Talk:Báb

Questions about the execution

I just read the article and appreciate the education. This is quite new to me so pardon my naive and skeptical questions, but since this needs to be a neutral and balanced encyclopedia entry I hope you will agree such questions have to be asked and answered.

Is the story of the execution considered factual (or at all embellished or mythical)? Are there some neutral POV external links to support it (ie, not originating from Bahá'í Faith sites). I Googled for a while with no luck. It would seem that with 10,000 witnesses (plus the soldiers and officials) that more non-Bahá'í observers would collaborate and report on such an amazing event. Perhaps newspaper reports?

Please don't take this as disrespect for the Bahá'í Faith, but since this is an encyclopedia I'd like to ask if there exists strong evidence and neutral witnesses. Are there alternative explanations for these seemingly impossible facts:

750 trained executioners fire and all miss both Anís and the Báb
the Báb vanishes and is found back in a cell
10,000 witnesses to a seeemingly supernatural event in modern times

I hope you entertain my desire for neutrality and evidence in this article. Thanks! --Ds13 20:55, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The BBC's series on Religion and Ethics [1] has an article on the Báb [2] on the third page [3] it recounts the same story. I'll try to find more non-Bahá'í sources for it; if I recount correctly the accounts you stated above were published in newspapers of the time in the West (I think in London) and there was much interest in the Babis in general among the intellectual classes, but this interest died down significantly in the years after the Báb's martyrdom. -- Fadeaway919 21:17, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

The 1988 Encyclopedia Brittanica also has the same facts. Here is the section from the Encyclopedia "In 1850 he was brought to Tabriz, where he was suspended by ropes against a wall in a public square. A regiment of several hundred soldiers fired a volley. When the smoke cleared, the large crowd that had gathered at the place of execution saw ropes cut by bullets, but the Báb had disappeared. He was found unhurt in an adjacent building, calmly conversing with a disciple. The execution was repeated, this time effectively. There followed large-scale persecutions of the Bábís in which ultimately more than 20,000 people lost their lives." Article Baha'i Faith 1988 Encyclopedia Brittanica. Fadeaway919 22:00, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

One final thing, while I haven't found precise references to the execution by western newspapers, this article gives references to a lot the western accounts of Bábism's early history and it implies that the execution was a topic that stayed in littery circles for a while [4]. -- Fadeaway919 22:20, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

My (earlier) edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica makes no reference at all to this story. I shall check later ones, however I have looked at W.M. Miller's version of events in his book "The Baha'i Faith". It makes no mention of the improbably large 750 man firing squad, but instead gives the folowing account:

The execution was carried out by firing squads of soldiers, who fired three volleys. The first firing party was composed of Christian soldiers, and the second of Muslims.

In the presence of a great crowd Mirza Muhammad Ali was suspended by ropes from the parapet, and his body was riddled by the first volley of bullets. Then a second volley was fired by the same firing squad at the Bab, who was similarly suspended. When the smoke rolled away, "a cry of mingled exultation and terror arose from the spectators – for the Bab had disappeared from sight! It seemed, indeed, that his life had been preserved by a miracle, for, of the storm of bullets which had been aimed at him, not one had touched him; nay, instead of death they had brought him deliverance by cutting the ropes which bound him, so that he fell to the ground unhurt."

Had the Bab been able to maintain his presence of mind and rush out alive and unhurt among the crowd, the spectators would without doubt have hailed his escape from death as a miracle of God, and would have eagerly espoused his cause. No soldier would have dared shoot at him again, and uprisings would have occurred in Tabriz which might have resulted in the overthrow of the Qajar dynasty. However, dazed by the terrible experiences he had passed through, the Bab took refuge in one of the rooms of the barracks. There he was soon found, "was seized, dragged forth, and again suspended; a new firing party was ordered to advance (for the men who had composed the first refused to act again); and before the spectators had recovered from their first astonishment, or the Babis had time to attempt a rescue, the body of the young prophet of Shiraz was riddled with bullets."

This version has the Bab's companion killed outright and the the Bab himself making an unsuccessful escape attempt. If members of the firing squad were either sympathetic to the Bab, or just frightened to kill a reputed holy man, the story seems somewhat less miraculous. It it easy to see how it can have grown in the telling, and the miraculous aspects increased, along with the creation of a fulfilled prediction by the Bab to make the escape attempt seem like a sign of holiness rather than self-preservation. I'm not saying that's what did happen, after all this version seenms to contain mistakes (referring to the Bab's companion by the actual name of the Bab himelf!), but we do need to qualify the presentation of the story. Paul B 10:37, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

A comment and question

1) Why is it written here that the Báb was "traditionally" seen as an independent Manifestation of God (as opposed to what)?

Ida know? Uh, as opposed to an Shi'a "Immam" or a political leader, or a heretical moslem? Probebly needs to go away. -- rboatright

2) The reference of the "Gate" for the Báb, though it may have been interpreted by some early on as having been a reference to the "gates" of the Hidden Imám (the 12th Imám), the Báb in fact refuted the claim to be (just) such a "gate" (see http://bahai-library.org/books/dawnbreakers/chapters/8.html#154 ) but rather claimed to be a full independent Manifestation of God (see http://bahai-library.org/books/dawnbreakers/chapters/18.html#315 ) (while He also still claimed to be a Herald to "Him Whom God would make manifest"). - Brettz9 07:07 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

Nodnod. A decent discussion of this actually occurs in the article on the Bábi Faith where there is a discussion of the terms "gate" and "primal point". Admittedly, some of that content could come over here, but I have not had time to work on these recently. -- Rboatright

okay...i changed it... - Brettz9 15:49 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

Education

I read in a book that Mirza Ali Mohamed was initially a Shi'a from the Shayki branch. This should be mentioned. -- Error

..So, that would require some extensive articles on twelver islam wouldn't it? Or, just add that line if you feel it's needed. howver, yes, your information is correct as far as it goes. Actually, nothing at all is known of the Bab's beliefs BEFORE he met Mullah Hussain Ali that night of May 23, 1844. But the PRESUMPTION is that he had prior knowledge of the Shayki branch of twelver Islam. nodnod --rboatright

I didn't add it because I was unsereof the spelling. Wikipedia didn't recognze the links and I was quoting form non-English text. -- Error

Well, the Báb was reported to have attended at least one lecture of Siyyid Kázim, the prominent Shaykhí scholar, before His Declaration to Mullá Husayn, but this scholar actually alluded to Him as being the Promised One at that time before his students.

So, is Shaykhi a more frequent spelling? -- Error

Yes, at least within the (Bahá'í) literature I have read. "kh" is a distinct sound in Persian and Arabic (like "ch" in the Scottish "loch" or indicated in some transliteration systems by "x") and can indicate a different meaning than /k/. "Kh" (and "sh") would be properly underlined, and the "i" also would have the accent "í", but I think these could generally be intuited more easily.

As far as His schooling, the Báb never really attended any school at all, let alone took religious higher training (including Shaykhi classes in a regular manner). His uncle did bring Him to classes as a Child, but His teacher soon returned Him back to His uncle (His caretaker as His father had passed on), stating that he had nothing to teach Him. The uncle insisted and returned Him to school for a time, but it soon became apparent that this was not to any purpose, as the Child was deemed to have nothing to learn. He also was an orphan and later made a living as a merchant, so He had not received an upper class exposure to scholars in this manner.

Also, even after His Declaration, He continued to follow the Shí'ah rites on His pilgrimge to Mecca and Medina, venerated the Twelve Holy Imáms, and there were connections in His Faith to the Shaykhí tradition (though I am not aware exactly to what extent He endorsed all of the latter's tenets)...Though a materialist will probably insist that He would need to have learned His Knowledge of these traditions through study of some sort, to the Bábís of that time (and Bahá'ís such as myself today), His knowledge was innate and He had His own independent connection to the Source of all knowledge. For this reason, I would suggest altering the statement in the article that He had been "educated" in this tradition, and rather state, if desired, perhaps simply that He had endorsed this tradition. I think this would be more neutral and acceptable to all poitns of view. - Brettz9 05:25 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

Please do not erase links to other groups you may not agree with they are there to preserve the neutral point of view required by Wikipedia, and removal and erasier of links can result in permanently beign banned from wikipedia of the one removing them.