Wikipedia talk:WikiProject User warnings

IMPORTANT: Signatures

A quick look through Wikipedia:WikiProject user warnings/Overview made me discover we're not including auto-inserting signatures into the warnings. Since they are mostly made as <div>s or wikitables, a signature dangling below it won't look good. So, maybe we should embed them inside the table/div? Миша13 10:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

mmmmm, bugga just done a few tests and see what you mean. I, and others (see archives), don't like the idea of auto including signatures in templates, as that would change how things are done with other templates possibly. Is there anyother way we can do this then, wikitables?, same as below I only created the template just to get things started, any ideas? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

divs and wikitables are practically the same thing. And they're generally a good idea, since unwrapped warnings with images tend to stack ugly on the talk pages. But in case we use divs, we must also embed signatures inside, because there's no other way (except parameters, which is basically same thing) - a sig appended after a table won't magically "hop" into the box. Миша13 20:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Having signatures embedded, and I suppose the whole div/table thing, makes the warnings very brittle. There should be a way to add more text, at least an extra parameter. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 01:00Z

---

OK, we need to think carefully about this, I'm willing to wait until we have all the templates for review before we take a decision on this one. I understand the problem but the main reason I took on the work here was to see harmony amongst all templates. For continuing my plans of world domination, after this project I'm most probably going to start looking at all other templates, i.e welcome messages, edit summary, etc and whatever we put into place here I feel should be extended to all templates.

So anyone else working here, roll up roll up, all ideas accepted. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 11:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Symbols

I think all level 2 should have the "!" in the triangle symbol and all level 3 to have the stop hand symbol. Someone just scrolling through a talk page will be alerted to the warning if they see a symbol like that. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 16:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Levels 0 & 1 are mild notices/reminders, but levels 2 & 3 usually mention the possibility of a block, which is where things get dead serious. Миша13 16:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

0 & 1 are information notice that assume good faith or doesn't assume anything about the editors actions hence only the information symbol. level 2 is where we start saying watch it, we have our eye on you hence and then level three is OK you've been warned now you have no other chances and taken this way seem logical to me. My only point for Teck is, you say scrolling through a talk page, for the offending editor with this system he should have had one if not two warnings/messages prior to getting the red image so it shouldn't come out of the blue or as a surprise. Misza, please I implore you change the images on the jokes templates ;) Anyway these are only suggestions I have been here doing this for a couple of months now so I may have become entrenched in my ideas, so if I seem hestiant let me know and the same for any new ideas, and thanks for your participation. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

It is exactly the "good faith" reason for which I left the original smiley idea on 0 & 1 level joke templates. They're supposed to be used in cases when the editor giving the warning also thinks that the edit was funny, but would like to point out it may not be appropriate. :) For the sake of standarisation, however, I concur that 2 & 3 should have the triangle and hand images as TeckWiz suggested. Миша13 20:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Incase anyone didn't see them this is where we looked at the images. I don't want to re-initiate the whole discussion at this late stage, but am sure we can quickly look at any other ideas, if they're mentioned quickly. Otherwise we'll always be stuck in the same place, as new editors come onboard. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 08:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

level3 warnings

I don't see the discussion about level 3, I probably missed it. Sorry if I bring a point that has already been discussed.

I have some concerns about the wording of the level3 template: "The next time you vandalise Wikipedia, you will be blocked.". An editor that gets the level3 template is most probably a vandal and might see it as a challenge "you don't dare doing that again". Most of RC changes patrollers however don't have admin tools and can't issue blocks. I think a better wording would be that the next time the user will be reported to an admin for measures. a bit like "The next time you vandalize Wikipedia, you will be reported to the administrative group and may be blocked". -- lucasbfr ^talk 17:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Certainly doesn't sound unreasonable to me, I only put the template together just to get the ball rolling. Maybe wait till all of the templates on the overview are on review and then unless anyone complains change the incorrect ones at the same time, and do the template now. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in my templates I left the original sentence, for consistency. Let's wait until all are created to see. -- lucasbfr ^talk 00:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it should say "the next time you will be reported to an admin", because sometimes the person giving the warning is an admin. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-17 19:59Z

In that case, maybe do like {{test4}} and {{test4alt}}? but I would prefer the "reported to an admin" to be the default behavior (I think most patrollers are not admins) and the create a {{xxx3admin}}? Or maybe add an admin argument to the templates? (for example {{xxx3|Test}} would put the "reported to admins" one and {{xxx3|Test|admin=y}} the admin version? -- lucasbfr ^talk 00:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I still prefer no "will report you to admins" at all, it sounds too much like the childish "I'm going to tell on you" tattletale threat. I believe there was a past discussion on this, not sure where though. Vandals needing to be blocked should be reported at WP:AIAV and should get a firm "you will be blocked" message as their last warning. "You may be blocked" is too weak (only reasonably experienced Wikipedians should be using warning templates anyway, so just say it strongly). —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 00:57Z

Copied from TeckWiz talk page for further concensus.

Thanks for taking on the npa warnings. Just a question why do you consider it's not possible to have a npa0 & 1 warning. IMHO it is possible to give a warning for personal attacks AND assume good faith at the same time. Example, is a new editor not familiar with how editors talk to each other who calls someone an idiot in a minor disagreement the same as an editor calling another an 'effin' loser. The guidelines recommends have warnings 0 - 3 for blockable and 0 - 2 for not blockable, and if we don't try to keep to that we will end up with exactly the same system we have now, bits of warning here and there and no consistency. Just my thoughts whaddya reckon? Cheers again Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess a npa1 can be used. but 0 is definitely too light. If someone for example, brings up on an article talk page how "some idiot" keeps removing one of his details, but also explains why, he's just losing a little of his cool. I guess that that could be an npa1. But, something like capitalizing on the user's talk page "YOU IDIOT!", should definitely deserve a npa2 or 3. Also, anything that would be considered vandalism, except for the fact that it's an attack, like blanking someones userpage with "You (any profanity)!!!" should be considered npa3. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 21:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to gain some concensus on this matter from the other project members please. Guidelines call for 0 - 3 level warning, and if we start picking and choosing which levels of warning to create then we are IMHO replacing one system of mismatched warnings for another. Looking through WP:NPA I think there is lot of scope for assuming good faith with as another example an editor who has a long and distinguished editing history, who has just got heated under the collar, I would prefer to see all four levels of warning created, and let the issuing editor decide on the level of infraction and the severity of the warning to be issued. Thoughts please. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 08:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Khukri, it is possible for a good faith editor to get flustered and say things he doesn't really mean. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 01:07Z

Unsourced

Seem to also cover NOR - suggest we rename those to nor0, nor1, as opposed to unsourced0, unsourced1 etc. Easier to remember and faster to type. Thoughts? KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Let's keep both names. "Unsourced" may be easier to remember for some people. Either one is fine as the primary name. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 01:13Z

CSD warnings

Hi guys, sorry did not even know this Wikiproject existed.

I thought I would tell you guys three things that I am doing at the moment with CSD warning templates, and see you have any comments or issues.

1. Wikipedia talk:Template messages/User talk namespace#CSD deletion templates creating a new set of CSD deletion templates to be used instead of CSD warning templates, when an Admin deletes article.
2. Merging of redundant CSD templates Template:nn-notice into Template:nn-warn and Template:spam-notice into Template:spam-warn, as well as any other redundant ones I can find - appropriate process used see talk pages.
3. The heading issue with CSD warning templates has been raised here Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#CSD templates and solution is here Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#CSD templates - HEADINGS. The solution allows for headers if so desired.

I suppose there might be some big issues with the final point, considering one of the Goals on this project is to have NO HEADINGS. But maybe you might want to consider the solution mentioned above - allow best of both worlds. Cheers Lethaniol 15:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, doesn't look like there is any problems for us with what you are doing with CSD's even with the headers, as one off messages such as CSD, welcomes, etc, are different from warnings which tend to be used more frequently on the user page. However, as you demonstrated by not knowing we existed, it shows how fragmented the generation of templates is on Wikipedia. I and a couple of other editors have ideas in the near future to bring all message templates under the roof of one project, with an idea to harmonise the format of everything. If you have a look at our redirects page some of the templates you mentioned are on there. It's a large ask, and editors like yourself with experience in certain areas, would be an asset. If you're interested let me know, but it will not get into full flow until the new year until the work slows up here. Regards Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 15:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay will get to it, also would like to help out, will add my name to the list, and help out in new year cheers Lethaniol 16:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

New template features

Using some fancy template syntax, I have managed to enrich some existing projects with the following features:

• Optional text, as requested above, carried in the second parameter {{{2}}} - this will be embedded within the message box right after the standard text.
• Optional signatures - embedded signatures are on by default, but if you pass an extra parameter {{...|sig=n}}, it will not be inserted.

All this is done with this piece of code:

{{{2|}}} {{subst:<includeonly></includeonly>#ifeq:{{{sig}}}|n| |~~<includeonly></includeonly>~~}}

Also, we're switching the design from <div>s to wikitables. This has few advantages, including that the images will not "spill" out of the message boxes if the text is very short. Few existing projects have already been converted to the new scheme. You can see a demo on User:Khukri/templates - when creating new templates series, please copy that code (in edit-mode, not by subst:'ing). Thank you, Миша13 17:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Update: all existing templates made so far by people have been updated to the new scheme. Миша13 19:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

And examples now added on discussion pages. Thanks to Misza for all time taken. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 20:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. Is this going to add a lot of markup when substituted? (I guess it's really a missing feature in MediaWiki that you can't "fully transclude and remove all template markup".) —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 22:36Z

Removing warning templates

Hi. I've read that it's okay to remove warnings from your own talk page, but have re-discovered what I thought to be the rule, so my question is, when should a template like Template:Removewarn (is there any other like it?) be used, if at all? THanks. Xiner (talk, email) 22:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no policy against removing warnings without archiving them, however it is generally frowned upon. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 22:34Z

Edit summaries

I was just bitten for the first time for leaving an edit summaries reminder on a fellow Wikipedian. Can't say I'm surprised, for I knew something like this would happen. I should've listened more to my gut feelings; the current template may look like a warning to some, even though it should never rise to that level, and while I understand it's guidelines and believe it should be done etc, some people just don't see the point, and until they do, no amount of pleading will change their perspective. I don't know what the solution is. Xiner (talk, email) 22:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Your message to him seemed friendly. I note this user has been blocked before for incivility, personal attacks, and edit warring, so I would just move on. I think the template is fine. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-19 22:43Z

Okay. Thanks. Xiner (talk, email) 23:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Test template redirecting

I don't think {{test}} should redirect to {{test0}} like it says in the table, it should go to test1, there'll be less confusion among editors. --WikiSlasher 02:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this. -- Renesis (talk) 04:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Your wish is my command, done! Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 07:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The wording for test1 is the old test2 wording, i.e. second warning. Most people using {{test}} probably mean it to be the first warning. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-20 09:36Z

I haven't looked at the exact wording for reference, but I was under the impression that both test0 and test1 were first warnings. (In other words, you start with one or the other.) Is this not the case? -- Renesis (talk) 01:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe this system should work in that every new offending user has to have a level0 warning on their talk page as the start point without question. From then on in if they come back in a week a month time then the start point will be level 1. And to me even if it is blatant vandalism, then it shows we have taken the moral high ground, and not just jumped down someones throat. I've seen alot of posts flying around in other areas of wikipedia, about how quickly one can get to a block. But this is where the discretion of an editor comes into play.

This isn't directed at you Ren but just some rambling thoughts for others passing through to read. If you have an empty talk page and you bosh out straight away a {{uw-vandalism3}} then you'll have no chance of getting a block. But if the editor has received a 0, 2, 3 been blocked then a 1, 2, 3 then I'm sure there are very few admins who will ignore you if the next time you come in straight away with a 3 to a repeating offender/institution. So in the long term it's better to dish out the warnings in the correct order to speed the process up in the long term. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 09:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The next step

There are only 5 more templates to be taken, so if you have a spare 20 mins please help yourselves.

The next step, once all of the template pages are completed, we will leave the pages on review for a couple of weeks, putting a banner ad on the project page announcing they are for review and any comments are to be left on the talk page and we will do any modifications. I suggest what with Chrimbo and new year, we leave the review period until the 2nd week of January, thoughts please?

After that will be to set an implementation day, we are lucky enough to have a number of admins on the interested and active list. A fair few of our templates are fully protected, so I suggest the day before implementation you (the admins amongst us) change all templates from fully to semi protected so editors like myself can do some of the work. Then we change over all in the quickest possible time including the redirects. Also I recommend that all of us involved meet up on an IRC channel prior to put everything into place to hammer out any details. So when do we go for it? I'm ok most days and I suggest a morning UTC so we can get all of the European and American editors in the same place at the same time at a reasonable hour, and any date except the 21st Jan as it my birthday, and I will be drinking at a rugby match somewhere! Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 09:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Good. Discussion for the change should be widely announced: on {{cent}}, WP:AN, WP:VP. Aaron Breneman has already been preemptively unprotecting warning templates, the subject of a current dispute. I agree that the holiday season should be avoided. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-20 09:34Z

I've done a fair amount of spamming for this over the last couple of months, what with signpost and all that. Hopefully those that haven't heard will start realising somethings a miss when their warnings change on them, and it doesn't have the same meaning as before, which is bound to happen. The only thing I'm not looking forward to is people coming in and saying why weren't they informed, a small group hidden away somewhere, and that they find it all unacceptable. But anyway, in the mean time one thing UW members can do is sit on the recent changes page, and spam any warning issuing editor with the message that can be found here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Khukri (talk • contribs) 10:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC) That is I think the first time I've done that!!!! Bugga there goes my next RfA out of the window ;) Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 13:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. --WikiSlasher 13:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I might also suggest dropping a link on the 'Notices' section of the Community bulletin board as well, perhaps with some sort of laymen's education or quick summary of what has/is going down on a separate link sos people can catch up. Put in a quick talk into the IRC for #wikipedia, #en-wikipedia, #vandalproof (these templates might fuck up their program? talk to User:AmiDaniel), #wikipedia-spam-t and #vandalism-en-wp. Finally, let the "wikipedia news world" know - Signpost tipline, Wikizine (aka Walter's meta talkpage) and WikipediaWeekly - sos they can let their readers in on it. JoeSmack ^Talk 15:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I've done

• Signpost
• Village pump
• Admin notice board
• couple of IRC channels
• The VP mob, via the VP page and the IRC channel.
• Indiscriminate spam attacks on RC patrollers.
• Admins I know of the top of my head involved in RC patrol

So if someone else can do the others please, and add them to this list. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 11:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Recently? Considering this is all coming to a head, it might be worth it to get some current updates to these places (signpost, VP etc) JoeSmack ^Talk 20:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Merging of projects

There's another project looking at the layout of warnings, who as far as I can see have a similar remit to us. I left a message with them a couple of weeks back with no responses, but I can see no reason why we don't merge their project into ours. Any thought please? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 11:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

OK spoken to Pathoschild and he's for it am now leaving messages with the members. So unless I get any response against it, within the next couple of days I will merge and redirect the Wikipedia:WikiProject on user warning layout standardisation to this project. As I've stated before it is in Wikipedia's best interest that there is one sole project looking after templates. So if anyone knows of any other fringe (I mean that with respect) projects let me know and I will look to the synergies and merging of project. In the end I would like to see this project here to help and become the driving force behind WP:UTM and have UTM as the only project looking after templates. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 10:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Last chance, will merge them this evening. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 08:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do, there's barely enough critical mass of active participants to operate one WikiProject. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-27 12:24Z

Done and dusted, see below. What's next? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Merged from WP:UWLS--WP:UW

Hi, Pathos I know you are involved heavily in both projects. I'm having a look round at your mandate here, and the mandate of the revitalised User Warnings Project and there is alot of synergy and think we can pool our resources. Any thoughts on a merge of projects and resources? Regards Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm confused on what the difference is between the two projects. -- nae'blis 21:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

All members have been informed, if there are no further responses by 27th December, this project will be merged with WP:UW. Regards Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 12:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not thoroughly convinced of a merge because even though both projects are about warning templates, they seem to me to be very different things. By that, I mean WP:UW seems to be about standardising the look and wording of the templates that are posted to user talk pages. While WP:UWLS seems to be about making a standard layout of templates that are posted to user talk pages; the monthly headers and bullets and so on. --Geniac 17:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

As you mentioned both project are about warning templates, and with the amount of work we have recently taken on, to add the headers and bullets, etc would not be a huge amount of work. Also if the members here were willing to come over with the work then I can see no difference on how the work is being carried out, but just where it is being done. Eventually I would like to create a one stop shop for all templates, so new editors don't bounce around from pillar to post if they have any questions and all templates are managed from one central location. Once we have done the leveled warnings, hopefully finished mid-end Jan, we will be starting on welcome templates, sharedip and all other single issue templates, and I think it would be good if we are all singing off the same hymn sheet instead of one group doing the borders, another doing the text, and another deciding what size we should do the images. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 21:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I understand the preference for a one stop shop; I was just concerned that merging projects with different goals would mean that one or the other would be lost in the shuffle. I assume you mean for everything user talk namespace template related, not all templates (navboxes, infoboxes, etc)? --Geniac 01:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Yep, only userspace. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 09:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm OK with the merge now and happy with the answers to my questions. --Geniac 13:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Page move templates

I noticed on the overview page that the page move templates are listed with question marks at the bottom of the first redirect table. Is there a reason that they haven't been moved to the main section? It seems as if it could be included easily, by adding this line to the end:

Page moves	{{move0}}	{{move1}}	{{move2}}	{{move3}}	Yes	Unassigned	Not started

-- kenb215 talk 23:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Add away, I think I only questioned marked it as I wasn't sure at the time if I could merge it with something else. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 11:23, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Added. -- kenb215 talk 04:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Modifying/adding parameter to {{subst:UE}}

Hi. I'm really not sure where to ask this question, but here goes. I'm involved with Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English, which lists and evaluates non-English pages before they are PROD'ed, speedied, or put up for AfD. As part of that work, we warn the posters of the non-English content, using {{subst:UE}}. Now, that template already has one optional parameter, to list the name of the article posted. But I would really like there to be another such parameter, where we could specify the language edition Wikipedia of the content. That could produce a message encouraging the user to contribute to that specific language Wikipedia. Basically, I'm thinking something like {{subst:UE|Article|ru.wikipedia.org}}. At PNT, users are already identifying language-of-content, and I really think this modification could be helpful. How/where do I propose this template modification? Thanks for the assistance. --Fsotrain⁰⁹ 20:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you might have the wrong place. I'd try Wikipedia:Help desk or Wikipedia:Village pump (assistance) with this exact same post. Good luck! JoeSmack ^Talk 21:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Transfering

When should we start transferring the templates on the subpages to their new pages? TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 17:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

As alot of the template names are already used, we can't roll them out piecemeal until they are all finished, as we will end up with a hotchpotch of warnings and levels. When all of the templates are finished and have a successful review period, then we'll start implementing, but lets get them all finished first. I think third/fourth week in Jan will be a likely time for roll out. If you want something to do in the meantime, as well as the outstanding templates, Joesmack had mentioned [[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_user_warnings#The_next_step|here]] about re-doing some of the notify alls, if you want to help out. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Block Templates

Okay-I'm not that good at parser functions, but from looking at the template, I was able to remove one function that was in the template twice. However, the article function doesn't seem to working the way that the usage stated, and the way it should be if you look at which function number it is. Help is needed. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 17:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem ;) Pathoschild is on a wikibreak at the moment working in wikimedia, so his template isn't up for review yet. I'll leave it a week or so and then I'll leave him a message, as round here there's a couple who can do the funstions pretty good, Misza et al, if he doesn't come back in time. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Usage Notices

It seems that the usage template, which is not included in transclusioning, can sometimes differ from the actual usage, like the block templates. So, I think that the actual usage template should be subst'd on the template page, and then fixed to conform with the template it's talking about. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 18:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Where to redirect

On the overview page, when it lists where to redirect, what do the new sections with the number 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 mean? TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 18:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

They're just arbitrary page breaks otherwise you're editing one monster page. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism Templates for WP:UW

Hope you don't mind TeckWiz, but I copied your post over from my talk page, as it's quite a pertinant discussion, and needs the whole projects input.

Since we have separated test templates and vandalism templates, I don't see why we should have a vandalism level 0. If you can't give it above a 0, it's really a test, not vandalism, as current guidelines state to start at level 2 for nonsense and such. I personally don't even think there should be a vand1, but other users do so it should stay. I think there should be no level 0 for other types of vandalism also, like blanking. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 18:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The reason (in my opinion) that we have level 0 with the new system for all templates is that we have to assume good faith with first time editors. I know it's contradictory to AGF with someone who has just left "I love Doris" on a page. But if we at first have concilatory tones try to educate someone about their expected composure whilst editing, then we might just get another good editor out it. I know it's a pain in the proverbial after a night of RCP'ing where one just assumes the worst in every editor. We have to take the moral high ground, and be always reasonable to new editors. But as soon as someone has one level0 warning on their page, that's it, they've been told and it's open season if they choose to vandalise again. I also believe it's important that you add this for the npa warnings, because as soon as we deviate from the new layout then we are just negatiing the reason for having a new system and are just recreating the old, with a varied system of warnings. Would appreciate other members thoughts here please. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 18:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Deal-killing issue

All of this work is admirable, but there is something that is going to cause massive problems when this is implemented, and may even cause all of these templates to be rolled back: The proposed list has the {{test0}}, {{test1}}, {{test2}}, {{test3}} and {{block}} scale, but it eliminates the {{test4}} level, making it equal to a current {{test5}}. Administrators who don't RC patrol, vandal patrollers coming back from wikibreaks, or even well-informed users already know that {{test4}} means final warning. Any attempts to change that are going to go against a deeply engraved grain, and may meet considerable resistance. It would be much easier to just keep {{test4}} and have the rest of the changes adjust to having one more level. Titoxd^(?!?) 22:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Test 4 will redirect to the new test3. See Wikipedia:WikiProject user warnings/Overview#Redirect overview --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 22:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Then you are eliminating test2, which is equally as bad. Titoxd^(?!?) 22:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

No you aren't. {{test3}} is going to be re-written to the new template, and {{test4}} is going to redirect to {{test3}} to stop any problems. {{test2}} is going to be re-written into the new test2. Iced Kola 03:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

But you're still eliminating a level. That is not a good idea, as most users are already used to the 1->4 scale. Titoxd^(?!?) 22:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

In two and a half months your the first editor who I've come across who wants to keep all the levels. Reducing the number down removes ambiguity, most users are blocked after three warnings so long as they are given the final warning beit test4 or in future vandalism3, why have five, 0 - 4? I think with the new ideas of Quarl mentioned below and the redirects I think have almost every angle covered. If some people might not like it, because its a change to their routine, this is not a valid reason for stopping the project now. If however it's people might not like it because <<insert reason here>> then we will have a look but I'll say up until this point we seemed to have some form of consensus. Change isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the more we can make users aware and the reasons behind the project then the less painful the change will be. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 23:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

That I'm the only one who has seen this does not make the complaint less valid. Backwards compatibility is a proper reason to not change things. I haven't seen one rationale why removing a level is desirable, much less needed. Titoxd^(?!?) 23:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I just gave one removing ambiguity. Look here WP:UTM levels 0, 1, & 2, why have a good faith edit, and a general note and then a could be seen as ..... Have a look at AIV, at the different combinations of warnings that vandals receive before they are reported. If someone doesn't assume good faith, should all 5 levels of warning be applied? I think if you read through all the talk pages, speak to Pathoschild etc, you'll find more than enough rationale for the change. What is your argument for keeping 5 levels of warning? Are you speaking from personal concern, where do you see the holes? Backwards compatibilty is covered anyhoo, as I said before with the naming convention and the redirects, that was our first concern. I certainly haven't seen a deal killing issue as of yet. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 00:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see several issues. Let's tackle them one by one:

1 First, the way I see test0 applied is when an RC patroller is either not sure about the vandalistic nature of an edit, or believes that the edit is innocuous enough to not receive a test1. Rarely, if ever, a vandal goes from test0 to test5, because test0 is reserved for edits that can be stretched as non-vandalistic.

Hence we have a good faith level of warning, if a warning/message is to be issued and the editor is unsure a good faith warning level0 would be given, this has not changed. Also test warnings will not be blockable it will be purely be for editing tests, so if you see someone righting ssdfdddfffgggggg you can give test warnings instead of vandalism. K

2 When a vandal is blocked, it is usually considered proper to skip test1 and begin with test2. In the new list, you would only have two warnings before a block, and that is not enough.

Wrong where you start has just changed. All new talk pages will commence with a level 0 warning. If they are a returning vandal you start straight away at 1 and go from there with three other warning levels to give. K

3 The current system is properly documented, and in fact, is known by most users, whether they RC patrol or not. A change of this magnitude would require rewriting all of Wikipedia's anti-vandalism documentation, which I truly don't see the benefit of.

and documentation can be changed, mindsets can be changed, as I said before because people might not like change it is not a valid reason. K

4 Whether many vandals are blocked after three warnings is irrelevant - many others (I argue most) are blocked after four, and it is the admin's prerogative to determine whether the warnings were applied fairly or not. Hence, reports at WP:AIV are summarily dismissed from time to time due to improper warnings.

Why is it irrelevant, because blocks are sometimes applied incrrectly is not a reason. If a vandal or an insulter is given three warning will a fourth make any difference if they are given in the correct order. 1) this is unacceptable behaviour, 2) Please do not continue, 3) this is your last warning. WP:VAND only states that warnings do no not need to be applied in the correct order before a block, is given not how many. K

5 Personally, I think the labels at the top of WP:UTM are misleading - test1 is not a general warning, and test2 is not a possible violation. They're levels of severity, and many other admins see them as such. I've seen {{bv}} misused a lot because only the latter columns have a header that indicates a clear problem is occuring. I can't buy the ambiguity reason because of this.

Hence the reason to get rid of these anachronistic templates, and create a well structured system, where every warning fits into a table, so people know exactly the severity of every warning. K

Finally, I knew about this project when Pathoschild began it, as he invited me to join. I declined the offer at the time, but I was curious to see what was going on and I ran into this. I do not believe that the issues here are visible enough to support a change of this magnitude if challenged. Titoxd^(?!?) 00:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

What magnitude? It is not that big an issue. I'm trying to answer every single one of your questions reasonably, but most of this has been discussed through all the talk pages. And I get the feeling you will not be swayed and most of the arguments are from a personal wish not to see change. So we can get to some form of concensus.

1. Will the redirects cover your backward compatibility issue, you never responded, if not why and how do you see that we can correct this?
2. If we make a best attempt to make sure the documentation is in order explaining rationale, basically what we have discussed here, will this cover the some users might not like it argument.
3. Can you show me the documentation that lists the order of how warnings are given so we can change them in the future.

It's very clear your position and I personally don't think what ever I demonstrate or say here will change your opinion. So we are at an impass, do we continue or not, where do we go from here, what do we need to do to assuage your concerns? Comme tu veux ol son. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 09:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, continue. I really like the progress this project is making; the current template list is disorganized as a result of growing organically for so long, and it becomes really frustrating when one is looking for something similar to test3 for adding unsourced material and finding it doesn't exist. The idea Physicq210 brings up would be an adequate compromise, IMO. Titoxd^(?!?) 01:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Just double checked the overview table was correct with only test warnings level 0 - 2, but I'd messed the redirects table up. test4 will redirect to vandalism3 as the final warning, and test3 will move to vandalism2 as the severe warning. The test warnings aren't blockable.

Yes I'm sure there are going to be problems with people issuing warnings when it doesn't read the same as they thought it would. Eliminating anything isn't bad, it's just involves a change of mindset and an understanding of why this is being done. Once implemented, I'm sure there will be people suddenly coming in here suggesting we should have done things differently. I've contacted as many groups/projects and publicised this as much as I could, and if anyone else would like to do some more please feel free. But if we hang around trying to make sure that everyone is happy, we will never get this off the ground and there has to come a time where we have to just go for broke and put a system in place that can last a long time.

I personally suspect the changeover will be quite short, look at all of you when you first started RC Patrolling it didn't take long to find out about warnings and the such. And I think the changeover will be the same, people will get curious why something is different they will go to the template page, or it's talk page and we'll leave notices everywhere. Change doesn't have to be difficult, and I've already seen on quite a few talk pages, members letting other groups know that there are changes afoot.

My only real major concern, is the vandal tools guys. I've told the VP lot but I think once we enter the review period on all the templates, then we can analyse all the impacts and we'll have a couple of weeks to hopefully redress the issues. And on that note there are only 5 templates not assigned, I've done 4 already, Lucas and a couple of others have done their fair share so please, someone finish them off, so we can get to the review phase. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 10:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Alternatively, we can just shift all the levels up one; for example the current test0 is test1, test1 is test2, test2 is test3, etc. I'm only suggesting, as a 1 -> 4 system is easier to remember than a 0 -> 3 system (at least to me). -²¹⁰physicq (c) 00:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

New names for templates

The problem of level changing (agreeing with Tixtoxd that changing from the levels we're all used to will create mistakes and have huge pushback), plus the difficult implementation problems, are solved if the new templates are all installed at new names. That way the old ones can be slowly deprecated over time, as the migration process may take months, given number of people, not to mention programs, used to them. Redirecting existing testN templates to other existing testN templates is asking for trouble. We might use creativity to come up with new pithy names, or use a new common prefix, such as "uw-". —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-29 23:03Z

I like Quarl's idea of "uw". This will help separate it from non user warning templates, as there are probably templates to put on article pages like POV, which could be under the same current names proposed know for the POV warning. It also fixes that "I didn't know they got changed" problem. --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 03:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The only template this will effect with an huge consequence is the test templates, and to a lesser degree the spam, agf's, etc and if you look at the template table, most of the new templates are redlinks. I don't mind adding uw if other members think it'll be worth while, but I've already made my thoughts clear on this talk page on the changeover period. Yes it'll be turbulent, but certainly not insurmountable. We are getting to the point where there are enough of us keen to do the work to hopefully see this thing sail through. Look at this talk page now, someone asks a question, and instantly there's a couple of you at hand to jump on the subject. Whereas before weeks would go by here, without a response to a question, so thankyou all. The only other thing with the uw tag is it might be a mnemonic that can identify which project is responsible for the template at a glance, but that's already included in this {{Templatesnotice}}, so comme tu veux (up to you). Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 10:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I do like the uw prefix as a mnemonic, making it much easier to find templates, and for namespacing, to prevent collisions like the POV example TeckWiz pointed out. Also I think you may underestimate the amount of controversy a relatively small change can generate, see examples at WP:LAME, current controversy in WP:NC-TV. The scope of this project is susceptible to the bikeshed problem. On Wikipedia, where there is no authority (with exceptions) to declare consensus in the typical debate, a small minority can effectively filibuster any en masse change. I really think this turbulence should be avoided if at all possible, and new names will make this go much smoother. In-place renaming would require a huge coordination (for example, how do you simulatenously also change all users' userscripts?). I can pretty much guarantee that if we change for example test3 => test2 that there will be complaints for months, but more likely the changes would be rolled back before then or even vetoed from the start. On the other hand if we create uw-test2 then we can leisurely deprecate test3 towards uw-test2 at some point in the future. As for the recent incoming commentators, it might be because of the I put a notice on {{cent}}, or somewhere else someone has announced recently. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-30 11:18Z

I am for Khukri's solution as to not worry about the bikeshed problem and let people deal with it, but I'm leaning more towards Quarl's uw- incorporation; there's no good reason why having both is a bad idea (at least for a time) before the old is phased out for the new. JoeSmack ^Talk 17:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Eliminate the boxes around the new warnings

Putting the warnings inside of message boxes, like we're doing, is what messes a lot of things up. Just to start off the long list of problems, almost all vandal fighting programs/scripts put the signature in the message, so a user's signature would show up twice, and programs like VandalProof that include a link to the diff would have the warning and the diff seperate, possible confusing a newbie who doesn't know what is/isn't vandalism. Does anyone agree? Iced Kola 03:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree it would be a problem; this was brought up and addressed above, please read the sections "IMPORTANT: Signatures" and "New template features". I think at this point it's at worst a minor nuisance, though there may be other stylistic concerns about the boxes. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-30 04:19Z

Wikipedia Day Awards

• Moved to User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week

Straw Poll on Adding the "uw-" prefix

This discussion has discussed whether to add the "uw-" prefix to all of our user warning templates. This is wanted because it would eliminate the confusion of users warning people with templates like test3, not knowing it's meaning was changed. No cons are seen. . Please help determine consenus below. Explanation optional.

Support adding "uw-" prefix to all new templates

1. Eliminates confused users and problems improperly warned people. --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 21:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
2. I would have prefered to get it all out of the way in one go, but if it gets rid of alot of the worries then, why not. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 22:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
3. (obviously, since I proposed this) —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-01-01 22:58Z
4. Not only for these reasons. I also think adding a prefix as with the "db-" templates might be a good idea. -- lucasbfr ^talk 23:15, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
5. As I said before, no good reason not to do this so both can exist at the same time (for a while before people use the better/newer templates universally). JoeSmack ^Talk 02:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
6. It's the best solution for the likely problems that have been discussed. -- Satori Son 02:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
7. Support, per many of the opinions above. --NMajdan•talk 21:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Oppose (keep as is)

1. This new proposal doesn't explain why any change is actually needed. It needs clarification and rewording before I can consider it. - Mgm|^(talk) 13:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

   Are you objecting to the uw- prefix or the overall changes? —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-01-02 13:07Z

Comments

Comment: can you explain further what the problem is with keeping them the way they are now? Unless I'm not fully understanding the situation, I would definitely oppose this change. -- Renesis (talk) 21:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• In the first sentence of the straw poll, it gives a piped link saying this discussion. (It didn't work before because I hit the number sign instead of the pipe character) --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 21:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

  Yes, but since I wasn't involved in the discussion, I don't really understand why we have a problem. I understand this change was discussed, but what is the problem in the first place? -- Renesis (talk) 21:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

  There are two problems that I see. The first is that someone the has been on Wikibreak, or just hasn't read a page saying it, may not know that the warning levels and templates have changed. An example would know be that according to the overview plan, the test templates will be for actual tests (can I type here?) only, not vandalism also, which is how it's used now. Instead we'll have vandalism template. The second problem is that some template may be confused for things belonging elseware, like someone wanting to put on an article a tag the says it may contain POV. They may not like the POV template, so they would assume POV2 is another POV template, where it's really a warning template. --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 21:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

  In the case of name-conflicts with non warning templates, we should just find a different name altogether. -- Renesis (talk) 22:51, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

  But the name should be relevant, related, and easy. If there were non user warning templates at Template:pov and Template:npov, what would you name it. --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 23:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

  I'd have to think about it, but this should absolutely not be justification for prefixing all templates with uw-. Programmers have to deal with naming conflicts all the time, but it doesn't mean you create a new namespace every time you find a conflict. -- Renesis (talk) 23:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

  It's not a new namespace. It would be located at Template:uw-NAME OF TEMPLATE. --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 00:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

  Namespace (also Namespace (computer science)#Emulating namespaces), not Wikipedia:Namespace. -- Renesis (talk) 00:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

  I agree that namespacing shouldn't be thrown around carelessly, but in this situation I think namespacing is appropriate, for "official" warnings. Compare the db- templates. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-01-01 00:58Z

• Copy of new overview page here looks pretty good I think. Maybe shorten vandalism down to vand and defamatory? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 10:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, I agree that uw-vand and uw-defam would be fine, and also uw-notcens. They can all have lots of redirects of course so uw-vand2, uw-vandal2, uw-vandalism2 would all work; it's just a matter of which one is advertised as the mnemonic. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-01-02 10:25Z

• Also with your uw- idea (you're my hero ;) )it'll mean we are the only ones with templates in the area so won't get in anyone elses way. Also with this idea the existing re-directs become obsolete, well for the beginning anyway, until we want to phase out the old warnings. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 10:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

How come the "uw-" in the overview table starts lowercased, yet in the redirect table, it's uppercased ("Uw")? --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 12:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

It's to do with wikipedia capitalising first letters. Even when you click on the redlink in the overview table it will take you to a uppercase template page. If you look here even though you write {{test3}} it'll still take you to an upper case version. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 12:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're talking about the transclusion redlinks in the "What it makes" column, once the templates are filled with content they'll be transcluded and you won't see the name at all in the table. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-01-02 12:53Z

I should also add Misza's second parameter to both the templatenotice and the what to type page. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 12:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Info Icon

Renesis13 changed the icon on the {{Templatesnotice}} to the new design, which looks much better. So could everyone responsible for a template page update their pages to the new version. I'll do all mine and the base template, most probably after my wife has dragged me round the gardeening centre this afternoon. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 13:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Glad you like it! I made this with the intention of making the UW templates look more uniform in appearance, and I may make a stop sign one when I have some time. One reason why I didn't replace this image anywhere besides the {{Templatesnotice}} is that I wasn't sure if the samples on the UW sandbox pages are actually indicating that the templates (level 0 and 1) will contain that image. Is that the case? -- Renesis (talk) 22:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

All taken, only four to finish

• Daniel & Ken's look almost finished so I think these can go up for review if you'd like to do that. Misza has just one level to complete. Teck I know you think it's not necessary, but humour me please ;), I've done the defamatories and I think your npa's can be along the same lines for the first two levels.... please........

• Misza has moded the {{Templatesnotice}} and after Teck's question about the blocks I've created {{Blocksnotice}} to explain the parser functions on the additional texts and sig functions.

• I think we can just go ahead with Quarl's uw- proposal. Now if this is the case, it means the redirects will not be needed in the short term. If you all think it would be helpful I therefore suggest we copy all our templates over to their respective individual pages, and this means we can use the page on my sandbox to create a more complete review. Thoughts please? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 21:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Lets do it, i'm ready to start this. If you look at my contribs, you can see I drop a lot of user warnings on talk pages, and I'm excited to spin the wheels on the end product of the WikiProject. JoeSmack ^Talk 21:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Per this thread at the admin noticeboard, crz has created a new UW template for people who are "biting" newbies. My question is -- what process have we implemented for people to create new templates, and keep the project organized at the same time? Also, I have some time if there is anything I can do. -- Renesis (talk) 22:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

This sort of warning comes into the one off type of warning, much like {{editsummary}}, {{Double redirect}}, etc. These warnings will be covered in the second phase of this project, where we look at everything else on and bring them together. Depending on if anyone objects in the next 48 hours or so, I think if you want something to do you can help me create all the new individual template pages, cutting and pasting the text in. Question for admins, do we delete the old grouped template pages, or just stuff them in a archive corner somewhere? If the outstanding templates are completed soon, I still see the third week in January as an optimistic date to go live with all these templates. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 22:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I can do that. What is the process for that? Creating Template:Uw-spam0 and pasting the contents from the spam page into it? About the grouped template pages, if they are not historical, I'd think we can delete them. I can do this if you make a list of the ones that are ready to be deleted. -- Renesis (talk) 23:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The eternal question

OK it's already becoming obvious here that we are going to have language differences acorss our templates, I've already seen one that uses both types of English. WP:MOS just states that the language should be either dependant on it's subject matter, or as a final recourse must stay in the language of the initial editor. Just to plagarise (notice no Z) Finally, in the event of conflicts on this issue, please remember that if the use of your preferred version of English seems like a matter of great national pride to you, the differences are actually relatively minor when you consider the many users who are not native English speakers at all and yet make significant contributions to the English-language Wikipedia, or how small the differences between national varieties are compared with other languages. What I would like to suggest is that we add to our mandate that all templates are written in X or Y. I think looking at the work that you all do round here that most of you will be above the language issue but I think it would be good to have continuity throughout the project as I can't stand seeing Vandalise on one template and Vandalize on another. So I'll start

• Neutral even though I personally use British English I just want one or the other. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 10:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• British English, as it's spoken across the whole of the Commonwealth (with the exception of Canada - 53 different nations), and is the form most commonly taught in countries where English is not the mother language. In the interests of worldwide accessibility (and not just the fact that I'm British - honest!), I feel British English is the form we should use. ShakingSpirit^talk 13:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• Neutral i would say whatever they do now in all the old templates; i never even stopped to notice, but that seems best. JoeSmack ^Talk 13:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Change levels from 0 - 3 to 1 - 4

I think Physicq210 and Titoxd are on to something with changeing the levels from 0 -> 3 to 1 -> 4. I suggest when we put the templates into their respective pages we just increment the levels by 1. Let me know all what you think?

As I said above in the redirect thread, I think there is merit for both 0 and 1 level warnings. They are both "entry-level" warnings, with level 0 being a warning where they most likely meant no harm or were trying to be helpful (like '''Bold text''' or an external/spam link that was inappropriate but put in by someone trying to help), and level 1 being a first warning for somebody who's edits were less likely in good faith (I.E., someone who is new to Wikipedia and doesn't mean great harm, but thinks it's funny to put "Joe is dumb!" or someone who is trying to point traffic to their website). -- Renesis (talk) 17:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, I think it safe to say we can go ahead now, I'll finish off the npa warnings tomorrow evening most probably. Then we can copy all the rest of the warnings over to their respective templates pages. I also think we should use level 1 - 4 now as already mentioned. If someone has some time, I'm a wee bit busy at the mo, would they mind copying my sandbox page to the overview page but incrementing all warnings by 1. If not no problems I'll do it tomorrow evening. If anyone does do it, also please add a note to the top of the page saying these templates are only for review and are not to be used at the moment. Almost there, at last ...... Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 23:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all, why was the vandalism 3 template already created? Second, didn't we agree to change stuff like vandalism3 to vand3?

Because it was one I created for a test if that's OK? As for vand and defam there was only Quarl who responded I think. But as was also mentioned we can create {{uw-vandalism3}} but have a redirect from {{uw-vand3}} if necessary. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 05:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Right all done, I've created all of the individual template pages, and created the new overview page which will be the base for the remplacement WP:UTM page. Would one of our admins be so kind as to delete the old template pages which we used to start off please. I moved the old overview page over to my sandbox and the links can be found there.

OK I've done my piece for a wee while, I'm going to be busy back at work over the next couple of weeks, so won't be able to devote as much time to the project. Would someone please take care of the publicity campaign, to announce the upcoming changes please? I'll be keeping an eye out so any questions I'll try to respond. Thanks to all those who have done the template work and helped out. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 21:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

After I went back and read the text of the messages, I support this change. However, I am a little concerned at the now-absence of 0 level templates -- previously, they had been a mix between a welcome message and a warning, something which was useful because (as I said above) some users (particularly those adding inappropriately links and becoming candidates for the {{spam}} template) were actually attempting to improve the article, and a warning (even a level 1) seemed a bit harsh or cold. Can we add a provision for these for some of the template types? -- Renesis (talk) 03:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Civil(n) templates?

Are the civil templates not being considered as part of this project? --Ronz 21:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Had originally forseen amalgamating npa and civil under a global fits all template. Mainly because civil didn't have the full spectrum of warnings and could be incorporated quite easily within. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 21:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The view seems to be that boilerplate is not appropriate for civility reminders. The civility template was recently deleted on TfD.--Doc^g 15:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Could someone explain what this means? --Ronz 16:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

A Change of Notices Message

If anyone doesn't want to take the time to write their own message, the one below is the I left at Wikipedia talk:Recent changes patrol. It basically says the important stuff. Feel free to change it:

Though the following isn't effective yet, please read the following: Wikiproject user warnings has been working to redo all templates. Originally, plans were to slowly insert these, so people would know that the warnings had changed. However, this was thought to be bad, so all of the new templates of the project have a " uw- " in front of them. Another advantage of the prefix was so that the user warning template wouldn't get confused with something else (ie. a POV template for an article page and a POV template for a user talk page of a user who's inserting POV). This means that the old templates will still work as normal. However, these new templates are more organized. Level 0 has been eliminated, and the levels now go from 1-4. In addition, block templates are organized differently. All new templates automatically insert your signature, and all templates are completely lower-cased. An important note is that the new test templates are not blockable, as they are only for tests (i.e. can I really type here?). Things that test was previously used for, like vandalism, now have their own templates. The templates are currently on review until Jan. 22. For the complete list of templates, see Wikipedia:WikiProject user warnings/Overview. --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 21:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Spot on. Here's the one I did for sitting on the recent changes page, and just looking out for editors dishing out warnings. Thanks very much. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 21:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

{{Uw-3rr2}}

I just saw that this template was a placeholder. I edited it (even if I still feel it is a bit too long), don't hesitate to review and correct it! -- lucasbfr ^talk 12:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Feedback

I pasted the boilerplate request for feedback (I've noticed you recently used a template, etc.) provided by Khukri on BlankVerse's talk page. This was posted on my talk page as a result, moving here where the project can actually see it. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

-Begin pasted post-

I'm not sure why you asked for me to look at the 'discussion' on the new user templates.

I looked at the new designs shown here, and in my personal opinion, they are ugly as hell, as well as looking very impersonal and in-your-face. IMHO, for those problem editors who might be turned around into good contributors, the new versions will be much more likely turn them over to the dark side.

On the other hand, it looks like a small group of editors has been quietly working at the redesigns for months and they've already made up their mind, so my voice isn't going to change the current direction. Therefore, I see no reason to get involved. I'll predict, however, that when WP:UW tries to deprecate the numerous existing user warning templates that there will be tremendous resistance. I will NEVER use the new, very ugly, boxed (with extraneous graphics) user warning templates. ^BlankVerse 12:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

-End pasted post-

I can understand in some respect their sentiment, but these are the warning templates and I think we make ourselves look a bit unprofessional, for want of a better word, if we have frivolous images and colours plastered over warning templates. Once we go past the good faith warning which is the only one I would say has any need to be pleasing to the eye, then IMHO an editor is not going to be swayed by whether we dished out pretty warnings or not, but by the content or until they receive a block. However, I can see the single issue templates being slightly more aesthetic and pleasing to the eye.

I object to someone saying we've been quitely getting on with this, when I think I've most probably got up the nose of alot of admins and longterm editors going on about this, we've been at this now since the beginning of October with posting on most of the major notice boards.

Ugly as hell does not give us anything to go by, if you compare the {{test1}} warning to the {{uw-test1}} warnings or {{uw-vandalism1}} warnings, there's minor text change, it's boxed and there a standard image. If uglyness is denoted by one image and box when we look at the plethora of different formats, boxing, images on current templates then I think we're doomed to just creating another fragmented system, as editors create their pink fluffy boxes because they don't like a standard.

If he/she had analysed this project, then they would see we have had editors come in here with suggestions and we are open to suggestions. Now is the time to come up with suggestion whilst we are in the review period, it's not too late to change anything. But to have a dummy spit after the horse has bolted is fruitless and to talk of in digging heels now before we have even gone live is not productive. So in short, this project isn't here for me or any of the other editors on this project it's for the community. If you want to change something, change it but do it to all of the them. I know we are going to have as Quarl mentioned Bikeshed problems once it's gone live, but this project doesn't stop on the 22nd January, it's a work in progress, we've created a foundation take it and let it evolve, but I repeat, do your changes to all of the templates. If someone isn't happy, ask them to make suggestions, don't just criticise. We're not Wiki-luddites unwilling to see changes......... honest Template:Emot Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 13:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the style used on the table at here distorted their actual appearance, adding extra boxes around all of the tables. I changed the table to show the correct appearance. -- kenb215 talk 14:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Not really my speciality, but what about getting rid of (making invisible) the whole table, how does that look? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 14:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I quite agree so I went bold and removed the border. Hope it seems easier to sell now :) -- lucasbfr ^talk 16:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks better now, I too hope that we can sell this. Also I'm really serious though and with you saying about being WP:BOLD I don't want anyone to think that this is only for us and they have to obey our rules. This is for everyone, anyone gets any criticism like the puppies please send them here to give their suggestions or ideas. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 16:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I fixed the size issue with the table. The problem was just with a fixed size style used in the first line of the table. -- kenb215 talk 03:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Minor copyediting

Nothing major, just a quick log of little changes I've made to the templates - some of these may be based on what I think "reads better", so if you disagree with a change please reply here and/or revert it ^_^

• {{uw-vandalism1}} - "However, unconstructive edits, as you did to Article, are considered to be vandalism." -> "However, unconstructive edits, as you made to Article, are considered to be vandalism."

• {{uw-block3}} - "...including an explanation why you feel the block should be removed." -> "...including an explanation for why you feel the block should be removed."

• {{uw-test1}} - "Thank you for experimenting with, the page Article on Wikipedia." -> "Thank you for experimenting with the page Article on Wikipedia."

• {{uw-test3}} - "It is considered vandalism which under Wikipedia guidelines can lead to blocks being applied." -> "It is considered vandalism which, under Wikipedia guidelines, can lead to blocks being applied."

• {{uw-tpv2}} - "Please do not introduce some form of vandalism to the userpages of other users." -> "Please do not introduce any form of vandalism to the userpages of other users."

• {{uw-agf1}} - "However, we must insist that you assume good faith whilst interacting with other editors, which you did not do here, Article." -> "However, we must insist that you assume good faith whilst interacting with other editors, which you did not on Article."

(Same change made to agf2 and agf3 aswell. I noticed the same format being used on the npa templates too, which I haven't changed - does anyone else agree that my form is more readable, or is it just personal bias?)

• {{uw-defamatory1}} - "However, your recent edits , to Article have been reverted" -> "However, your recent edits to Article have been reverted"

• {{uw-defamatory2}} - "Please do not add defamatory content, as you did to Article, to Wikipedia." -> "Please do not add defamatory content to Wikipedia, as you did to Article."

• {{uw-joke2}} - "Remember, millions of people read Wikipedia, so we have to take what we do seriously here." -> "Remember, millions of people read Wikipedia, so we have to take what we do here seriously."

I will wikignomeify the rest when I get home from work ^_^ ShakingSpirit^talk 15:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• Any chance anyone could add the text about {{unblock}} to {{uw-block1}} & {{uw-block2}} please. I'm off out tonight on a mission. Cheers Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 17:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• Can anyone sort out the parser on {{uw-image1}} it will only put a space in if there is a comma after the pipe i.e. 1|}}}|, into [[:{{{1 but then the english reads rubbish. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 20:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

I would suggest getting rid of the border around the templates. _→AzaToth 18:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

OK we'll give it a try as you're the second who's not keen on the boxes.

Just so it can be mass undone by anyone, use AWB find background-color:#F8FCFF; and replace with background:#FFF; border:1px solid #AAA;

Like or dislike everyone? One thought though is that if people use different skins then it'll be messy, unless the background can be made transparent? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 19:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

We ought to set up a template so these can all be changed at once. I'd be happy to do so if you are fine with the idea. -- Renesis (talk) 20:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Knock yourself out, so long as we aren't creating a rod for our own back by making these things way too complex. Anyway what do you prefer, boxes or none? Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 20:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Without knowing how they will look once on a user's talk page, I prefer the boxes. However, signatures would be easier without the boxes (how did we solve that, anyway?) -- Renesis (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Tell you what I'll give you a warning on your talk page, then we can have an idea how it looks Template:Emot. Misza parsered the sig into the box, and if you look at {{Templatesnotice}} shows how you can disable it. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 21:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I've been dropping spam ones off on usertalk's, and i've noticed it makes it hard to distinguish from the standard IP boilerplate when they both have the same border/box style. Most things on usertalks are text w/o the border, so it's easy to gloss over the bordered warning templates when they are close to the IP thing. JoeSmack ^Talk 21:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but I think the question to be answered with this box questions is are they ugly, or do they make the warnings stand out from the usual background chat, etc. The IP templates are quite tidy anyway, but talkpage headers will come next in the single issue templates, and this might be the time to see how we differentiate between the two. We have the images so maybe that suffices, I dunno. Think we need lots of input on this now. To be honest to me they look good both ways, and maybe we can put some form of page break between a header template and the actual chat. Khukri ^{(talk . contribs)} 21:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I have made a template for this: {{uw}}. The template page shows the possible parameters, and I think Khukri is going to try to do a semi-automated replacement for all the templates. -- Renesis (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Appearance when used

I put some of these templates on my sandbox to see what they look like when they are actually used. The layout I used is the one recommended at Wikipedia:WikiProject user warnings#Layout Guidelines. They don't seem to number or bullet as expected. Also, the extra text that can be added doesn't stand out, and thus won't usually be seen by someone experienced glancing through the templates. Comments? -- kenb215 talk 01:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

{{uw}} breaks lists because the wikiML table syntax contains line breaks. Some possible solutions are [a] use HTML table syntax, or [b] remove or scale down the icons so a table isn't necessary (as is done with {{s/block}}). —{admin} Pathoschild 03:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)