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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mak82hyd (talk | contribs) at 00:46, 19 December 2006 (→Notability of Ali Sina and FFI). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 5 Dec 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Template:WikiProject Criticism of Islam

WP:WEB

How does this website meet WP:WEB? BhaiSaab talk 13:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:WEB web-specific content is notable if:

  1. The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper and magazine articles, books, television documentaries, and published reports by consumer watchdog organizations, except for the following:
    1. Media re-prints of press releases and advertising for the content or site.
    2. Trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that simply report the internet address, the times at which such content is updated or made available, a brief summary of the nature of the content or the publication of internet addresses and site or content descriptions in internet directories or online stores.
  2. The website or content has won a notable independent award from either a publication or organisation.(If I start lying against the religions, like Christianity, I can also get this award! This is a notable criminal website. They just lie. Just see the Zakir Naik's debate with William Cambell and this website is protecting the William. The say that the William arguments were GREAT, yet they dont have the video on their website!!!)
  3. The content is distributed via a site which is both well known and independent of the creators, either through an online newspaper or magazine, an online publisher, or an online broadcaster.(The people who crusified the Jesus may be more popular then this group of liers. Have you any popularity award for them?)

--TruthSpreaderTalk 13:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Agree -- not notable enough to merit this article. What do other people think? BYT 16:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Im still waiting for RS that establish N. --Striver 16:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FFI has received some media attention, and that makes the organization notable. -- Karl Meier 17:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It would be "trivial coverage." See WP:WEB. BhaiSaab talk 17:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the links (including a malformed one) that are focused on criticism of Ali Sina because as all have mentioned we are not focusing on Ali Sina - this is about FaithFreedom International and adding too many links critical of Ali Sina is an undue weight towards him. He is notable in his own right but that issue isn't the subject of this article. Criticism of him needs to be on his page. Oops hello thats right you got his page removed. That's a shame really so you can't deem him to be unworthy of a wikipedia page BUT then have the same people feel that it's worthy that many links are added back in that criticise him. Ttiotsw 09:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Faithfreedom is nothing without Ali Sina. Actually, faithfreedom is the Ali Sina. Criticising Ali Sina is equivalent to criticising faith freedom. How many lies you want to know that Ali Sina and faith freedom tell you? r u interested?

Maybe we should take this page, its AfD, etc. to RfC

I have noticed numerous instances among us of failing to be WP:CIVIL. Why don't we take a breather, Muslims, Kaffirs, Jews, and Christians, and reason it out? FFI is notable because it is a nexus of criticism of Islam, especially through its message board. Should it matter that various pro-Islam sites overshadow it? WP:WEB is a useful guide, but sometimes it fails to truly determine notability, especially if smaller groups with unique arguments are involved. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article should be deleted(See this discussion please and give ur reponse)

Hey Guys i think this article should be deleted. it just shows a website and its motto. I think its not needed in wikipedia please lets discuss why its needed. if it is needed only because it was on alexa rankings in top 30000 website once in last yr. then please tell me, can i make articles on islamonline.net (which is in top 1000 ranking), islam-qa.com(top 10000),islamicity.com(top 10000) and many . I will start building article on this website organisation soon. Mak82hyd 18:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that update. I've updated the link to the new site ( now http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/ ) BTW: for a list of authors see, http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=4&page=1 so some work to backfill on who they are and get some summaries for the page. Ttiotsw 20:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"can i make articles on islamonline.net (which is in top 1000 ranking), islam-qa.com(top 10000),islamicity.com(top 10000) and many" Sure, please do that. The only thing is that I am afraid that you can't make a new article on IslamOnline, because we already got one. -- Karl Meier 11:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The link, http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&catid=&topic=19 , has a number of op-ed authors. Ideally we need to take each, check article and name and other sources for that name and see if its just page scrapping (RSS etc) or actual op-ed stuff (e.g. first Cinnamon Stillwell op-ed I saw looked like page scrape). And then the link http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=4&page=1 has author names who have contributed articles. Need to do the same and ideally post back here into talk what you find. That should (or not!) allow up to build up a inbound link from other notables sites back to faithfreedom and thus establish notability of faithfreedom. There is a lot of noise in those author lists but something should crop up though I think its just Ali Sina that is mainly verifiable (due to his contribution to Ibn Warraq's book Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out). Remember it is the "truth" but verify who said what and when and where. Ttiotsw 21:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removing unencyclopedic tag

This was added on the 18:02, 5 December 2006 by an user Truthspreader and then at 18:38, 5 December 2006 a since-banned (1 year) user BhaiSaab added the AfD nomination. This thus allowed just 36 minutes for anyone to get the article up to scratch. Given this was fallout from the article delete of related article for Ali Sina very soon before the flow of tags from unencyclopedic to AfD was not made in good faith. I have removed the unencyclopedic tag as it states, "An editor has expressed concern that this article may be unencyclopedic and ought to be deleted. This is a primarily a statement about the article's subject, not necessarily its quality or veracity. Please review what Wikipedia is not and try to resolve the objections on the talk page." ...and yet the subsequent AfD which proposed deletion and was rejected with "The result was no consensus to delete, reasonable argument that the site meets WP:WEB... but please improve referencing in article." means that the previous unencyclopedic tag that predates the AfD has been proven to not be valid as the admin says it satisfies WP:WEB. Ttiotsw 04:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removing notability tag

This tag was added by user Striver at 18:52, 5 December 2006 i.e. 14 minutes after the AfD and thus is related to the AfD. The admin closed the AfD with "The result was no consensus to delete, reasonable argument that the site meets WP:WEB... but please improve referencing in article." means that the previous notability tag that postdates the AfD and predates the conclusion has been proven to not be valid as the admin says it satisfies WP:WEB. Ttiotsw 04:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Adding web links. Please talk first then add after consensus.

An edit, [1] added a shedload of links to dodgy looking Islamic sites. Certainly not clear how they are notable. This adds undue weight to the opposing sites and less weight to what we are discussing which is Faith Freedom International and (indirectly the founder of that site Ali Sina). Ideally can we have a consensus that any link is first discussed here (each as a new subject) before it is added unless it is a reference used to add verifiability to the text. Ttiotsw 05:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Karl, when the article is about site whats wrong in giving its opposing sites as well. this is bias mate. when u wrote about ali sina in that article. these sites will become relevant and its opposing sites for FFI so they should stay there. I am reverting it. i hope u will understand. and please dont revert it Mak82hyd 01:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have just looked at the site as it presently stands, and am suprised to find the external link from the notable independent online news site WorldNetDaily about FaithFreedom.org is gone. I would like to see it restored. Here is the address of the article entitled "TESTING THE FAITH: Ex-Muslim's site trashes Muhammad; Founder challenges: Prove me wrong and I'll take down page" http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40473 74.102.58.135 02:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This link was deleted by Mak82hyd - I'm not surprised. I dont feel like contributing until Wikipedia has policies that deal ruthlessly with this kind of POV vandalism. You could go ahead and add that link back in. Good luck everyone, with the revert wars. I really feel though something should be done about the phenomena of POV vandalism. This is common everywhere in Wikipedia on all controversial articles, not just on topics on Islam. My suggestion is that once a topic reaches a nice quality, editing should be locked and people should only be able to make suggestions and only a few people who are authorized to make the changes should change, based on consensus reached. This will prevent POV vandalism and the Edit Wars. --Matt57 02:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Matt57. It looks like User:Sefringle handily accomplished the re-insertion needed. As for your suggestion, I hope you succeed in getting it put into policy. 74.102.58.135 06:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From the old Ali Sina page

We should look at the old Ali Sina page. See here. Not everything is relevant to this new page, but some of this stuff is. That stuff should be moved here.--Sefringle 21:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we should include the imformation about the debates on this article.--Sefringle 03:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, some information should be imported because te site is by its founder and we can have information on the founder. Looks like an anonymous IP imported a lot of that stuff. Lets see how much of that is filtered/censored out later. I hope you get the Mecca page into the article drive. It would be nice to see a page on that city which doesnt show that this is an exclusively Muslim/Islam related city. It should look like a normal any kind of city plus ofcourse it should include its importance to Islam but to be exclusively about Islam as it is right now, is not the best way. It would be interested to see what kind of changes can take place in that page to further this mission. --Matt57 19:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

matt, this not ali sina article, his views and himself are unnecessary and not notable thats why the page was deleted by admins. please respect their views and people who wants his views will go to his website from here which is shown. so le them decide to go and read if they think its something to read about. Mak82hyd 02:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can you first explain why you deleted the link to WorldnetDaily as I pointed out in the above section? --Matt57 03:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Now I've added the parts from the old website that I think are relevant.--Sefringle 09:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did not add the Views and observations and Ali Sina's Challenge sections, but I think part of them is relevant, but it needs editing. --Sefringle 09:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that was appropriate but we are back to the same old game Wikipedia is unable to handle. Edit wars and repeated POV vandalism; constant pulling of the article in either directions. This is just wrong, I mean Wikipedia's inability to handle this. Maybe it will help somewhat adding in materials little by little instead of in chunks to get past this constant censorship. --Matt57 13:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We have good external links for this article now

But we need more. Are there any more that can be found? This article is here to stay now. It was deleted in its prior Ali Sina form because of non-notability (no external links). I hope more links can be found to make this article comply even stronger to WP:WEB. If we had had those external links then, the article wouldnt have been deleted. I remember it was me who filled up somewhat this article with FFI's links - that was even pointed out by FayssalF. Now we need some more good links and references. --Matt57 13:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FFI's mention in Ibn Warraq's book - potential reference

In Warraq's book Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out, Appendex B titled "Ex-Muslims of the world unite", page 433, there is a whole 3 page section on FFI. It mentions its website URL and mission statement. This is a valid mention of FFI, so I think this could be a reference for the article. The page range is 433-436. Although this is FFI's mission statement from its website quoted in full and is not a description by Ibn Warraq. This reference can atleast be added to the references. Ali Sina's own testimony of leaving Islam is in page 137-157 of this book. This can also be a reference. The title of his testimony is: Why I left Islam-My passage from faith to enlightenment.--Matt57 14:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

the part about FFI can be refrenced in this article, but the part about Ali Sina's testimony of leaving Islam is not relevant, as this article is not about Ali Sina, but about FFI.--Sefringle 06:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As Ali Sina is the founder of FFI Then he can be mentioned. Obviously he can't be mentioned in other articles unless it is specific to the subject. He is notable. An example for you would be like saying that Bahá'u'lláh cannot be mentioned in an article on Bahá'í as the subject is only about Bahá'í. That doesn't make sense as the ideals and background of the founder of 'x' are relevant to an article on 'x'. Obviously I chose Bahá'í as they too are hunted and killed for some weird reason. Ttiotsw 07:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this on wikipedia? - ...because Wikipedia is not censored

I just came across this article and was surprised to find it. This site is not even a real legal organization and the guy, Ali Sina, is not anyone famous. Wikipedia is supposed to educate people about real things, not just little organizations. If faithfreedom were to become a widespread debate in the world, then it would be something important. But honestly, if faithfreedom is on wikipedia, it also legitamizes a lot of websites to be on wikipedia, hurting the quality of this project. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sartaj (talk • contribs) 01:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC).[reply]

This has already been discussed here.--Sefringle 06:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your plea presents a fallacy and proposes self-censorship. Quoting Paine, “Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.”, the core principe of Islam is submission. Submission is the antithesis to reason. Ttiotsw 08:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sartaj, it doesnt matter if Ali Sina exists or not. All you have to do is see whether the article meets the WP:WEB criteria.--Matt57 15:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New Development: Annual Awards

As announced yesterday on the FaithFreedom Forum in the Action section, Ali Sina and the directors of the site are instituting annual awards. Should this development be included in the Wikipedia article? 74.102.58.135 08:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I say lets at least wait until the awards have been announced. Whats needed the most right now is more links for FFI's notablity so no one dares to nominate this article for deletion again. --Matt57 23:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of Ali Sina and FFI

Now that the notability of FFI has been established (I hope more links will be brought in, the more the better), my question is: If FFI is notable, isnt Ali Sina too? If so, more information that existed on page should be brought here as Sefringle tried to do. Also actually under the new title, we can write more. Previously we could only include information on Ali Sina, but now we can also include other information on the website that may not be directly related to Ali Sina. I've also included a logo as you can see. The page looks better now. --Matt57 22:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

matt, why is Ali sina views and debates are being written in FFI page. its not his page its about website so just write about website not about the founder. how can i write about yusuf qaradawi who made the islamonline.net website on the website page, its wrong. just write about FFI on the article what his founder said or thinks does not matter.
    • ffi is notable according to admins but not ali sina, remember his article was deleted because of notability*

Thats why i am removing what ali sina said or thinks. i hope you can understand.Mak82hyd 00:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • point to note and remeber
In this article most if not all citations and references have been given from the same website but not from other neutral websites.
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