Talk:Iraqi insurgency (2003–2011)

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Class of resistance

i find it incredibly offensive to state that somehow the 'upper classes' and 'educated' are somehow inherently non-violent, while the 'lower classes' and 'uneducated' are somehow inherently pro violent. let me remind you that although gandhi and king were middle class themselves, a large portion of their followers, indeed their foot soldiers in their marches, were 'lower class' and 'uneducated'. let me also remind you that upper class educated people are the ones who started the invasion in iraq. and upper class educated people have presided over some of the most brutal dictatorships of the 20th century, including Mobutu in Zaire, not to mention others. if this is 'neutral point of view' then i am a polkadotted rhinocerous.

Which part of the article are you referring to? I agree with you btw. If anything, the vast majority of violence comes from more or less 'educated' 'upper classes', although typically they manage to convince other people to do it for them. They are the ones who command armies and have their fingers on the nuclear button.The Iraq war is the obvious example for that. - pir 01:07, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hi. I understand your point, but I think your'e taking that part of the article in the wrong way. All I'm saying was that the majority of Sadr's support comes from the poor, which is a fact. Most people living comfortable lives see no pressing need for action; on the other hand, people without jobs, electricity, or water could easily be driven to extreme measures. By the way, personally, I'm hardly for the Bush campaign, but I'm doing my best to keep politics out of here. I'm stating the facts, as my best research has led me to believe. Sometimes the facts don't fit in perfectly with a liberal or a conservative mindset.

Number of coalition casualties

The number of coalition casualties should be corrected not to misrepresent the success of guerilla attacks. Of the 568 American casualties, for example, only 385 are from actual hostilities. See AP article on a summary of the war in Iraq, one year later (search on "casualties of war").

Is there a source for the claim that most of the Islamicist fighters are "free-lance"? It sounds like speculation.

In response to the comment, the assertion that most foreign Islamist fighters are freelance is based on the conclusions of analysts and interviews with the insurgents themselves. I will add that it is not definite that most are not freelance, but that is the general consensus. If you have any other suggestions, feel free to post them. Thankyou

Does anyone notice anything that appears to have been left out or needs to be corrected? It would be a great help if you would share your own knowledge or opinion on the occupation, the Iraqi resistance, guerilla warfare, or any related topics. Thankyou.

Where can I find the actual statistics on the number of guerilla attacks that occured in Iraq in a given month? Preferably a graph starting from May 1, 2003.

The exact number of guerilla attacks per month has been classified by the U.S military. However, we know that there were a total of 3,643 guerilla attacks from the beginning of May to the end of November, 2003, as reported by the Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/11/29/guerrilla_war_in_iraq_spreading/. As of mid-February, a total of over 4,700 guerilla attacks have been logged. Attacks from the end of May to October averaged a dozen a day, following which there was an increase to 18 a day in late October and large spike to as many as 50 a day in early November. Attacks began declining from that high in late November until they reached 15 a day by the beginning of January. The massive U.S counteroffensive known as Operation Iron Hammer, an influx in aid money to placate the population, and finally the capture of Saddam Hussein all served to bring about the decrease. These events caused heavy insurgent losses, both material and psychological, especially for guerilla elements associated with the former regime. In response, the attacks slowed as the guerillas went through a period of reorganization and evaluation of U.S tactics. The attacks rebounded somewhat at the beginning of February, however, to 22 a day.

The use of the term insurgent is somewhat loaded. It implies a degree of legitimacy for the US-led occupation which itself would be viewed by many as an insurgency. I think the term resistance, when used in context, is slightly more objective, and should thus be used here. --prat 00:05, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC)

Thankyou for your input into this article. I appreciate the suggestions you have given me for the article. On the use of the term insurgent, I don't believe that describing the resistance as an insurgency compromises any objectivity. If I called them terrorists, or if on the other hand I called them freedom fighters, that would be very subjective. The resistance, which is in essence a guerilla-style rebellion against U.S-led occupation forces, fits the dictionary definition of an insurgency. I will not go about changing the wording once again, however, and I am satisified with the changes. Thankyou again for your help.

Sorry to labour the point, but the Iraqi resistance doesn't necessarily fit the dictionary definition of an insurgency because an insurgency is "specifically : a condition of revolt against a recognized government that does not reach the proportions of an organized revolutionary government and is not recognized as belligerency" (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition). Think how often "insurgency" is used to describe the activities of the French resistance during WW2, say... They're just called "the resistance". If they were only fighting the local government perhaps "insurgency" would be fair, but for now they are fighting a foreign occupation too.

November 31?

From the article:

Occasions where fighters were concentrated in larger numbers included a battle near the town of Rawa on June 13, 2003 near the Syrian border and a large coordinated ambush of a convoy in the town of Samarra on November 31. Both involved groups of roughly 100 fighters.

It wasn't until I added some links to this article that I noticed the 2nd date was bogus: the month of November only has 30 days. While I assumed this was just a typo & fixed it, it's possible that this bogus date was a flag to show this 2nd attack is a hoax. Could someone far more knowledgeable than me verify that there was such an attack, & if so, what the correct date was? -- llywrch 17:37, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I apologize for the typo error. The battle described did indeed occur in Samarra on November 30, 2003 (see http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/30/sprj.irq.main/index.html for reference).

What is the source for those photos ? Ericd 22:31, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm stating the obvious, but feel free to post any questions you have on the topic of this article here in the discussion section. Any updates and any additional information you might have would be very welcome in the article.

"Private contractors" or Mercenaries?

Is the expression "private contractors working for the alliance forces etc.." more accurate or "mercenaries hired by the anglo/american armies" more accurate?

"Private contractors" sounds like innocent civilians, the Aegis and Blackwater dudes can't be even be held responsible for war-crimes...reportedly they have been committing most of them?

"Alliance forces" sounds like "allied forces" the good-guys of WW2... "Axis" of Evil anyone? And is it really an wide alliance as the name would suggest? There is only nominal participation from countries beside US and UK....

What is POV and what is NPOV? I don't know...

Any opinions on this?

Thankyou for your opinion. I agree with you about the term "alliance." I'm not the one who started using that and I've been removing it from the article. On the issue of the mercenaries/contractors, I think that the term "mercenary" would be too biased in the opposite direction, but you're right, private contractor might not be best either. How about "private security contractor?" Do you think that will be far enough?

I removed the description of the 2003 invasion of Iraq as "illegal"; although that's an arguable case, it's unnessecary to state that here and clearly indicates a bias.

I'm going to condense the article slightly, while leaving all the same information in. There is some redudancy. I did this before, but someone restored what I removed for some reason.

Why not call them mercenaries if that's what they are? "Private security contractors" sounds like weasel words to me. While the war and foreign occupation continues surely it's only fair to call these people "mercenaries" even if they argue that they're just doing "security support".

History section

I mv'ed the history section to it's own article. This was done to lighten the bulk of that section ... the bytes should be a lil less now for the article. Anything past the transfer should go here and mabey added to the main article after some time [mabey? mabey not] ... JDR

"Reconstruction"

I'm very unhappy with the term "reconstruction" to denote the period after the Allawi takeover, because it is highly POV. Check e.g. [1] for what "reconstruction" is going on according to a Reuters photographer who was there. We need to agree on a different word for this period. I propose something like "interim government" period if that's fine with other people. It is also POV to suggest that the occupation has ended when up to 200'000 foreign troops are still in Iraq, carrying out military action. - pir 10:14, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Reconstruction is a good term. The people of Iraq, striving to reclaim their freedom, which was usurped by the previous tyrannical regime, rejecting violence and coercion in all their forms, and particularly when used as instruments of governance, have determined that they shall hereafter remain a free people governed under the rule of law. It is a period for Iraq as the occupying powers by the the United States-led multinational force in Iraq forms the new Iraq interim government and prepares for the country's elections. It is not POV to suggest that the occupation has ended ... Iraq is sovereign. The 200'000 foreign troops are still in Iraq, carrying out military action at the behest of the Iraqi government. JDR

Talk pages are not there to discuss politics but to discuss writing the article. "Reconstruction" is not a NPOV term and I'd like us to agree on a different one to avoid an edit war. As for "occupation", the legitimacy of the interim government is disputed and regarded as a puppet by many, and this POV must not be excluded from the accepted terminology for the article to be NPOV. I'm not being unreasonable here. pir 12:19, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm not discussing politics ... I'm discussing the facts.

"Reconstruction" is a NPOV term. What different term is there? Reconstruction will include your "interim government period" as well as any other events ("failures" and "successes") that will occur till the elections next year. The legitimacy of the interim government is disputed (note that fact) ... but the country is still undergoing a reconstruction. As to the interm gov being regarded as a puppet by many? Yes ... as many thought that the "Reconstructed South" after the US Civil War was a puppet. JDR

" The Reuters reporter I spoke to had been to several KBR-built permanent American military bases in his six month tour of Iraq. "That's where the oil industry money is going," he told me. "Billions of dollars. Not to infrastructure, not to rebuilding the country, and not to helping the Iraqi people. It's going to KBR, to build those bases for the military." According to the Center for Public Integrity, Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root has made $11,475,541,371 in Iraq as of July 1. ... As for the corporate takeover of the Iraqi oil industry, that has become the prime mission of the American soldiers engaged there. Kellogg Brown & Root also does a tidy business in the oil-infrastructure repair market. "The troops aren't hunting terrorists or building a country," said the Reuters photographer. "All they do is guard the convoys running north and south. The convoys north are carrying supplies and empty tankers for the oil fields around Mosul and Tikrit. The convoys south bring back what they pull out of the ground up there. That's where all these kids are getting killed. They get hit with IEDs while guarding these convoys, and all hell breaks loose." " [2]

So building military bases is "reconstruction"? What the Bush men mean by "reconstruction" is most of all a giant subvention for Halliburton et al. Much of the money is not for reconstruction of infrastructure. The money spent does not help to reconstruct the Iraqi economy because it all goes to Western companies. The term "reconstruction" is about as NPOV as "corporate takeover of Iraq" - I guess you'll obejct to me using that word. What's wrong with "interim government period"? - pir 12:59, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

1st ... i just did a search in this article. The word "reconstruction" only occurs 4 times.

2nd ... For info on the reconstruction of Iraq, see that article.

3rd ... The "interim government period" is a subset of "Reconstruction".

4th ... Your POV is very appearant, JIMO.

Sincerely, JDR

Of course I have a point of view, did I claim to be so stupid as not to have an opinion of my own? Did I hide my opinions? You have an obvious POV too, and there's nothing wrong with that. Your and my opinions are completely irrelevant in this however, because the only thing which matters is whether the article is NPOV. I do my best to make my edits NPOV and I think I achieve that most of the time. The article as it stands is not NPOV, and I don;t see you making an effort to adress the issue. You have not responded to any of them. What's wrong with "interim government period"? - pir 13:17, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

: Did you try hide your opinion in the edits? yes ... as a commentary ...

: The article was pretty NPOV before. The article as it stands is not NPOV.

: What's wrong with "interim government period"? It's a subset of the reconstruction [did u miss that?] JDR

That is not an argument against using the "interim government period". "Interim government period" is a very useful designation, because (1) it is NPOV ; (2) the situation in Iraq now is well characterised by interim government rule, and it will change again when (or maybe I should say if) there are elections and an elected government takes over. If you don't like it please come up with a useful alternative. - pir 15:36, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Specificall, please state HOW is it NPOV?

The phrase "interim government period" is a designation of one part of the total reconstruction.

There was a reconstruction of Germany ... there was a reconstruction of Japan ... there is now a reconstruction of Iraq. Each had a interim government rule that changed.

The current interim government rule may change (especially when the elections are held) ... but reconstruction will go on. I do not know of a useful alternative, do u have any?

JDR (PS., this is senseless, reconstruction is a NPOV term. I removed the tag. If you want to rephrase the sentences ... please do. BUT the article is pretty much NPOV. JDR 15:59, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Explain one thing to me: why would the Iraqi resistance fight the "reconstruction"? They want the foreign troops and their collaborators out, just like any other resistance movement. What kind of strategy do they follow by targetting the "reconstruction"? - pir 19:00, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sabotage and other violent actions are intended to set back reconstruction efforts and to push back progress in Iraqi society towards democracy. The authority is developing democracy is the so-called "collaborators". The violent resistance obeys no authority. Targetting "reconstruction" is key for them and the development of an open democarcy is not what they want. The non-violent group are not targetting the "reconstruction". JDR

"The authority" has as it's new head an ex-Baathist turned CIA collaborator(who worked for Saddam's feared secret service and later committed terrorist acts in Iraq, i.e. bombs targeting civilians) who at once clamped down on the freedom fo the press (banning al-Jazeera for example, re-installing on of Saddam's men to oversee the Iraqi media), it's in the process of restoring Saddam's secret service (renamed from Mukhabarat to General Security Directorate), they introduced a law for declaring martial law, Allawi is reported by a respected Australian newspaper to have killed six jailed suspects all by himself in June, they picked a fight with al-Sadr... - how exactly is that "developing democracy"?? And how exactly is blowing up oil installations pushing back democracy? Democracy isn't based on oil installations, it's based on people having control in a meaningful way over how their country is run.

Some people in the armed Iraqi resistance have an interest in joining the political process, like al-Sadr who can militarily be easily defeated, but who has a lot of political power. In a survey in May he was found to be the third most popular Iraqi political figure, far ahead of Allawi. Sadr clearly has political ambitions and he has made moves to join the political process, and this is also the reason why he has been targeted by "the authority". So I'm afraid, what you say makes no sense to me.

They are not targetting "reconstruction" because they don't like "reconstuction", they are targetting oil installations because they think their oil belongs to them and they don't think "The authority" has a right to use it. What the Iraqi resistance want is kicking out the foreign troops and their collaborators, who are their real target, and it's got nothing to do with reconstrucion. - pir 00:27, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Juan Cole - this article needs some analysis

First of all, there is nothing wrong with articles expressing POVs, as long as they are attributed rather than protrayed as "the truth", and as long as other significant POVs are not silenced. (I really don't think that Juan Cole can be accused of being particularly POV, he's an academic and knows much about the conflict.) So if there's other analysis of the outcome of the Najaf standoff that contradict Cole, please add them - I'd find that very interesting and support it 100%. But please don't keep removing it, as this article really needs some analysis. All the descriptive stuff is very important, but it is not sufficient to give readers a good understanding of what is happening in Iraq. - pir 13:10, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

For more opinions on the Najaf outcome check this page. Note also non-Western opnions. A NPOV article needs to include at least the main of these opinions. [3] - pir 13:34, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with articles expressing POVs? YMMV on that ... but not in a history section. BTW, Juan Cole can be accused of being particularly POV, academics can be. Move the analysis of the outcome of the Najaf standoff (pro and con) to a more appropriate space. I'll remove POV disguised commentary in the history section. JDR 14:09, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Have you evr read the NPOV policy? Under the heading "the basic ceoncept of neutrality", it says:

Perhaps the easiest way to make your writing more encyclopedic, is to write about what people believe, rather than what is so. If this strikes you as somehow subjectivist or collectivist or imperialist, then ask me about it, because I think that you are just mistaken. What people believe is a matter of objective fact, and we can present that quite easily from the neutral point of view. -- Jimbo Wales, Wikipedia founder

The paragraph I added does just that: it describes what a well-informed and respected academic thinks of the situation. It might not even be my own POV, as I haven't made up my mind of the outcome of Najaf. You have no grounds to delete it. - pir 15:27, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also: what is history but a collection of the views of historians???? - pir 15:28, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

History is what occurred ... you speak of interpretations of history. JDR

Are you serious? Do you believe that history is nothing but the sum of all events that occurred in the past, without any interpretation? Do you mean that the fact that John Doe got up at 7.08 on September 1 1923 and drank a half a pint of milk before going to work, is history with the same meaning as Hitler starting WW2 exactly 16 years later? How do we know Hitler started WW2? It's because historians have looked at documents from the time, evaluated the credibility of the sources and the importance of the data, analysed the data in their historical context, discarding irrelevant data (such as those about what millions of other John Does did at that time), etc. until they came to the opinion that this is what happened. That's what history is - the interpretation of data. - pir 18:40, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The timeline of events is what is important. That is history (both of your example would include this). Meaning, historical context, and opinion are a subjective interpertation of those events (or, of history) [such as importance; the "Doe example" is semmingly unimportant; the "Hitler example" is rather alot more important]. JDR

So you are saying that history is nothing but the meaningless collection of all facts that lie in the past. Weird. Never heard that definition of history before. - pir

As an aside, please note that the BBC's Middle East analyst essentially agrees with Juan Cole [4]. - pir 21:08, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Reversion of changes by 164.58.80.66

I've just reverted an edit by User:164.58.80.66. His changes were IMO an NPOV violation; they had the article start with "The Iraqi insurgents (sometimes reffered as resistance by people with anti-US tone)". There may be NPOV problems with the article, 164.58.80.66, but putting a massive NPOV violation in the *first sentence* isn't the way to fix them. -- Cabalamat 18:32, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sourcing

I've temporarily removed the following, which really need to be sourced to be of any use:

Sheik Hareth al Dhari has been described as the Mullah Omar of Iraq

Some believe that the major division in Iraq is not between religious/ethnic groups nor between the general population and violent groups, but between those who collaborate with the foreign occupation and those who resist it

It's in the article linked to in the immediately preceding paragraph [5], paraphrasing the opinion of Wamidh Nadhmi, political scientist at Baghdad university and spokesman of the National Foundation Congress. Why weren't you consistent and removed the following sentence ("Though the divisions in Iraq between religious and ethnic groups (and, inparticular, between the general population and various violent groups) have became more appearant.) ? It's an unattributed, unsourced POV statement for which there is little evidence but quite a lot of evidence to the contrary. - pir 10:05, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I put one sentence back and (temporarily) removed the other. If there's a source or at least an attriution, please put it back if you like. - pir 19:46, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for both of those- I agree. Markalexander100 00:39, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Markalexander100 09:14, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also the following:

Some of the groups that have claimed responsibility for attacks on the coalition occupying forces and sabotage include the "Iraqi National Front of Fedayeen", "The Snake Party", and "The Return"

This was in the sabotage section, but it's expressed as covering any kind of attack, in which case it should be in the composition section. Markalexander100 09:20, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also:

Suicide bombers are used in larger attacks to gain maximum media attention.

Is this really meant to mean that the bombers deliberately kill themselves in order to get attention, rather than because this is an effective way to kill more of their enemies? If so, it needs sourcing. If not, it needs rewording. Markalexander100 09:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The reality is that this is primarily a psychological war. The way the war is perceived is actually much more important than the military situation. Since suicide bombing is such a shocking form of attack, and often can be more effective at grinding away at the will of the U.S and intimidating Iraqi police and other forces than just firing an RPG, it has become a favored insurgent tactic. That it is a more effective way for the insurgents to kill their enemies was mentioned elsewhere in the article. [Anon]

I don't believe a word of it. If we're going to include it, we need a source, and not to report is as indisputably true. Markalexander100 00:33, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Markalexander100. The only studies I've seen of the psychology of suicide bombers suggest that they are people who have been severely traumatised by conflict, like being tortured or the loss of a close relative  ; 2/3 of female suicide bombers are said to have lost ther husband or to have been raped. - pir 08:58, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also:

In Kufa, The identity of the attackers was unknown, reportedly though a source of gunfire was near an Iraqi National Guard base (20 killed; 70 wounded). _{[6] [7] [8] [9]}.

This is gibberish. Markalexander100 09:37, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it's a silly beating-about-the-bush version to avoid saying the obvious (that the Allawi government shoots at peaceful marches) and not contradict the Western media orthodoxy (that Allawi is a good guy in a difficult situation). It needs rewording. - pir 10:05, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

POV phrases

Nationalists - Why are the fighters called Nationalists and not Patriots? Americans are never described as nationalistic. Americans are "patriotic,". The non-western world is never called patriotic, they're nationalistic; and those among them who fought for sovereignty and power are never patriots, but at best nationalists. Nationalism has a pejorative quality.

Foreign fighters - This is used in the article to refer to people who often have ethnic and religious ties with Iraq. Why are Americans in Iraq not called "foreign fighters."?

This is due to systemic bias (and, not inconsequently, undemocratic media ownership and the subsequent framing of public discourse). Wikipedia is a very anarchic example of history writing, but it's far from perfect. And there's not an awful lot Wikipedia or MediaWiki can do to counter it, because the problem is mostly one of demographics, economics and politics. i.e. things will get framed in a certain way because the people writing them are disproportionately white and male, disproportionately American, and disproportionately written by people from white collar backgrounds -- and these people hold a world-view different to other demographics. So, from my point of view, one of the best ways to counter such systemic bias on Wikipedia is to systematically get people involved in who are not white, male, American, or from a white collar background. Another would be to replace capitalism with democratic economics -- Christiaan 16:51, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. My questions were mainly rhetorical. I have an interest in systemic bias issues. - XED.talk 16:39, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Unintegrated addition

On 16:44, 24 Sep 2004, Jkh.gr added this large chunk to the foot of the page. It all seems good stuff, and it has been wikified a little since, but it seems to me that this ought to be either integrated further up the page (where some of the groups are already mentioned) or in a separate article of its own, say Iraqi resistance organizations? I could be bold, but I've not edited here before and I don't know the issues very well - do other contributors have a view? -- ALoan (Talk) 18:29, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ahmm... It's actually a copy-paste from an article posted to Indymedia. The original is from a newspaper in Baghdad, and was translated into English by FBIS. It's actually linked to in the external links ([10]). It's better to remove the text, it's probably a copyvio. - pir 20:00, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Conflict in Iraq" != "Iraqi Resistance"

There seems to be some people who insist that any mention of a "Conflict in Iraq" should be linked to this article, & not to the more comprehensive Occupation of Iraq, 2003-2004. I fail to understand the logic in this linking. This article, based on its subject line, is only about one party in this conflict: the individuals & groups opposed to the US forces & their allies. The article I've made an effort to redirect the phrase "Conflict in Iraq" to, "Occupation of Iraq, 2003-2004", not only covers both sides but also the larger history of the event. To use an anlogy, using this article to stand for the entire conflict would be exactly like using an article on the Soviet army or the German army alone for World War II, instead of that comprehensive article. Wouldn't you find it confusing & frustrating to follow a link from an article on, say, an Italian Blackshirt regiment or a Japanese warship to find it led to a discussion of the Soviet Army 1939-1945?

Frankly, I find it wrong to include events (for example) as the refusal of 19 Army Reservists stationed in Iraq to take part in a fuel delivery convoy mission under a header that is concerned only with the opposing side. The Iraqi Resistance did not have any direct effect on this refusal; this refusal is best included as a matter related to the more comprehensive article. Let's try to preserve the proper relationship between the articles, so that students consulting Wikipedia are helped, not confused. -- llywrch 18:33, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I apologize. I have been guilty of this for the past few weeks. I saw someone previously link to Iraqi resistance so I simply kept with precedent without realizing there even was a better article to link to. I don't know why it didn't occur to me but now that it has been pointed out I will link future Current events dealing with occupation of Iraq to the obviously better article Occupation of Iraq, 2003-2004. Thanks to llywrch for the heads up message sent via my user talk. -- Dejitarob 00:52, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title

haven't read all the discussion points yet, so I apologize if this point has already been raised, but it's not really an Iraqi resistance. The article should be titled something else (I don't propose any specific title, but if you demand suggestions, Iraqi insurgency, Terrorism in Iraq, etc.

Ahmed

Sorry, I don't understand. Why do you think it's not an Iraqi resistance? – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 14:41, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Neutrality dispute?

Is the Neutrality Dispute notice still needed? If so, what statement are alleged to be POV, and how can we fix them? – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 14:45, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

YEH!!! A notice of Bias is needed for this article

It only gives a description of resistance groups it never says why these were formed

I read an Article on French Resistance during the Second World War

This article outlined the causes of the resistance in very clear terms - We cannot discuss resistance without knowing how it was caused

Maybe these points should be considerd

The Iraq war was illegal in international law and it it is seen as such globally (Unless you happen to be an American or an Englishman)

Kofi Anan UN SEc General has also said this war was illegal Iraq did not support any terrorist activity that caused a danger to the USA Iraq had no weapons of Mass destruction The USA has dropped more bombs on Iraq than WW II Tourture has taken place in US controlled prisons 100,000 Iraqi men Women and Children Have died (BBC & Independent estimates Nov 6 - 2004)

The people resist against an illegal occupation just as the French did

The page on Iraqi resistance in this regard has a bais and does not tell the full story - If thousands of tons of bombs had been dropped on the USA - Americans would have formed into groups and resisted - Just as the USA attacked Al Quieda in Afganistan when their twin buildings were bombed with the loss of 3000 lives (BIG STORY)- Would you write about Al Quieda without mentioning the Twin Towers or the Warship Cole

Well 100,000 other human beings are a Big Story too and not to mention this in this article as the root cause of the people of Iraq to resist is a shame - if there is talk on Iraqi resistance than the USA must be mentioned and their crimes (yes crimes as the war was illegal & geneva coventions in prisons are not followed by US forces)in Iraq which cause the resistance

Lalit Shastri India

I'm sorry to say this, but the "causes of resistance" section simply demonstrates too much bias to be included here. I understand your point of view, and I personally share much of it, but it simply is not the type of material that should be put in what is meant to be an objective encyclopedia article. Information on the causes may be more scarce than would be perfect, but some information is included, if you care to look. That will have to be removed. This article really seems to be deteriorating.

Lalit, I understand that you think information is missing. But if the information present is not disputed, then it's best to discuss adding material here, as we're doing, instead of putting the "disputed" notice up. I'd like to suggest that the notice be removed, since the material in the article is good, and that we discuss separately whether adding new material would make it better.

Now as to that new material: the only good way to assess the motives of the Iraqi resistance is to read their statements on the matter. I don't know what the various resistance groups have to say about this, but that would be a good thing to add. As to the war's illegality, I seriously doubt that affects the resistance. If the U.N. would have sanctioned the war, would your average Iraqi fighter have cared much? I don't think so. It seems to me that he would simply see the U.S. as an occupier to be expelled, an infidel to be punished, and Kofi Annan's statements on the matter probably don't mean a thing to him. But the article should show whatever causes can be factually shown, by statement from resistors and the like. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 03:08, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

If the UN had sanctioned the war, a wider multinational force would have participated and the number of atrocities largely caused by the US force's lack of cultural understanding (attacking wedding parties for example) would have been avoided. - VikOlliver

"cause" of invasion

First of all, an invasion is not a natural disaster, like a flood. A flood is caused by rain or other physical phenomena. An invasion is planned and decided on by people, deliberately. So it makes no sense to speak of the "cause" of the invasion. Nothing "caused" it. The American government decided to invade Iraq. (And so did the UK).

Secondly, The invasion was based on a declaration by the president of the USA, subsequently found to be false, that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. This is misleading, because it leaves out the other main reasons for the invasion: that Saddam was a threat to regional stablity, that he was an evil dictator who used chemical weapons to massacre a hundred thousand Kurdish Iraqis, and that he refused to comply with US Security Council demands. Bill Samman says that the Bush Administration decided to focus on the possession of WMD issue. But this was not the only reason, nor was it ever AFAIK presented as being sufficient in itself.

Bush used tanks and planes to kill 100,000 Iraqis (source: The Lancet). Why makes him any better than Saddam? --Cynical 21:55, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's foreign propaganda (and a Democratic Party campaign position) that alleged possession of WMD was THE reason for the invasion. Wikipedia should not endorse this propaganda or this campaign position. --user:Ed Poor (deep or sour) 13:49, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

So Wikipedia should reflect US Republican propaganda only? - Xed 23:09, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, actually it should not reflect the views of the US Republican Party at all. Rather, it should report the most relevant views and attribute these views to their advocates. Wikipedia should not adopt any one POV on a controversial matter. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 20:07, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

What does foreign propaganda mean? People who aren't Iraqi? Some people seem to think the only relevant views worth reporting are US ones. Preferably of the party in power. It's the kind of head-in-the-sand position held by people who believe "all terrorists are Islamic". These people are better off sticking to drawing with crayons - Xed 20:20, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I meant "foreign to the US", because I was talking about the idea that "alleged possession of WMD was THE reason for the invasion" (i.e., the US-led invasion of Iraq). I'd like to see not only the two main US views, Republican and Democratic, but also any relevant non-US views. (I guess I should have said "non-US" instead of foreign, but I thought everyone reading this talk page already knew I was American. Hmm, maybe I should mention that at user:Ed Poor. --user:Ed Poor (talk) 20:30, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

I find it disturbing how people here are incapable of seperating themselves from their political ideologies when making contributions to these articles. I removed the extremely biased "Causes of Resistance" section; however, we should never say in the article that the positions taken in that section were "propaganda," as the person above did. We should put our energies to writing a better article (it has really fallen into dissaray, if you care to compare the way it looks now to the way it looked when it was nominated as a good article) rather than constantly scouting for "bias" and replacing the perceived bias with even stronger bias of our own.

Silverback is claiming that the UN authorized the US invasion/occupation

Any Evidence? --Alberuni 06:02, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The support for my statement is documented on the Occupation of Iraq page in the "United Nations Resolutions" section. My statement, as opposed to your characterization of it, does not go beyond this documentation.--Silverback 07:13, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Tweaks

Super nice article, really enjoyed it. I fixed a few typos and tweaked the grammar here & there... invite any/everyone to check my work and make sure I didn't disrupt the overall flow somewhere, or introduce any errors myself.

jkl_sem 05:27, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I believe that it is incumbent upon us all, even if we are striving for impartiality and neutrallity to emphaisise form the start that the US led invasion and occoupation of Iraq was illegal according to Kofi Annan. UN Resolution 1441 had did not authorise violence. Furhter this attack on Iraq violated article 51 of the UN Charter and also violated the Nurember Princpiles and the Hague & Geneva Conventions.

Earlier resolutions authorized violence. The no fly zone was authorized and that was already an act of war, the first gulf war ended in only a truce. But as far as this article goes, it is all moot. The UN has recognized the current Iraqi government and the election process, the occupation is over, the majority Shiites will soon win the election. Any continuing resistance is anti-democratic and has not signed on to democractic principles within any timeframe.--Silverback 13:43, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The occupation remains [11]. No amount of mincing words will negate this fact. Christiaan 14:20, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Look at the date on your article, perhaps you should say "The occupation used to remain". Hopefully, the international coalition can avoid any reversion to the traditional Iraqi methods and the peaceful methods of democracy and respect for minority and individual rights will prevail.--Silverback 08:34, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The occupation remains. It matters not what the date of the article is, it is still pertanent. To argue that there is no occupation of Iraq is to be in a deep state of denial. Hopefully the Iraqi resistance, like many guerilla fighters before them, will oust the imperial invaders and stop this unilaterist US regime, that has been taken over by extremists, from taking the world to oblivion. Christiaan 9:45, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I sorry I am a bit bewildered. I understand that the point of view that interventions are always doomed to failure even if well intentioned. I also understand the point of view that violence always makes a situation worse. I also am deeply cynical about how Bush and Blair claim to be fighting for freedom in Iraq and are whittling it away at home. But you are saying that you hope the resistance will win. You like me are livving in Britain. Just imagine that both you and me are Irakis, livving in Baghdad, activists in, say, a tiny Iraki Ecological Party. Lets imagine that this is a year on and that Baghdad is about to fall to the resistance. I can tell you I'd be shitting myself. Would you really be saying then that “hopefully” the resistance will win? Dejvid 00:36, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Let me get this right: some white man's got his limp Depleted Uranium laden dick stuck in your desert, he's killed 100 000 of you invading your country, and half a million beforehand through brutal economic sanctions, he's still hanging around killing and torturing your neighbours [12] while he gets his economic interests in order and you're worried about a few of your brothers who want to kick the fucker out for being bad mannered? Yeah right, be bewildered Dejvid, that's what you're meant to be. I am shitting myself. I'm shitting myself that the U.S. might win; I'm shitting myself about the reassertion of imperial power and the derailing of international law. We know where this has lead the world before. I have no illusions that there will be free elections in Iraq today and nor would I if I was in a "tiny Iraqi Ecological Party". I stand by those in armed struggle against imperial tyranny; they're not threatening to take over the world. Christiaan 01:14, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hey you are stuck in group think and misattributing responsibility. Saddam could easily be considered responsible both for the death of the 100,000 innocent conscripts in Kuwait and for the continuing sanctions and the diversion of oil for food weath to weapons and palaces. In any case, all W has done is eliminate this monster at the cost of a few thousands of lives, and the continuing violence and lives lost are the responsibility of the insurgents. Why think in racist terms? Any who would rather be oppressed by one of their own kind than liberated by another is a racist and irrational. Perhaps it is a sad statement, but other than the obvious discontinuity on prescription and recreational drugs, the US is one of the most free and least corrupt nations on earth. --Silverback 05:22, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

>>I stand by those in armed struggle against imperial tyranny; they're not threatening to take over the world. >>

It is solely your support for the armed struggle I'm focussing on. I am can fully understand why someone in Falujah who has lost a brother might be angry enough to turn to armed resistance. American bombing after the "cesation of hostilities" was not merely wrong but stupid. Bremmer's delaying of elections and economic shock therapy was almost as if calculated to create support for the resistance. I am not the least bewildered that people who have no experiance of democratic society turn to the resistance. That doesn't change that the victory for the resistance will IMO be the end of any hope of a better life for all but those included in the new nomenklatura.

You hav givven me a better idea tho, of why you support the resistance. Thanks for that. You believ that the resistance does not aim to dominate the world but (by implication) that the US does. This seems to me to be a mirror image of the US in Afganistan. The strategy being - back the fundamentalists because that is the best way to beat Soviet imperialism (then) and US imperialism (now). I admit that I am not as hostile to you towards the US but even if you are right that is no reason to be blind to the kind of folk the resistance are. What you are saying is that the Iraqi people should be sacrificed to save the rest of the world. That is a POV that I disagree with but its a valid one but don't go on from that to be blind to what the resistance are all about. Or are the reports of voters of being attacked by suicide bombers today just BBC propaganda? Dejvid 14:35, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I propose removing the mysterious euphemism "traditional methods"

have the insurgents proposed any specific methods? Are all the methods peaceful? if not which ones are and aren't? Left unspecified, traditional could mean anything from conversion by the sword and ethnic cleansing of kurds and the wetland shiites to tribal chieftans.--Silverback 08:53, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Factual inaccuracies

"Transfer of sovereignty. As 2004 progressed, the guerrillas seemed to move to more advanced military tactics and demonstrated much more assertive organization. On June 28, 2004, the occupation was formally ended by the Coalition, which transferred power to a new Iraqi government led by Prime Minister Iyad Allawi. With the situation in the south seemingly settled, many hoped that the transfer of sovereignty would help take the steam out of the ongoing Sunni insurgency. Although many Iraqis were optimistic about the government, militants saw it as little more than an American puppet and continued the fight unabated. On July 18, Iraqi militants offered a $285,000 reward for Allawi's assassination."

This is in dire need of revision: The occupation is not over; it continues. Secondly, the "new Iraqi government" was appointed by the American one, and is not independent. I have read that Allawi is a former Ba'athist who worked later for the CIA and MI6, but will check this. I would also like to see sources on the last two sentences; I have read that most Iraqis are suspicious of the Allawi regime. --Trebor

Agreed, the occupation is not over. Why don't you have a go editing the article. --Christiaan 02:48, 16 Jan 2005

OK, I just deleted that part. That OK, everyone? --Trebor

General problems and rewrite 'Foreign Fighters'

Second sentence: "The insurgent groups see themselves as repelling foreign occupiers so that the people of Iraq can settle their own affairs." This is a generalization and not true. Al-Zarqawi has no interest in the 'people of Iraq' settling 'their own affairs', he is there to attempt to establish a Sunni caliphate (this in a predominantly Shi'a country). This is obviously against the wishes of the Iraqi people and he has no compunction in blowing them up to achieve his ends.

Why does the sentence fragment "While roughly analogous to the way the French viewed Nazi collaborators during and after World War II," exist? 'French', 'Nazi' and 'World War II' can be exchanged for thousands of different things. Why can the sentence not just read "Elements of the resistance have shown no regard for innocent civilian bystanders (collateral damage)." Is there something particular about the French and Nazi case? Doesn't it carry connotations of associating the multinational forces with Nazism, given that numerous examples could have been used?

Where did Bush claim that the transition to Iraqi rule would be marked by falling human and economic costs? If I remember correctly, he characterized it as simply one step on a long and hard road. No quote is provided to support what was in fact just a trope used by his opponents; he cannot be found anywhere to have claimed that things would get better after the handover.

The 'Foreign Fighters' section is all wrong and based on a misreading of the international Islamist movement. It also contains factual inaccuracies. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is generally regarded to be the head of the most organized and well-financed (because through al-Qaeda) section of the resistance, who the authors of this article have chosen to place under the 'Foreign Fighter' section, in contrast to the 'Sunni Islamist' section. This dichotomy is somewhat false. Wahabis in Iraq are not fighting for the Iraqi national cause, and they are not there because they are defending the "Arab" or "Islamic" nation.

The article states that "Some elements of the Western media have painted these fighters as anti-democratic Wahabi fundamentalists who see Iraq as the new "field of jihad" in the battle against U.S. forces." Why 'some elements of the Western media'? This is exactly what they are doing, and it is exactly what the international Islamist movement has done since the 1980s. This is well known and documented on this very site. Also, "suspected "al-Qaeda" operative Abu Musab al-Zarqawi" should be changed to take into account the strong personal ties between Zarqawi and OBL that date back years and the oath of loyalty Zarqawi took to OBL. (Source: [13])

The activities of Wahabis in Iraq mirror their activities all over the world, in places such as the Caucasus, Kosovo, Bosnia and Algeria. The war Wahabis are fighting against Shi'a in Iraq shows they have no regard whatsoever for the Iraqi national movement, and cannot legitimately be seen as a part of it. It is similarly a misreading to suggest they are there to protect some unified Arabic or Islamic nation (as if pan-Arabism were really a dominant Middle Eastern ideology), as the section of Islam they represent is totally non-traditional (it is, however, traditionalistic) and does not represent the views of the majority of the world's Muslims (most of whom aren't Arabic), nor of the Iraqi people.

Just some things to think about. I will gladly work on correcting what I see as errors myself if approval is forthcoming. This article could be a lot more accurate and a lot more neutral.

--Noung 00:13, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)