of the English word 'Gem'(jewel). Again, I don't have Greek fonts,but Gomphos would be spelled: Gamma, Omicron, Mu, Phi, Omicron, Sigma. (Decius)

I often get annoyed that 'professional' linguists don't notice such things: isn't that their job? Well, in this new internet age, well-researched 'laymen' may eventually put them out of business. Wikipedia is a great forum because it creates 'a group mind' or a think tank where 'laymen' and 'professionals' are on equal footing: content is what counts. If 'linguists' take a million years to do their research, we don't have to sit around and wait. (Decius)

Groapa/Gropa

The IE root of the Romanian word 'groapa' (and the Albanian word)is obvious: Ghrebh, 'to dig, bury, scratch'. The English word 'grave' (both as in a burial site and as in 'engrave')is derived from this root, as is Old English 'grafan', which meant 'to dig, engrave, scratch, carve'. Old High German 'graban' meant 'to dig'. Old English 'graef' meant a trench. The English word 'groove' is also from this source. Derivations are also found in Slavic: Old Church Slavonic: 'Greb*' (I don't have the font for *) meant 'to dig'; and here is a form from 'Late Proto-Slavic': 'grob*' meant 'grave'. Yet, I doubt the Romanian and Albanian words are from Slavic, because the morphology of the Romanian word 'groapa' looks like it came down from IE, not from mutating a slavic word. I beleive 'groapa' is a Dacian word. The IE root Ghrebh- and the IE root Gerebh-(see above)are kindred but are considered distinct.(Decius)

Proto-Romanian of "groapă" should be "gropa", from proto-Albanian *grop root, which was derived from the "O-grade form" of the root: *ghrobh.

Bhel-

For the sake of being more complete, I'm going to return to the root Bhel-. I'm going to list Classical Latin words that seem to derive from that root: Balaena; Belua; Beluosus (means 'full of monsters'; formed from 'belua'); Boletus (mushroom--bulbous mass that swells up from the earth); Bulbus (onion); Bulla (a round swelling; a bubble;a stud;an amulet); Buliatus (inflated, bombastic). There may be more. Some Romanian words that are or may be from that root: Balena; Bala?; Balaur?; P*la?; Balon (might be borrowed late); Bolovan ?; Bulb; Bulin ('pill'); and probably more, I'll check some other day. Some Albanian words that are or may be from that root: Boll (plenty, enough); Bolle? (snake); probably more. A Phrygian word perhaps from that root: Balaios; the Phrygian word 'bombalon'(penis) was no doubt influenced by the root, though prefixed by another form. Okay, that's enough for now. Looking through various Indo-European roots, I see that there are several roots that are kindred to Bhel- and have to be considered. I suppose all this info might be boring to some, but this isn't meant to be entertaining. 'Pullulo/Pullolare'('to shoot up, sprout, burgeon, luxuriate') is another Classical Latin word that's from Bhel-. Obviously, 'pullulo' is kindred to ****. (Decius)

Though it's a Phrygian word, 'Bombalon' (penis) has Romanian resonances. The first part of the word, 'Bomba' is obviously related to the Romanian (from French 'bombez'?) word 'Bomba' , meaning 'to swell out'. The second part may be an echo of the root Bhel-, also meaning 'to swell'. So Bombalon seems to be both stems run together, an example of redundancy that is used for emphasis. 'Bomba' may in fact be a Dacian word. It's interesting that even with the meager number of words listed on the Phrygian glossary, I've found so many cognates. No coincidence: Dacians and Phrygians were most likely neighbors in the early history of the Balkans. AFAIK, I'm the first person to publicly release information on the Romanian-Phrygian cognates.(Decius)

I've also gathered notes on the Romanian word 'Pizda', an important vulgar word that is also found in Russian (and other Slavic languages, though most dictionaries are silent). If I've identified the source of this word correctly, it may well go back to the ancient Balkans. They may be vulgar, but such words are still worth studying. 'Pizda' is the vulgar word for 'vagina'. In Macedo-Romanian (and sometimes in Moldava) 'Pizda' is 'Chizda'(in Romanian, 'Ch' is always hard 'K' sound). The phenomenon of P's changing to hard K sounds is a common trend in Romanian dialects. This is not true evidence for the idea that words such as 'apa' were once 'aqua': 'apa' is a Dacian word. The Thracian glossary lists 'apa' as a Thracian word meaning 'water'.(Decius)

One indication that 'pizda' is an old Balkan word is that it exists in Albanian as 'pidh'. (Decius)

The Romanian word 'Bulz' (a BALL of corn mush) and its Albanian counterpart probably derive from Bhel-. (Decius)

Note that bollë is not the only word for snake in Albanian, the most used word for snake is gjarpër Dori | Talk 14:19, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

As for my 'Latino-Balkan language matrix', the ancient Greek language is evidence for my idea (I can explain why), and I don't beleive the standard idea (which I already read about before---my idea is in fact a response to what I read) because, contrary to what linguists think, it does not explain everything. Linguists are still confused about the Balkan Linguistic Union---basically, my Latino-Balkan language matrix idea is that the Latin languages (including Dacian) went through an important part of their development adjacent to the Balkans if not in the Balkans, so that explains most of the Latin elements in Albanian, and vice versa. It's not some Atlantis theory. Also, the proximity of ancient proto-Latin speakers to ancient proto-Greeks explains the many common lexical elements between those languages---and I don't mean obviously borrowed words. So, to sum up: standard ideas don't always convince me. Linguists don't know as much as they think they know about how languages evolve. (Decius)

Matura

About the Romanian word 'Matura' ('broom', and also 'to sweep'):I don't think it's from slavic, but there is a cluster of words in Slavic that may be from the same IE source as the Romanian word: Late Proto-slavic 'Met-' was a verb that meant 'to sweep'(Metet,Mesti). I have an incomplete Bosnian dictionary, and the Bosnian word for 'broom' is 'Metla'. That's probably representative of the slavic form (?). So I don't think Matura is from slavic. Probably both stem from the same IE root. Matura may well be a Dacian word. Yet I suppose it's possible that there was some movement from hypothetical slavic 'met*la' (broom)to proto-Romanian 'met*ra'. I don't think this actually happened. Another possibility: Matura is not from the same IE root as the slavic words, but is from the IE root 'Mat-', meaning 'a tool': Classical Latin 'Matara/Mataris/Materis' (pike, lance),'Mateola' (rod, club, mallet) is from this root, and the hypothetical Vulgar Latin form listed is 'mattea'. Another possibility: this supposed "root" 'Mat-' is NOT AN ACTUAL ROOT. 'Matara' and 'Mateola' may IN FACT derive from the same IE root as the Latin words Materia (which also meant timber),Materio (meant 'to construct of wood'), and Materior (to fell wood): the IE root is 'Mater-'. So, the root 'Mat-' may be a pseudo-root concocted by certain "linguists". All those tools listed under 'Mat-' in my source are principally made of WOOD, and so are brooms (of course these days you can make brooms out of anything).So, the Romanian word 'Matura' either derives from the IE root Mater- (or the derivative "root" Mat-)or from the same IE root as the slavic words.(Decius)

That's an easy word: PIE root *met means "stir vigorously" and "-tură" is a common suffix in Romanian (see: acru - acritură, sec - secătură). Bogdan | Talk 11:06, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Alright, I tend to agree: my list of IE roots only lists roots that relate to the English language (it's still a lot of roots because English borrowed from practically all branches). My reference does not give the IE root of the slavic word, for instance. In my book, 'Met-' would have been listed alphabetically after 'Merk-' and before 'Meu-', but because apparently no English words derive from 'Met-', it is not listed. I need a complete list. I'll search the net. All the roots I'm referencing are listed under the heading 'Indo-European roots', which means I may need to find a list of Proto-IE roots---unless they're the same but the terminology has changed. By book is from 1969.(Decius)

Something important that I want to point out: '-tura' is also a relatively common suffix in Classical Latin, so if 'matura' is a Dacian word, and since it has such a suffix, again this is another indication that Dacian was a Latin language. (Decius)

Vatra

About the Romanian word 'Vatra': 'vatra' is also a Bosnian word for 'fire'. It's not the only Bosnian word for 'fire': 'plamen' and 'pozar' are other Bosnian words for fire. Obviously, Bosnians borrowed the word from neighboring Romanians or Albanians, or picked it up long ago from the previous inhabitants of Bosnia. 'Plamen' is also in Russian. My source says that the Late Proto-Slavic word for 'fire' was 'ogn*', cognate to Latin 'igni', et cetera.(Decius)

There were two PIE words for fire (one animated and one inanimated: you know that PIE had animated and inanimated nouns, instead of genders): *egnis (-> ignite, ogon) and *pa€wr (-> pyro, fire).

Vatra might be non-IE. Bogdan | Talk

Tare

I corrected 'Talem' to 'Talum', which is from 'Talus'(=ankle,anklebone, knucklebone, heel, a die/dice, because dice were originally made of anklebones). My source gives no IE root for the Classical Latin word 'Talus'. My opinion is that it is derived from the same root as the Ancient Greek word 'Tarsus' (heel, ankle)and the Classical Latin word 'Terra': Ters-, 'to dry', in other words, 'to harden'. If not from this root, then from the same root as the Classical Latin word 'Durus': Deru-, meaning 'to be firm, solid, steadfast'. The Romanian word 'Tare' probably derives from the IE root Ters-, or from Deru-. I do not beleive that the Romanian word 'Tare' was formed from 'Talus'. Though it's possible. I beleive the word is from Dacian Latin. In Roman Latin, the word came down as 'Talus'(anklebone, knucklebone). In Dacian Latin, the word came down as 'Tare' (hard,loud). That is my opinion. Dacian tended toward 'r' liquids, Roman towards 'l' liquids. (Decius)

Another Romanian word, T(s)ara, meaning 'land, country' is also from the IE root Ters-. It is considered to derive from Classical Latin 'terra.' Yet if Dacian was a Latin language, T(s)ara could be a native Dacian word. (Decius)

Broasca

I'm not familiar with every single word found in Classical Latin, but I have never come across 'brosca'. It's not in my book, and I also searched on online sources and nothing came up. Yet I see that DEX gives a reference that 'brosca' was a Latin word. Okay. It doesn't specify what period of Latin. It may be from Late Latin or Medieval Latin. If so, I want to find out, because it is relevant. I'll be back.

'Breshke*' can mean 'tortoise' or 'turtle' in Albanian. 'Breshke*' can be qualified to refer to various species of turtle or tortoise: for example, 'Breshke* Deti' means 'sea turtle'. The Albanian word for 'frog' is 'Bretkose*'. 'Bretkose*' can also mean 'toad'. The Romanian word 'Broasca' means 'frog' and can be applied to toads without qualification. 'Broasca T(s)estoasa' means 'tortoise' or 'turtle'.

It's interesting that in ancient Greek texts, 'Brekekekex' is a word used to imitate the croaking of frogs. Note that the word begins with Bre-, like the Albanian words 'Breshke*' and 'Bretkose*'. The Romanian and the Latin words also begin with Br-, 'Broasca', 'brosca'. Perhaps all of these words are imitative of the croaking of frogs. In that case, the original meaning of 'Broasca' and 'Breshke*' should have been 'frog' or 'toad', and only later applied to turtles & tortoises---they don't croak. Once again, as usual, thank <yours truly> for this research.>>(Decius)

Actually bretkosë (some say bretkocë) is frog, bretk is a male frog or a toad, thithëlopë (literally suck-cow) and zhabë are also words for toad, and bretk also means back (as in the posterior part of a body), but you're right that bretkosë is also used for toad. Breshkë is used for both tortoise and turtle, but there are also specifiers as in breshkë uji for freshwater turtle, and breshkë deti for sea turtle. Dori | Talk

In Romanian, "Tree frog" is brotac or broatec (< lat. brotachus) and "turtle" or "tortoise" is broasca ţestoasă ("hard headed frog").

"Broasca" is probably also cognate to Greek "batrakhos".

The Albanian "zhabë" could be of Slavic origin. Bogdan | Talk 09:40, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If 'bretk' also means 'back', then the situation is more complex. I wonder if the movement was from 'frog--->back, butt', or 'back,butt---> frog'. I'm not sure. In English, there is the expression 'tight like a frog's ass', so the movement might have been from frog--->posterior. Then again, the original meaning might have something to do with a turtle's shell (on the turtle's back)? It's complicated. I'll think about it. The old Greek word still leads me to beleive that the root was imitative of croaking. (Decius)

Yes, 'batrakhos' is probably related. Might Alb. 'zhabe' be related to Alb. 'zhapi' and to Romanian 'japit(s)a'? I'm not sure.(Decius)

Yes. And related to Polish żaba, Bosnian: žaba, Bulgarian: жаба, Slovak: žaba, Slovene: žaba, etc.

Zhabë is either slavic or russian, I don't know. There is also zhapik which is a small lizzard. Dori | [[User

talk:Dori|Talk]] 06:48, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but 'broasca t(s)estoasa' is more correctly translated as 'shelled frog' or 'hard-shelled frog' because 't(s)estoasa'/'t(s)estos' has some of the same meaning as Classical Latin 'testa' which meant 'a pot,a jug' and also 'any shell or covering' among other things. In vulgar Latin, yes, 'testa' came to mean 'head'. I prefer to translate it as 'shelled frog'. The Classical Latin word for 'tortoise' was 'testudo'. (Decius)

I've since found another ancient Greek word, Brauosa, that meant 'to croak' (of a frog or toad), so I would say it's 100% certain that 'Broasca', whether a Dacian word or not, comes from 'Bre-' which is a stem or root imitative of the croaking of frogs and toads. Decius 06:42, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Manz

For 'manz' I added two already noted cognates: Thracian 'mezenai' and Messapian 'manzana'. The Messapians occupied parts of southern Italy in Roman times. They are beleived to have been originally from Illyria/the Balkans. The Messapians spoke an IE language that has yet to be fully translated.

To return to Manz for a minute: now that I've revealed my real name, I'm going to be less secretive. Here is a word that may be another cognate to Romanian 'manz' (which means 'colt' or in other words, 'a young horse'): the word is Classical Latin 'Mannus', which meant 'a pony' or 'a thick set, stocky, short-legged horse'. It looks like a cognate to me. 'Mannulus' is another form. Now, a young horse is not the same thing as a small horse, but the meaning is close enough and so is the form. AFAIK, I'm the first person to note this. Despite the closeness, other considerations lead me to beleive that while this Latin word is a cognate, it is not the source of the Romanian word, which is more likely Dacian. Since this cognate is not established, I will not add it.(Decius)

I'm going to reveal more important data later. The big stuff comes last. I'm working my way up. (Decius)

Balaur/Bellerus

This next cognate for 'Balaur' is speculative, but I'm 99.99% certain I'm right. You might recall from Greek Mythology the story of Bellerophon who rode on the flying horse Pegasus and slew the monster Chimera. Well, it's well known that Bellero-phon means 'Slayer of Bellerus': what is uncertain is, who or what was Bellerus? Some stories say Bellerus was a tyrant. Other stories say Bellerus was his half-brother. Yet I beleive 'Bellerus' simply meant 'monster' in some early Balkan or Anatolian language or dialect. The Slaying of Chimera is usually set somewhere in Anatolia. So, Bellero-phon probably means 'Monster-Slayer', and the monster in question is Chimera, which was part dragon and spat fire like a dragon, though it didn't have wings. The story is usually set in Caria (in Anatolia), so 'Bellerus' might have been a Carian word, or a Phrygian word. So, if I'm right, Bellerus is perhaps the best cognate for the Romanian word 'Balaur' so far. AFAIK, I'm the first to make this connection. The IE root should still be *Bhel-. These kind of observations are hard to prove, but I'll let the public decide. Note that even IF 'Bellerus' referred to a human tyrant, the name may still have meant 'monster': the Latin word 'Belua' could also be applied to human beings as a term of reproach, and a cruel tyrant may well be remembered as 'Bellerus'.(Decius)

Bufnita

The source of 'Bufnita' is an imitative root, Buf-, which is found in the Romanian words 'Buf!' (bang!), 'A Bufni', 'Bufnitura', . In the case of 'Bufnita', it refers to the hooting of the owl. I know I'm right because the Classical Latin word for 'owl', 'Bubo', 'Bubonis', was formed from the same principle: 'Bubo' is kindred to the Romanian words 'A bubui', 'bubuit'. Also, the Classical Latin word for 'toad' was formed from the same principle, referring to the toad's croaking: 'Bufo', 'Bufonis'. 'Bubo' is kindred to 'A bubui'. 'Bufo' is kindred to 'A bufni'. Of course, the Albanian word 'Buf' is from this same source. These type of resonances between Romanian, Albanian, and Latin are evidence for my ideas about the ancient proto-Latins (including proto-Dacians) living adjacent to proto-Albanians. (Decius)

Besides 'Buf-' and 'Bub-', in Classical Latin there is also 'Boo', 'Booare', which meant 'to shout, roar, echo'. This imitative root is found in such English words as 'boom!'. In the case of 'Bufnita', 'Buf' is the old Balkan equivalent of 'hoot', though 'buf' was expressive of more types of sounds. (Decius)

If somebody wants to know what those Romanian words above mean that I didn't define, you can look them up. Note that 'Bufni' is used to signify not only 'bangs' & 'thuds'(in other words, deep violent sounds), but can also mean 'to burst out laughing'. 'Rabufni' means 'to break out', 'burst out'. Yet even in these meanings, the notion of sudden, violent sounds is present, so the meaning still hovers around sounds: whether deep sounds; violent sounds; croaks; or hoots; et cetera.(Decius)

I wrote this text before I received my copy of the DEX (about a week ago) and before I thought to reference the Online DEX, so I didn't realize that 'bufnita' is already known to derive from 'buf', which is known to be onomatopoeic: so I was right, but I wasn't the first in this case ( and I said the first 'AFAIK'). Yet no one else, AFAIK, has traced the relations and cognates of the word as I have, and I'll add more info along the way. Decius 12:21, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

On a related topic (see below) notice how close 'Rabufni' is in form and meaning to 'Izbucni'. 'Rabufni' is not from slavic, yet the standard idea is that 'izbucni' is from slavic: I reject the slavic derivation of 'izbucni'. Words such as 'rabufni' and other considerations lead me to beleive that 'izbucni' is native to Romanian. (Decius)

Bub,Buf,Buc

Buf- and Bub- are sound-imitative stems. This is true. Yet I will now show that they are also stems that denoted 'a swelling, a bursting, a breaking out' (though this has points of approach to the sound associated meanings). This is a big subject, and I'm going to leave out many examples.

In Romanian, we find: buba (a boo boo, a sore, a swelling); buc (in an instant, in a dash, in a flash, in other words in a sudden burst) buca (cheek); bucalat (chubby); bucium (bugle); bufni (in this case, meaning to burst out); buhait (swollen, puffy); buzna (to rush in or burst in); izbuc (a spring of water that intermittently erupts; a geyser); izbucni (to burst out, break out); pufni (a pufni in ris=to burst out laughing); rabufni (to break or burst out); zbucni (variant of izbucni); and others. If some of these words are considered 'slavic'(slavic languages are also IE) doesn't change the argument. 'Baban' (big, plump) is a mystery Romanian word (Dacian?) that probably comes from this Bub/Bab stem.

In Albanian, which I haven't reveiwed enough, we find 'bucko' (chubby/cheeks); bufe (cheek(s)), and no doubt many more. Notice that frogs/toads often puff out their cheeks (bufe) and that the Classical Latin word for 'toad' was 'Bufo'. So, 'Bufo' could have been imitative of croaking or a reference to swollen toad-cheeks: or both at the same time in some manner.

In Ancient Greek, which I have to review once again, we find 'boubon' which meant 'groin, a swollen gland'. No doubt many more examples.

So, I thought this was worth discussing because it relates to at least two words on the Dacian word list and also to several Romanian words of unknown origin.

'Izbucni' is generally considered a 'slavic borrowing' from bulgarian (see DEX), yet consider this: the stem of the word (buc-) is onomatopoeic and on the evidence of certain Latin words I beleive 'buc-' is a stem that was native both to Latin/Romanian AND to Slavic before contact.

In Russian as in Romanian, the stem is found as a word on its own, 'Buc' (I don't have cyrillic fonts, though I can read them, so I am representing the cyrillic letter 'X' (ch)with hard 'ch'), which is an interjection defined as 'smash, bang, dash'. 'Buch' is kindred to the Russian verbs 'Buchat*' and 'Buchnut*' which are defined as 'to throw with a clash; to bomb, pop, slap'. 'Buchnut' also means 'to swell, to dilate', and again this shows that the 'buc-' stem is both imitative of sounds (sudden sounds) and also denotes swelling, bursting, expanding, exploding. In Russian, so far as I've seen, the stem word 'Buch' is NOT prefixed by S-, Z-, or Iz-. In Romanian it IS found prefixed by both Z- and Iz-. In Bulgarian, it is also found prefixed by Iz-. 'Z-' is not an exclusively slavic prefix and neither is 'Iz' and both are native to Romanian.

In Bosnian, we find the word 'buchan' ( 'ch' as in english 'chat') which means 'noisy' and the word 'buka' which means 'noise'. So the 'buc-' stem is native to Romanian, Latin, and Slavic. 'Izbucni' is not necessarily derived from slavic. Decius 08:32, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bucuros

I untangled this word awhile back. I'm pretty sure I'm right about the derivation: it is related to a cluster of Classical Latin words, but I don't think it originates from Roman contact: it goes back to the Dacian Latins. First, I want to bring your attention to the fact that when people are 'Bucuros' ('happy'), they tend to smile: when a person smiles, his or her cheeks tend to bulge and puff out a bit. Okay: I now direct you to the Latin words I'm talking about: ' Bucca' meant, and I quote from my Cassel Latin Dictionary, "the cheek, especially WHEN PUFFED OUT"; 'Buccula' meant 'a small cheek'; 'Bucinum', 'trumpet';'Bucinator' meant a 'trumpeter': what happens when you play a trumpet? Your cheeks puff out. 'Bucina' meant 'a crooked trumpet or horn'. At first, one might think that my derivation is speculative: but think about it. You'll see that it's not only logical but very likely. Many other Latin words derive from this source.

There are more old Romanian words that come from the same root/stem Buc-, which I beleive meant 'to bulge, to puff out, to swell, to burst out': one such word may be 'Izbucni' which means 'to burst out', 'to break out (as in break out in flames)'.

words beginning with "izb-" are Slavic. DEX says that it's from Bulgarian "izbukna".

I disagree. And even if it's slavic, the IE root may still be Bheu-, the same root that 'Bucca' is from.(Decius)

'Bucălat' (chubby) is another word from 'Buc-'.

Yes, indeed, derived from Romanian "bucă". (cheek)

I didn't need to mention the obvious, but the Romanian word 'Buca' is from Buc-, just like its Latin counterpart. So is the word 'imbucatura', which means a 'mouthful'. I'm not sure, but the word 'bucata' (Latin buccata) may originally have meant a 'bite-sized piece', and should also derive from Buc-. Also, the word 'Bucium' (bugle, horn)derives from Buc-.

from Latin Bucinum = "trumpet".

The fact that 'Bucium' may be from Latin 'Bucinum' does not change the situation, because Latin 'Bucinum' would then be the word to consider, and it's still from the same source. (Decius)

AFIAK, I'm the first person to arrive at all the above conclusions. Alexandru F. Gheorghiu, aka, Decius. If anybody in the future argues these things, they got it from me. I don't want to sound egotistical. I want to make sure I get credit for what I discovered on my own.(Decius)

In Albanian, 'Bukurosh' has the meaning it has because 1)a smiling child with plump cheeks was considered beautiful, cute, or handsome. It would be interesting to see if there are other Albanian words that come from the stem 'Buc-'. They must be looked for. I've found another: 'Bucko' means chubby in Albanian.(Decius)

The form of the word 'Bucuros' may have been influenced by another word, found in Classical Latin and Ancient Greek: Bucerus (Latin) and Bou-Keros (Ancient Greek) meant 'having ox's horns' (Bu=bovine, Cerus=horn). I do not beleive the Romanian and Albanian words derive from these last two words, because my derivation from Buc- is more likely and makes much more sense. But in the popular imagination in ancient times, the words may have been connected in a folk etymology, because horned creatures (such as Satyrs) are often seen as jovial creatures. (Decius)

I think you're reaching a bit too far here. In Albanian, bukurosh comes from bukur which means beautiful. I have no idea where bukur comes from but I just don't see the plump, puff connection. I should also correct myself a bit. Bukurosh simply means beautiful or pretty (bukuroshe for female). It's just that you wouldn't usually call an adult bukurosh unless you meant it a bit sarcastically or something, as the "-sh" ending is a bit endearing, or meaning young, etc. Dori | Talk 07:04, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that even that word 'Bukur' may well come from this 'Buc-' source, because I beleive it originally signified beauty of the 'cherubic' sort: young girls, boys, 'rosy-cheeked', 'plump-cheeked' youth. Think about it. It's not far-fetched. I think I'm on the right track. Later, 'Bukur' came perhaps to mean a more general idea of 'beautiful'. I beleive there is an intrinsic reason why it properly applies to youths: I have given the reason. (Decius)

My derivation explains: why it means 'beautiful' (applied specifically to youth)in Albanian and why it means 'happy' in Romanian. It's a direct logical link, both deriving from the idea of 'cheekiness', basically. I don't mean cheeks 'puffed out' to an exaggerated degree. In Classical Latin, it went more in that direction. You could go in another direction and connect 'beautiful' and 'happy' from another angle, yes, but my angle embraces the Latin words and the other Romanian words---and I think they should be looked at together, because they resonate too much with each other.(Decius)

I'm putting my ideas on the table: now it's time to apply the microscope to them. I know of no other explanation that comes close to explaining these words and the words they resonate with. (Decius)

The Latin word 'Bucca' is according to authorities derived from the IE root *Bheu-, which means 'to swell, and appears in words related with the notion of swelling'. So, since I connect 'Bucuros' and 'Bukurosh' to 'Bucca', I propose that they also derive from *Bheu-.(Decius)

As for 'Izbucni' I disagree that the word is necessarily derived from slavic. And in any case, even if it's from slavic the meaning of the stem 'buc-' is the same in slavic as in Latin. I therefore connect 'izbucni' to 'buc-', a stem found in 'bucuros'. 'Izbucni' is not vital to my argument and can be removed from the argument, and the idea would still stand regardless, but I will not remove 'izbucni' from the argument.(Decius)

My derivation is: the Romanian word 'Bucur/Bucuros' and the Albanian word 'Bukur/Bukurosh' are kindred to Latin 'Bucca' (cheek), and the connecting thread is the cheeks themselves. These words derive from the IE root *Bheu-. That's the argument. I don't want other readers to be confused: so I defined my argument again. It makes great sense. You have not countered the argument itself. If this argument is accepted in the future, remember that I originated the derivation completely.(Decius)

In Classical texts, Cupid is often described using the adjective 'bucculatus', referring to his cheeks. See my discussion under 'Grappa' below. (Decius)

After some reflection, I'm 100% sure I'm right about my derivation of 'bucuros'.(Decius)

Rabda

This next derivation, I predict, will not be accepted at first, yet I am 100% certain it's correct. The source of 'Rabda/Rabdare' (to be patient, to wait, to endure, to suffer) is Dacian Latin. It has an equivalent, with a modified meaning, in Classical Latin. First, I propose that the older meaning of 'Rabda/Rabdare' was 'to take one's time, to be patient': before this, it may have meant 'to move slow/slow-moving': which brings me to the Classical Latin equivalent, 'Repto/Reptare', which meant 'slow-moving, creeping, crawling' and often was applied to reptiles, and indeed the word 'reptile' comes from 'repto'. I want to emphasize that I DO NOT beleive that the Romanian word developed from 'repto/reptare' by the process of Romanization. These words are both derived from proto-Latin: in Dacian Latin, it came down as 'Rabda/Rabdare', in Roman Latin, it came down as 'Repto/Reptare'. As the discoverer of this cognate and derivation, let me tell you that I'm sure that it's Dacian. Of course, my derivation will be challenged, and even if accepted, 'they' will say it's from Roman Latin. I know this will happen. Let me assure them ahead of time that they are wrong. Again, AFAIK, I am the first to propose this derivation, A. F. Gheorghiu. (Decius)

The conceptual movement is continuous from 'Rabdare' to 'Reptare'. I'm reminded of the fable of the Patient Tortoise and the hasty rabbit: the tortoise had 'Rabdare'=patience. (Decius)

It's an amusing coincidence that today's featured Wikipedia article was about a tortoise. It's amazing because I planned on revealing this cognate yesterday, before I knew about that article. Hmm. (Decius)

The IE root of the Classical Latin word 'Repto/Reptare' (and, I'm sure, of the Romanian word 'Rabda/Rabdare') is given to be 'Rep-', meaning 'to creep, slink, move slow'. I think in fact the root should be more like 'Reb-', same meaning.(Decius)

Comment

The fact that I'm arguing from the standpoint of the Dacian Latin theory will make most of my derivations 'unpopular' to the linguistic community. I don't give a damn. And in any case, the derivations may still be correct even if the Dacians did not speak a Latin language: the Latin connections I make would then be explained by Romanization: 'Rabdare' from 'Reptare', 'Bucur' from 'Bucca', et cetera. Yet I'm confident that the Dacians spoke a Latin language. (Decius)

Padure

This next word, 'Padure' ('forest'), unlike most of the others I've discussed, is not on the list, because it is considered to derive from the Latin word 'Paludis' (swamp)which is a form of 'Palus' (swamp). That derivation from 'Paludus' is a speculation, and it is incorrect.

There's no speculation involved: the latin word is "padule". Intervowel "l" is rhotacized (as in caelum -> cer; mola -> moara; etc) and there we have our Romanian word.

Contrary to what is beleived, the Vulgar Latin word 'padule' is not the same as the Classical Latin word 'paludis' and not from the same root. 'Paludis/Palus' derives from the root pel-, 'to fill', and referred to the moist quality of a marsh. 'Padule' derives from the same root as 'Padure': Ped-. 'Padulus' in Roman Latin referred to the ensnaring quality of a marsh, while in Dacian Latin 'Padure' implied the ensnaring quality of a forest. The standard derivation still cannot be proven, and I'm still right. 'Padulus' is not the same word as 'paludis': it refers to a different quality of a swamp. The Romanian word does not derive from either 'paludis' or 'padule'. The similarity is a case of parallel evolution between two Latin languages, Roman and Dacian, seperated by time and distance.(Decius)

The Romanian word indeed comes from a Latin source, but not from that word. The Romanian word comes from Dacian Latin.

Italian has this word too: "padule", with the original meaning. Bogdan | Talk 08:21, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, in Italian, it means 'swamp' as it did in Roman Latin. The Dacian Latin form referred to a forest. (Decius)

Observe: in Classical Latin we find the words 'Expedire'(to get out of a snare, disentangle) and 'Impedire', for which I will give the definition in my book: Impedire, 'To ensnare, entangle, obstruct, surround, hinder, prevent.' In Classical Latin, as far as I know, the form only exists with a prefix (Im-,Ex-)attached. Without a prefix, the word in Classical Latin would be 'Pedire' and I propose it could have been a noun, 'tangle, snare, obstruction', something that surrounds, something that hinders. I propose that the Romanian word comes from a Dacian Latin equivalent of this Roman Latin word 'Pedire', that was lost in classical Latin: the Dacian Latin equivalent is the Romanian word 'Padure'. A forest fits the definition quite well: especially the notorious Transylvanian forests of ancient Dacia. 'Padure' is a Latin word. But it's not from the Romans. It's from the Dacians. Remember who discovered this, A. F. Gheorghiu. (Decius)

Pedire -> (sound laws) -> Îm + pedi

The Albanian word 'Pyll' (forest)is also beleived to derive from 'Palus' but I think in fact the Albanian word is related more to the ancient Greek word 'Phylla' (leaves, branches, trees)and is not related to Latin 'Palus' or to Romanian 'Padure'. The true IE root of this Albanian word 'Pyll' is the same root as Ancient Greek 'Phylla': Bhel-, which meant 'to thrive, bloom.'(Decius)

The true IE root for the Romanian word 'Padure' is the same root as 'Impedire': Ped-. This is also the root of other Romanian words, such as 'impiedica'(related to the Latin word 'pedica'and also to 'impedire') and 'picior'. In 'impiedica', the 'pied-'is different in form from the 'pad-' in 'Padure' because of the way the words evolved seperately over time. After centuries, the original meaning of 'Padure' was forgotten. Till now. (Decius)

In Ancient Greek 'Poderes' meant 'to cover down to one's feet' and the word itself could mean 'a long robe'. 'Poderes Aspis' was a term for a large shield that went down to one's feet. This Ancient Greek word is more evidence for my derivation and is an example of an unprefixed form. The meaning again is similar to the Latin and Romanian words: something that covers, surrounds. This Ancient Greek word comes from the same IE root as Latin 'impedire'. (Decius)

The Albanian word is actually pyll (pl. pyje). Dori | Talk 03:13, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, I've fixed it. (Decius)

Another Comment

The mantle of 'authority' has much power to warp people's minds. Because certain 'authorities' have 'established' that Padure derives from Paludis, the average mind will recoil away from my idea and run back to their textbooks. That's too bad for them. The standard derivation is hogwash. They think it happened basically like this: paludis>padulis>paduris>padure, but they have no evidence. It is a mere supposition. If my derivation is a speculation, so is theirs. Time will show who is right. If tomorrow we find a Dacian inscription from 24 a.d. that says 'Padurea Neagra' in Greek letters, then the standard derivation will go out the window. I have given an alternative. If I say 'there is no real evidence that the Romanian word Padure developed from the late Vulgar Latin word Padule' I am saying the truth. I will be up in arms against any speculation that doesn't seem right.(Decius)

Brad

I beleive I have found the IE root of this word, or at least a very good candidate: bhar-, which meant 'a projection, bristle'. The Old Norse word 'braddr' (spike) comes from this root, and from the Norse word comes the English word 'brad' which means 'a tapered nail with a small head or a slight side projection instead of a head'. To me the connection is obvious: fir trees and PINE trees have pines, spikes, bristles instead of leaves. I doubt this is a coincidence. AFAIK, I'm the first to connect the Romanian word 'brad' and the Albanian word 'bredh' to this Indo-European root Bhar-.> (Decius)

Grapa

I'm going to give several cognates for the Romanian word 'Grapa' and the Albanian words 'Grep' and 'Gerepe'. If these are not true cognates, then I have a dragon's tail and the feet of an eagle. The words are a cluster of words from Ancient Greek, and I only need offer three to make my point: the first and best is 'Grupos' which meant 'hooked nose' or 'aquiline nose' or 'hooked' in general; the second is 'Grupaetos' which was a type of griffin (hooked beak); the third is 'Grupte' which meant bent or curved or wrinkled. The stem is Grup-. Obviously, these are old Balkan cognates. In these Greek words, just like in the Romanian and Albanian words, the idea is of hooked/curved objects. The forms are extremely close. All three languages are Balkan. And that's that. AFAIK, I'm the first to discover these cognates, A.F.G. once again. I'm going to add at least one of these ancient Greek cognates to the list. Once again, I'm not saying the Romanian and Albanian words are from Greek. I always repeat this because most people seem to be stuck in that mode of thinking.(Decius)

The Indo-European root for these words should be Ger-, which meant 'curving, crooked'. My book says nothing about the Greek or Romanian or Albanian words going under this root, but my book is only concerned with words relevant to english. Yet it's obvious these words belong under this root. All the examples in my book are words from Germanic languages and Romance languages with Germanic influence. Words such as Old Provencal 'grapa', meaning a hook (english 'grapple'). Yet I don't think the Romanian and Albanian words come from Germanic contact, or from French borrowings, or whatever. The existence of the form in Ancient Greek leads me to beleive that we are dealing with old Balkan words.(Decius)

The english word 'grape' is listed under this Ger- root, because hooks were used to harvest grapes. Sometimes, as in the case of 'grape', the source of a word is not obvious. The way I connected 'Bucuros' to 'Bucca' may not seem apparent, yet it's a logical progression. In certain Classical texts, Cupid is practically called 'Bucculatus' referring to his plump cheeks. This kind of progression led from plump cheeks>cute>pretty>handsome>beautiful in Albanian. In Romanian, it went plump cheeks>smiling>happy. Nothing far-fetched here, and I'm right.(Decius)

My derivation of 'Padure' is hard to prove, yet I may be right with that one too. (Decius)

Original

Decius, you do realise that original research cannot go into Wikipedia right? Dori | Talk 00:17, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

Well Dori, if that is so, then I'll abide by the rules.(Decius)

You can continue to have the discussions, it's just that you can't really make any use of them in the articles if it's just your research. Dori | Talk 02:36, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

Okay, you're referring to the cognates I added in the article. Alright. All of them come from my own research, except for (the list is now full AFAIK): Mezenai and Manzana for 'Manz' have already been established; Zgaver and Excavare for 'zgau' have already been established; 'Neperke' and 'Nepertke' for 'Naparca' have already been established. That's it. The new Dacian words I added to the list have all been cited as Dacian candidates already. I won't cross the line by putting words that I personally think are Dacian, because if I did that, I would have to put such Latin words as 'Apa', 'Cer', 'Soare'.(Decius)

The fact that good cognates will have to be removed shows: that many professional linguists are not professional; that more people need to do research on their own, instead of waiting for the academics to notice something.(Decius)

I removed the original cognates I added to the article. (Decius)

romanian "soare" from sanskrit "surya"

is there any study for any sanskrit words that have evolved into romanian words, are there any linguistic rules by which the sanskrit words evolved into romanian words ?

as i can see the romance languages have the following words for sun: latin:sol spanish:sol portuguese:sol italian:sol french:soleil romansch:sulegl romanian:soare

then danish:sol norwegian:sol swedish:sol

then russian:solntse bulgarian:slantse

then english:sun dutch:zonnig german:sonne

then sanskrit:surya

i understand there is this "rotacising" pattern by which latin "l" becomes romanian "r", but is there any study for this sanskrit "surya" that might have evolved into romanian "soare" and sanskrit "r" was preserved into romanian as "r" ? i ain't a linguist, that's why i'm asking this question Criztu 14:21, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Latin Sóle -> Sóre (rhotacisation) -> Soare (stressed vowel became a diphtong). There are hundreds of words that prove these rules: "Mola" -> "Moară" (mill); "Viola" -> "Vioară" (violin); etc.

Let's use the same sound changes on "surya"

Surya -> (y becomes e) -> Surea; which would obviously be feminine (o surea - două surele) Bogdan | Talk 19:17, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My opinion on this: the Romanian word 'Soare' did not develop in a continuous line from Latin 'Sol' or from Sanskrit 'Surya'. The Romanian word is from Dacian Latin, from the same Proto-Latin stem as 'sol' but went down another path. Dacian Latin tended toward 'r' liquids, Roman towards 'l' liquids, as I've said before. Decius 06:14, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In any event, is there any particular reason to think that (before modern times) any words came from Sanskrit to Romanian, rather than having common Indo-European roots? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:07, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

well, isn't Sanskrit an IE lang., the older sister of Latin ? Criztu 01:29, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There is no reason to go to Sanskrit for the direct source of the Romanian word Soare. The Romanian word comes from Dacian Latin, and is from the same IE root as Roman Latin word: Sawel-. In Dacian Latin, the 'l' became an 'r'. (Decius)

<brz> <zbr> <zdr> dacian patterns ?

a few more words:

bort(bortos) - et.nec., zburli(zbarli) - et.nec., burzului - from magyar, zapaci - et.nec., zbantui - et.nec., zvarli - scr. bulg., breaz - bulg., zgrabunta - et.nec., zdreli - et.nec., zadari - scr.bulg., zdrahon/zdragon - et.nec., zdravan - bulg. brustur - et.nec.

I don't know, i have this feeling that the dacians had these patterns <zbr> <brz> <zdr>, i'm thinking at Trajan's "inde Berzobim, de inde Aizi processimus" ... and the bulgarian Barzo for "quick/fast"

... and again the singularity of romanian:zbor/zbura amongst romance languages - latin:vol/volaticus italian:volo/volare french:vol/voler spanish:vuelo/volar portuguese:voo/voar for english:fly/flight

... even russian:letat bulgarian:letia/letene .... couldn't the romanian:pluti = 'to levitate' come from latin volaticus, instead of scr.:plut and bulg.:pluta ? Criztu 01:27, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Zbr- is native to Dacian, and so is Zdr-. Brz- may also be native to Dacian (the Thracian glossary lists a Brz word meaning 'quick') but note that it is also native to slavic, and is pan-slavic, meaning 'quick'.(Decius)

The Romanian word 'pluti' indeed has a Classical Latin equivalent, 'fluito', to float. Yet it has closer pan-slavic equivalents. The Latin and the slavic words are from the same IE source. 'Pluti' is definitely not from 'volaticus'.(Decius)

The Romanian word 'Pluti' has equivalents in most slavic languages. I've found equivalents of it in Russian for instance, though I don't have Cyrillic fonts to show the forms: one of them would be 'plot', which means 'raft' as in a floating raft, another is 'pl*t*', meaning 'to float'. 'Pluti' is probabaly from slavic. (Decius)

Fluture

My mentioning of the Latin word 'fluito' inevitably has brought me to another Dacian word I must now discuss (but not in detail): the Romanian word 'fluture' and its Albanian counterpart 'flutur' look to be from the same IE root as the Latin word 'fluito' and the English words 'to fly','fly'.

The IE root I'm speaking of is pleu-, meaning 'to flow' and also 'to float', 'to fly', et cetera. 'Fluturoj' means 'to fly' in Albanian. This Albanian word is not too far from Latin 'fluito', 'fluitare', which meant 'to flow from hither and tither, to float, swim, sail, move up and down, be tossed about'. Transferred, it meant 'to FLUTTER, to waver, to vacillate'. Need I mention that the English word 'flutter' is also from Pleu-.

So, the word 'fluture' should come from this root, which is a productive root. More specifically, the Romanian word 'fluture' and the Albanian words 'flutur' and 'fluturoj' are kindred to such Latin words as 'fluitare' and 'flutare'.(Decius)

In Albanian, flutur is butterfly, fluturoj is to fly, and fllad is breeze. Dori | Talk 13:56, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

Zbor

The DEX says that 'Zbor' and 'a Zbura' are derived from an UNATTESTED Roman latin word, 'exvolare'. The idea is this: Exvolare>Zvolare>Zbolare>Zborare>Zboare. That's possible, and indeed 'Z' is the Dacian equivalent of Roman Latin 'ex'.Yet the truth is the word 'Zbor' is not from Roman Latin, but from Dacian Latin. (Decius)

The Daco-Romanian word 'Zbor' is related in fact to the Classical Latin word 'Spirare' (breath, wind, spirit) and I propose both words come from the same proto-Latin stem, Zbir/Spir/Zbor/Spor, meaning 'breath, wind, spirit, to take wind, take flight, to speak'. In Romanian (all dialects), we have both 'spir' and 'zbir' manifested.(Decius)

It is noteworthy that the Classical Latin word 'spirare' HAS NOT BEEN traced to a known IE root, but is classed by itself in a preliminary psuedo-root in my book: "[spirare. To breathe. Latin word of unknown origin, with its derivative, 'spiritus', 'breath'." (Decius)

Of course, this is not a true IE root, and my book admits that. I will list IE roots that are relevant to my discussion: sper- (from which comes 'sparrow'); sper- (from which comes 'spore'); spergh- (from which comes 'to spring'); spreg- (from which comes the German word 'sprachen'). All of these roots and semi-roots are kindred roots and SHOULD BE related to Latin 'spirare' and Daco-Romanian 'zbor', but linguists have overlooked the possibility of connecting them. (Decius)

My derivation is better than the DEX explanation because it excellently explains why in Aromanian 'Zborla' means 'speech', while in Daco-Romanian 'Zbor' has the meaning of 'flight': the breath (Zbir/spir) is identified with speech, and by another semantic development, we have the idea of 'to take wind, take flight'. (Decius)

What's it mean in Romanian? In Albanian, that's what the obligated military service is called. Dori | Talk 03:44, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

In Daco-Romanian, 'a zbura' means 'to fly', 'in zbor' means 'in flight'. In Aromanian, 'zborla' means 'speech'. 'Zbureste' is the Aromanian equivalent of Daco-Romanian 'vorbeste'. I've seen 'azbuira' in an Aromanian text used for 'flight', so in Aromanian it means both 'speech' and 'flight'. (Decius)

The meaning it has in Albanian shows to me that the Albanian word in this case comes from slavic, because it has the same meaning in slavic languages. In no slavic language, AFAIK, does 'zbor' mean 'to fly'; in slavic, it generally means 'to gather, to meet' and variations on that idea. (Decius)

I, Alex. F. Gheorghiu, propose this original derivation of 'zbor'. If I'm right, DEX is wrong. Also, Olteanu's idea that the Aromanian word 'zborla' developed from the slavic word 'zbor'(to gather) is wrong. My idea explains both in one sweep, without having one derived "from Romanization" and another "from slavic contact". I have applied Occam's razor. They both derive from the same Dacian Latin source.(Decius)

As further proof for my theory, the Romanian word 'a Zburda' derives from these kindred roots: to SPRing, to leap, to SPORt, to frolick. The English words Spring, Sport, Sprout, et cetera, all come from this family of roots. (Decius)

Further proof for my derivation: the Romanian word 'Zbiera' means to yell, to roar. Remember the expression to scream at the top of your lungs? That's the meaning here: roaring at the top of your breath (Zbir/Spir). 'Zbiera' is said by DEX to derive from Latin *exbalare. I don't think so. The fact that such hypothetical forms can be constructed shows that Dacian was a Latin language.(Decius)

Note: not all Zb*r- words in Romanian derive from this meaning. Some are a case of Z- prefixing a different stem, but the ones I've discussed pertain to the roots I've mentioned. (Decius)

I beleive 'Zbor', though it comes from a proto-Latin root Zb*r-, which meant 'breath, wind' may have took on the form it has under the influence of another stem Or-, which meant 'to rise' , and is found in Latin 'orior' and 'oriens', which meant 'the east, where the sun rises'. The Latin word 'Aborior' means to fall. The Romanian word 'cobori' is from Dacian Latin, and the first part Cob- negates the stem 'ori', 'to rise'. 'Pog' and 'dob' also negate or-. The slavic word 'obori' whether it is slavic or not, comes from the same idea or reflex. In the word 'Zbor', zb- seems to function as an enhancing prefix to 'or', though I beleive it is not a true prefix and the word is not a compound, coming in fact from a Zb*r- root. The situation is similar to english 'Sprout' looking like english 'out', 'sprout out', though in fact they come from different roots. (Decius)

In an old Latin inscription, we find mention of a Thracian village named Zburulus, which was located in the Phillopolis district (Pulpudeva, modern Plovdiv). No one as yet has translated this toponym. Yet this shows that 'Zburu' was definitely found in Thracian. Decius 07:21, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

An interesting parallel: in Classical Latin, Orior, from the stem Or-, meant 'to rise (up into the air)', while 'Oro' meant 'to speak'. In Dacian Latin, we find 'A Zbura' meaning 'to fly' and 'Zbureste' meaning 'to speak'. The word 'Zbor' has nothing to do with 'volare' and nothing to do with any slavic word. (Decius)

Burta

I'm sure I've discovered the source of this word: it is Daco-Thracic. First, I will give you a parallel example of the semantic development: in Classical Latin, we find the word 'uterus' which as you know meant 'womb, belly'. Well, from this word developed the Classical Latin word 'Uter' which meant 'the skin of an animal used as a bag or bottle'. Okay, the same thing happened with 'burta': in Ancient Greek, the word 'bursa' means 'the skin stripped off of an animal, leather, hide'. From this word developed, in many languages, the word for a bag: English 'purse', italian 'bursa', et cetera. The Romanian word is from Daco-Thracic and has the oldest meaning: belly, womb; the Ancient Greek word was borrowed from Thracian and represents the next stage: skin; the modern words represent the last stage: leather bag. I am certain of this derivation and I, Alexandru F. Gheorghiu, am the discoverer. (Decius)

Before today, the source of the Ancient Greek word was a mystery, to quote my book: "Greek noun of unknown origin". I have found the origin: Thracian. (Decius)

The Greek noun was untraceable to any IE root. I may have found the IE root also. Wait a moment. I'm pretty sure the IE root is Bher-'to carry' (referring to a womb, not necessarily to a bag). The English word 'birth' is from this root.(Decius)

The Albanian word is also from this source, and might have been borrowed from Thracian.(Decius)

An IE root that is kindred to Bher- is Per-, also meaning 'to carry'. The Latin word 'portare' (to carry)comes from this word (see the similaity: porto-, burto-) and ultimately the Romanian word for 'wallet', 'portofel', comes from this root. But I think Bher- is the better root for 'burta'. (Decius)

so romanian:burduf -et.nec. =bag/sack, can be considered dacian too ? Criztu 00:00, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Exactly. (Decius)

bori, cobori, dobori

romanian:bori -et.nec. =to vomit, romanian:cobori -cf.pogori -unspecified orgin =to descend, romanian:dobori -conf.obori -sl.oboriti =to knock down, to bring down

can we make a List of Romanian words, that is, with no known origin/not found outside Romanian ? Criztu 11:25, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea.(Decius)

you can create it here: http://ro.wiktionary.org/ -- just remember to put a link on this page and on the page Romanian language. Bogdan | Talk 09:16, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Buza

This word has revealed something amazing, and I will get to it. First, I want to point out that I have found a definite cognate to the Romanian word 'Buza' and the Albanian word 'Buzë' in Ancient Greek: the word is 'Buzen', which meant 'close pressed, close, tight' and in usage often referred to two things pressed close or close to each other---like lips. The Romanian and New Greek word 'Buzunar' (pocket) is from the same idea---two flaps pressed close, tight. I wonder whether in fact the New Greek word is from Thracian---it could be, or it could be that the word was common to both Greeks and Thracians and Dacians. What I am certain of is that 'Buza' was a Thracian and Dacian word, because it is found in Thracian personal names such as 'Buzetius' (=Buzat,thick-lipped). Decebalus, on the Trajan column, is pictured with rather thick lips. (Decius)

In the Thracian glossary compiled by Duridanov, 'Buza' is listed as a Thracian word, but has been erroneously interpreted as meaning 'goat'---that is 100% wrong, and in fact Buza meant 'lip' and that mistranslated word proves nothing about Thracian being a satem language. That 'translation' is a pure speculation: literally all they did was compare the Thracian name Buzas to an Avestan word---and they think they've 'translated' it. No. I have translated it. (Decius)

Now, for something amazing: I have discovered why Byzantium was named Byzantium: recall that the 'Y' here is an ancient Greek 'Upsilon', the same Upsilon that is found in the word 'buzen': Buzantium was named so, not after any personage as later stories said, but in fact named so because of the close pressed strait of the Bosporus. I am certain of this, and I, Alexandru Florin Gheorghiu, have discovered this. (Decius)

We find this same meaning behind modern 'Buzau' in Romania, which is named after the Buzau pass. Also, the originally Istro-Romanian city of 'Buzet' in Istria is situated near a river pass, and was also named for this reason. I beleive there are other such examples from toponyms. (Decius)

So, I am certain, that 'Buza' was a Dacian/Thracian word. Byzantium (Byzantion is the Greek spelling)was founded by Greeks, the story goes, yes---but nowhere else in Ancient Greece, AFAIK, does the 'Buzen' idea occur in a toponym. So Byzantium may have been named so by Thracians, because Byzantium is in Thrace, and the area was once populated by Thracian tribes. (Decius)

Even words like 'Buza' can reveal something amazing. (Decius)

I want to emphasize once again that there is absolutely no proof that the Thracian and Dacian names 'Buzas', 'Buzetius', 'Buzat', et cetera, meant 'goat': that is an all-out speculation unsupported by a single shred of evidence, and this 'translation' is suspicious because it was chiefly proposed by Slavic researchers who sought to make Thracian a satem language and who also sought to connect Thracian to Baltic and slavic. So, 1) they have no evidence; 2) their motives are questionable.

On the other hand, my interpretation is supported by: the Romanian and Albanian word 'Buza' and the words and nicknames derived from it in Romanian language and culture, including names of places and cities; supported also by the fact that we find related words in ancient and modern Greek; supported even by the name of the city of Byzantium. I make the most logical connection by connecting the Thracian and Dacian names to BALKAN words that are ALREADY considered to derive from DACIAN, instead of to some 'avestan word' from halfway across the globe that has no real relevance. The Thracian and Dacian languages were Balkan languages: therefore I have made a Balkan connection. We will see who is being 'nationalist'. We will see who is applying true Science. Decius 05:53, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Speria

I connect this word, in a definite manner, not to Latin 'espavorare' but in fact to the ancient Greek word 'spiera' which meant 'to gasp' (gasp! as in gasping in fear, I beleive), and another Ancient Greek word that is said by linguists to be formed from the previous word: 'sparizo', which meant 'to jump, throb, palpitate' (when you scare somebody, their heart palpitates and they might jump). I am certain of this connection. I beleive the Romanian word is from Dacian, and is related to these ancient Greek words. (Decius)

Behind these words may be a Sp*r- root, meaning 'breath' (gasping breaths, perhaps scaring the wind out of someone, making the animus leap out, spurt out). (Decius)

Did these words enter Greek from Thracian? It's hard to tell. 'Sp*r' may in fact be not just a proto-Latin root, but an IE root. I found two more ancient Greek examples: 'spairo' meant 'to gasp', 'pant', 'quiver', and 'aspairo' meant 'to gasp' 'to struggle'.(Decius)

My proposal is made even more certain by the fact that 'frica', the Romanian word for 'fear', has already been linked to the ancient Greek word 'phrike', which meant 'shivering, shuddering'. 'Frica' is itself a Dacian word with a Greek cognate. It's also possible the Romanian words 'spaima/spaimos', of unknown origin and similar meaning and form, are connected to 'speria' and the ancient Greek words.(Decius)

frikë/a is also the Albanian word for fear. Dori | Talk 03:48, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

My derivation is certain, but just for fun I'm going to break down the 'Latin word' (there is no such Latin word, it is unattested) 'expavorare': the actual Classical Latin noun is 'pavor' or 'pavoris', which meant 'fear, panic' and 'trembling, quaking'. The verbs are 'paveo', 'pavere', 'pavi', to quake with fear; 'pavesco', 'pavescere', to begin to tremble, to become frightened; 'pavito', 'pavitere' to tremble; the adjective is 'pavidus', 'pavida', 'pavidum', which meant 'trembling, quaking'. The adverb is 'pavide', which meant 'fearfully'. The prefixed forms that actually are attested are: 'expavesco', 'expavescere', and 'expavi', which meant 'to become very frightened'. If somebody wants to fool themselves and derive it from these Latin words, they can go ahead and feel free. Decius 12:30, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Grumaz

I beleive this word may perhaps derive from an imitative root, Gru-, from which comes the Latin words 'grunnio' and 'grundio', 'to grunt' and the English word 'grunt' also comes from this root. This derivation makes sense concerning the Romanian meaning (throat, neck, from which come guttural sounds)and the fact that it 'is not endearing' to use this term in Albanian: because it refers to your neck as a source of grunts. The everyday word for 'neck' in Romanian is 'gat' which is the equivalent of the Latin word 'guttur' (throat, windpipe), from which comes the english word 'guttural'. 'Grumaz' is a more colorful term, and from my experience,among the people I know, is used rarely. (Decius)

A root akin to Gru- is Ghrem-, from which comes the English word 'grumble' and the Russian word 'grom' (thunder). It's hard to tell which root is better for 'grumaz', but it should be one of these two.(Decius)

Viezure

I'm not sure how I thought of this one, but I predicted a result, and that can't be a coincidence. First, remember that badgers have a white patch on their forehead. Well, I used this feature as my starting point: from there I progressed from white, to clear, to bright. I found a Latin word that corresponds exactly, which I'll mention later.

Then I looked for parallel examples, and I found them: in French, a badger is called a 'blaireau' referring to the white patch on the badger's forehead. 'Blair-' is from Germanic and is found in Dutch as 'Blaar' which means 'a white spot'. Also, in Ancient Greek 'Phalaros' meant a white spot and the word was applied to dogs with a white patch on their head, or to birds with such patches. Both Germanic 'Blar-' and Greek 'Phal-' are from the same IE root: Bhel-, meaning 'to shine, flash, shine white.'

Now, the Romanian word 'Viezure' and the Albanian word 'Vjedull' are not from that root, but the semantic development is the same, from another root. The words 'viezure' and 'vjedull' are related to the Latin word 'Videlicet', which meant 'clear, clearly seen, plain'. The words though did not develop from that word, but from a proto-Latin form that may have been *videllu or *videl, having the same meaning as Greek 'phalaros', a creature with a white patch on its head. It developed something like this: Videl<>Viedel<Viedul>Viezul<>Viezure. The semantic movement was 'clear'<>'white', from a proto-Latin root, and ultimately from the IE root: Weid-, meaning 'to see'. 'Finn', the Old Irish word for the color white is acknowledged to come from this root, so this root produces words meaning 'white'. I'm sure I've correctly deciphered this word but there is still a lot to clear up. There's still the problem for me of 'confirming' that it is from Dacian Latin: that's almost impossible to do, but my derivation suggests that it is so. (Decius)

This is not a forced connection. It came together in a flash. The Albanian form, morphologically, is an intermediary, but I don't beleive proto-albanians borrowed it from Romans then Dacians picked up from proto-Albanians. It happened in another way.(Decius)

This is one of those derivations that at first might not seem apparent, yet it is plain as day that all three words come from the same source. (Decius)

Brau

This is another word that has revealed something that I think is stunning. The word Brâu (in communist times it was spelled Briu with a ^ accent over the i )means 'girdle', 'belt', yet it also means 'a circular dance' like the hora: the ancient Greek equivalent was the Chorus, a Greek circular dance.

Now, here is the stunning possibility: the Greek word chorus comes from the root Gher- that I spoke of before, from which the Romanian word gard (fence) and the Old Norse word gardrr (town) come from. Also, the Romanian word zgarda (collar)comes from Gher-. This is the semantic cluster: general concept of circular enclosure<>girdle,collar><circular dance<>circular fence or circular walls<>walled city. I've shown that before.

The amazing thing is that we may have the SAME movement in the 'Brâu/Briu' cluster: general concept of circular enclosure<>girdle<>circular dance<......and possibly also <walled city>, because the Thracian word Bria, which meant 'city' or 'town', may be from this cluster. To outright say that this is a coincidence is to deny a strong, logical possibility. The Romanian and Albanian words are what have survived of a Daco-Thracic family of words that I beleive included the Thracian word 'Bria', which meant 'a walled city'.

This will raise many eyebrows, yet I am certain that I am right in connecting Romanian 'brâu' to Thracian 'bria' . The 'brâu/briu' cluster does not come from Gher-, but from another root that has the same meaning but a different form. I connect the Daco-Thracic 'brau/bria' forms to ancient Greek words such as 'Phrasso'; 'Phragma' which meant 'a fence,a protective enclosure'; 'Phraxis', which meant barricade; and 'Phren' which originally meant the diaphragm that engirdles the organs, and also meant the middle part of the body, just above the hips and below the chest; the word 'diaphragma' itself is an ancient Greek word that meant 'to totally surround' (dia=totally +phragma=surround). There are Romanian words that are a link between 'brâu' and 'phren': 'brâna' (a popular variant for 'brau'),'brânet' (dim.),'brânisor'(dim.), and the Aromanian word 'brân'.

These Greeks words show the same movement from girdle> to circular fence or wall or barricade or fortress. These ancient Greek words come from the same root as the 'brâu/bria' cluster, but in Greek, instead of Daco-Thracian 'Bra-' we have 'Phra' (Brau/*Phrau),(albanian 'Brezi' would be something like 'Phressi' which is very close to the attested Greek form 'Phrasso').

I am the first to propose that Romanian 'brâu' and Thracian 'bria' are from the same cluster. Yet I am not the first to connect 'brâu' and 'brân' to Greek 'phren': an established linguist made that connection, by the name of Olteanu. I am the first to propose the Thracian word 'Bria' as possibly from the same cluster. For a discussion of the word 'brâu' and its relation to those ancient Greek words, see Sorin Olteanu's article, A New Dimension of the Linguistic Relations between Romanian and Greek. I took the next logical step and included the Thracian word 'Bria'.(Decius)

I will add more information soon. (Decius)

In Thracian toponyms, -Bria is often preceded by -*m, such as in Messambria, and many others. I interpret this as an enhancing prefix that functioned the same way that the 'Im-' prefix functions in Romanian in such words as imbracat, and the way the M- prefix functions in such Albanian words as mbroj. That explains why we find so many '-*mbria' toponyms. In Greek, they had 'Dia-' prefixed to 'Phragma' to enhance the meaning of 'enclosure'. In Thracian, they prefixed '*m-' to 'Bria'. (Decius)

In fact, let me say that my interpretation is nearly proven or at least made very likely by these Albanian words: Mbreh, which means 'to put a belt on, harness', Mbroj, Mbroja, and Mbrojtur which mean 'to protect', just as I propose *MBria meant 'to surround' , 'to gird', 'to enclose', and 'to protect' and because of this we have the meaning 'walled city'. So, I am confident enough to say I have deciphered the meaning of the Thracian toponym suffix *Mbria. (Decius)

Actually the Albanian word for harnessing is mbreh. There are also the words mbret - king, mbretëri - kingdom, mbretëroj - to rule. Dori | Talk 04:51, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks: the spelling you gave me brings it even closer to *Mbria. I spelled it as I saw it spelled in Olteanu's article, from which I developed my theory. All of that is valuable information. I'm going to look for an Albanian dictionary in book form to make it easier for me to browse through the language.Decius 04:38, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ambracia

Perhaps some might think I'm going too far with this next datum I offer: yet I beleive I'm on the right track: the Latin word 'umbra' does not derive from the IE root 'andho-' but is in fact from the same root as 'Brau/Briu' and the Greek forms. 'Umbra' is in fact a compound word, having Um- prefixed to the stem -Bra, which is from the root I'm discussing and originally had the same meaning: to surround, enclose, cover. Here are some definitions of 'umbra' taken from a Latin dictionary: 'a shade, a shadow, a shady place, protection'. That last meaning 'protecton' is revealing.(Decius)

From 'umbra' was formed the Latin word 'umbraculum', which parallels the Romanian word 'imbracat' (having clothes on, being dressed)which was formed from 'bracatus'(meant 'having pants on') and prefixed by Im-. Umbraculum>umbra>um + bra. (Decius)

I beleive that the Thracian stem 'Bra' is related to the Latin stem 'Bra', found in 'umbra' and 'bracae'. 'Bracatus' is well-known to be a Classical Latin word. It does not originate from Germanics or Celts as is sometimes stated. 'Bracatus' is furthermore an ancient Latin word that was held in common between Romans, Thracians, and Dacians.(Decius)

There is, in the region of Greece known as Epirus, an ancient city built before the 6th century bc by the name of Ambracia. The major feature of this city and what principally remains of it is a massive circular wall that once enclosed the city. Many of the individual blocks are 1.5 meters high. It is beleived that most of the wall dates to the 4th century bc. Old coins bear the name of Ambracia in Greek letters. Now, what this reveals to me is that 'imbracat', 'umbraculum', and the Thracian '-embria' come from the same cluster of meaning. A city that was well-walled was 'imbracat', and the name of such towns often contained '-Embria' or 'Bria'. Ambracia may well have been a Thracian city originally. The men of Ambracia were known as Ambraciots.(Decius)

Here are some similar meanings: 'umbra' meant 'a shady place', and 'protection'. 'Embria', 'Ambria' and 'Umbria' by inference meant a walled city that encloses you, protects you. The 'Umbria' I refer to above is taken from the Thracian toponym Salumbria: Sal-Umbria. 'Umbria' was also the name of a part of ancient Italy and the region still bears the name.(Decius)

Linguists don't really know what IE root 'Bracatus' comes from. They assign it to a psuedo-root (as they admit): [brac, meaning 'trousers'. Many Northern European examples from this 'root' are given, so they think it was a northern european word. Actually, it was found as south as Greece, among the Thracians. (Decius)

Linguists also don't really know what root the ancient Greek word 'phren'( which I discussed) is from. My book says that it may be from, and I quote: "Ghwren-, to think. Doubtful root. Greek phren, the diaphragm, the midriff, the heart, also the mind." The book itself says 'doubtful root'. No other words from this 'root' are listed. I'm sure that this is not a real root. The fact that both 'bracatus' and 'phren', the two words I was considering,are both from doubtful roots make me more certain that I'm on the right track in linking both words perhaps to a new root Bra-/Phra-,which meant to enclose, to surround, to gird, to cover. Originally, 'phren' referred to the solar plexus, the diaphragm. Some cultures beleived this was the seat of the mind, so only later it came to mean 'mind' and came to be connected with thinking.(Decius)

Linguists speculate that the Greek word Phrasso/Phrassein (which I discussed) derives from Bhrekw-, 'to cram together', which they seem to beleive is a real root. Whatever the case, Phrasso/Phrassein/Phragma do not derive from this root. The words did not mean 'to cram together' as any Greek dictionary will tell you. They meant 'to enclose', and the root meaning is also 'to enclose'. 'Phren' is in fact from the same root as Phrassein. 'Phragma' contains 'Phrag-' which in Dacian and Thracian was and in Romanian is 'Brac-'. 'Phrassein' contains 'Phrassei' which in Albanian is 'Brezi'. (Decius)

More Latin words that derive from Bra/Phra-: Bractea (metal plating, metal leaf), Brattea, Bracteatus, et cetera. These words are listed as 'of obscure origin' and no root for them attempted, yet they are obviously related to Braccatus. Both mean to dress something, to add on to something: put gold plating on an object; put on pants, clothes, armor; build a defensive wall around a city. The old city of Ambracia reveals that Brac- was found in Thracian with the same meaning. (Decius)

Here is another Classical Latin word that derives from the same source: Imbrex, Imbrexicis, which meant a type of 'tile used for roofing.' The Italian word 'breccia' (a cemented rock)probably correctly comes from this source. The English word 'brick', of obscure origin, may derive from this source.(Decius)

More ancient Greek words from this root: 'phragden' meant 'fenced, armed': 'PHRAKtes' meant 'fenced, protected'; 'PHRAKteuo' meant 'to surround'. In Thracian, 'Phrak-' would be 'Brac-'. Prefixed, it would be 'Imbrac-' or 'Umbrac-' or 'Ambrac-': which brings us to Ambracia, the city that was totally surrounded by massive stone walls. It may well be that the Thracians spoke a language on the Latin branch.(Decius)

It is said that after the Trojan war, some Ambraciots founded a colony on an island off the coast of Dalmatia that came to be called 'Brattia'. This is the largest Dalmatian island and bears the highest mountain of any Adriatic island. It is a rather rugged island, though now it is also well-cultivated. An interesting thing that caught my eye is the name of the island, Brattia, which looks like the Latin word 'Brattea' that I've already linked to 'bracatus'. Brattea<>Bracatus<>Brattia<>Ambracia. There is a thread here. The island is now also called 'Brac', 'Brazza', et cetera. I seriously doubt that all these connections are coincidences. (Decius)

Bessapara

I connect the Thracian toponym suffix, -Parra/Para in a preliminary way to the Romanian words 'Apara' (defense), 'Perete' (wall)and to the Classical Latin words 'Paro/Parare/Paratus/Parate'(to get ready, to prepare, furnish,to equip), 'Pareis/Pareitis' (wall), 'Parietinae'(old walls, ruins). 'Para' most likely meant 'walls' or 'fortress'. This Latin connection is not outrageous, because there are other indications that the Thracian language was close to the Latin branch. 'Bessapara' then would have meant 'Fortress of the Bessi' or 'walled city of the Bessi'. A thing to keep in mind: in the Thracian glossary (which, though, has many erroneous translations)there are many Latin cognates, such as Lat.Nives/Thrac.Niva, Lat. Udus/Thrac. Utos. So I propose that Thracian 'Para' is cognate to the Romanian and Latin words. (Decius)

Another possibility: the Dacian term 'Tarabostes' is directly related to the Dacian-Romanian word 'taraboi', 'noise, uproar', because the men who 'raised uproars' were the ones who ruled by might, perhaps: 'Taraboshti'.(Decius)

I stated before that I don't trust that all Romanian words considered to be from hungarian are truly from hungarian. Well, for this next word, 'Boland/Bolund' (crazy, mad)the DEX says it is from hungarian, but I need more proof, because I know how erroneous these sources can be. I beleive it's possible that this word may be native to Romanian not hungarian and may in fact be a survival of the Thracian word 'Bolinthos' which we know meant 'wild bull or bison' because Aristotle specifically said that's what it meant. In Romanian, the word for bull, 'bou', also means 'moron, idiot, fool'. Well, a similar thing may have happened in the case of 'Bolinthos', the original meaning having been lost and only the slang meaning surviving. I'm going to look into this. If I find the word 'Boland' in Aromanian, that would be a good indication that I'm on the money. (Decius)

Molid

I'm certain I've deciphered this one. 'Molid' is the Romanian word for the Spruce Fir tree. 'Molike' is the Albanian word. The explanation is simple: spruce firs have SOFT wood, especially when compared to oak trees for instance. Spruce fir wood also burns up quickly, and is cheap firewood. Spruce, fir, and pine are categorized as 'softwood lumber'. (Decius)

The source of the word is the same source as the Latin word 'mollis', which meant 'soft, tender, pliant'. The Romanian word for 'soft' is 'moale'.The IE root is Mel-, meaning 'soft'.The amazing thing concerning this word is that apparently no one till now has thought of this. I beleive it is a Dacian word, and this shows that the Dacian word for 'soft' was practically the same as the Latin word. The evidence for the Dacian Latin theory is piling up and will soon tip the scales.(Decius)

The opposite of 'Molid' would be 'Solid'. (Decius)

Another Romanian word of unknown origin, Melc, 'snail', may also derive from the root Mel-. It refers to the softness of the snail (a snail is a mollusc and the word 'mollusc' originally meant soft) yet no doubt also to the SLOWNESS of the snail. We see the same connection between 'soft' and 'slow' in the Romanian word 'molcom' (slow, gentle). 'Molcom' is generally considered to derive from Bulgarian, but I haven't seen any proof of that. (Decius)

There is an ancient Greek word 'malakos' that meant 'soft, gentle'. This reveals to me that it is possible that 'molcom' as well as 'melc' may be old Balkanic words. Decius 08:05, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Copil

This word is Dacian, and it is definitely related to Latin words. In Late Latin, 'copia' meant a transcript, a reproduction, of an original. In Classical Latin, 'copula' meant a 'link, tie, connexion, bond'. 'Copiosa' meant 'fertile, abundant'. All these Latin words are acknowledged to be from the exclusively Latin stem, Cop-.

This cannot be a coincidence. In the meaning of these Latin words, we see how the meaning 'child', 'offspring' could have arisen from Dacian Latin stems that have counterparts in Roman Latin. I don't even need to explain the 'semantic development', it should be obvious. The only point of contention is whether these words developed from Dacian Latin or Roman Latin. I seriously doubt they would have developed from a 'proto-albanian' Dacian language, because cop- is an exclusively Latin stem.

The Albanian and Serbian words are borrowed from Dacian/Romanian with a changed meaning probably because: 'kopil' was perhaps a way of saying the child is a Vlach and not Albanian or Serb. An Albanian or Serbian woman had slept with an 'outsider' and the child was considered illegitimate. And vice versa. So the word is not originally albanian and not originally serbian. (Decius)

To try to derive 'copil' from a totally different source is definitely stretching things. I beleive this word means that: 1)either Dacian was a Latin language 2) or this word is not Dacian, it is from Romanization.(Decius)

Lupta

This word is considered to derive from the Roman Latin word Lucta, the 'c/k' sound changing to a 'p' sound, and linguists cite other such Romanian words as 'proof', when in fact that is not proof. I am quite sure that the word Lupta is not from Romanization, but native to the Dacians. I will show you why I beleive this.

LUPta and LUCta both derive in truth from the words 'Lup' and 'Luc', which meant 'wolf': 'Lup' means wolf in Romanian, 'Lupus' meant wolf in Roman Latin, and 'Lucos' meant wolf in ancient Greek. The Roman Latin form had the form 'Luc' within it. The Dacian/Romanian form has the form 'Lup', which is in fact the more Latin form of the two. The Romanian word 'Lupta' comes from Dacian Latin, and before that from proto-Latin.

That I'm right about this is shown by the ancient Greek word 'Lucca', which meant a berserk, wolf-like rage, and was ESPECIALLY used to describe the fury that posseses people in BATTLE. There is no reason to suppose 'Lupta' is from the Romans: it's from the Dacians. This is the correct etymology of 'Lupta' and 'Lucta'.

The 'k' sounds changed to 'p' sounds as Dacian Latin developed from proto-Latin. I have explanations for other such k>p changes in particular words,and I'll describe them soon.

The ancient Greek word is a stage in the semantic development from wolf>battle-fury> to battle itself. The wolf, as you remember, was the animal sacred to Mars, the god of war.(Decius)

Mare

I see the Dacian/Romanian word 'Mare' (big, large, grown up) as being related to the Roman Latin words 'Mas'/'Maris' as the article entry indicates. Yet I agree that the Romanian word did not develop from Roman contact, but is native Dacian. Words such as 'Mare' show that it is often difficult to say when a word is Dacian or Roman: if they were both on the Latin branch, the difficulty is understandable.

My book doesn't give an IE root for the Latin word 'Maris' yet it and the Romanian word may be from the root Me-, meaning 'big'.

In any case, this word is another good example of a Dacian word being close to Latin. (Decius)

Varza

If this is a Dacian word, then the Dacian word for 'green' was practically the same as the Latin word for 'green', viridis, and the Romanian word for 'green', verde. The word varza obviously derives from the pale green color of cabbage. The Dacian word for 'green' then would have been something like 'verde', or some such form. The Albanian words for 'green' have different forms. (Decius)

The word varse means chain (as in pendant) or coathanger, coming from the word to hang, me var. Dori | Talk 04:03, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, but 'Varza' is not related to that word, and I don't think that you think that either, you just wanted to mention a word that sounds similar. Albanian 'varse' and Romanian 'varza' are not related. Decius 04:32, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No I didn't mean that they are related. On words I mention here I don't mean to imply that I agree or disagree with something said about that word. I simply don't know enough about linguistics to have an opinion that is more than just a random guess. Dori | Talk 04:46, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

The names 'Verzo' and 'Verzulus' are found in ancient inscriptions in Dalmatia and Pannonia, and I will get more exact information on these instances. It is possible that the names derive from a Dacian word for 'green'. We lack the 'inside reference' to explain such a name. Yet it's likely the name meant 'young', 'fresh', 'virile'. My dictionary defines 'viridis' as meaning not only 'green', but also 'fresh, young, vigorous'.(Decius)

According to the Online Albanian dictionary, there are three Albanian words for 'green': 'gjelbërt', 'blertë', and 'jashil'. 'Gjelbërt' looks like the Latin word 'galbinus' that my dictionary defines as 'greenish-yellow'. The Romanian word for 'yellow' is 'galben', related to the Latin word. The Albanian word 'blertë' looks a bit like 'verde': blertë<>vlerte<>verte. Yet the Dacian word should have been more like 'verde' than 'blertë'. (Decius)

The words are: jeshil/e - green, gjelbërt and blertë are lighter shades of green. The word for yellow in Albanian is verdhë Dori | Talk 04:03, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks: all these Albanian spellings I took from the Online Dictionary, so I wrote them as they were spelled there. Decius 04:30, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Cioara

This word (and the Albanian word 'sorrë') most likey come from the IE root Ker-, which is defined as 'an echoing root, base of various derivatives indicating loud noise or birds'. The ancient Greek word 'korax' (raven) and the Latin word 'corvus' are already said to derive from this root. Notice how close 'korax'(raven) is to 'cioara' (crow) in form and meaning. The English word 'crow' is also acknowledged to come from this root. I'm pretty sure this is the root, and the similarity of Dacian 'cioara' to Albanian 'sorrë' doesn't prove that Dacian was close to Albanian any more than 'korax' proves that Dacian was close to ancient Greek. (Decius)

Actually sorrë is for rook and korb is for crow (bigger), but they are interchanged sometimes. Dori | Talk 04:08, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

In Romanian, corb means 'raven', just as in Latin, 'corvus' meant 'raven'. Decius 04:45, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This Page

Sometimes I wonder how many people are reading this page.Decius 00:53, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm reading, I just have nothing to contribute. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:20, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

I want to bring something up. I've probably said this a dozen times, but I haven't said it on this page: Duridanov's "Thracian glossary" is a piece of fantasy-fiction written by slavs for slavs and in the interest of slavs: the Thracian language was not even closely related to the Baltic languages, and definitely not related to the slavic languages. To decipher the Thracian language you have to turn to: Romanian, Albanian, Latin, and Greek. Then one can fish around in other IE languages. Decius 04:48, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'm on Winter break, so I might as well get back to business. What word should I choose next... Decius 06:22, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I read some of it, but you are writing so much that it's hard to keep up :) I would seriously suggest gathering all your thoughts and then publishing a paper. Dori | Talk 03:45, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Good suggestions, Dori. I should do that. Though it's fun to write on this page too, because it comes out more spontaneous sometimes. Also, here I can engage in bravado and taunts that are not appropriate in a more formal essay.Decius 04:22, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I want to second what Dori said here. The work you are doing here looks really good to me; even if you prove not to be right on some points, it'd provocative. You might do well to go back through some of what you've done and see if you can present it in a context aimed at linguists and see what they think. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:56, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

Skarke

This, and we know this because an ancient author specifically stated so, was a Thracian word for 'a coin'. I will tell you why this word is at it is: if you've ever scratched a few quarters against each other, you'll hear a metallic, rough, grating, SCRatching sound. A Romanian word for 'scratch' is 'SCARpin', and there is a common variant (that I prefer to the standard form, the 'c' here represents the 'k' sound) 'SCARCIN': and there we have our Thracian word.(Decius)

Another relevant Romanian word is 'Scârt', an onomatopoeic word that may be quite ancient. It is a word that imitates sharp sounds. (Decius)

If somebody thinks this is a ridiculous interpretation, I will bring to their attention that even the slavic researchers were thinking along these lines concerning this word, if I remember correctly: yet they probably brought a 'baltic' or 'slavic' word as a cognate instead of the most relevant and closest cognates: the Romanian words. Because the 11th century Strategikon mentions the Vlachs/Romanians as being descended from Dacians/Thracians, because it is the Romanian languages and the Albanian and Greek languages that have preserved Thracian words. The only slavic languages that have a good chance of having Thracian words are the south slavic languages. I beleive I am the first to correctly decipher this Thracian word and give the best cognates for it. Decius 06:41, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Another interesting thing: you'll remember that in IE languages the word for 'crab' or 'beetle' is often related to the verb 'scratch'. Well, there was an ancient Greek word 'KARKinos' that meant 'crab', and you'll remember that 'Carab-' also had an S- prefixed as 'Scarab-'. Well, prefix an S- to Karkinos and we get 'Skarkinos'. (Decius)

Once again my Thracian rule proves true: to decipher Thracian words, FIRST look for Romanian, Albanian, Greek, and Latin cognates. Decius 07:29, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Previous researchers have made a mess of the Thracian glossary. Romanian linguists will bring light to it. Decius 07:34, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A thing that is very misleading about Duridanov's glossary (perhaps unintentionally misleading, perhaps intentionally) is that Thracian words of definite meaning (because the meanings are given in ancient sources) are listed beside words THAT HAVE ONLY BEEN SPECULATIVELY INTERPRETED IN MODERN TIMES as having the meanings given: remember this each and every time you look at the 'Thracian glossary'. Ask yourself: how many of these meanings are interpretations? how many are definite? how many are mere speculations? If they are speculations, I will treat them as speculations---and I will translate them from another angle. That is science. Decius 08:30, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Zibelthourdos

In certain ancient texts, Zibelthourdos is said to be a Thracian storm god, a Thracian version of Zeus. Slavic researchers have tried to connect 'Zibel-' to a baltic word that has a similar sound, which in baltic means 'shining'. This is a conjecture, and it seems plausible---until you do some more research and find an even better translation, like I have.

I applied my own Thracian rule, and turned to ancient Greek to look for cognates: I found them, very excellent ones. First, let me state that the 'Zibel-' we are dealing with here is not one word: we are dealing with Zi-Belthourdos, a Thracian compound (a compound such as is not possible in Albanian). 'Zi' is already known to be a Thracian word for 'god', the Greek counterpart of which is 'Zeus', et cetera.

Now, that left me with the second element to decipher: Belthourdos, Beltourdos. I looked and I discovered this: in ancient Greek Bel- and Belt- is a stem which meant 'to throw, hurl' as a verb and as a noun meant 'a missile, an arrow, A BOLT (thunderbolt)' and is found in such words as 'beltos'/'bletos' (stricken), 'beltikon/bletikon', and 'beles'. 'Beles' meant 'a misslie, a dart, a thunderbolt' and in certain ancient Greek texts we find the phrase 'Zenos BELE', which means 'the thunderbolts of Zeus'. Zi-Belthurdos meant roughly: god (Zi) of the thunderbolts (Belthourdos) or god who hurls thunderbolts. I am certain of this, and I, A.F. Gheorghiu, have discovered this.

I am correct, and so the slavic researchers are once again wrong, and their 'baltic cognate' is immediately hurled out the window and must be discarded. This compound (one of many Thracian compounds) also makes it unlikely that Thracian was a proto-Albanian language. While it proves nothing about Thracian being a language on the Latin branch, it doesn't disprove anything about the possible semi-Latin character of Thracian. It shows that Greek influence was strong in the Thracian language and that we can expect other cognates between Thracian and Greek. Greek influence is also strong in the southern Vlach languages. Decius 01:51, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So, 'zibel'/'zbel' cannot be said to be 'a word'. We are dealing with a compound name, Zi-Beltourdos. We have two words here: Zi (in Romanian 'Zeu') and 'Belt-', which meant 'thunderbolt'. The final suffix is interesting, and I'll get to it soon. The suffix determines how the name is to be read and translated. The 'baltic cognate' is cute, but it's not a true cognate and it has no relevance. On the basis of their erroneous tranlation, they 'discovered' two 'thracian words': 'zibel' meaning 'to shine' and 'thurdos', meaning 'to crash'. There were no such Thracian words, and the only thing that has 'crashed' is their 'translation' and the credibility of their glossary.(Decius)

Here are more Greek words from this source: the stem Bel/Belt- is related to 'Ballo', which meant 'to throw', and 'Bolos', that also meant 'to throw'. 'Bolis' ( like 'bele') meant 'a missile, an arrow, meteor' and also 'a javelin'. 'Bolidion' is a diminutive of 'Bolis' and also meant 'javelin'. 'Aktino-bolia' meant 'shooting or hurling rays'. 'Aktino-boleo' meant 'to emit rays'. 'Bolus' is also found in Latin with the same meaning. In the same way, 'Bele', though a Greek word, has an equivalent in Thracian: which may have been a language on the Latin branch. Thracian may have been a Latin-type language with Greek influence and proto-Albanian influence.(Decius)

Added Dalta

I've seen scholarly sources list this word as a possible Dacian word. The case of 'dalta' (chisel) exactly parallels the case of 'balta'. The slavic equivalent of Romanian 'dalta' has the form 'dlato' (in Bulgarian for instance), just as the south slavic equivalent of 'balta' has the form 'blato'. These two words to me are an example of: words that came down from IE and were native to both Romanians and slavs before contact. The Romanian forms 'balta' and 'dalta' are acknowledged to be much closer to the root form than the slavic forms. And just as 'balta' in Russian is 'boloto', so is 'dalta' found in Russian as 'doloto': in Russian, which is an east slavic language, such words get stretched out: in south slavic languages like Bulgarian they get contracted: b'lato, d'lato. Decius 00:04, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

We find the same word with the same meaning in Albanian: 'daltë'. The fact that it is found in Romanian and Albanian, and the fact that the Romanian and Albanian forms have 'dalt-', which is an older form than the slavic forms, clinches the case that 'dalta' is an old Balkan word that was used before the slavic arrival. Whether the slavs picked it up later or whether it's also native to them, I'll let someone else decide. Decius 05:03, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Daltë is the indefinite form and dalta is the definite (as well as plural) form. I've added Ëë to the list of special characters (see below the 'Save page' button when you edit). Dori | Talk 06:06, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)

Baga

I have a derivation for this word, and I now beleive it is completely certain: I connect 'baga' (to stick in, to put in) to the 'vag-' stem found in the Classical Latin word vagina, which meant 'scabbard' (in which you stick your sword), 'sheath', 'case', and also 'husk of grain'. I'm not sure if back then it had the meaning it has now, but in slang it probably did even back then.

The basic meaning is of something that covers, something that receives something that is put in or stuck in. There is an old Spanish word 'baga' that meant 'husk'. I beleive it is quite possible that it could also have existed as a verb that complemented the noun, a verb that meant 'to put in, to stick in'. This verb was found in Dacian and is still found in Romanian: Baga.

The English word 'bag' (as in 'a bag of groceries') and the Old Norse word 'baggi' are of obscure origin: I connect them to 'vagina' and 'baga'. There is another Romanian word of unknown origin that I connect to 'vagina': the word is vagauna which means 'a deep gully, a deep cave or hole in a mountain, a tight or dark place'. 'Vagauna' itself may be a Dacian word. This shows that the vag- stem that is found in Latin is also found in Dacian/Romanian. Linguists assign the vag- in 'vagina' to the IE root 'Wag-', which means 'sheath, cover'. If I'm right, Wag- is the root of 'baga' and also of 'vagauna' and probably of English 'bag'. Decius 06:15, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Looking though ancient Greek, I found a rare word bagei that is defined as meaning 'to go in or into, to enter' just like the Romanian word bagate means 'go in, enter in'. Not much is known about this word found in ancient Greek. It is not assigned to any root or any family of Greek words. I want to find out how many times it occurs in ancient Greek texts: if it's found only once or only a handful of times, then it's probably from Thracian. I assign this 'Greek' word to the same IE root wag-, unless I discover otherwise. The much more common word with the same meaning in ancient Greek is 'eiselthousai'. 'Eiselthousai' comes from a large family of Greek words and is Greek. 'Bagei' is isolated and may be Thracian. Decius 07:40, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have found a parallel case of such a verb complementing such a noun: the English word scabbard is derived from an old Germanic form, sker-berg (sker=sword, berg=sheath). The noun 'berg-'(sheath) in 'scabbard' is from the IE root 'bergh-'. From this same root comes the English VERB bury (to put in the soil, to stick in the earth): the Old English form of 'bury' was 'byrgan'. 'Vagina' also meant 'scabbard'. 'Vagina' is a Latin noun from the IE root 'Wag-'. 'Baga' means to 'put in, stick in' and is a Dacian/Romanian verb that is also from the IE root wag-. Case closed. Decius 00:12, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Purumerulas

This is an epithet of a chthonic deity worshipped by the Thracians. Researchers have connected the 'Pur-' in the beginning of the name to the Greek word 'Puros', that meant 'maize, corn'. Yes, they are connected. Yet there is an even closer cognate: the Romanian word Porumb, that has the same meaning. I connect Thracian 'Purum-' to Romanian 'Porumb'. The 'U' in 'Purum-' is an ancient Greek upsilon, and the sound of the vowel varied somewhat. The rest of the name '-erulas' is simply a suffix. The equivalent Latin word here is 'palumbus'. Decius 09:13, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The previous interpretation is wrong. On the basis of their speculative interpretation (puru-mer) they 'discovered' two 'Thracian words': 'Pur', meaning 'corn' and 'Mer' meaning 'great'. Well, that interpretation is wrong, and there were no such words to be exact. The Thracian word for 'corn', as I extract it from this epithet, was something like 'Purum' or 'Purumb' or even 'Porumb' in some dialects. I added the 'b' because, though it is absent in the epithet, it may have been present in the actual word because in languages such as ancient Greek a 'B' was often added to an 'M' to create a fuller, more shapely sound.

As for 'Mer', there was no such Thracian word. Though they may have had the word 'Mare' (great, big) that is found in Romanian and is considered to be from Dacian. And you'll remember that this word is close to the Latin word 'maris'. Decius 09:28, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Another Romanian word Porumbel (pigeon) is known to be formed from 'porumb', and this shows a suffix in action: porumbel> porumber> purumber> purumer> purumerulas. Of course, I'm not saying the epithet meant 'pigeon', I'm just showing how the suffix could have developed from 'purum(b)'. From 'Porumbel' is formed 'Porumbelu'> porumbelul> porumberul> purumberul> purumerul>. Which brings us to 'Purumerulas', a god of corn. The epithet contains ONE Thracian word (purum=corn) plus a suffix.(Decius)

If my interpretation is 'colored by Romanian nationalism', well keep in mind that the previous interpretation was colored by slavic researchers who interpreted 'Purumer-' as 'puru-mer-' because: 1) they wanted to establish a connection to the slavic element '-mir' found in 'vladimir', so they conjured up a Thracian word "mer" and put it on their glossary---and the only basis for all this hullabaloo was a speculative interpretation of this Thracian epithet. In fact, at the forefront of the fellows who fervently sponsored this translation was a bulgarian named Vladimir Georgiev. That is the kind of 'scientists' I am up against. And that is why I am not worried about a thing. Decius 09:52, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ivan Duridanov's "Thracian glossary" is a work of fiction, and should only be read for entertainment purposes. That kind of "science" might have been acceptable in Soviet times, but it doesn't slide by anymore.Decius 09:55, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Naparca

This is a word that I personally added to the Dacian word list, to make a point.

The Romanian word napârca and the Albanian word neperkë are both almost certainly derived from the Romanian (not Bulgarian) word napârli which means 'to shed or slough off the skin or hair or feathers'. Lizards and snakes shed their skin. The word napârli in turn derives from 'ne-par' or 'without hair'. The Romanian word for 'hair' is par, which is known to be a Latin word. The Latin word pilus meant 'hair' and is related to the Latin word pellis, which means 'skin', and is found in Romanian as piele. A parallel case is the Romanian word natarau which was formed from 'ne-tare'.

Napârli cannot be a slavic word because 'par' is not the slavic word for hair. While slavs also have the negative prefix 'ne', the word par is not native to them because it is a Latin word. So Napârli is 100% a native Romanian word, and DEX is once again 100% wrong. In Russian, such a word as napârli is not given in my Complete Russian Dictionary, and if somebody finds it listed, it probably entered recently from outside. 'Par' in Russian means 'steam' and is a totally different word. 'Para' in Russian means 'pair' and 'Ne-parn*i*' means 'without a match, equal, or partner'. 'Ni' is another negative prefix in Russian, and there is nothing there that matches either. The Russian word for 'hair' is 'volos' and the Czech word is 'vlas'. The pan-slavic word for 'skin' is 'koza'(koja).Decius 06:04, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So, my point is that Napârca, whether a Dacian word or not, is certainly a Romanian word and almost certainly of Latin derivation. I beleive it is Dacian, and the Dacians spoke a Latin language. Napârli is also a native Romanian word of definitely Latin derivation. Many other Dacian words can be broken down into Latin roots.

This also shows how untrustworthy and erroneous the etymologies given in the DEX can be. The DEX should only be used as a reference, not as the last word, because the field of Balkan linguistics is still being revised. Decius 05:50, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Just as a curiosity, I want to mention that a similar sounding yet totally different word napârstoc (thimble) is indeed from slavic, because 'Na' in slavic means 'on' (pe) and 'perst*' means 'finger' (deget)= pe deget, on the finger= thimble. The native Romanian word for 'thimble' is degetar.(Decius)

Vapaie

I think it is safe to say that Romanian vapaie (flame) and Albanian vapë (heat) come from the same source as the Latin word vapor (altern. vapos)which meant 'vapor, steam, warm exhalation, warmth, heat'. The Latin verb vaporare meant 'to steam, reek' and transitive meant 'to fill with vapor, to heat, warm'. The stem is 'vap-', which probably meant 'heat, warmth' and from there developed 'fire' in Dacian Latin and 'steam' in Roman Latin. In Albanian, it means 'heat'.

Linguists assign the Latin word 'vapor' (and the stem vap-) to the IE root 'Kwep-', which is said to mean 'to smoke, cook, move violently, be agitated emotionally'. Though kwep- is an IE root, 'vap-', the stem that developed from this root, is found so far as I know only in Latin, Romanian, and Albanian, and the Albanian word may have been picked up from speakers of a Latin language. Decius 04:19, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is yet another example of a Dacian word that is very Latin in nature, and I will further multiply the examples. Decius 04:19, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Romanian word zvapaie(to become agitated, zany, mischeivous) is known to be formed from 'vapaie', and zvapaie perfectly fits the definition of agitated movement and emotions, so my derivation is 100% certain. Decius 06:26, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I suppose it's possible abur and avull come from the root Kwep-, yet they may well be from another root. If 'abur' is from 'kwep-', then the initial consonant was dropped and the word developed as 'apor', 'apur', 'abur'. Maybe. Compare 'apor' to Latin 'vapor'. Perhaps the initial consonant was dropped under the influence of the word apa, because vapor develops from heated water. 'Apa' by the way is acknowledged to be a Thracian word for 'water' and most likely also the Dacian word for 'water'. It's possible that 'abur' developed directly from 'apa' in ancient times, and if so the root of 'abur' would be the root of 'apa': the IE root 'akwa-', which meant 'water'.Decius 04:33, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If Dacian was a Latin language, and if the Dacian word for water was 'apa', then the IE root of the Dacian word would be 'akwa-', as I say above, the 'k' sound becoming a 'p' sound. 'Akwa' is the root of Latin 'aqua' and Romanian 'apa'. Others beleive Thracian was a satem language and that the Thracian word 'apa' developed from the satem root 'ap-', which also meant 'water'. I disagree. And besides, there is a third possibilty: both of these 'roots' should actually be combined in one root. Decius 05:01, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Some connections

I spoke before of how I beleive the old Latin languages (Romanian/Dacian, Latin, Umbrian, etc.) went through a major part of their development in the Balkans alongside Albanian and Greek. I spoke of words that are very close cognates, yet cannot simply be explained by late borrowing or by the primal Indo-European kinship, yet indicate a more localized kinship after the primal stage yet before the Roman period. Well, here is an example.

In Romanian, we have the vulgar word fut (physical coitus) which is directly related to such Classical Latin words as futuo, futui,futum, et cetera, having the same meaning. These words are rarely found in Classical literature but were used by such Roman poets as Catullus. These words were probably rarely used because they were considered to be in bad taste. There are also the Latin words 'refutare', which meant 'to drive back' (in other words, to push back)and 'confutare' which meant 'to check, supress, restrain'. All these Latin words that I've mentioned in this paragraph are beleived to derive from the root 'bhau', meaning 'to strike'. Yet this is not the root meaning.

In Albanian we find these words: fus, futa, futur, meaning 'to insert, stick in, put in' and futem, u futa, futur, meaning 'to go in, enter in'. These Albanian words are obviously from the same root as the Latin and Romanian words. These words are obviously closely related, and if any 'borrowing' went on, it must have been in very ancient times, not in the later Roman period. And if borrowing went on, the Latins may have borrowed this word from proto-Albanians.

In Albanian, these words can also mean to shove, push. This is interesting, because the English word put (as in 'to put in') derives from the Old English word putian, which meant 'to push, thrust'. These English words are of unknown origin and are not assigned to any IE root. They may be from the same IE source as the Latin, Romanian, and Albanian words.

Yet, in general, I don't know of too many words like these, and I think the relation of the Latin and Albanian words points to an unknown process at work here. I think the 'process' is the fact that the Latin languages developed adjacent to proto-Albanian.Decius 08:16, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

All of these words look to be from the same root. The problem is, what root are they from, and what is the original meaning of the 'fut-' stem. The development may have been: put in, insert>sex>producing offspring>, and by another development, insert>shove>thrust>push>strike. I don't think the original meaning was 'to strike', so I assign these words to a new root.Decius 09:02, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So: it looks like a sure thing that the Latin and Albanian words are from the same source. The English word probably is too. There are some Greek words that may be related also. I'll look into it.Decius 07:16, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sfrancioc

The DEX says that this word is 'from the serbo-croatian' word 'svrachek'. The DEX is wrong. There is no such word in Russian in any form, and if there was such a word in bulgarian the DEX would have mentioned it. So the word is not pan-slavic. It is found in serbo-croatian, and that is an isolated case. The word is in fact native to Romanian.

Sfrâncioc is a word applied to rapacious birds of the genus Lanius. The word is an old Romanian compound, and it means this: the first part is from the Romanian word frâng which means 'to tear apart', and this word is a Latin word (Lat. frangere). The second part is the Romanian word cioc, which means 'beak'. The name refers to the powerful beak of the Lanius, with which it tears apart prey. Cioc is an old Romanian word with an Albanian cognate, and is considered to be from Dacian. Cioc is indeed a Dacian word, and is an onomatopoeic word derived from cioc, the hard sound that a beak makes when it strikes a hard surface (compare the English word knock). The word ciocan (hammer)is also in fact a native Romanian word derived from cioc---and I don't care how many slavic languages it may be found in.

Once again, the DEX is wrong. And once again I advise people to do their own research. I will continue to tear apart any false etymologies that I spot.Decius 23:39, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Dusman and Capsoman

The Dex says that 'Dus(h)man' (enemy) is derived from Turkish, but what it doesn't say is that this word is ultimately from the ancient Greek word Dusmeneia, which meant 'ill-will, enmity', and is an ancient Greek compound: Dus('bad')+ Meneia (menes=the will, as in Latin mens). The exact Romanian equivalent of that Greek word is Dusmanie, with the same meaning.

From Dusmeneia was formed another ancient Greek word, Dusmenes, which meant 'full of ill-will, hostile'. In Sophocles, we find the phrase 'Dusmenes Chthonos' which is translated in my souce as meaning 'ENEMY of the land' (chthon=land, earth).

Not only is it ultimately from ancient Greek, but I beleive strongly that the word was picked up long, long ago by the Dacians from the Greeks, and we had the word while the Turks were still in Central Asia. So the word may date from the Dacian period, though strictly speaking it is not a native Dacian word.

As for 'Capsoman', though I figured it should also be from Greek, the word was more obtuse, and I considered several possibilities, but now I have the definite source: an ancient Greek word that fits the best: which I didn't see previously because of the way words are listed in my dictionary: the word is Kapsamenes. In one instance it is applied in an ancient Greek text to 'an unadvantageous horse' and the word itself implied 'greediness, voraciousness, selfishness', and other meanings. From there it may have developed> selfishness> unfeeling>without good sense>stubborn>stupid. The word is from the stem Kapso, which meant 'to gulp down', prefixed to 'menes', 'the will, mind'. After centuries upon centuries, meanings change. I kept looking till I found the best candidate, and this should be it, without resorting to an unattested form. The Albanian word 'Kaps' (=constipated) may well be related to the Greek stem Kapso- as well.Decius 01:00, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

To recap: 1)Dusman is an old Romanian word ultimately from Greek (ancient Greek? Byzantine Greek?) 2) So, I figured Capsoman of parallel form should also be an old Romanian word picked up from Greek 3) I then tried to translate 'capsoman' within the context of ancient Greek, and eventually found my cognate: Kapsamenes. From what I remember, Dusman, even though falsely considered a Turkish borrowing, is nevertheless a Romanian word that predates the oldest known Romanian language document, so no one really knows how long we've had the word. I trace the word back to the Dacian period, along with 'capsoman'. The existence of these two words in Romanian back each other up and make a good case for proposing that they date so far back, before the turkish arrival. Strictly speaking, these are ancient Greek words. There is the possibility that these words entered Romanian in the post-Dacian period from Byzantine Greek, yet in any case these words are most likely from before the arrival of the Turks. I don't have a dictionary of New Greek words, yet I wouldn't be surprised if I don't find 'dusmenes' or 'kapsamenes' listed. If so, this would bolster the case that these words were borrowed from ANCIENT Greek.(Decius)

Here are the equations: Rom. Dusman= Grk. Dusmenes; Rom. Capsoman= Grk. Kapsamenes. Simple. I'm going to look through my dictionary for other words like these. Decius 08:41, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Latin equivalent of ancient Greek 'Kapso' is 'Capesso', which meant 'to seize, grasp eagerly', as a greedy man eagerly reaches for the last morsel and takes it for himself. 'Capesso' is from 'Caput', which in Romanian is 'Cap', so the reason the Greek word 'Kapsamenes' became popular in Romanian and the reason it modified its meaning is because it became associated with the Romanian word 'incapatanat'. User:Decius 10:53, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yet because 'capsoman' is obviously an ancient Greek word, and because it is hard to prove that it was a word used by Dacians, I have removed it from the List of Dacian words. I have searched through an online New Greek dictionary, and I found NO such words as 'dusmenes', 'dusman', 'capsoman', or 'kapsamenes', which makes me beleive that proto-Romanians picked up the words from ancient Greek, not from modern Greek, and not from Turkish. Decius 11:30, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If the editors of the DEX did not realize that Dusman is a Greek word, then so much for the credibility of the "DEX". I don't think they even knew about the ancient Greek word because in a 'scholarly' work by some guy named 'Oltetea' I saw 'dusman' listed as a possible 'cuman word'(!). These are the kind of 'scientists' I must deal with. Is it that hard to open an ancient Greek dictionary to look up some words? Decius 01:29, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Baiat

Considering all the other ancient Greek cognates, I think it's safe to say that the Romanian/Dacian word Baiat (boy, son) is cognate to the ancient Greek word Baia , which meant 'little, small'. The word also exists in the inflected forms Baios, Baian, BAIATeros, et cetera. Yet this is not a 'borrowed' word, any more than Latin 'fuga' (to run) was borrowed from ancient Greek 'phuge'(to run): no borrowing went on in either case. Decius 04:19, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There are also the ancient Greek words Pais, Paus, Paidos, Paidon, etc., which meant 'child', 'son', or 'daughter'. Though these words are closer in meaning, the other words are closer in form and are the true cognates. Decius 04:19, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Baiat is a Dacian word, and it was also a Thracian word, and the Daco-Thracic languages were on the Latin branch, with many Greek and Albanian influences, as I've said. The problem is, if you subtract all the Latin (Dacian)words, and you are left with mysterious words with Albanian cognates, of course it will appear as if Dacian was 'proto-Albanian'. If you subtract all the words from Latin except for the many words with Greek cognates, it would appear that the ancestors of the Romans were Greeks. In truth, you must NOT subtract the Latin words. And as I've shown, many of these supposedly 'non-Latin' words are in fact Latin words in disguise---yet they are not from 'romanization': they are from the Dacians. In any case, the many compound forms found in Dacian and Thracian show that they did not speak proto-Albanian languages. Decius 04:48, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bun

The Romanian word Buna and the Latin word Bona have for all these years been listed under the wrong IE root. These words are not from the root 'deu-', meaning 'to perform'. These words are in fact from the same root as the Greek word gune (woman), 'gunaikeos' (feminine). A Phrygian word was the clue.

In Romanian, we have the words 'Bunic' (grandfather) and 'Bunica' (grandmother) formed from 'Bun'. In Aromanian and Moldovan, the 'b' sound is often represented by a 'gh' sound (Rom. Bine=Arom. Ghine). 'Bunica' may conceivably have been pronounced 'Gunika'. Conceivably, in ancient times, this term 'Gunika' could also have been applied to younger women, young women, unrelated women, women in general. In ancient Greek, 'Guniaon' was a diminutive of 'Gune', meaning 'woman'. 'Gunaion' was often used as a term of endearment for one's wife.

In Phrygian, we find the word Bonekos, which meant wife. Clearly here we have a directly related form. Bonekos>Bunica>Gunaika> all from the stem bun/gun. The words 'Bun' and 'Bona' are more properly listed under the root 'Gwen', which is said to mean 'woman' but may have meant something else originally. A cynic would of course doubt that these words for 'good' come from the same source as words meaning 'woman', but that is the case. It makes sense semantically (the connected meanings) and phonetically (the observed shift between 'B' and 'G', while the shift from 'D' to 'B' that they propose is awkward).

This also shows the old Balkanic resonances for the Romanian forms 'Bunic' and 'Bunica'. It may be that these words date back to the Dacians. The difference between these languages: in Latin, bun/gun meant 'good' in general and could be also masculine. In Greek 'gun' meant 'feminine' and if applied to men, such as the word 'gunnis' was, it implied a feminine man. But that's no big deal, because that's the different meanings that the stem developed in different languages. Decius 06:03, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've looked at the other words listed under the root deu-, and from what I've seen Latin 'Bona' sticks out like 'a sore thumb' and doesn't look like it belongs there. It is the only word under that root to begin with a 'B'(aside from some other Latin words like 'bellus' meaning 'beautiful' that also don't belong there, though 'bellus' is not from 'gwen' either). It's not from that root, and the phonetic shifts in this case are v<>b<>g<>j<>z, no 'd' involved. I know what opponents will say: that the Greek and Phrygian forms are indeed related but that the Romanian forms are a 'coincidence'. Yet at this stage, I could give a damn what an academic linguist says. I have lost almost all respect for them.(Decius)

Mofturos

The Romanian word Mofturos which means 'capricious', 'given to whims', is formed from Moft which is beleived to derive from the turkish word 'muft'. Well, I got bad news for all who beleive that derivation: because the word is in fact from ancient Greek.

In ancient Greek, we find the word Mochtheros, which is defined in any ancient Greek dictionary as 'rascally, impish, knavish' and the word is from the ancient Greek word 'Mochthos', which meant 'toil, trouble' and from there we get 'mochtheros', which basically meant 'troublesome' and from there the more specific adjectives.

Mofturos in Romanian, as I've said, means someone (often a child) that is capricious, given to whims and sudden desires, and such people (especially such children) are often very troublesome and rascally. This is not a coincidence. The Romanian words 'moft' and 'mofturos' are ultimately from ancient Greek, and the sound change from 'Chi' (ch, h) to 'H' then to 'F' is already an observed phenomenon. And since Romanian does not generally have the 'th' sound (as in THick), the theta would have been changed into another sound. There is NO reason to propose any 'turkish intermediaries', and I'm not even sure if the word is found in New Greek.

Yet again, I have shown that a word beleived to be derived from 'turkish' is in fact from Greek, and may well have been borrowed by proto-Romanians (Dacians) from ancient Greeks. I am not making fools of the standard authorities, they have made fools of themselves. Decius 04:44, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Of course, this means that the Turkish word is either from Greek or from Romanian. Since I have searched an Online New Greek dictionary and I found no such words, I consider 'Moft' and 'Mofturos' to be words that Proto-Romanians picked up from ancient Greeks, and the Turks got the words from Romanians.Decius 09:02, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

About the DEX

Most of the information that is found in the DEX ultimately is the product of work done in communist, soviet times, regardless of when the first edition of the DEX was published (it was a book before it was an online dictionary, I own a copy of the second edition from 1998). I don't know what impulses guided some of their derivations, if they were ignorant or dishonest.

What I do know is that in many cases they are mistaken. Sometimes the mistakes are excusable, many times they are not. Other times, if I cannot say that they are mistaken, I can say that they are speculating or assuming. Sometimes it seems as if all they did (for example, the word naparli) was grab a Bulgarian dictionary for instance, and, if they find a Romanian word of unknown origin that is also found in Bulgarian, they seem to think they have 'found the source', when in truth all they have done is find that the Bulgarians also have the word---not that the word is from them.

Sometimes they are not that superficial, and instead of proclaiming that the word is 'from bulg.' they say 'cf. bulg.'. That is what should be done in many cases. In the meanwhile, instead of including new research and releasing a revised edition, we'll probably see the same old derivations given until someone does something about it. I just sent an email to DEX letting them know about the real deal concerning 'Dusman': hopefully the email went through.[[[User:Decius|Decius]] 06:36, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)] 06:20, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

For 'Dusman', for example, we should at least see: "Cf. Tc. Dusman, Gr. Dusmenes" if not "Din Gr. Dusmenes" instead of "Din Tc. Dusman" as we see now. The same thing for 'Moft'. Of course, other issues I bring up, like reorganizing some IE roots, are adressed not to the DEX at all: that's not their jurisdiction. Decius 06:33, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

They should be thankful it is a Romanian that is pointing out their mistakes. Imagine how embrarassing it would be if some Bulgarian or Hungarian pointed out these oversights. The DEX is giving Romanian linguists a bad name with each day that they leave the false etymologies listed. Decius 06:48, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Don't worry. It seems that the Hungarian and Bulgarian dictionaries do the same thing: when in doubt, they say: "from Romanian <word>", in the good old local tradition of "passing the dead cat" :-) Bogdan | Talk 11:23, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Pofta

With this next word Pofta (desire, yearning, craving) I don't necessarily disagree that it's from slavic 'pohotet' (in Russian for instance, 'pohot*' means 'desire' in the sexual manner). It might be. Yet I'm going to show that it's not necessarily from slavic.

In ancient Greek, there is a cluster of interesting words: Pothos meant 'desire, a yearning for, a longing after for' whether in an amorous sense or otherwise. Here are some of the inflected forms: Pothemi; pothen; pothe; potheo; pothei; pothoi; and so on. I'm not necessarily saying 'pofta' is from Greek, I just want to make people question their assumptions. The Greek and slavic forms may be from the same root. What if the Dacians also had such a word, similiar in form to the Greek and Slavic words? What if the Dacian word came down from IE and had the form 'pofta'? It's not impossible. What would make it a bit more likely is if we find 'pofta' used among the southern Vlachs. I don't know if they have such a word, and even if they did that wouldn't be conclusive proof.

Nevertheless, I want to make people aware of the possibility, especially considering that I have shown that 'Moft', a word of similar form to 'Pofta' and even of similar meaning, is not from Turkish, but from ancient Greek. Not from Modern Greek. Decius 08:14, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Parallel examples: 'Suta' is considered a Dacian word, though it's reminiscent of slavic 'sto' (a hundred); Balta is considered a Dacian word, though it's reminiscent of south slavic 'blato'; Dalta is considered by some to be a Dacian word, though it's reminiscent of south slavic 'dlato': and so on. 'Pofta' may be another example of a Dacian word remiscent of a slavic word (pohoteti) because of IE inheritance.

Classical Latin 'domus' (house) is an exact cognate of pan-Slavic 'dom' (house), though the Romans never encountered the slavs. The words come from IE. There are many other examples. 'Pofta' and other words might be examples of Dacian words being equivalent to slavic words: pofta, pohoteti. Stranger things have happened. Decius 08:26, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here are some Romanian words that I consider to be indeed from slavic: Otrava, Bogat, Zdravan, Zalog, Slava, Slobod, and plenty more. Many others can be disputed. Even if a word is found in Russian or Polish, it doesn't mean the word is native to Slavic. A word must also pass other tests: the stems must be broken down and analyzed.Decius 08:49, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Casca

The DEX says the Romanian word Casca (to open, esp. of the mouth; to gape) is derived from an unattested Latin word, '*cascere'. No such Latin word is attested. The Latin words for this action are 'hio' and 'hisco'.

Yet in Ancient Greek we find an exact equivalent: Chasko, which meant 'to yawn, gape' and was also used especially of the mouth. The word 'Chaskazo' meant 'to keep gaping at' something. The word 'Chaskax' meant 'a gaper, an overly-talkative person'. The Romanian word for 'Chaskax' is Cascat. In Romanian, 'cascat' means 'a gaper, a doofus'.

Considering these words, I don't see any reason to propose a Roman source for the Romanian words. It is more likely the Dacians had these words, as they had many words in common with Greeks. Maybe if we found such words in other Romance languages we might say they are from the Romans. Yet I haven't seen such words. And in any case Dacians and Getians were dealing with Greeks for centuries. The Greek colonists living in Black sea coastal towns in what is now Romania and Moldova often made deals whereby the Getians protected their cities from hostile Scyths, who didn't like Greeks or anything Greek.

So, I say that 'Casca' is a Dacian word. Decius 04:00, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The ancient Greek word 'chasma' (>chasm, a gaping hollow) is from the same stem Chas-. The Dacian words, the Greek words, and the Latin words (hio, hisco) are all from the same IE root, 'Ghei-', which meant 'to yawn, to gape', and the English words 'yawn' and 'gape' are also known to be from this root. Decius 04:00, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chizda

This is an old Romanian word (it is the vulgar word for 'vagina')found in the Moldovan vernacular and also among the southern Aromanians. The standard Daco-Romanian form is 'pizda'(k>p sound), a word also found in many slavic languages (including Russian) and also found in Albanian as 'pidh'. I suspected that 'chizda' is an old Daco-Thracian word, and I was right.

The word is from the same IE root as the ancient Greek word 'Kista' which meant 'a box, a chest, a basket'. The meaning of the stem 'kis' is of something closed (inchis) or something that can shut tightly. The semantic development is already observed: the English word 'keister'(buttocks, anus) which is from Yiddish, which is "from German 'kiste' (box, chest), from Old High German 'kista', from Germanic 'kista' (unattested), from Latin 'cista', from Greek 'kista'." And there we have our parallel example.

The old Romanian word 'chizda' is directly related to the ancient Greek word 'kista', yet I don't think it developed from the Greek word: both words come from an old Balkanic stem 'kis-' which meant 'closed'. The word 'chizda' is from Daco-Thracian and the Greek word may have developed from a Thracian stem or perhaps was a direct loanword from Thracian. The Greek word is not assigned to a real IE root (as in the case of bursa) but to a preliminary psuedo-root, which is not a root but the noun itself: 'kista', meaning, 'box, chest, basket'. Well, I have found the IE root of both 'kista' and 'chizda'.

The Romanian words 'inchis' and 'deschis' are not from 'includere' and 'discludere' as the DEX says: the actual Latin equivalent is 'scidi'/'scissum', which meant 'to hew apart, open'. Inchis=close. Deschis=open. Chis=closed. Schis=open. You take away the 's' (ex-) and you have 'chis/kis' which meant 'closed'. Furthermore, the words 'inchis' and deschis' are not necessarily from the Romans, but may be from the Dacians, because in ancient Greek we find equivalents of the Latin words with the same meaning: the ancient Greek words are 'schizo' which meant 'to split apart/open', and 'schistos' meant 'parted, divided'. The Romanian language is a Latin language descended from a Latin language: Dacian, which was a Latin language with a high frequency of Greek cognates, even more than in Classical Latin, which makes sense given their proximity to each other. Decius 05:03, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The IE root is 'skei-' which meant 'to cut, split (open)'. Words from this root that have dropped the initial 's' (or 'z' or other sibiliant or whatever) meant the opposite: to bring together, to close: 'kei-'. Decius 05:23, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

By the way, 'ch' in Romanian always represents the hard 'k' sound (as in anc. Greek 'kista'). 'Chizda' is pronounced Keez-duh or Keez-da, depending on the appropriate inflection. The ancient Greek word was pronounced 'Kees-ta', not 'kiss-ta' as in English 'kiss'. That's why the word 'keister' is pronounced 'kees-ter', and in Brooklyn you might hear 'kees-tah'.Decius 05:29, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Duda

It is known that many Romanian words/names for specific species of trees are of unknown origin, and most such words are considered of Dacian origin. Yet Dud, the Romanian word for the mulberry tree (a nice looking tree) is supposedly (according to DEX, that is) a loanword from the Turks, because they have the same word for the tree: 'dut'. The Romanian word 'dudui' (to shake, shiver) is not considered to derive from Turkish, it is considered to be simply onomatopeic (and it pretty much is yet see below). Well, I'm not an authority on the Turkic languages, and I don't know whether the word 'dut' is found in other Turkic languages.

I do know this: the mulberry tree (Morus Nigra) would have been known to the Dacians and early Romanians, just as it was known to the Romans, Greeks, et cetera, so they should certainly have had a word for the tree. It would be strange (unparalleled?) for a Turkish word to supplant a native Romanian word for a certain type of indigenous tree.

Also, I know this: both 'dud' and 'dudui' can be perfectly derived from the Indo-European root Dud-, which meant 'to SHAKE'. If this is a coincidence, it is an amazing coincidence. The Norwegian word 'dudra', 'to quiver' is from this root. So is the Old English word 'dadiren', 'to tremble'. So is the Middle English word 'doder' meaning 'vine' (semantic explanation: 'that which quivers in the wind')and Middle Low German 'doderen', 'to tremble' and the English word 'dodder' (to shake as if from old age). So is Middle Dutch 'doten', which meant 'to be silly' (semantic explanation: 'to be old and shaky and senile, thus silly'), from which comes the English word 'dote' and 'dotard' (=a senile person).

Why name a mulberry tree 'dud'? Because mulberry trees have those type of gangly branches that shake and tremble a lot in the wind (trust me, you can observe this and verify it yourselves). So both Romanian words are directly related and both can be easily derived from this IE root. Consider this: the Latin word for the mulberry tree (Morus) is a homonym of another Latin word for 'a fool' (Morus): they are from the same idea: a shaky old fool.

So, 1)the Romanian words can be perfectly derived from the Indo-European root Dud-. 2)the semantic development is observed in neighboring closely-related Indo-European languages (Latin & Greek). 3)I know of no other case where a Turkish word supplanted a native Romanian word for a native tree 4) the Romanian form 'DUD' is closer to the IE root DUD than the Turkish word 'dut' 5)Many Romanian names for trees are considered to be of Dacian origin, which shows that Romanians are tenacious and conservative when it comes to names of their trees, and many such names go back to Dacian times.

'Dudui' (to shake, tremble) is acknowledged to be a native Romanian word. I am proposing that 'Dud' (mulberry tree> a shaky tree) is also an old native Romanian word ultimately from the Indo-European root Dud-, 'to shake' (possibly by way of Gothic tribes, yet I beleive these are Dacian words). Of course, this means that the Turkish words may well be borrowed from Romanian. Decius 09:10, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

'Dud-' meaning 'to shake' is an onomatopoeic Indo-European root. The fact that the ROOT meaning of the word is native to Romanian (dudui=to shake, from which only later develops the idea of a shaky tree) is yet more evidence that 'dud' is native to Romanian and the Turks got the word from us. The Turks were nomadic tribes who ranged across far distances, so they were likely to forget their own native words for certain types of trees as they went from central Asia to Anatolia, which is a great distance, and they were likely to pick up such names from the locals. I assume that if the Turks had the word 'dudui' in the sense 'to shake', the DEX would have been quick to mention this: they don't mention this, so perhaps they don't have the word. Decius 09:33, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Romanian word 'Dud' is pronounced 'Dood' so that it rhymes with 'food'. The 'Dud-' in 'Dudui' is also pronounced 'Dood'. Decius 11:37, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mos

I also see a definite link between the Latin word 'Morus' (mulberry tree; silly) and the Romanian word 'Mos' (old man) and the Albanian words. This is important, and again I am the first to propose such a connection. It is intriguing. Decius 09:17, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The idea of 'dark'(mur) also plays a role in 'Morus' and I can explain that too. As for the 'r'<>'s' shift, that is a well known movement in Latin: Mas, Maris, Nas, Naris, and indeed there is the known movement from the Latin word Mos(inclination of a person, the customs, habits) to Moris and Morem, same word different inflection. The Romanian word Mostenire (customs, inheritance) is directly related to that Latin word, though it's not from the Romans: you know who it's from: Stramosi: the Dacians. Decius 09:46, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I bring to your attention such Romanian words as 'Mos(h)moni' , 'mos(h)mondi' to do something very slowly, like an old man: Mos(h). Compare these words to the Latin word 'moror' , 'to delay, 'to linger', 'loiter'. The same idea of slow movement. The same Latin stem: Mos/Mor. Also, the Latin words 'mora' (delay), 'moror' (to be foolish), 'morologus' (to talk like a fool), 'morosus' (peevish, fretful), 'mors' (death), 'moribundus' (dying), 'morior' (to die, waste away, wither away),'morositas' (peevishness, fretfulness). From the Latin word 'morem' meaning 'customs' came the word 'moralis' meaning 'morals, ethics' (such morals are usually cultural/traditional). All these words are properly from the root mer-. Decius 09:28, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Let me clear this up: the standard sources are wrong when they assign the anc. Greek word 'Moron' (mulberry tree) and the anc. Greek word 'Moros' (foolish) to different roots: 'moro-' for the mulberry meaning and 'mouro' for the 'foolish' meaning: they are in fact from the same stem Mor-, found in Latin, Greek, Dacian, and also Albanian. Under 'moro' I only see two words listed: Greek 'moron' (mulberry tree) and Latin 'morus' (mulberry tree). Under 'mouro' they only list the Greek word 'moros' (foolish). It is nonsense to organize them in this way: so I sweep their idea aside. Decius 10:01, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The meanings to contemplate here are: old age; senility; slowness; foolishness; darkness; death; age in general; old things; customs; habits; the inherited inclinations of a person, their disposition; inheritance in general. The IE root I'm considering is: mer-, 'to rub away, waste away, things that are harmful'. The semantic development for the Romanian word 'Mos' is: wasting away> growing old> old man/old woman. For the Latin word 'Mos' the development was: old man> elders>ancestors> inherited traits and customs and beliefs. This shows that the Latin word is a later derivation of a very ancient proto-Latin source word 'Mos' that meant 'old person'. The Romans lost that meaning. The Dacians kept it, and the Romanians still have it. This is what I meant by Latin forms even older than the Latin of Rome.Decius 10:32, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Latin word 'Mos/Moris/Morem' is listed under the wrong root 'me', and I see that linguists already suspected that it is listed under the wrong root, because my book says that "perhaps Latin Mos, disposition, manner, custom" is from the root 'me-'. Well, when somebody says "perhaps" they imply "perhaps not". My own research leads me to remove these Latin words from 'me' and put them under 'Mer'. Decius 01:54, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So from this root developed words that had the meaning 'old', 'senile', 'foolish', and even 'gloomy/dark'. The mulberry tree, with its gnarled shaky branches, came to be called 'morus' because it reminded the ancients of 'a shaky old man'. The dark berries of the Morus Nigra (the Morus Alba has lighter berries) further cemented the name, because the word also implied 'gloominess/darkness'. If we apply the old Latin inflections to Morus we get Mos>Morus>Morum. Mos/Morus in ancient Latin (not Classical Latin) meant 'old man'. The 'Mos' form survived in Dacian, and there we have our Romanian word Mos(h). Decius 12:43, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A point I want to make: the fact that words from this cluster exist in Albanian does not surprise me any more than the fact that we find it in ancient Greek. The Romanian word is from the Latin language of the Dacians. So, Mos is a Dacian word and so is STRAmosi, with the Latin prefix( stra<>extra). Decius 10:55, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In Latin, the word 'vetus' means 'old' and the word is from the IE root 'wet-', that meant 'year, time'. From this same root is known to come the Latin word 'vitulus' which meant CALF (young cow or young bull). I propose that 'Mos' is another IE stem that meant 'old' (like vetus) and here is more proof: in ancient Greek, we find the word 'MOSchias' which is applied mostly to a CALF and also to young animals in general, and the anc. Greek word 'Moschos' is applied to 'young shoots, green twigs'. These are not coincidences. This is evidence: Vetus(old)<>vitulus(calf): Mos (old)<> moschias (calf).Decius 02:35, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also, to return to another Dacian word, the Romanian word 'Vatra' is also from the IE root 'wet-', like the Latin words 'vetus' and 'veteranus' and the Romanian words 'Batran' and 'Batrana'. 'Vatra' is an old Dacian Latin word that meant 'old woman' (Vatra<>Batrana): in ancient times, old women used to keep the hearth fire going. This is noted in many old world cultures, and also Native American cultures. The goddess of the hearth is almost always a woman (Vesta/Hestia) and often an old woman. So, again my warning: words that appear non-Latin or even non-IE are in fact very much Latin and are from Dacian. Decius 03:03, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

For about a century now, linguists have been stumbling and bumbling over the Romanian language and its mysterious words. Because they were approaching the subject from the false 'romanization' theory, the language remained locked to them: I came and applied the Dacian Latin theory, and now the mysteries are unraveling themselves: because the truth is that the Dacians spoke a Latin language. Decius 03:12, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Craciun

By now it should be no surprise when I say that the DEX is wrong concerning the source of this word: and even the DEX says it's 'probabil din Latin creationis' not 'definitely'. In fact, it's not from that word at all. Craciun is an old Dacian word, and it's from the IE root ger-, the same root that the English word 'cringle' is from (Mos Craciun<>Chris Cringle). The root is the source of words meaning 'wrinkled, bent, crooked, curved, hooked' and this root is related to another IE root also with the form ger-, which meant 'old' (anc. Greek 'geron'=old man).

The idea behind the word 'Craciun' is the idea of Old Man Winter, bent and crooked, who was beleived to hover over the earth around Christmas time. Often he was imagined to carry a hooked scythe, like father time. Among the ancient Romans, Christmas was the time of the Saturnalia, a festival dedicated to Saturn, who was also often depicted with a scythe (he was associated with time, with the elder world, and with agriculture). The ancient Greek name for Saturn was Kronos: and I beleive the name KRonos may also come from one of those ger- roots: in the Iliad, Homer on several occasions refers to Kronos as 'crooked-minded Kronos': crooked: the English word 'crooked' is from ger-. 'Craciun' may have been the Dacian name for 'Saturn', or at least the name of the old Saturn festival formed from the name (as Saturnalia from Saturn).

Many words beginning with Cra- (Kra-) are known to come from ger-, and I'll list them later. A number of other Romanian words also come from this root, such as 'creanga' and 'craca' which the DEX says are 'from bulgarian' yet they are not pan-slavic. 'Grapa' I derived from this same root awhile back: it's common for the same root to develop variously within the same language (cra>craciun/gra>grapa), and I've seen this happen in Latin as well. I'm sure the word Craciun is not from 'creatonis', and I'm pretty sure it's from the Dacians, from the IE root Ger-. Decius 05:30, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Gee, Decius, I wonder what made you think of these particular topics this week... -- Jmabel | Talk 05:57, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

:)It was all part of the master plan. Decius 06:33, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Turture

'T(s)urt(s)ure' is an old Romanian word for an 'icicle' that is considered to derive from Dacian. Previous researchers have already done a good job tracing the root of this word (Olteanu's article), yet I have some extra info I haven't seen discussed elsewhere that adds to the case.

Olteanu correctly identifies T(s)ur- as a substratum Dacian stem that meant 'a tube, a tunnel', and he cites the ancient Greek word Syrinx (=Surinx, that 'Y' is always an Upsilon) as being from the same stem. Correct. I found another ancient Greek word that seals the case (though it was already sealed): Turisdo (tur-), which was the Doric variant for Surizo, which was a verb that meant 'to play the surinx or play other pipes'. There is a continuity from Sur<>T(s)ur<>Tur, and the Romanian form is inbetween the standard Greek and the Dorian form. This is interesting in another respect: it is known the Dorians once lived well up in the North of Greece, adjacent to Thracians (though Thracians also lived well south into Greece, especially in earlier times): perhaps they had the Tur- form under Thracian influence, though the Dorians themselves were Greek-speakers (at least I beleive so).

This stem is found in other Romanian words (such as T(s)urloi and others). In ancient Greek surinx is also used in some texts to mean 'any long hollow object' such as the sheath of a lance. Polybius used the word to refer to 'a tunnel' or 'mine shaft'. The word 'Syringe' (suringe, hollow tube) is known to be from Surinx. A cognate to these Greek words is found in Sanskrit: surunga, which meant 'an underground tunnel'. Though there was a German linguist who said this word may entered sanskrit after the Greeks entered India: that's irrelevant to my point, and I won't get into that.

I also beleive that the anc. Greek word Turris (a tower: a long, high cylindrical partly hollow construction: an icicle looks like a small upside down tower of ice) is from the same stem. The word entered Latin and from there it entered the Romance languages, and then other languages such as English: tower. The stem is defintely an ancient Balkan stem, and the Romanian words are from Dacian and Thracian. Decius 02:21, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)