Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television

Overhaul

I believe that this WikiProject needs a major overhaul. The page itself hasn't changed much since September 2003. More importantly, there seems to be no standardization among articles about television series. I think that this page should outline a more comprehensive template with an infobox as well as information about linking to subpages, proper styling of episode names, sections that should be included, etc. See User talk:Clueless for a discussion about this.

In any case, I plan to edit this page mercilessly in the future. I'm interested in what others have to say about possible changes as well as whether anyone might be willing to help me make changes to this page and apply them to individual articles.

Acegikmo1 20:48, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

(From User talk:Clueless)

...

I think that we have several things to focus on now. First, we need to better define what sections should be included in an article on a television series. Next, we need to specify how these sections should be ordered. For example, I think that a list of characters should be placed at the end of the article while a list of episodes should have its own page. What do you think?

Of course, a larger problem is establishing some standards for formatting. Episodes, I think, should always be linked if they're mentioned in the body of the article, because this indicates that they're probably significant and it will encourage people to write articles about them.

On episode lists, however, I think that only episodes for which articles have been written should be linked because most of the episodes will never have an article. Moreover, not linking all episodes lets people know when a new article about an episode has been written because the author will link it from the episode list page. I've worked to implement such standardization [1] [2].

Of course, other would argue that "significant" episodes should bnbe linked. I think that, in the few cases where a large number of episode articles have been written, all episodes or a specific group of episodes should be linked. The problem with this is that it could seem non-neutral and that it introduces a double-standard. Again, what do you think?

Of course, I've probably written too much already. Perhaps we should just focus on one thing at a time. I've mentioned above how I think we should proceed. Is there a specific section on Wikipedia:WikiProject Television that you want to tackle first?

Acegikmo1 14:31, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Episodes

Lists

First, the episode lists... yes, I think they should be on separate pages as well. To be clear... I think the character list should contain only the major characters and the rest should be placed on a separate cast & crew page (either internal or external, like to the IMDB). On the other hand, most episode lists would probably be too long to include on the main series page. I think putting it on a separate page would look better, but what do the others say about this issue?

Ok, so episode lists will be a separate page. Most people seem to agree, as about 85% of the shows I've encountered list the episodes on a separate page. The only exceptions are shows that have been cancelled quickly (Wonderfalls) and shows that haven't been on the air for very long (Stargate Atlantis). I think that such shows (say, one season or less broadcast) should have the list on the main page, while all other shows should have it on a different page.

I think that the major characters will be listed on the main page, but a full list of cast and crew should go on a separate page. I'm not sure whether such a full list will be necessary for every television show. It would probably be useful for long-running shows with lots of recurring characters (e.g. ER, The Simpsons), while a show with a handful of recurring characters like Star Trek: Enterprise doesn't really need it (yet?). I don't think it's useful to list every guest star who has appeared (execpt on individual article pages). I've said this on Talk:Stargate Atlantis.

Acegikmo1 01:17, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Names and Links

Next, about whether to make the episode names links... I don't think it's that big of a deal. Wikipedia already provides readers with the ability to distinguish between written articles and empty ones when they're linked to (the current red vs blue link system). Using a plaintext vs hyperlink system would be a redundant method of accomplishing the same thing. However, from a completely personal point of view, I think that the plaintext vs hyperlink system is much easier to comprehend than the red vs blue system. Wikipedia, IMHO, should not have done the red vs blue thing to begin with because after years of web usage, it's easy to automatically assume that off-color links are simply ones that I've already visited. Wikipedia actually uses purple for that purpose, but it's hard to conciously keep that in mind when browsing. So I'd vote for the plaintext system, but I don't think it matters too much one way or the other.

I agree for plain text on the separate episode list page, but I think that if the episode is mentioned in the text, it is probably an important episode in the show's developement and we should link it to encourage people to write about it, as we did on The X-Files. Acegikmo1 01:45, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Significance

I do agree with you that episodes should not be linked to on a "significance" basis. Whether something is "significant" is a purely subjective thing and different viewers will think different things are significant -- for example, one viewer might find all the Mulder and Scully romances in The X-Files to be significant while another fan might find them a total waste of time and would prefer to focus on the Alien Conspiracy episodes instead. Both types of episodes contribute to the series, no doubt, but there is no objective way to measure their importance.

If somebody really believes an episode is significant for one reason or another, well, all they have to do is write an article about it and it'll naturally be linked to. That way, not only do we avoid the previous issue altogether, the writers can also tell readers why the episode should be considered significant.

Agreed. Episodes within an episode list should not be discriminatorily linked. Acegikmo1 01:47, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Marking episodes

If enough episode articles are written, it may then be necessary to provide readers with a way to find episodes of personal interest to them. Perhaps a very simple letter-based marking system next to each episode name, with an accompanying legend on top. Use this fake Star Trek: The Next Generation episode list as an example:

(Legend: Bo=Borg presence, Q=Encounters with the "Q", Ch=Major characters are introduced or taken away, Ho=Holodeck, Kl=Klingon, Ro=Romulan, etc.)

Second Contact (9x10) - Bo Kl

Alternate Realities (9x11) - Ho Ch

Reunion (9x12) (Does not follow any recurring themes so does not have any identifying codes)

Greater Powers (9x13)- Q Kl Bo Ro Ch Ho

However, I suspect that such a system will not be needed for a very long time. As you mentioned, most episodes will probably never be written about. This is just a potential solution to satisfy people who want a way of marking episodes as "significant".

Now this is an interesting proposal. I've noticed that episode lists also vary in how they're formatted. Compare List of Star Trek TNG episodes, List of Earth Final Conflict episodes, List of Star Trek: Enterprise episodes, and List of episodes of The X-Files. Notice the differences in naming, table vs. list format, what information is included, etc.

I very much like the idea of adding a key with codes signify episodes that relate to a specific theme. For The X-Files, I imagine that this could be used to distinguish between "Monster of the Week" episodes and "Mytharc" episodes. The examples you provide above elaborate on this.

One thing that I've considered for a fairly long time is whether it would improve the article to mark episodes that are generally considered very high quality by fans of the series. For example, should we use data from a few offsite surveys [3] [4] to designate episodes that consistently rank in the top ten among surveys of fans of the series. I should note that some episode articles (e.g. "Spock's Brain", "The City on the Edge of Forever") make note of the fact that such episodes are considered very poor or very good by fans. Would extending this information to the list be introducing POV? I'm interested in your view.

Acegikmo1 02:04, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think we should use something similar to the ST: Enterprise's table format. It's the most easily understood and it allows for the greatest flexibility while maintaining the same general style. I suggest something like this:

Season One

#	Title	Original Airdate	Rating¹ (Optional)	Codes (Optional)	Additional Info² (Optional)
1	The Last Chicken	September 14th, 2008	9.55	Ch Bw
2	The Dead	September 21st, 2008	4.55	Ki	Guest starring Thomas McThomas

¹ Can be either from Nielsen, a survey site, or any other quasi-authorative source. If it's not just the writer's personal opinion, but rather the collective thoughts of many fans, it shouldn't be a POV issue. However, I'm not sure if we will be allowed to use any of these sites' scores...?

² There should be space for a few more columns (or one general "Notes" column) at the end of each row. This would allow article writers to add additional info should the need arise while still adhering to the standard template format.

Thoughts?

--05:13, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

I like the table format as well. I also must admit that I find your false episode names rather amusing. In any case, we can specify table format as standard for cases in which the list includes more information that just the episode name, number, and date of broadcast. Otherwise, I think a list would be best. Is this ok with you?

As for using other sites' scores, I'm pretty sure that we can use them. For a work to be copyrighted, it has to include a creative element, and raw data (e.g. the average score a group of fans assign to an episode) has no creative element and is thus not copyrightable (Feist v. Rural). Well, as far as I can tell :-). Acegikmo1 05:35, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks :)

And about the lists vs tables... hmm, I'm not sure. Do you think it is a good idea to use both? It might seem a little inconsistent that way and, besides, the tables can represent everything that lists can (or vice versa, if you prefer lists). Isn't it our goal to make all the pages look as similar as possible? If so, we should probably stick to either lists OR tables... not both.

And about the scores... OK, great. I'm not too familiar with copyright laws myself so I'll take your word for it :)

--Clueless 11:40, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

That makes sense. Tables are easier to add to, so we can make them the standard. Acegikmo1 03:00, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Intro

Okay, now moving on.... the introduction section. I think we should use a layout similar to the Presidents template (see the George W. Bush page), meaning a chart with technical/basic information should appear on the right side, along with a picture. Then, a brief few sentences covering other things can be added to the main body text. I believe this would make quick comparisons between different TV series easier.

As to what actual information should be included, I think the list you made is good.

Thank you. What specifically do you think should be included in the table. I've noticed that sometimes tables tend to be redundant (e.g. with Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums, some of the information in the table is naturally going to be repeated in the body text). So I think we need to be careful that information that should logically be presented in the textual introduction is not repeated in the table. Tables, in my view, should be more for statistics than important quantitative information, but I'm not sure what your view on this is. Acegikmo1 03:13, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Characters

Next... the characters. What do you think about using a table-based format instead of a sentence-based one? Something like:

Character Name (May be a link)	Actor Name (May be a link)	Description
Captain Jean-Luc Picard	Patrick Stewart	One of Starfleet's most trusted captains, he has a keen sense of what to do, and thus has been known to ignore the Prime Directive.

As with the intro, I believe a chart would improve readability.

Plot

This is a section I'm not too sure about. The thing about television series, as opposed to movies, is that they're incredibly long and their plots are constantly evolving and expanding. Even "completed" series, like The X-Files, have huge amounts of information... basically, I believe it'd very difficult (if not impossible) to condense so much information into one single section of an article.

Also, as with the episodes, there's the problem of maintaing a NPOV... who is to say which plot elements are major and which are not?

What I'd like to suggest, instead, is having a very brief synopsis about the series's MAIN theme -- the kind of thing you might find in a TV Guide blurb. For The X-Files, it might be something like "A couple of FBI agents, working in a special unsolved-cases department of the Bureau, investigate paranormal phenomena (however you spell that). Along the way, they begin to unravel a cospiracy involving aliens and the government, yada yada yada."

Star Trek: The Next Generation's might be something like "The series details the travels of the U.S.S. Enterprise and its crew as they live life in the 24th or whatever century, explore new sectors of the galaxy, and encounter alien lifeforms along the way. There is war and peace, love and intrigue, etc."

And then, important plot elements (or "subplots") can be given their own page under the main article (like X-Files/conspiracy or Star-Trek/Borg) and they can be linked to from the main Plot section.

More straightforward series, perhaps things like "Friends" or "Sex and the City" might not need any subplot pages at all. This would probably also apply to nonfiction/documentary-style television series like the stuff on Discovery or TLC, e.g. Trading Spaces or Monster House.

What do you think?

Societal Impact

I think that's a great idea. Would help set Wikipedia further apart from sites like the IMDB.

Critical Reviews

Uh-huh, exactly. Something like the IMDB or Rottentomatoes blurbs should do just fine.

Production Notes

What exactly do you have in mind for this section? Also, sometimes this information might fit better under specific episodes rather than the series as a whole.

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--Clueless 17:16, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)

Making a Rough Draft

Is there any place we can post a rough draft of the template for viewing and collaborative editing? I think working on the actual layout would be simpler than trying to describe it using lengthy paragraphs.

I don't want to mess up any of the existing TV series pages, so perhaps we can make a sub-page from this article or maybe use a part of the Sandbox?

--Clueless 05:13, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

Is there a list of television shows filmed in front of a live studio audience?

I tried locating an article that contains a list of TV shows filmed in front of a live studio audience, but I couldn't find it. I've found several articles, such as the one on I Love Lucy, that mention that the show was filmed in front of a live studio audience, but I can't find any list. CryptoDerk 19:35, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)