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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SlimVirgin (talk | contribs) at 22:22, 8 January 2005. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

On October 10, 2004, 4 months of intensive edit warring over the content of this and related articles were resolved through compromise. The previous discussion on this talk page has been archived at Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/archive1. I sincerely hope that future editing of this article can be done in conformity with Wikipedia NPOV policy. --Herschelkrustofsky 12:51, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Im suprised that this page doesn't talk about certain things. I picked up what appeared to be a LaRouce written magazine which appeared to set forth his political outlook, and essentially it sayed that FDR was the best president and laid down what might be called a "conspiracy" theory that politicians afterwards were influenced away from FDR's direction by this group of people associated with this international meeting, one I had never heard about before. Can anyone chime in on this?

I think LaRouche's view is that FDR was the best president of the 20th Century -- if I'm not mistaken, he has said that Lincoln was the best president overall. If you could be more specific about the "international meeting," I might be able to chime in on it. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:49, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I can't remember the name of it at all, but it took place back in the era of black and white pictures ;). What I read basically said it was these men at that meeting who eventually got control of the government and instigated that bread and circuses that is the 60's with programs like MKULTRA.

That would be the Congress for Cultural Freedom. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:16, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So if, at least in the present views of LaRouche, the CCF is like the center of the conspiracy, how does that gel with like the others mentioned in this article, such as Rockefeller, etc.?

SlimVirgin's latest contribution

The purpose of the first section of the article is to present LaRouche's core beliefs and provide a summary of his world view. The "conspiracy theory" section comes under "criticism of LaRouche" because it is a discussion of things that LaRouche may actually have said, which his opponents believe fall under the pejorative category of "conspiracy theories."

SlimVirgin has inserted the material from Take a Break magazine into this section, and then tried to move the entire section into the "core beliefs" portion of the article, because he wishes to assert that it is just unforgiveably wacky and iconoclastic to suggest that the world's weathiest and most visible aristocratic family acts like a bunch of overdressed refugees from The Godfather, even to the point of "bumping off" its perceived enemies[1], and that anyone (such as Princess Diana herself) who would suggest such a thing must be avoided, ridiculed, banned from Wikipedia, or dealt with even more harshly. It is for this reason that Slim's latest contribution belongs under "criticism of LaRouche." I am leaving the NPOV dispute tag up until there is a consensus on this topic. --Herschelkrustofsky 12:37, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The structure of the article

The structure came about as a result of the mediation of Snowspinner, which ended four months of incessant edit wars. The first section of the article is comprised of views of LaRouche that his supporters, such as myself, consider most important. The second section is comprised of views, or in some cases alleged views, that anti-LaRouche activists such as yourself, Slim, prefer to emphasize. I have re-worked the subject headers to make this more explicit. Please do not move your edits into the first section without first presenting an argument on this talk page as to why the present structure is unfair or misleading. The present structure came about as a result of much hard work and compromise. --Herschelkrustofsky 16:14, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Facts about LaRouche & Democracy

I posted:

"He does not currently appear to advocate the abolition of democracy or the imposition of authoritarian rule."

Herschelkrustofsky changed this to:

"He has never publicly advocated the abolition of democracy or the imposition of authoritarian rule."

Here are quotes from LaRouche:

___

"We shall end the rule of irrationalist episodic majorities, of British liberal notions of 'democracy.'"

"Creating a Republican Labor Party" Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., Citizens for LaRouche Policy Statement, c. 1980

This indicates LaRouche's preference for a Constitutional Republic, Chip, as opposed to, for example, the tactics of Arnold Schwarzenneger, who wishes to bypass the California State legislature by running lots of deceptive initiative campaigns. To extrapolate from that LaRouche wants to abolish democracy or impose authoritarian rule is sophistry, of the type that has earned you the bad reputation among serious opponents of authoritarianism. --H.K. 22:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

___

"America must be cleansed for its righteous war by the immediate elimination of the Nazi Jewish Lobby and other British agents from the councils of government, industry, and labor."

"A War-winning Strategy", Editorial, New Solidarity, March 1978

It would appear that someone is taking LaRouche's advice right now, given that AIPAC has been raided for the second time in several months. And although I know you wish to insinuate that this quote is anti-Semitic, what does it have to do with democracy or authoritarianism? --H.K. 22:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

___

LaRouche wrote that history would not judge harshly those who beat homosexuals to death with baseball bats to stop the spread of AIDS.

He did? When and in what publication did he do that? --H.K. 22:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche: "Can we imagine anything more viciously sadistic than the Black Ghetto mother?"

Please provide a reference for this quote, so that the context may be established. --H.K. 22:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Larouche 1973 memo to members, reported in Wasington Post, 1/14/1985 --Cberlet 04:29, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
1. What is the context?
2. What does it have to do with democracy? Weed Harper 06:54, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche wrote that most Chinese people are "approximating the lower animal species" by manifesting a "paranoid personality....a parallel general form of fundamental distinction from actual human personalities."

Please provide a reference for this quote, so that the context may be established. And having done that, please explain how these purported quotes represent an advocacy of authoritarianism. --H.K. 22:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

___

So I think it is legitimate to suggest that in the past LaRouche has written material that seems "to advocate the abolition of democracy or the imposition of authoritarian rule."

But perhaps it should be "In the past LaRouche has scoffed at parliamentary democracy, suggested the appropriateness of physically attacking his political enemies, and issued racist staements about Blacks and Chinese."

Is that a more neutral Point of View given LaRouche's past quotes? --Cberlet 23:17, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chip, you can include any material that is properly referenced. In the case of quoting LaRouche, you'd have to be able to provide either a link to that quote, or a date and name of publication. If you're providing a more general criticism of LaRouche, without an actual quote, you'd have to provide the name and date of a reputable publication (Washington Post, just as an example). So long as you stick to those rules (see Wikipedia:cite sources and Wikipedia:verifiability), you can use the material, and if Herschelkrustofsky reverts it, you can change it back again. He is not allowed to delete properly referenced material, and he is not allowed to insert material of his own that is not properly referenced. Slim 23:35, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)
I need to dig up some of my archives to get some of the cites, then I will edit the page and provide links to a list of cites.--Cberlet 06:13, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Here is a longer version of the quote that I argue shows that LaRouche has, at least in the past, dismissed the idea of electoral democracy:
" ‘Democracy’ is like a farm without a farmer, in which the chickens, sheep, cows, horses and pigs form ‘constituencies’ according to Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau or John Stuart Mill. Each constituency is but a collection of beasts, each with special ‘self-interests’ defined as animals might define self interests. The highest level of law in such a democratic animal farm is the ‘social contracts’ among these bestial constituencies.
The human species is not a collection of chickens, cows, pigs, sheep and so forth. Therefore, ‘pluralism’ and other British notions of ‘democracy’ are fit only for British aristocrats, not for self-respecting human beings such as the citizens of the United States.
The essence of republican organization, including republican parties, is the mobilization of a majority of the citizens as a conscious force engaged in direct deliberation of the policymaking of the nation, of discovering which policies are in fact currently in the interest of the nation and its posterity. By creating a republican labor party of such trade unionists and ethnic minorities, we shall end the rule of irrationalist episodic majorities, of British liberal notions of ‘democracy.’ "
Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. “Creating a Republican Labor Party.” Citizens for LaRouche, circa 1980.
I think this cleary is evidence of LaRouche's disdain for electoral democracy. Comments? --Cberlet 21:34, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have two comments: first, that LaRouche appeared to be aware of the danger of Newt Gingrich and his "Contract with America" a decade and a half before Gingrich became prominent. Second, that your argument, that this quote represents evidence of a "disdain for electoral democracy", is a joke. LaRouche is talking about organizing labor and minorities, who have been ignored by the dominant parties for decades, and bringing them into "direct deliberation of the policymaking of the nation." You find that undemocratic? Weed Harper 01:16, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Train meeting claims by LaRouchites

Much of the LaRouche material about the Train meetings is simply a series of unsubstantiated claims that are not linked by logic to their conclusions. The affidavit by Quinde is simply his point of view. An affidavit not tested in court is not a proof. As I have mentioned on several other LaRouche-linked pages, I propose moving all the discussion of the Train meetings to one page so that it can be debated and edited in one place. --Cberlet 06:13, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The essential facts about the meetings are undisputed: a whole gaggle of LaRouche's opponents got together at Train's home, talked about LaRouche, and then trotted off to write articles accusing him of various things. Chip characterizes the meeting he attended as a "debate", but the thing that I find most revealing about the meetings is the "strange bedfellows" aspect, particularly because Chip is always denouncing certain leftwingers for consorting with certain rightwingers -- and Chip does not deny (see Talk:Chip Berlet) that his travel expenses to attend his particular Train Salon meeting were paid by the representative of the John Birch Society. --HK 15:25, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Rees was not a representative of the John Birch Society. That's just false. I am willing to debate the Train meeting text, but not spread across many pages. This page is already over length. Moving details to United States v. LaRouche --Cberlet 16:14, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Just how would you describe Rees, then? See [2].
The Train meetings are essential to understanding the controversy about LaRouche's views, and must not be deleted from this article -- or the one about Chip Berlet. --HK 16:35, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Rees was then with the Maldon Institute, not the JBS, a group with which he no longer worked.--Cberlet 16:48, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
After digging through my archives, I found that in 1985 Rees was with Mid-Atlantic Research Associates, which may have turned into the Maldon Institute, or may coexist as a Rees project. Hard to tell.

Herschelkrustofsky Interference

Herschelkrustofsky's reversion is unfair and creates much repetition. This page was over length. The discussion of the Train meeting belongs in the United States v. LaRouche page because the LaRouche people themselves claim it is central to his prosecution, a claim that is disputed. It makes no sense to have the same material on two or three pages. My edit included a mention of the Train meeting and a link to its new location United States v. LaRouche. This is blatant pro-LaRouche propaganda and interference; not fair and accurate editing. I protest. --Cberlet 16:56, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have noted on the talk page for United States v. LaRouche that I don't think the Train material is needed on that page. Bear in mind that 6 months ago, there was only one article, of modest length; the present, relatively voluminous set of articles was the result of extensive negotiations and compromise, in order to bring fierce edit wars to a close. I asked that the Train material be included in Political views of Lyndon LaRouche, because that was where the majority of the propagandistic slurs and unfounded speculation, coming from Berlet and others, was posted, and the Train material helps explain the discrepancy between LaRouche's stated views, and those imputed to him by his critics. The inclusion of the Train material was essentially part of a compromise which also included the inclusion of material from Berlet and from the International Workers Party. The edit wars over LaRouche articles have largely subsided since early October, and I would certainly prefer that it remain that way. --HK 22:00, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Only a tiny handful of LaRouche followers and an even smaller group of conspiracy buffs thinks the Train material is important. This page is already too long. The Train material has been moved to United States v. LaRouche.--Cberlet 00:52, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
More unfair conduct by HK. If we are going to be forced to debate the Train meeting material, it should only be on one page. HK keeps placing it on several pages. This is not fair. It has no value on this page. It is just another place where HK wants to engage in a personal attack on me.--Cberlet 13:53, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I am deleting the duplicate material on all pages except the Train meeting page. --Cberlet 13:53, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Chip appears to be attempting to whitewash his role in the whole LaRouche affair. Since this article serves as a forum of sorts for the scurrilous attacks of Chip and his colleagues, some minimal discussion of LaRouche's critics is essential. It is not "duplicate material" -- it is a succinct description, linked to an article with more detail. --HK 16:01, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A succinct description seems like it would also mention that the idea has minimal respect outside of LaRouche followers, no? Snowspinner 16:22, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not certain how you could document that -- perhaps by conducting a scientific opinion poll? -- but you could certainly say that the characterization of the meetings is disputed by LaRouche's opponents, as is clear in the Train article. --22:26, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have serious trouble believing the alternative, which is that the Train theory is widely accepted. Regardless, it seems a major enough point that it ought to be mentioned whenever the Train theory is brought up. Snowspinner 23:53, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Berlet

It is clear to me that Berlet is trying to hijack Wikipedia to promote his (ahem) commercial endeavors. The Train Meetings material never should have been removed from Political views of Lyndon LaRouche. Berlet wants to promote his POV by quoting from his own website (SlimVirgin take note: Wikipedia prohibits original research) and he wants to ban any scrutiny of his role as a quote unquote "researcher." There is absolutely no reason for a seperate article on the Train Salon. Weed Harper 22:31, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree completely about the original research point, and I agree that it's not appropriate for Chip to be editing these articles, but it's also not appropriate for LaRouche supporters to be editing them, for the same reasons, and my suspicion is that Chip is doing so only to stop unverified claims being inserted by others. I also agree that there shouldn't be an article on these meetings, but regardless of whether the material is on a separate page, or part of a Lyndon LaRouche article, the details of the John Train meetings should be verified by third-party publications. The ArbCom allows LaRouche publications to be used in LaRouche-related articles, but doesn't say they can be used exclusively.
I also fail to see the relevance of the meetings. So far, a bunch of journalists has met with a bunch of sources to discuss a person (LaRouche) regarded by large numbers of people as dangerous. There's nothing unusual about that. It would become unusual if those journalists were persuaded to broadcast or publish false material, wittingly or otherwise, as a result of those meetings. But that has not been shown. Even if you read LaRouche's own publications, it has not been shown.
Weed, I was wondering, regarding your edit to Dennis King, who is Mark Evans and where that piece was published? Also, the NBC programs alleging that LaRouche was plotting to kill Kissinger, and that he may have been involved in Olaf Palme's death: Does anyone know how we can verify that these broadcasts took place, and that they made these claims, apart from obtaining transcripts from NBC? Slim 22:57, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Although I think that the case against Chip Berlet editing articles on himself is slightly better than the case against LaRouche supporters editing articles on LaRouche, I think the real point to be made here is that editing to advance a point of view is bad. Snowspinner 03:46, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
I first got involved with Wikipedia in an article on Mussolini. I would prefer not to edit any material on myself. But here is the problem. I started to get email from people saying outrageous claims about me were showing up on the web all over the world, sometimes in foreign languages. These turned out to be websites porting over entries posted by LaRouche supporters on Wikipedia. I never expected to find anything about myself on Wikipedia. I write encyclopedia articles for the academic print press; I do not think I belong in a serious encyclopedia entry, except perhaps as a published expert on apocalypticism, neofascism, and right-wing populism.
It is easy to dismiss the material published by LaRouche. He has been attacking me for years. He is a convicted crook and his views are frankly lunatic conspiracy theories that few people on the planet have ever heard of and even fewer believe in. But Wikipedia has earned a reputation for solid research and an attempt to be fair and accurate through group process. The LaRouchite claims on Wikipedia were not just false, but defamatory in the sense that they call into question my integity as a journalist; and if they remained unchallenged they could hurt my ability to sell freelance articles. I was never involved with SDS. I worked for the National Student Association years after the CIA was exposed and booted out. LaRouchites posted false data about both these matters. Meanwhile, in the discussion pages, even more vicious personal attacks were being posted for public scrutiny.
A few LaRouche supporters continue to flagrantly and repeatedly violate the ground rules of Wikipedia, and continue to post unsubstantiated rumor and attacks on me as if they were based on serious research. If you saw that the other Wikipedians were not dealing with such a situation, what would you do if it were aimed at you? If Wikipedia enforced its own rules and standards I would not need to be involved in these tiresome disputes.--Cberlet 04:37, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What Chip has written above is very true, and I suggest that a few Wikipedia editors of good faith get together here and do something about it. There have been a number of problems with LaRouche editors over the last few months, some of which I've been involved in, and some not, so I don't know the details of each dispute. But they all boil down to unverifiable claims, and Wikipedia is opposed to that, regardless of POV. When the disputed claims are in articles about the Schiller Institute or Frederick Wills, for example, it's very irritating to have them in Wikipedia, but at least the claims are usually not causing direct harm. However, in this case, a real, live individual is arguably being damaged, which is unfair and unencyclopedic, so we have a responsibility to sort it out. Even when claims are deleted, they're often cached by Google, and some very contemptuous claims have also been made on Talk pages.

Herschel and Weed, I am asking you here to volunteer to stop editing this article (or rather, to stop editing the references in it to Chip), and also to stop editing Chip Berlet, Dennis King, Political Research Associates and John Train Salon, and to allow others to edit them into some kind of NPOV state; and also to stop inserting references to Chip into other articles. Will you agree to that proposal? Chip, if Herschel and Weed agree to stop editing these articles, and provided other editors are working to NPOV them, will you also stop editing them? Slim 06:01, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that seems fair. Thanks. --Cberlet 13:07, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have a problem with that, Slim, because despite your protestations to the contrary, I regard you as an anti-LaRouche POV editor, and I would not trust you to edit these articles into "some kind of NPOV state." I still regard your Jeremiah Duggan article as the introduction of an unfounded, anti-LaRouche conspiracy theory (I had to crack a smile the other day when I saw you refer, on one of these talk pages, to affidavits as a tool of conspiracy theorists; when the British government wants to promote a conspiracy theory, they use an inquest.)

With respect to Chip's lengthy and pious statement about how he only edits Wikipedia because he must defend himself against unsubstantiated rumor and attacks, I originally started editing Wikipedia because I thought someone should defend LaRouche against unsubstantiated rumor and attacks (much of which originated with Berlet). I have also edited other articles, for example the ones having to do with Manuel Noriega, because they were being used as vehicles for propaganda. I think that the best insurance that these articles stay in "some kind of NPOV state" would be to attract and engage relatively neutral editors; I think Snowspinner falls into that category, despite his acknowledged opposition to LaRouche. Perhaps DanKeshet, when he returns from vacation, will do as well. But I cannot reliquish my option of stepping in if something really off the charts, like Berlet's attempt to suppress the Train material, transpires. --HK 15:25, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Please, HK, stop the personal attacks on me. You are violating Wikipedia policy. If you have any evidence that there is factually false text in any of my articles on LaRouche, please cite them. Otherwise, I have a right to my opinion about LaRouche. Some of my articles on LaRouche have appeared in mainstream or reliable alternative publications. Most of your claims about LaRouche originate in LaRouche publications and websites. The LaRouche material is a marginal view of reality, and to claim that the LaRouche material should have the same space to provide an NPOV here is simply not correct and not based on Wickipedia standards. At best, on Wikipedia, LaRouche claims should be mentioned in one article on him, in which the widespread criticism of him by journalists across the political spectrum provides the bulk of the text. This page on the Political views of Lyndon LaRouche should be deleted, as should the page on the so-called John Train Salon; as should the many other pages created to extol the views and allies of LaRouche. I propose this page be deleted. Let's discuss this proposal. --Cberlet 20:11, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Chip, none of the comments attributed to you in this article are factual in nature; they are all theories that you propound, things that fall under that category of "POV speculation". I have often wondered what your motive is for this stuff, since I am certain that, in the process of combing through LaRouche's writings in search of quotes to be taken out of context, that you have read enough of LaRouche to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that all that the names you call him, such as "fascist", "anti-Semite", and so on, are completely without foundation. As to why your theories have been promoted in "mainstream or reliable alternative publications", I think the Train Salon material provides an insight. LaRouche's publications certainly enjoy a wider readership, and arguably a greater degree of respect, than yours; yet you have no apparent inhibitions about hurling all manner of insults at LaRouche.
With respect to your proposal that this page be deleted, this page was created by an opponent of LaRouche, User:AndyL. The better part of the page is devoted to criticism of LaRouche; your description of it as a page "created to extol the views and allies of LaRouche" is ridiculous. The NPOV policy at Wikipedia is designed to prevent Wikipedia from becoming a vehicle for any particular brand of propaganda, and since, as User:Snowspinner observed in the introduction he wrote for this article, there is virtually no actually neutral material available on LaRouche's views, Wikipedia is providing a service by at least giving the reader an opportunity to review the differences between the characterizations of LaRouche's views by his supporters and detractors. --HK 21:48, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Okay, so Chip has agreed to the proposal, but Herschelkrustofsky does not agree, and Weed Harper has not responded. Willmcw and I are going to try to start by editing Chip Berlet and make it NPOV. Herschel, that is not an article "closely related" to LaRouche within the terms of ArbCom, so you are not allowed to engage in an edit war by reinserting LaRouche material. The fact that Chip has been a LaRouche critic will not be left out but it is not his only defining feature. Chip, can you direct us to any published material about yourself, good or bad, apart from LaRouche publications? Herschel, can you direct us to any non-LaRouche published material about Chip? Slim 22:54, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

Slim, your proposal is meaningless unless you also offer not to edit LaRouche related articles, because you are an anti-LaRouche editor. Also, you do not propose that Berlet stop editing articles on LaRouche. Also, there is no LaRouche-sourced material in the Berlet article, so what are you going to remove? Weed Harper 01:24, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I am not an "anti-LaRouche editor". You've decided to smear me with a label in the same way you smear people like Chip Berlet and Dennis King, and anyone else who stands up against you, because you've learned the LaRouche way of marginalizing, stigmatizing and discrediting people by erecting signposts over their names. Your tactics won't work on Wikipedia. My edit history speaks for itself, as does yours.

My position on LaRouche is clear and simple: I do not regard LaRouche publications as credible sources, and I follow Wikipedia policy of using only reputable, published sources.

Do not label me again in relation to LaRouche. I find it deeply insulting. Slim 02:52, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

Let's put it this way, Slim. On the basis of your edit history, if this were a trial, as it seems to be, you would most certainly be asked to recuse yourself. --HK 15:42, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Look at the histories of Lyndon LaRouche, Political views of Lyndon LaRouche, and United States v. LaRouche, and see how few edits I've made to those pages. My main concern is that unsubstantiated LaRouche claims should not spill over into other pages. It's not that they come from LaRouche that I object to them. It's because they're almost always unsubstantiated, and even when you and Weed Harper take material from Larouche publications, you often take it further than they do. Please stop personalizing everything and concentrate on content and on finding decent sources. Slim 16:03, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

Return of the John Train material

HK, moving an article and rewriting made it impossible to see what you had changed. I don't object to merging the articles, but please do it in steps so we can follow your work. We're not as smart as you are. ;) Cheers, -Willmcw 07:22, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Here is a detailed summary of my edits, because I don't have all night. My critics will have changed everything before long, anyway.
    • I retained, from the orginal version in the "Views" article, AndyL's rebuttal material (which did not appear in the "Salon" article), where Andy argues that much criticism of LHL came after the electoral victories in Illinois. I also retained the rebuttal to Andy's rebuttal, which points out that Pat Lynch, producer of much post-Illinois stuff, was an alleged Train Salon attendee. In this version, we solve the riddle of the "two NBC programs in that year" that was troubling Slim when it appeared in the "Salon" version.
    • I did not retain, from the "Salon" article, Slim's obligatory quote from the ADL about how LaRouche is an antisemitic SOB, since that duplicates material already in the "Views" article.
    • I used the list format from "Salon" in presenting the alleged attendees. I think it provides greater clarity.
    • I provided slightly new characterizations of Berlet and King ("generally regarded as leftists") and Rees ("generally regarded as a rightist.") I think that those are NPOV descriptions, but I'm prepared for all sorts of contention.
    • I attribute the various NBC programs cited to a media log kept by LaRouche researchers.
    • I dropped the external links from "Salon" because they aren't really appropriate to the longer "views" article, or are duplicates. Put them back if you like.

--HK 07:52, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

HK, Thanks for listing what you changed. That's a lot! I think some of this stuff was discussed in the previous article, so just changing it here, as part of the merge, isn't the best way to build consensus among editors. If you feel that the material needs to be cut down because it is too long, maybe it should be in an article of its own? (Just kidding). Anyway, let's start rom where we arrived in the old article and build on that. This is a collaborative effort and I'm sure we all appreciate having respect for the process. Thanks for your contributions. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:04, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Herschel, I removed some unreferenced parts of your edit. (1) The reference to intelligence agents being present is not shown. You've quoted the Quinde affidavit, which mentions Berlet's claim that he was introduced to gentlemen from . . . I forget the phrase. There's no indication that the Quinde affidavit goes further than that; (2) The LaRouche media log: Can you show where it describes the contents of the programs because I can't find a reference to this anywhere? My apologies f it's obvious and I missed it. (3) Where you say "LaRouche supporters" believe the odd mix of people at the meeting etc. If by "LaRouche supporters," you mean a LaRouche publication, could you provide a short quote where it says that, just to be clear? Many thanks, Slim 16:59, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

HK, thanks for taking the edits a little slower. As you predicted, some were not agreeable to everyone. I'm also curious to see this "LaRouche organization media log". Cheers, -Willmcw 19:30, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There Was no reference to "intelligence agents" being present. There was a reference to "the presence of persons such as Godson and Lansky Boland who have documented connections to the intelligence community," Godson being a consultant to PFIAB, and Lansky Boland being a former CIA employee. No mystery there. The media log is here. You also removed the reference to Rees writing for JBS publications, which is amply documented -- you want footnotes? And you also continue to remove, without explanation, the discussion of Mellon Scaife. It belongs there. As far as "LaRouche supporters" is concerned, I will replace that with "representatives of LaRouche's 2004 campaign," which issued the statement on the Train Salon. --HK 23:46, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm finding it hard to believe that NBC accused LaRouche in three separate broadcasts of planning to kill President Carter, of planning to kill Henry Kissinger, and of having killed Olaf Palme. Perhaps they said he had been investigated or something, but for them actually to have accused him? If they did, there are bound to be non-LaRouche sources for this on the Internet, so would you mind providing one or two?
Mellon Scaife: I can't remember what you said about him, and I can't get check because the page won't load, but it was something extreme and unproven. If you could always supply references, these discussions would be unnecessary, because then other editors could simply click on them, and wouldn't have to bother you. Readers could do the same. Many thanks, Slim 00:05, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

Berlet again

I just reverted a number of edits by Berlet which were rife with POV speculation, quotes out of context, and quotes which I suspect are simply invented. I have been complying, informally, with Slim's request that I not edit the Berlet article, and I have done so with the expectation that Berlet would make no further attempts to vandalize this one. --HK 23:46, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Herschel, regarding the deal about editing the pages, you turned it down. So as things stand, it's only the Chip Berlet article that Chip isn't editing, and LaRouche material or POV can't be inserted into that article anyway, as it isn't "closely related." Slim 00:11, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the source on the NBC/Palme allegation. Regarding CBerlet, his edits do not appear to be vandalism. You may not agree with them, but vandalism is something else entirely. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:51, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Also, you deleted some material quoting LaRouche, commenting that you thought it was a misquote. Rather than deleting it can you please correct it, provide the context, etc? Cheers, -Willmcw 00:01, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would like Chip to provide the context, on this talk page, before re-inserting it, since he presumably claims to have the original hard copies of the documents he purports to quote. If the context demonstrates that he is not misrepresenting the quotes, I will search out the originals to verify it. --HK 00:26, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean by "context"? He has given the referencs, which are to Larouche publications. Typing the entire article would be excessive. By "context" do you mean whether it is an interview, and if so the question? The title of the article? What is it that you want? Cheers, -Willmcw 01:06, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Herschel, I feel we're at a crucial point here regarding sources. I applaud your attention to detail regarding the quotes from Chip,. You're well within your rights to want to know a bit more about the context in which these things were said. I mean that very sincerely. I don't fault you for it at all. However, can't you see that you need to apply the same standards to the various claims and quotes that you provide? You and Weed often provide quotes with no citations at all, or makes claims without quoting. Every citation has to be dragged out of you, and often you can only point to LaRouche sources; sometimes not even those. Can I please ask that, from now, everyone adopt an encylopedic standard for sourcing, regardless of our POV or of other people's: that we simply reference all our substantial edits to appropriate, reputable sources, or at least he prepared to do so if we are challenged. If everyone would do that, these disputes would melt away. Slim 02:28, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
It is outrageous to suggest I am inventing quotes. I have the original documents for all the quotes that I am citing. I work at a library archive. I have over 35,000 pages of material by and about Lyndon LaRouche and his affiliated groups. Every time I am challenged about the accuracy of a LaRouche quote on Wikipedia, I will not only fully document the quote, but I will also dig into the archive and post on the PRA website another quote documenting my claims that LaRouche is a fascist, antisemitic, racist, sexist, homophobic, crackpot, and crook. I am scanning these quotes using a text recognition program. Visit the growing collection at [3]. I suggest folks visit the page and then we can discuss the sourcing and context. --Cberlet 03:35, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I visited the page and found what appears to be exactly what you inserted into the Wikipedia article. --HK 13:48, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for providing that information, Chip. It's very helpful. Personally, I'm happy with the quotes about gays and AIDS, as you've given complete citations, which Herschel can now check the originals of, if he wants to:

  • Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., “The End of the Age of Aquarius?", Executive Intelligence Review, January 10, 1986, p. 40
  • Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., “Teenage Gangs’ Lynchings of Gays is Foreseen Soon,” New Solidarity, February 9, 1987, p. 8

I'm less happy abour the democracy citation, because it's without a date (Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. “Creating a Republican Labor Party.” Citizens for LaRouche, circa 1980), so it would be hard for Herschel to find. Slim 06:17, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

The “Creating a Republican Labor Party” booklet is undated itself, but I will post a gif of the cover and page on which the quote appears on Monday at the PRA website with a link at: [4]. I will reinsert that quote here at that time. I have reinserted the LaRouche quotes on assaulting gay people because HK not only deleted those quotes, but then proceeded to rewrite the entire gay section into a form of LaRouche propaganda. HK calls LaRouche propaganda NPOV? I urge everyone to compare the two versions. It is a prime example of why HK should not be allowed to continue to edit these pages. His bias is clear. I do not dispute I am a critic of LaRouche, but I am a published expert on LaRouche. HK is an anonymous LaRouche supporter with a long history of posting material that cannnot be verified. It is not fair to allow HK to challenge every quote I insert, and then allow him to delete these quotes and pad the article with material that is 100% supportive of LaRouche. As stated previously, my initial goal is to see that every article that mentions LaRouche is brought to the point where it contains no more than 50% unverified and unchallenged LaRouche propaganda. Of course, in the real world, an encyclopedia entry that contained more than 50% unverified and unchallenged LaRouche propaganda would not exist. It would be outrageous. I suspect that it exists on Wikipedia because serious editors have grown tired of the relentless bullying and wheedling of LaRouche supporters. Of course, this is the type of tactic typical of LaRouche supporters that I have written about for decades. At some point Wikipedia as a community will come to realize that it has to continue to take steps to protect itself from this type of relentless attack on the credibility of Wikipedia. Once is not enough. Also, as promised, I have added another quote from the LaRouche group documenting my allegations. As I said before, Every time I am challenged about the accuracy of a LaRouche quote on Wikipedia, I will not only fully document the quote, but I will also dig into the archive and post a new one. I have a right to defend my reputation until Wikipedia finds a way to resolve this situation. I have faith that in the long run, the Wikipedia community will arrive at a solution that will be both fair and ethical. The current situation is neither. --Cberlet 14:29, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Just as I suspected

The material inserted by Berlet did in fact quote LaRouche out of context, to the effect of making it appear that LaRouche was expressing a view opposite to that which he intended. The full passage is quoted here, with the sections omitted by Berlet in bold:

'Civil rights' to kill
"What was the problem? The problem was the cultural paradigm shift. If someone comes up and says, "Yeah, but you can't interfere with the civil rights of an AIDS victim"-- what the devil is this? You can't interfere with an AIDS victim killing hundreds of people, by spreading the disease to hundreds of people, which will kill them, during the period before he himself dies? So therefore, should we allow people with guns to go out and shoot people as they choose? Isn't that a matter of the civil rights of gun carriers? Or, if you've got an ax-- if you can't aim too well, and just have an ax or a broad sword-- shouldn't we allow people with broad swords and axes to go out and kill people indiscrimately as they choose, as a matter of their civil rights?
"Where did this nonsense come from? Oh, we don’t want to offend the gays! Gays are sensitive to their civil rights; this will lead to discrimination against gays!
"They’re already beating up gays with baseball bats around the country! Children are going to playgrounds, they go in with baseball bats, and they find one of these gays there, pederasts, trying to recruit children, and they take their baseball bats and they beat them up pretty bad. They’ll kill one sooner or later. In Chicago, they’re beating up gays that are hanging around certain schools, pederasts; children go out with baseball bats and beat them up which is perfectly moral; they have the civil right to do that! It’s a matter of children’s civil rights!"

In other words, in case there is someone here who doesn't get it, LaRouche is making the point that if public health officials cannot intervene to prevent someone from transmitting AIDS through sexual contact, because transmitting AIDS through sexual contact is considered a "civil right," then the same illogic could be used to justify all sorts of violent crimes, even those perpetrated by homophobes. The entire passage quoted by Berlet is meant ironically, as is clear from the previous, omitted passage.

No, Herschel, you've got that wrong. The section you have added only confirms that Berlet's interpretation is correct. LaRouche is comparing people with AIDS to people with guns. He is arguing that, because people with guns are restricted, people with AIDS should be restricted, because both are just as dangerous. He further argues that, as gay people are being attacked anyway (he says), by children and others, it would therefore help gays if government were to step in and act in some way e.g. by restricting people with AIDS who, he seems to indicate, may also be pederasts. (This is necessarily a tentative summary, as what LaRouche is saying is insane and therefore hard to sum up). Slim 21:54, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)


[Herschelkrustofsy continues:] Berlet not only quotes the passage out of context, but reinforces the misleading impression by stating that LaRouche was "writing that people who physically attack gay people are merely exercising their civil rights." From this I draw the following conclusions:

  • Any Wikipedia edit by Berlet should be given the closest scrutiny, because he has a history of this sort of deception
  • Since the material inserted yesterday by Berlet was lifted verbatim from his website, he should be reminded that Wikipedia does not allow the insertion of original research
  • Since the cited material on his website is deliberately misleading, Berlet's website should not be considered a reputable source unless it can be corroborated.

--HK 21:35, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You're twisting what "original research" means. This is an article about Lyndon LaRouche. Lyndon LaRouche said these things. Chip Berlet has given a full citation from a LaRouche publication. It was an accurate citation because you were able to find it. Therefore, this is perfectly legitimate material for Wikipedia. Whether Chip ALSO places this on the PRA website is completely irrevelant and does not make it original research.

As a matter of interest, as the LaRouche publication material was not online, and was from several years ago, how were you able to find it so quickly? Slim 21:54, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

Like Chip, I also have access to an archive of back EIR issues. But I hope you aren't implying that Chip's distortion of the context was an innocent mistake; the same deliberate deception is on his website, making it, to my mind, an unreliable source. --HK 22:11, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree that he distorted the context. I reverted back to Will's version. I feel you should stop editing these articles now, as you're trying to stop LaRouche's own words from appearing in an article about LaRouche, which means you're acting against Wikipedia's interests. You're also seeking to discredit people who know enough about LaRouche to be in a position to write about him accurately and comprehensively. Chip is right about LaRouche activists having worn down successive Wikipedia editors through "bullying and wheedling", as he puts it, and it has to stop. As you wanted the context of the gay quote to appear, I've added the paragraph you provided. I also deleted the interpretation of the quote, which you objected to, because it said that LaRouche was saying it was okay to attack people with AIDS. Below is what I added. Readers can make up their own minds regarding what it means. Slim 22:20, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

"In 1986, LaRouche wrote the following about gay people, AIDS and civil rights:
"What was the problem? The problem was the cultural paradigm shift. If someone comes up and says, "Yeah, but you can't interfere with the civil rights of an AIDS victim" — what the devil is this? You can't interfere with an AIDS victim killing hundreds of people, by spreading the disease to hundreds of people, which will kill them, during the period before he himself dies? So therefore, should we allow people with guns to go out and shoot people as they choose? Isn't that a matter of the civil rights of gun carriers? Or, if you've got an ax — if you can't aim too well, and just have an ax or a broad sword — shouldn't we allow people with broad swords and axes to go out and kill people indiscrimately as they choose, as a matter of their civil rights?
"Where did this nonsense come from? Oh, we don’t want to offend the gays! Gays are sensitive to their civil rights; this will lead to discrimination against gays!
"They’re already beating up gays with baseball bats around the country! Children are going to playgrounds, they go in with baseball bats, and they find one of these gays there, pederasts, trying to recruit children, and they take their baseball bats and they beat them up pretty bad. They’ll kill one sooner or later. In Chicago, they’re beating up gays that are hanging around certain schools, pederasts; children go out with baseball bats and beat them up—which is perfectly moral; they have the civil right to do that! It’s a matter of children’s civil rights!"
Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., "The End of the Age of Aquarius?" EIR (Executive Intelligence Review), January 10, 1986, p. 40.

Chip has access to an EIR archive at PRA because he's a researcher. Where and why do you have access to one? And if you have access to this material, why haven't you been adding some of these LaRouche quotes yourself? Slim 22:22, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

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