Talk:Sophie, Duchess of Edinburgh
Did I miss something? When, and by whom, is she called Princess Edward? Deb 20:31 May 7, 2003 (UTC)
All women who marry male members of the Royal Family automatically assume the title Princess {name of husband}. For example, Princess Michael of Kent, the wife of Prince Michael of Kent. The only exception is the wife of the heir apparent, hence we had Princess Diana, not Princess Charles. Because most royal bride grooms receive a peerage on their wedding day, though this unusual title automatically comes into existence, it generally is not used, with the peerage name used instead. Hence though she became Princess Andrew on her marriage, Fergie became known as the Duchess of York (or on her divorce Sarah, Duchess of York). But she was never ever Princess Sarah. Ditto with the Queen Mum when she married Prince Albert. She became Princess Albert, not Princess Elizabeth, but again as her husband became Duke of York, she came to be known as the Duchess of York. But Princess Albert, Princess Andrew, Princess Edward (never Princess Sophie) all exist albeit unused. I set up the redirect page in case someone found the name somewhere (it crops up very occasionally) and did a google search. This way they would come to wiki and the page on Sophie, Countess of Wessex. ÉÍREman 22:42 May 7, 2003 (UTC)
- I've never heard of this "exception" for wives of heirs apparent. Do you have a reference for this? My understanding was that the Princess of Wales was only called "Princess Diana" informally, by people who either didn't know or didn't care about the formal convention. -- Oliver P. 00:34 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
Every Princess of Wales was called by their own name. Queen Mary was called Princess Mary. Queen Alexandra was called Princess Alexandra. When Catherine of Aragon's marriage to Henry VIII was annulled, she was referred to as the Dowager Princess of Wales/Princess Dowager of Wales, or as Princess Catherine, not Princess Arthur etc. I can check with Buckingham Palace for confirmation if you want, but I am 99.99999999% certain. I remember at Andrew and Fergie's wedding, before it was confirmed that he would be made Duke of York, the media did talk about her becoming Princess Andrew. But I never heard anyone ever made the same point re Diana and I do remember someone explicitly make a point of the difference in her nomenclature to that of her sisters-in-law and how lucky she was to keep her own name unlike them, though I cannot remember where. (Because I have had a long term interest in heads of state and associated people, I tend to remember these facts even if I never remember who said it and when.) I think if my memory serves me correct, it also applies to the Heir Apparent's heir. So Prince William's bride will also be called by her name, whereas Harry's will be Princess Henry. (Hah! The irony. We don't even know her name, but we already know what she will be called!!!) ÉÍREman 00:51 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks for the reply. I don't really remember Charles and Diana's wedding, but I'll be sure to listen out for comments when Prince William gets married. :) In the meantime, I might check in some books, because I always feel more comfortable if I have a solid reference for something. -- Oliver P. 01:20 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
Dare I say this, JTD? -- I think you may have got it wrong. I clearly remember that, at the time of Charles and Diana's wedding, Princess Charles was one of the titles proposed for her, but it was discarded in favour of "Princess of Wales". Princess Michael of Kent is only called by her husband's name because he doesn't have a title, eg. a royal dukedom, therefore there is no alternative. In cases where the husband holds a title, there is no reason for using his first name and therefore this possible alternative is never used. Deb 17:14 May 8, 2003 (UTC)
According to history books, the wife of a Prince of Wales is automatically Princess of Wales, so it could not have been specifically chosen. In addition, I have never come across a Princess of Wales referred to by anything other than Princess {own name}. Not once have I ever seen the slightest reference to any wife of an heir apparent been referred to Princess {name of husband}. For example, Catherine of Aragon did not become Princess Arthur after her annulment. When Princess of Wales, Alexandra was called Princess Alexandra (or generally Prince Alix!) never Princess Albert Edward.
But wifes of royals other than the heir apparent have never been allowed use that format. They have been allowed two forms: Princess {name of husband} or if their husband received a peerage as the duchess/countess of whatever. But from what I can gather, the first is automatic even though not used if the latter exists.
Actually I think this article is wrongly titled. As far as I can know (having talked to someone who works in the area of titles many years ago, the form {name}, {title} is used for the divorced wife of a peer. Hence Princess Diana assumed the usage of Diana, Princess of Wales after her divorce (and her mother was Frances, Countess Spencer until she remarried while her stepmother became Countess Spencer not Raine, Countess Spencer) Similarly, Fergie became Sarah, Duchess of York when she divorced. Their married title is simply the Princess of Wales, the Duchess of York. etc. Sophie, Countess of Wessex thus means Sophie, formerly The Countess of Wessex (ie, former wife of the Earl of Wessex). The Court Circular never uses Sophie, Countess of Wessex but The Countess of Wessex. Princess Margaret when married was either The Countess of Snowdon or Princess Margaret, the Countess of Snowdon in the Court Circular. But after her divorce, she was called Margaret, Countess of Snowdon, with Tony's second wife being simply the Countess of Snowdon. I did once see the Queen Mum before becoming Queen mentioned in an old text as Princess Albert, the Duchess of York but the standard form was simply The Duchess of York. I suspect this page should be written as either simply The Countess of Wessex, 'Sophie, the Countess of Wessex or 'Princess Edward, the Countess of Wessex'. But the current name would be her post-marital name. I know the royals have a dreadful history in the marriage stakes but we can hardly presume that Sophie will be the next royal ex-wife! *grin*
I am certain that the husband's name is not used by the wife if he is heir apparent. I am going to check about the Princess husband name with Buckingham Palace. Who knows, maybe I am wrong. I have been before, but what I have said follows what I have always understood to be the rules. ÉÍREman 00:16 May 9, 2003 (UTC)
I think I must have been asleep when I replied last night. Of course Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary were formerly known as Princess Alexandra and Princess Mary - they were princesses of Denmark and Teck respectively! :) They held these titles because of the families they were born into, not because of who they married. here's a nice long alt.talk.royalty thread on the subject of royal styles. It looks a bit daunting, but I might read through some of it. There are a few people on that newsgroup who are very well-informed about such matters. You should pay particular attention to this message by Frank Johansen, which pretty much clears everything up, I think. Here is an extract: "Sophie is *styled* HRH The Countess of Wessex. Her *full titles* are HRH The Princess Edward of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Countess of Wessex and Vicountess Severn." Wouldn't it be simpler just to title articles about members of the royal family with their official styles, rather than mess about with all this making up of names? The Countess of Wessex would then be at HRH The Countess of Wessex. How's that? -- Oliver P. 00:36 May 9, 2003 (UTC)
Oliver is, I think, right that Diana was never officially "Princess Diana". But have there been any other commoner Princesses of Wales against whom this can be checked? I think that Caroline of Brunswick would have only been a "Duchess", and Caroline of Ansbach a "Margravine" on their own merit, so seeing if they were ever called "Princess Caroline" as opposed to "Princess of Wales" might work.
As far as using official styles, this could become confusing with titles that have been held by more than one person. For instance, HRH The Prince of Wales, HRH The Duke of York, HRH The Duke of Edinburgh, HRH The Duke of Gloucester, HRH The Duke of Kent - all of these styles have been used by more than one person. It should, however, be made more clear in the articles what the person's official style actually is. I tried to change some of them, but haven't done so consistently. john 01:14 May 9, 2003 (UTC)
We have a policy of not using styles in titles simply because (how can I put it in a way Zoe would take as anti-American?) some users on part of the American continent south of Canada aren't familiar with styles and in the past on wiki either get them wrong or start removing them, regarding them as ponsy British rubbish. Also you get into knots in some cases; eg, we correctly call exiled King Constantine II of Greece by his title. Calling him His Majesty however affronts Greek republicans who say they can barely stomach him being called by his former title but calling him HM is just too much. And then what do we do with someone like Otto von Habsburg, the former Crown Prince of Austria-Hungary? The Vatican still calls him Your Imperial Highness. Do we, given that his father's throne was abolished in 1918? Or Victor Emmanuel, Prince of Naples? I had a battle to stop Italian monarchists on wiki calling him 'Victor Emmanuel IV. And what about Leka I, heir to the Albanian throne? Or 'Henry V', who claimed to be King of France from the 1830s to his death in 1883 (I think it was!) Or 'Louis XX', the minority legitimist claimant to the French throne? We can justify using most senior title for deposed monarchs, but there are still many people out there (in a certain part of the world!) who are unhappy with Charles, Prince of Wales and fought tooth and nail for [[Charles Windsor]]. Push them too much and they could decide unilaterally decide to change names all over the place to stop using titles at all. (Titles, as one told me, being just a lot of "British class crap that should not be on an encyclopædia".
Re Diana - As far as I know, when one becomes princess of Wales, one becomes . . . well . . a princess. It is automatic. You could hardly have Lady Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales or Mrs. Camilla Mountbatten-Windsor, Princess of Wales. It goes with the territory. Internationally brides of Crown Princes are invariably called 'princess'. In addition, the Palace are rather strict on major titles. When after the divorce, some media outlets called Diana 'Princess of Wales' the BP Press office was on immediately to correct them, and so after a week or so Diana was rarely referred to that way. In contrast they couldn't care less about Fergie so the media still call her Duchess of York even though she isn't anymore. No-one corrected 'Princess Diana' which they would have done informally if it was wrong. Indeed BP during her marriage used that form in press releases. Another example: Prince Philip was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark but he gave up all his titles prior to his marriage and married the current queen as Mr. Philip Mountbatten. He was immediately made a Prince of the United Kingdom as the spouse of the future monarch. It is hard to see Diana not also getting the same honour, given that in 1981 she was of course expected to be the next queen consort. As to May of Teck (later Mary) or Alexandra, as far as I know the use of 'princess' did not refer to their previous title but explicitly referred to their British rank. As a foreign princess, she would have one status in the order of precedence. But they and Diana had a different one as Princess of Wales. It is highly unlikely that such a rank could be used, involving precedence over other members of the Royal Family, if one didn't have the rank of Princess also. ÉÍREman 03:36 May 9, 2003 (UTC)
- Oh, nobody's denying that Alexandra, Mary (wasn't she only known as "May" within the family?), and Diana were British princesses, after they married their respective British princes. We're just debating what their style was, I think. And I think the alt.talk.royalty discussion made it fairly clear that if someone was a princess only by virtue of who they had married, then they had to be called "Princess [husband's name]", and not "Princess [own name]". I'll continue to believe this until you cite a proper reference for what you're saying. :)
- But you have a good point about the problems of putting royal and noble titles into article titles: some people don't accept the legitimacy of the titles. But I think we can decide those on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps we could just use the ones that are recognised by the government of the country in question, or just call everyone whatever they themselves want to be called. :) I don't think many people in the UK dispute that the Countess of Wessex is the Countess of Wessex, even if they think that such titles should be abolished. So I don't really see why we couldn't put her at HRH The Countess of Wessex, or The Countess of Wessex to avoid the "HRH" style thing, or just Countess of Wessex to avoid the definite article... If other people mess it up, we can always correct it. It may be a slow process, but we'll get there in the end. And if someone else becomes the Countess of Wessex in years to come, we can move the relevant articles... That's the joy of wiki. :) -- Oliver P. 04:04 May 9, 2003 (UTC) P.S. - Shouldn't we be asleep at this time? ;)
For Dr. Otto von Habsburg, isn't that what he calls himself? But in general, I think that members of former reigning houses should be called by their proper styles, if possible. Certainly they should be called by their proper names. Calling the head of the Prussian royal house "Georg Friedrich Hohenzollern", for instance, is just wrong, since his actual name is Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preussen. As far as "some people not accepting the legitimacy of titles", in certain cases I'd say this is nonsense. Are we supposed to call Lord Salisbury "Mr. Gascoyne-Cecil" just because we don't think much of noble titles?
Which countries don't allow the use of noble titles/names at all? I believe Austria doesn't, but they don't really care if the Habsburgs call themselves Archdukes of Austria (except for Otto himself). Of European countries, though, only Greece seems to be particularly upset about the use of titles. And since the Greek royal family doesn't have any other name, what else can they be called? And I continue to agree with Oliver about the Princess (own name) vs. Princess (husband's name) dispute. john 04:15 May 9, 2003 (UTC)
- Here we go again. I've done loads of research into the Princesses of Wales, and I can tell you this:
- a. Diana's official title was "Princess of Wales", never "Princess Diana" -- and, yes, those who slipped up and called her "Princess Diana" were often corrected. She became "Diana, Princess of Wales" on her divorce, and we used that as the title of the article (eventually) because it was the best compromise. Like I said before, the title of "Princess Charles" was considered and rejected.
- b. Other Princesses of Wales have officially been called "Princess of Wales" while they held the title, not "Princess Mary" or "Princess Alexandra" (except, as was explained somewhere above, before their marriage). I'm fairly sure that the Carolines and others were simply called "Princess of Wales" -- or put it this way, I've never come across them being called anything else while they held the title. (George IV referred to his wife as "she who calls herself the Princess of Wales").
- I believe that the best title for this article would be "Sophie Wessex", which is the name Sophie has chosen for herself. It was Isis who moved it to "Sophie Rhys-Jones", and she did that purely because I had originally named it. Okay, so Sophie's recently been forced out of productive employment, but it's better than her official title, which is "The Countess of Wessex".
- Deb 10:41 May 10, 2003 (UTC)
I did some checking with Buckingham Palace and the Earl of Wessex's office. According to them
- Diana was a princess. On marrying the heir apparent, one automatically becomes one. But 'Princess Diana' was a generalised populist title that was not used officially. She was the 'HRH The Princess of Wales'. (Similarly 'Prince Charles' is wrong. He is correctly referred to in three forms - generally as HRH The Prince of Wales, in Scotland HRH The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay, in Cornwall HRH The Duke of Cornwall. They are the correct forms.) After her divorce, she became simply Diana, Princess of Wales. They were not sure if Diana ceased to be a princess; ie was the 'princess' like HRH linked to her marriage to the PoW and not personal, or did she remain one? But BP have no problem with Princess Diana or Prince Charles but not calling her HRH The Princess of Wales after her divorce. So Princess Diana is seen as semi-right, not technically correct but effectively accurate, as it was with past Princesses of Wales.
- Sophie's office are completely confused on her title. But the above title mentioned HRH The Princess Edward of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Countess of Wessex and Vicountess Severn seemed to the person I spoke to to be more than likely correct. Sophie Wessex is a working name, not a royal name and should not be used, according to the person. Sophie, Countess of Wessex' is offensive because it is a divorceé name. Sophie, the Countess of Wessex is marginally more accurate and preferable. Princess Edward, the Countess of Wessex may be more accurate still (the person I spoke to was not sure). On balance I would go with Sophie, the Countess of Wessex. ÉÍREman 20:11 May 10, 2003 (UTC)
- To say that "Sophie Wessex" should not be used, but in the same breath that it is a working name, is contradictory. It all depends what you are using it for. If you are inviting her to a function in her capacity as a princess, you would obviously call her "HRH The Countess of Wessex", but if you were writing the minutes of a meeting at her office, you would write, "Sophie Wessex said that James Duffy should be sacked", or whatever. Deb 20:20 May 10, 2003 (UTC)