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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mike Halterman (talk | contribs) at 18:10, 31 August 2005 (→First reports of deaths in New Orleans). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Reminder: Please Don't Feed The Trolls

(As a courtesy, editors may use {{unsigned}} to help mark unsigned comments)

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived.

see archives: 01, 02, 03, 04
Award I, Titoxd, award the RickK Anti-Vandalism Barnstar to all those who have helped maintain this article clean from vandalism and junk. 04:02, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


Global warming article link?

I posted an external link to this article, Time Magazine: Is Global Warming Fueling Katrina?, which was later removed by 24.165.233.150, with the comment, "global warming stuff doesn't belong in this article, try the article on hurricanes..." (here's the diff). I disagree, as the Time article specifically addresses this particular hurricane. I was under the impression that there was an interest in having such information included, per the earlier discussion above. I would like to avoid a dispute on this point, so I would like to know what the consensus of the community is as to whether this external link should be included. -- BDAbramson talk 03:09, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing special about this hurricane related to global warming. Material about how overactive this season has been, or on what causes hurricanes in general really should go into the main hurricane article or into the article on the season... If someone is interested in the global warming angle, they'll also be interested in all the information we provide on why this season is more active than others. If there is something special about global warming and *this* storm that I'm missing, then it should be discussed in the text, not just tossed out as an external link. Gmaxwell 03:20, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with User:BDAbramson and earlier comments that it should be here. This hurricane being a particularly devastating one and people are talking about the link in general, so no reason to not have it there. Saying it belongs on the main hurricane page is also true, but not an argument for it not being here. DreamGuy 05:06, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
Well I managed to mostly sway BD, checkout his talk page and mine. After looking into the matter more indepth I also object to the link because it appears to be random speculation by some journalist which is not tied back to any verifiable research. 24.165.233.150 06:44, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with User:BDAbramson, link the article. --Titoxd 22:25, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

[removed long article that was copyright violation copied and pasted here without permission trying to start a fight about global warming... link to it if you want, don't steal it.] DreamGuy 22:21, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

People are calling it a "natural disaster". This can't be entirely true because:

  • Warmth drives storms by evaporating water vapor, which is lighter than air.
  • Global warming is melting the polar ice caps, which raises the ocean level, and therefore the lake and river levels.
  • As Scientific American once reported, soot on the ice caps increases their melting rate.
  • Flood control has prevented sediment that would have helped keep Louisiana above water.
  • Nutria, introduced by people, are eating away the marsh grass.

Harrison MS deaths

WDSU has just reported that the Harrison County, MS EOC has just reported 50 storm-related deaths.
--Baylink 03:12, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

While I can believe that number, we should wait for more confirmation - they heavily overestimated with Charley ("dozens" reported dead in Punta Gorda, in reality less than 10 died there). CrazyC83 03:15, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind, it is now widely reported. For now, they should be listed as direct deaths unless an indirect cause is mentioned (i.e. building fire). CrazyC83 03:25, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fatality charts

Is there a better way to illustrate the chart of fatalities by state? An "inland" death chart listing (as of now) the single death in Georgia, and separated from the totals of Miss., La., Ala., and Fla. Seems to me these charts should be merged, but it wouldn't be appropriate under only coastal or inland headings. Thoughts? --Twigboy 03:17, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The inland chart will likely grow as deaths from Tennessee, Kentucky, Ohio, New York and Ontario, among other states/provinces are eventually added... after all, Katrina has only just started affecting the inland areas. The listings will eventually grow. CrazyC83 03:26, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, but my point is that the distinction between coastal/inland fatalities seems to be arbitrary. For example, Hinds County, MS appears to be more than 100 miles inland, yet it's listed as "coastal." Is it coastal just because it's in a state that has a Gulf coast? --Twigboy 03:48, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Coastal states here are MS, AL, LA and FL - the states directly affected from the coastal impact. It is easiest to keep the states together (so, even if it happens in, say, Huntsville AL, it will go in the coastal list under Alabama). Inland states(/provinces) are everything else. CrazyC83 04:01, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
There should be a table that present the total tally, coastal and inland. How about a new section call "Summary on casualities", just before the two sections? --Vsion 04:12, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Cnn reported from AP 55 people dead. Thats a good enough source to put that number in the artilce. Also we should metion it has now become one of the legendary hurricanes. Such as besty, camille, hugo, Andrew.

I just combined the sections and renamed it "Impact by region". It will also show a combined death toll. CrazyC83 04:18, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricane Andrew

  • Anyone else notice a striking similarity in the path of Andrew to Katrina's? I thought Katrina was following a strange path until I saw Andrew. Through lower Florida, across the Gulf, through Louisiana, and back up towards the Northeast. Staxringold 05:04, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The tracks are somewhat similar, but Katrina's strongest landfall was its second instead of its first.
E. Brown, Hurricane enthusiast - Squawk Box 21:57, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I have noticed also. I think Camille did the same track. 207.30.145.6 11:51, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism warning

A range of IPs has been inserting random characters in words all over the article. Someone, please report this "Sandbox vandal" to WP:VIP, since it's almost impossible to do it myself, trying to keep up with the vandal.

Kind regards, Titoxd 05:17, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I tossed a variety of IP addresses over there. Hopefully they aren't AOL ones, because if they are, blocking won't help.DreamGuy 05:25, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
Well, it sure has been a lot quieter now. Thank you very much! --Titoxd 05:29, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

relevant link?

I reverted an edit adding this link: [1]. I don't object to having it in the article, but I'm unsure if it should be there. What do you people think? --Titoxd 05:24, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No. Not relevant enough. Would be fine in an article on "New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers" if that one is ever written, but not here. Shanes 05:29, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
shrug, I added it I thought it was quite relevant. This is why:
New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers faces funding cuts in 2006
From the article: "The cuts mean major hurricane and flood protection projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now." This article addresses the future preparedness of the New Orleans to Hurricanes like Katrina. It could be added to future predictions, or a section to reaction to the disaster.

Levee break

CNN is reporting there is a two block wide breach in the 17th St Canal levee. Lake Pontchartrain is pouring into Orleans Parish. Water around Tulane University Hospital is rising one inch every minute. Won't put in article until corroborated online. --Golbez 06:38, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

CNN has just reported it again, statement from the Army Corps of Engineers on the breach is expected within the next two hours. Also reported here (second article down): [2]-Loren 07:40, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Per CNN 0302 CDT: Hospital evacuations temporarily placed on hold. Army Corps of Engineers currently in meeting discussing levee breach. -Loren 08:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
200 ft break confirmed by NOFD officials. -Loren 08:18, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

moved section on "Previous Prediction"

I moved the section on "Previous Prediction" to Predictions of hurricane risk for New Orleans. I feel this is the most suitable section to be transfered. Ok? --Vsion 07:42, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Be safe. We are praying for you.

Widespread looting?

The article says "Since Lousiana and Mississippi is an economically depressed area, widespread looting has been reported in hurricane stricken areas." I don't know if I should take this out as I haven't heard of widespread looting, only incidents, and I haven't heard of Louisiana and Missisppi being 'economically depressed.' I don't know, I may be wrong here, hence the posting. 129.110.199.227 07:44, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know anything about the level of economic depression in Louisiana, but I dropped the "since" word, as I believe looting can occur everywhere, given the "right" circumstances. But, yeah, maybe we should just drop the whole statement about economic depressed area. Especially if it's not even true.... Shanes 07:51, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and take out the economically depressed bit, and the widespread bit, and just put 'incidents of looting.' At the very worst, it means the same thing anyway, just more general. Dafrito 07:56, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, I think I beat you too it ;-). Shanes 07:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
*cries.* Dafrito 08:41, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I thought looters were shot on sight in the US. So looting is very unlikely. As for economically depressed, the average person gets $27000 per year in Louisiana. Easy to live on that for a family of, say 6 (6x$27000)! Leistung 10:07, 30 August 2005 (EST)
I don't think you and I are talking about the same US. Perhaps the United States of Mexico, but not the United States of America. Also, average income is the mean, not the median. Where income inequality is significant, like Louisiana (and the USA in general), the mean will be far higher than the median. A more typical family earns $27000 per year total. 24.34.190.187 10:39, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Folks, Mexican Wikipedians read this article too... --Titoxd 17:04, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
"Looters may be summarily shot by the police, army, or property owners. Extraordinary measures, combined with an impressive show of force, help to discourage looting and to disperse crowds that would now find a normal show of force non-threatening." Wikipedia quote from Looting
Leistung 19:40, 30 August 2005 (CET)
Key word in all that is "may". Normally, at least with police/national guard forces, that does not begin happening until things reach near riot levels in most areas. Individual property owners might shoot on sight, but in this case, most are not around their property and any potential looters would shy away from an obvious armed pressence for 'safer' targets. One more thing, despite the view of our nation presented by Hollywood, most Americans do not reach for a gun first. While there may be shootings reported, it will not be widespread unless things get much much worse. Donovan Ravenhull 19:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think, as the section says, "widespread looting" is very serious, and these could be "summarily shot by the police, army, or property owners." I also understand that nearly all Americans have their automatic gun, as it is part of the Constitution.
Leistung 08:07, 31 August 2005 (CET)
The 2nd Amendment gives the states the right to form militias. Please, stop with the trollish anti-American comments. If I recall correctly, you were the one who said that this is just another example of Americans "crying wolf". --Titoxd 06:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Tito, your threats are noted. I am not a troll. My opinions are just diametrically opposed to yours personally. I am entitled to my opinion, as are you. As for being anti-American, I have many American friends. I often stick up for America. Doesn't mean to say I have to crawl on my belly before you, as I am so frightened that you will call me names.
Leistung 09:56, 31 August 2005 (CET)
There were no threats to note, and no one is asking you to crawl on your belly, but you are way out of line on your comments. Those were undeniably trollish statements. This talk page is not some place for people to argue about alleged faults of Americans, it's about making an encyclopedia article. Please take these comments to a site that they would be more appropriate on. DreamGuy 08:46, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
Again, if someone says something you disagree with this is considered by you "trollish". Note that I did not initiate bringing America into the conversation in this Section. I referred to looters in general. It seems that some Americans are over sensitive. The are plenty of anti European remarks around, and this seems OK. It is by me anyway. As for the encyclopedia article, this is a discussion page, not the article itself. I thought that was where we were supposed to discuss things. leistung 12:36, August 31, 2005 (CET)
  • Without regard to how one would characterize these comments, they are clearly made from ignorance and prejudice and need not be discussed here. Factual and verifiable information is our concern. Published eyewitness accounts of looting are, for example, more pertinent than estimates of the likelihood of looting based on sloppy analysis of erroneous data. Dystopos 17:01, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Katrina in S. Illinois and the Purchase?

This section is still on the page: "Katrina may come close to the Ohio River Valley, even scraping southern Illinois, causing storms to rise from the remnants that are left behind." The forecast track doesn't have it coming anywhere near there, instead crossing the Kentucky line around Hopkinsville and heading into Indiana or Ohio. It hasn't been forecast to go through the Purchase or Illinois to my knowledge (if it does, good, we need the rain) - flood watches don't even cover any county north or west of Graves.

Also, is it true that TVA is opening spillways? I heard (as of Sunday) the rivers were low enough to impede barge traffic. 24.34.190.187 10:47, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind that the storm is not a single point or line following a projected track. Check out this current radar, Southern Illinois, as well as Indiana and Ohio are feeling the effects of Katrina. --Holderca1 19:15, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I checked local weather (I'm from the Purchase but living out of state) and saw the rainfall totals. Not much except around Fort Massac, but they recorded bits of rain associated with the storm even in Missouri. We didn't get much at all; now I'm more worried about river flooding and the effects on the economy. 24.34.190.187 03:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Intro inconsistency

From the intro, last para:

.... and 80% of New Orleans is said to be under water. Currently 750,000 people are without power in the New Orleans area, and it may be several weeks before power is restored. The parts of the city with the worst flooding were in the east, where the storm was most severe. Roughly 40% of the city is under water...

I'm thinking it's one or the other, personally... J.K. 10:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I removed the 40% and put the 25 foot deep with the eighty percent. That's coming from an interview with the New Orleans mayor, though, for full disclosure, he said "The city of New Orleans is in a state of devastation. We probably have 80 percent of our city underwater. With some sections of our city, the water is as deep as 20 feet." So I guess we should just quote that directly, since he said probably, too. Dafrito 11:10, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I like the idea of the quote, but can you find a cite? J.K. 11:38, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
CNN cites it here, I believe. [3] Fifth paragraph or so. Dafrito 11:48, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Reuters cites the quote here, too, [4] Dafrito 11:51, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, here's the video of the interview. [5] Dafrito 11:55, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

New Orleans damage report

Should we summarize all that into one paragraph or a series of paragraphs, or is it our intention to keep the reports mostly chronological? Dafrito 13:11, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think that it makes sense to refactor all of the information into a series of paragraphs, but I think that would be hard to do at this time. I would find it hard to know what to keep, especially with all of the rapid changes that are occurring. It's probably a better idea to wait until the flow of information slows down before massaging it into a more encyclopedic form. That being said, be bold. --timc | Talk 14:44, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Higher death tolls

AP reports up to 80 deaths in harrison county alone. So I changed the number to 54-80 people killed in the deaths chart. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050830/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina_3;_ylt=An2t.4FWAg4ftOwvj9yMQYsbLisB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl Leave it for now.

I just updated all the lists to show that (64-90 direct deaths total). If anything says "up to", it is definitely best to show it the way you did, as a range. CrazyC83 15:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The AP report said that it is the MS governor who gave this figure 50-80. I've updated the Mississippi section on this. When changing the fatalities chart, please update the relevant region section also, so that other can verify what's the source and time-stamp, and know how to update it when things changes. thks. --Vsion 21:19, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Lousiana closed to incoming traffic

WDSU TV has reported that Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco has ordered the police to block all incoming roadways into Lousiana. Zzxcnet 15:48, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean into Louisiana from Southern Mississippi? I doubt they'd be blocking roadways across the entire state (from Texas into Shreveport, for example). Mike H (Talking is hot) 20:36, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
"O’Brien-Molina, the Red Cross spokeswoman, said state officials shut off interstate highways re-entering Louisiana to keep people from returning to flooded areas. I-10 is completely closed down,” she said. “No one can go back in..." Times-Picayune online Rmhermen 05:53, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Breaking News (by source)

Place unsorted developments here seen/heard on local news streams, local radio and other sources.


Clarion-Ledger

Beauvoir (Biloxi, Mississippi), final retirement home of Confederate President Jefferson Davis, a major Biloxi historic attraction, was destroyed by Hurricane Katrina. The site also contains the Jefferson Davis Presidential Library. No word on damage to the library or other historic buildings on the site.

WDSU

National guard refugees are bringing more people into the Superdome.
Looting is out of control. Grocery, retail stores being looted in flooded areas.
At least 200 people rescued from boats, rooftops.
People remaining in city that can get out are urged by the mayor to leave via the Crescent City Connection, the only remaining outbound route.
-- Zzxcnet 15:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Patients are being evacuated via helicopter at Tulane Medical Center.
The Superdome is surrounded by two feet of water.
-- Zzxcnet 16:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Highway 90 has been "destroyed", and is "no longer a highway" - in the words of a WDSU anchor.
The Hardrock Casino has "50% damage".
The fire chief in Gulfport estimates that 75% of the buildings have major roof damage.
-- Zzxcnet 16:20, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You mean Highway 90? Mike H (Talking is hot) 20:34, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
yes. I fixed it. Zzxcnet 21:44, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
"Gov. Kathleen Blanco said Tuesday afternoon that people now huddled in the Superdome and other rescue centers need to be evacuated." [6] (and see CNN summary below). --timc | Talk 21:50, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

CNN

Also CNN has shown video of the alabama coastline where small to big yatchs and even small container ships have washed ashore and some very far inland.
CNN reports: "Rising waters force evacuation of tens of thousands who sought refuge in New Orleans rescue centers, state governor says. More soon." --timc | Talk 21:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

WWL-TV

Congress is working on passing an emergency spending bill for rebuilding and recovery efforts in the affected areas.
Officials may attempt to use boxcars filled with dirt/sand to block the flooding on the 17th street canal.. as they are afraid the sandbags would be washed away. Zzxcnet 21:53, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Worst hurricane since Camille?

There have been reports that this strm may have killed hundrends and it is quite possibile due to the fact many people were in there homes during the 25-30 foot storm surge. This article explains. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050830/ts_nm/weather_katrina_deaths_dc_1;_ylt=AtZFfubsrlut5mf181oj4eUbLisB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

I think it's getting to the point of calling this the worst natural disaster in U.S. history, considering the new reports rolling in. The optimism from yesterday has quickly vanished. --tomf688<TALK> 19:31, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
The Galveston Hurricane of 1900 killed about 8,000 people and destroyed the city's long-term prospects; Houston is famous today because of Galveston's loss. I put a link to this near the bottom of the article on Katrina, but a chap called Golbez took it out, perhaps thinking it was inappropriate. I don't agree with that, but I'm not going to start a petty war with someone who could block me. -Ashley Pomeroy 22:07, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of death toll, Galveston's storm is almost certain to stand as the deadliest in U.S. History. Defining "worst" is somewhat subjective, although I do understand your POV. While Katrina couldn't hope to match the Galveston Hurricane's death toll, that's pretty much a given, considering we can now see a storm coming and tell people to evacuate the area. We can't begin to calculate the potential devestation New Orleans has endured because of Katrina. We may be witnessing the destruction of a major city, similar to Galveston's destruction, seeing as to how the city will be underwater for a good month at least. It's far too early to tell one way or another, but considering we're only discussing New Orleans in this small conversation, not even considering the impact to Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, and to the economy, I'd say Katrina certainly has the potential - given perspective - to be the most devestating natural disaster in U.S. History. - jcomp489
And I'm not going to dignify such martyrdom with a response. Too bad, too, we could have come to an agreement. --Golbez 22:09, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
There is too much of this going on. Self styled policemen deleting whatever they don't like. The article about the Galveston Hurricane of 1900 is highly releveant, as it shows the effects of a truly major event in compasion, and brings Katrina into perspective.
Leistung 09:35, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
I actually agree to an extent, in that at an article addressing past powerful Hurricanes that have struck the U.S. could be relevant for perspective. I think this is something that should be done down the line, however, and could actually make a strong case for showing how devestating Katrina already is. Take this excerpt from the Galveston Hurricane of 1900 article-
"By September 12, the first post-storm mail was received at Galveston. The next day, basic water service was restored, and Western Union began providing minimal telegraph service. Within three weeks, cotton was again being shipped out of the port."
Conversely, New Orleans isn't going to be having any basic services for water, food, sewage, postage, etc. for four weeks, much less within four or five days. jcomp489

French Quarter

Does anyone know what kind of damage has the French Quarter sustained? It seems to be missing from the article. --129.219.6.86 19:55, 30 August 2005 (UTC) (User:Titoxd, who is too lazy to sign in). Validating my edit. --Titoxd 21:11, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is being reported that it has started to flood, even though it was dry last night. Zzxcnet 19:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed; WDSU(/WAPT) showed tape last night from a corner approximately 3 blocks from their studios with dry streets.
--71.100.10.116 20:33, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone have a page to which we can refer to add that information to the article? --Titoxd 21:11, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I have video archives of WDSU and WWL-TV that I've saved from the live streams since before the storm hit. I can get segments of this to use as source material if neccessary. Zzxcnet 21:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricane Katrina category

Would a Category be useful here? Not sure if such would be useful long term, but in the short term I would think it would be very useful to have a single way to link articles for the variuos effected areas, and other related articles. But I wanted to gage opinion before I just went and created just a thing. TexasAndroid 21:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Separate page for New Orleans?

There is now a need for a separate article on Effect of Hurricane Katrina on New Orleans as the section is expanding fast; leave a summary on this page instead. I need to rush to another place, can someone help to do it? thks. --Vsion 22:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a seperate article would be needed for this, however I lack the experience to do this myself, on a page as important as this one. The fate of the city lies in fixing the breeched levees, and efforts to fix it are underway now. I suppose quite a lot of information about this will come in in the next few hours/night, and the situation at the superdome also will generate text. Also it will relieve the main page from the specific New Orleans situation. bsod 22:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ultimately I think we will need lots of separate pages. Some of them include:

On Florida? I don't know about that; it's not big enough for that. There will need to be a template to handle all of this. Either way, I took care of the New Orleans article joturner 23:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think this isn't necessarily a good idea. This kind of content will eventually reappear at this page, because of the prominence of the story and editors' desire to add new information. I'd like if the content were returned. --Titoxd 23:52, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry, from the experience of Indian Ocean Tsunami, and 7 July London Bombing; this will work out. It's the level of details. The summary and the most important information will remain here, in fact, this paragraph will be similar to the lead section in the New Orleans page. Other local details will be on the New Orleans page itself. --Vsion 00:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I see that it is working out. Keep up the good work! --Titoxd 00:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Parts of this talk page relating to New Orleans should probably be moved to the New Orleans effects page as well, to minimize bloat here. This would allow for more relavant information on the talk pages. Zzxcnet 01:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Too Many Images

As of me writing this, there are nine images in the Preparations and Storm History sections alone. That is obviously too many? Which should we get rid of? Edit: I think the one under transportation and military should be first to go. The one with the track is unnecessary since the wind swath image implies the track already. joturner 22:52, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Standards

Currently, it makes a lot of sense to edit this page with short or even single-sentence, "journalism"-style paragraphs, which indeed many people are doing. Once most of the initial reportage and shock gives way, however, this article will need to be redone from an encyclopedic standpoint. It will be a large task, which perhaps will require some coordination by admins or others. --Jacqui M Schedler 23:15, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Writing guidelines

Some suggestions:

  • Use the inverted pyramid style: Put the most important information up top. This applies to articles, sections and sub-sections
  • For each section, the first paragraph should summarize the current status, especially on the casualties figure and dangerous floods condition.
  • For each region, put information on casualties first, followed by floods condition, then on specific structural damages.
  • For casualties, put information on confirmed deaths first, before the speculated/projected deaths. Please provide sources on all information.
  • If a section gets too large, it's time to create a new article for it. Leave the lead/summary paragraph on this page.

Feel free to append/modify the above inline --Vsion 00:03, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Landfall question

Does crossing one of the Great Lakes and hitting land on the other side count as a landfall? CrazyC83 00:26, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Public Health

Little has been said yet of what will be one of the greatest public health emergencies in decades. No clean water, no working sewers, no electricity, no telephones, no cell phone services, closed-down hospitals, filthy dirty septic/toxic floodwater contaminating everything everywhere, etc. I am speaking of old horrors like typhoid, cholera, and other diarrheal diseases, not to mention skin infections, untreated injuries, etc. It's a horror story in the making. Perhaps another article: Public Health Effects of Hurricane Katrina.

I just heard Tulane University Hospital lost its backup generator. They are in the dark. There are still lots of sick people there. This is a genuine public health catastrophe. --FourthAve 01:13, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals for cleaning up the Article

thought i'd go out on a limb here and make a pitch, this article has a LOT of info, so much so that it really takes away from the article itself. I'm putting forth that one page be devoted to the actual meteorological history of Katrina, including records and such, with a round up of all the damages and effects. The second page, of which the effects on New Orleans was a good precursor - could be named Hurricane Katirna Aftermath. Just a thought... any other ideas, suggestions? Boort 00:50, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I created an article to summarize the reports of damage to public facilities and infrastructure. There is still so much that isn't reported yet. --Twigboy 03:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Prison riot

CNN and WWL are reporting that inmates at Orleans Parish Prison are rioting and have taken hostages, including the wife and children of a deputy, who took them there for safety.--YoungFreud 00:51, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmed by ABC News, see [8]. A news conference will be held at 9PM EST (right about now), according to ABC News. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 01:00, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't see this press conference anywhere... did anyone see it? (and hopefully someone has a recording/transcript for reference) Zzxcnet 02:38, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

At a 9:30CDT (10:30EDT) news conference, they were unable to confirm reports of a prison riot. If this is added to the main article or the New Orleans article, it should be said that this is unconfirmed. Zzxcnet 02:50, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Major flooding expected in New Orleans

Pump 6 (at the 17th St. Canal Levee) has now failed, as confirmed by Major C Ray Nagin on WWL-TV. This pump had been partially offsetting the levee breach. Since the sandbagging effort has failed, major flooding is expected. I think this deserves a mention on the main article page. I've already added it to the New Orleans effects page. This announcement came shortly after 8:00pm CDT. Zzxcnet 01:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead. Be bold. --Titoxd 01:35, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yes go ahead, it's worthy. Good thing about having a separate article on New Orleans is that, even if others remove the content in this page for trimming, they don't have to worry about losing that information, as it's still preserved in the "children" pages. Keep updating what's heard from TV. --Vsion 01:51, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've added it. The effort at blocking the flooding has been all but abandoned, as the breach is expected to worsen in the overnight hours, putting the entire city at the Lake Pontchartrain's water level. With no pumping capacity, the water will flow into the city without limit. Zzxcnet 02:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism User:Tewdrig

thanks Tixod for cleaning up this mess. Reported vandalism.Kyle Andrew Brown 01:38, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Water level above sea level?

One thing I don't understand. How can the water level goes up a few feets above sea level? Any clue? --Vsion 01:42, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, not being a NOAA oceanographer my way of saying it is that in New Orleans they are at sea level. The water level in the Gulf/Mississippi River rises above the normal surface level, there probably a scientific word for that, like when they say mean tide is at such and such time. The water then has to go somewhere and over the land it would be "above sea level."Kyle Andrew Brown 01:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The water coming down the missisippi river from "north" is coming from higher ground and is intrinsiclly at "above sea level." The land AROUND New Orleans is above sea level. there are some miles of land before you get to the sea. Rick Boatright 02:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The normal level for Lake Pontchartrain is one foot above sea level. Right now the gauges say it's four feet, due to the rain and flooding from Katrina. It's dropping fairly rapidy, though.--Kbk 05:02, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bush's reaction

Do we have anything about this? Cutting vacation time too late, comparison to Bush's reaction to tsunami, 9/11, comparison to Bush 41's reaction to SF quake of 1989, distraction to Iraq War. Is any of this relevant?

That's a POV violation, even though I would agree with you (too much pressure on poor Haley Barbour and Kathleen Blanco). CrazyC83 02:24, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need whatsoever to have his response unless it is extremely notable - and it ain't. --Golbez 02:33, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
I agree, he probably took too much time to react, like Bush Sr. took when Andrew hit Florida. However, those are opinions, therefore Points of View, therefore POV, therefore unsuitable for the article. --Titoxd 02:34, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
But you could easily spin it in terms of news or commentary reaction ("Several (credible sources / notable weblogs) have expressed upset at the perceived slow reaction of President Bush to etc"). A couple here ("CNN's Cafferty Takes Cheap Shot at Bush's “Vacation" After Hurricane") and here ("2006 Budget slashes funding for the US Army Corps of Engineers, NO Districts, by $71.2 million dollars") to get started, and just search Google news for 'bush' and 'orleans'. Emphasise the cut in National Guard funding in the context of the fact that Popular Mechanics predicted this a few years ago. [9] How could Bush ignore Popular Mechanics? -Ashley Pomeroy 05:13, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Martial law - incorrect term?

According to this report on NOLA.com, the Louisiana state Attorney General's office has said that no such term as "martial law" exists in Louisiana; from the text of the article it would seem that "state of emergency" would be more accurate. I haven't done any editing on this because I have no specialist knowledge, and really don't know anything more than what the aforementioned NOLA.com piece says. Loganberry (Talk) 02:22, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • All the major news outlets have called it martial law, and since the military moved in to provide security, it seems like the correct term. I'd leave it as is. --Titoxd 02:24, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • And now an anon has reverted it. He quoted MSNBC, which is ironic, because I heard Brian Williams saying that parts of Lousiana were under martial law. Any official (or newer) information? --Titoxd 02:52, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Compromise; in the first instance refer to it as "a state of emergency ("martial law")" and then refer to it as martial law thereafter. "State of emergency" is slightly confusing outside the US, because it's a specific condition, whereas martial law is pretty much understood worldwide. -Ashley Pomeroy 05:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Evacuation Methods

Government officials are already considering taking these stranded people out of New Orleans/Hell's Half Acre. I've heard some pretty wild ideas about how to remove these people from this hell hole. One was to use cruise ships to take them to other ports on the Gulf coast (Galveston, Pensacola, Tampa, etc.) I guess we should use any means possible but what does everyone else think?

E. Brown, Hurricane enthusiast - Squawk Box 03:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Other bad news

Fox News (yeah, I know) is reporting that two men opened fire on the first precinct NOPD stationhouse with automatic weapons. Police returned fire, and the two men fled to the French Quarter, but could not give chase. And Reuters is reporting sharks in the water.--YoungFreud 04:13, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Because Fox News never tells the truth. If you're going to disclaim it with "yeah, I know", why bother citing them at all? --Golbez 04:33, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
Shark, not sharks --Scapegoat pariah 05:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing on Google news about 'shots' or 'gunfire' + 'orleans' or 'police station' + 'orleans', and it raises the question as to how the miscreants "fled to the French Quarter" - boats? A police officer was apparently wounded in a shooting incident, however (search for "gunfire"). [10] -Ashley Pomeroy 05:19, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
And judging by subsequent news, yes, the looters are moving about in boats. Armed with rifles looted from a Wal-Mart. They've tried to break into a Children's Hospital, for heaven's sake, smashing up emergency vehicles in the process. I wouldn't shed a tear if someone shot them, and let their bodies sink into the swamp. -Ashley Pomeroy 17:09, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The article, in the intro table, gives the date of conclusion for the storm's duration as Aug. 30. But now it's Aug. 31 and I believe the storm is still extant as a tropical system, a tropical depression now. Doesn't that count, or does it not count anymore once it drops below trop. storm status? Everyking 05:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Subculture section

This "Katrina's effect on the internet subculture" section seems astoundingly, stupidly trivial in this context.

I mistakenly reverted to that version, but I agree. Revert on sight as vandalism. --Titoxd 05:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
While you guys took care of it here, I followed the editor's other contributions... he's basically making promotional links for sites he worked on (so what else is new, seems to be the major fad lately), so spamming rather than outright vandalism. DreamGuy 05:59, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
What on Earth is wrong with these people? First the bloggers, then this... tsk tsk. --Titoxd 06:01, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

this section came back. but now it is gone. goodbye! Drseudo | Talk! 06:06, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Who reinserted it? I've been trying to go through the diffs, and I can't seem to find the culprit. This should now be {{test4}}-level vandalism. --Titoxd 06:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think what happened was it was inserted one place, removed, it was put another place, you accidentally put it back in the original place (making two copies), then it was removed in one but not the other.... DreamGuy 06:12, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Dang... now I've got to {{test4}} myself. Oy veh. --Titoxd 06:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Twin Spans

I was watching the news feed last night (29th night-30th morning) and they were reporting that the twin spans had been "destroyed". They didn't have pictures, but they kept repeating that word. Anyone have more info? --Gryn 05:52, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

All you need to know is: use the Crescent City Connection to evacuate New Orleans.

CNN's website has video of the damage to the spans over Lake Ponchartrain. Go to pretty much any article there right now and there will be links to the myriad video clips. Mike H (Talking is hot) 06:36, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

casualty chart is for confirmed death only

The casualty chart is for confirmed death only. Please do not include prediction or speculated figure. No doubt, this will make it way off the final figure, but it's the only way to update the chart consistently and to keep the figure verifiable. --Vsion 07:00, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Final figure? Won't be seeing one for a couple months...maybe not until a year 207.30.145.6 11:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Then we are just going to wait for those months. Awolf002 13:53, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If there is a confirmed and a speculated number (not a rough guess, like more than Camille) by a government agency, I think it should be shown as a range, with the lower number being the confirmed toll and the higher number being the speculated toll. CrazyC83 14:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Official casualty projection/speculation can still be documented in the text. But because different people will make differing estimation, there will be many different number. Often in diaster, these speculations tend to over-estimate the final death toll. It's therefore difficult to update the chart with these figures. Instead, could we put a footnote at the bottom of the chart to indicate that those numbers refer to confirmed deaths only, and that the projected death may be much higher? --Vsion 17:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The "rest of the world" is perplexed

Irrelevant rant about America removed.
Evercat, you cannot remove everything you disagree with. That is called vandalism. Refer to the article on [[Internet Trolls]. This explains that the worst trolls are those that accuse others of being Trolls, in order to defeat their argument. I also find it hard to believe what you write about yourself on your user page, ie, opposing fanaticism, left liberal, etc. leistung 14:00, 31 August 2005 (CET)

Actually, I can. Talk pages are for discussion of how the article can be made better. Sure, there's often lots of talk that isn't really about that, but if it becomes divisive and annoying it can simply be removed. I've had it done to me a few times. Evercat 12:10, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Evercat, I do not think you and others want to make the article better. You only want to win any technological battle, and put the points which suit you and others who think like you. You just remove what you disagree with, as you say it is "UnAmerican". You will always win, any way you can, and that is what is important to you. I don't think that these actions would be popular in Edinburgh. leistung 14:13, 31 August 2005 (CET)
So, what does any of this have to do with improving the Hurricane Katrina article? android79 12:32, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
not much althoug htere is the question of why my comment was removed.Geni 12:56, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, I just removed the entire section. Evercat 12:57, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I did as well, and I apologize for that, but this section can only ever be flamebait. It has no relevance to improving the article, and as such, has no place here. Normally I'd just leave well enough alone, but this high-profile article is bound to attract many new users, and such trolling will only distract people from actually working on the article. android79 13:01, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
It is pointless for me or my kind to write anything in wiki, as someone like you, a self appointed wiki policeman will immediately delete it, as you have labelled me a troll. As wiki states, people who label others as trolls are the worst kind of troll. See internet troll Leistung 14:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You can write what you want; it's just that people don't like inflammatory comments that have nothing to do with improving the article. ~~ N (t/c) 14:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Lets Take a Deep Breath

It is obvious, at this time, that leistung has some very strong opinions about this event, and we cannot do anything to change that. It is time for all of us, leistung included, to take a deep breath and step away from the virtual fist fights that seem to be developing over this.

leistung, please remember that while this is an internationally contributed Wiki, many of the contributers are American and as such, events in our own back yard (literally to me, I'm on the edge of the storm zone) tend to get a lot of attention. In many ways, this means that articles about ongoing events will tend to turn into news sources as everyone tries to provide information to the rest. In time, this article will be pared down, as things settle down, but it will get a lot of attention for many months to come.

My fellow Americans, let us remember that some people outside of America will be puzzled by our attention to events such as this. Hell, I remember after Fredrick in '79, my mother in Chicago asked me how we did 'in that storm'. Just as we have trouble comprehending something like monsoon flooding in the subcontinent area, their non-experience with the power of a Hurricane means that they do not have a frame of reference to the forces it generates.

So I ask this, leistung, please step back and understand why we are putting so much energy into this. Nobody is forcing you to read this, but understand while we do. To everyone else, try not to over-react to his and others rants. Don't delete or rant back, but simply nod and carry on. Donovan Ravenhull 13:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Donovan, you write something reasonable, and then spoil it all by saying that I am ranting. I can well understand that this is a major event, but major events of the same size in other countries do not get this coverage. I am annoyed that things are centering on New Orleans, which seemed to escape, but not on the (smaller) places where the storm hit. I really feel sorry for these small townsfolk. Incidentally, the term Hurricane seems to be specific only to the USA. Other places have big storms too. Leistung 15:26, 31 August 2005 (CET)
The word "hurricane" comes from the Taino culture of pre-Columbian Caribbean islands. It is a synonym for "typhoon" which similarly comes from a regional word. In both the Pacific and Atlantic, the generic term "tropical storm" applies for lower-strength weather systems. --Dhartung | Talk 16:57, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm gonna break my own recomendation here. When a post like this is made, it comes across as a rant rather than a resoned argument.
America the land of the dead and the stupids! Worse than the Balkan or the 3rd world. People drowning by the hundred and shooting eatch other in the streets, even though they have been told many days ago to flee because the damn hurrican is coming head on at 160mph. Looting, racial riots, army in the streets, total disarray, all so ridiculous! UBL must be laughing off his arse in his cave, the yankee terrorize themselves even if no turban is in sight. So despicable.
When terms like 'stupid' and such are made, you have defeated yourself and your arguments.
Donovan Ravenhull 13:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Donovan, this is most unfair. I didn't say that. More ammunition for those trying to label me as a troll. Leistung 15:51, 31 August 2005 (CET)
To be fair, I don't think he wrote that bit. That was some anon. [11] Evercat 13:51, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Then I heartly appologize to Leistung for putting words in his mouth that he did to type. Donovan Ravenhull 13:59, 31 August 2005
No Probs. Leistung 14:13, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As I have just said on my User talk page:
I made an assumption, and I'm sure you know the old saying about that. (I certainly made an ass out of myself in that case.) What I saw was you saying that 'you should not delete what you don't aggree with' and given the difference of opinion you have been involved with, I assumed you had basicly lost your temper. I once again hope that you accept my appology.
I just wanted to make appology public in front of those I made the mistake in front of. Donovan Ravenhull 14:28, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Donovan, you seem like a nice guy. You are my sort of person. No need to apologise at all. By the way, I never lose my cool. Leistung 14:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The reason there's so much coverage here is that Wikipedians, like internet users in general, are disproportionatelly comprised of Americans. People edit what they want to. If there was a major event in your back yard, wherever that is, you'd be more likely to write about it than one that was further away. And you have an odd definition of "escape". Evercat 13:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
over on the wikiproject fopr dealing with systemic bias we long ago decided that the best aproach was to add to articles of events that had no recived enough coverage rather than complain that others were reciveing too much.Geni 17:31, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Q:When was evacuation ordered?

Section 2.1 ("Preparations and expectations before landfall/New Orleans") mentions that the Mayor of New Orleans ordered the city's first mandatory evacuation. When was this done? Could the date (and preferably the time) be added to the article? I was very interested in how long before the storm citizens had official warning of it, and this information would be helpful. Thanks! -- Creidieki 12:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The "mandatory" evacuation (in reality, short of a declaration of martial law, authorities could not force people to leave) was ordered by Mayor Nagin in a news conference that he gave about 10am Sunday [12]. This is the NOAA report of about the same time [13]; Katrina went Cat4 early in the morning and Cat5 by 7am. It was known Saturday that the storm would hit roughly around Louisiana, but it wasn't until Sunday that the strength was known. --Dhartung | Talk 16:38, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It was a brave decision to order mandatory evacuation, and this single decision has saved tens (if not hundreds) thousands of lives. Credits to the Mayor and the Storm Trackers (whoever they are)! --Vsion 17:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Orleans Parish, City of New Orleans

I removed the "New" from "New Orleans" in the table of deaths per county/parish for consistency. Seeing "New Orleans" in a table that specified East Baton Rouge (the parish containing the city of Baton Rouge) struck me as jarring, the other states were already broken down solely by county, and the link was already pointing to the Orleans Parish article. David Iwancio 2005-08-31T14:23Z

This is not a blog

If you aren't here to help an encyclopedia, read, don't write. This is not a blog. WAS 4.250 15:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

About Wikipedia

"Remember what we are doing here. We are building a free encyclopedia for every single person on the planet. We are trying to do it in an atmosphere of fun, love, and respect for others. We try to be kind to others, thoughtful in our actions, and professional in our approach to our responsibilities." Jimbo Wales 16:49, 26 August 2005 (UTC) [14] WAS 4.250 15:12, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

CNN news agency says America is like the 3rd world!

Whoever edited away may comment: "America the land of the dead and the stupids! Worse than the Balkan or the 3rd world. blah-blah"

please note that CNN website startpage says very exactly:

"It's like being in a Third World country" at this link: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.people/index.html

The associated image shows an afro-american woman crying next to a corpse in wrapped in white linen, obviously alluding to Black Africa impression.

If CNN says the same as me, how can I be a troll?

Face the truth, America made a very poor impression of itself by Katharina management. All the cold war rhetoric "we don't need civil defence, we have enough nukes to deter enemy" now fired back. Mother nature cannot be stopped with nukes, and USA was unprepared to disaster avoidance and remedy. All the fed, state, posse, county and village "authorities" are now blocking each other over power feud and thus rescue is in disarray.

Anybody who has grown up behind the iron curtain is utterly suprised how can a country be so ineffective, so lacking in coherent response. Shouldn't FEMA hand control everything down to the smallest sewing needle that fell in the water to make sure rescue progresses the fastest and damn the constitution until October? America is mega-rich in resources, it should cope with minimal loss of life. But all the liberty ideas now just lead to animosity and inefficiency. Many die because nobody obeys. You need to learn fast, because the chinese commie may attack you in 25 years and you will fall if disorganized, just like the frenchies did in 1940! Hear, hear!

Warning to everybody else: Do not feed this troll. Attempting to reason with insanity is insane. ~~ N (t/c) 14:45, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
He is very rude in such a sorrow time. But the civil defence issue (or the lack thereof) is valid. The troubling aspects of US "gun touting loneman" culture are undeniable (at least to foreign observers) and the idea of mainland China coming to you in a few more decades (it's more like 50 years) is not as tomclancy as it used to be some 6 years ago. What that liberal zombie network CNN says about Karina and thridworldliness shall not suppress Fox's faithful reporting. Offer your prayers for those in peril. God bless America! +
Nicktpar, this just shows that you are a troll. See internet troll Part of this is indeed Encyclopedic Material as the response of the authorities is very important. I have no doubt you think they are great, and you may be one of them. Whether you think anyone who points this out is a troll, or you delete articles you don't like is up to you. There will always be people like you who support the authorities right or wrong, in order to get ahead themselves. Leistung 15:07, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There are guidelines for article talk pages: Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#What may talk pages be used for?. In particular, Talk pages are not for general chatter; please keep discussions on talk pages on the topic of how to improve the associated article and Talk pages are also not strictly a forum to argue different points of view about controversial issues. There is no encyclopedic merit to the above rant or the responses to it, and there's no reason for it to be discussed here. android79 15:42, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Android, so you say. I think that the reponse of the authorities is highly relevant. But you want to suppress this. Well done! I am assuming that if I or anyone adds anything about this in the main article, you will cry "rant" and "troll" yet again, and immediately delete it, as you usually do. I do not notice you suggesting anything for the article. Only being negative. All you are doing is laying down your version of the law. Leistung 16:11, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I have yet to revert anything in the actual article that wasn't simple vandalism. Go ahead and add verifiably-sourced, NPOV edits regarding the response to the emergency by the authorities. Material on this is most certainly relevant, but there is no meaningful material in the above rant. It is merely an attempt to provoke a negative response. I haven't suggested anything for the article because I'm just now catching up on news coverage of the hurricane. android79 16:28, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Strategic Petroleum Reserve along Gulf

Can someone update the status preferably with links ? It would be nice to have confirmation they survived Katrina.

Don't feed the trolls

I'm not sure what's going on with the "Troll" line near the top of the talk page. It's good advice, especially with a major event like this generating a lot of comments and potentially malicious visitors, so I'm putting it back for now, unless a concensus somehow decides it's not good to remind people of that (I don't see how it would be bad!). AySz88^-^ 16:27, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Sure. I removed it as the name suggests "troll" is a highly insulting name, meaning something like "scum" or "filth". See article Internet trolls. I personally have been referred to as a "troll" by my enemies on this discussion. Usually if you say something against the authorities, someone will immediately protect them and label the "offender" a "troll". Obviously you are trying to protect the community against me by reinstating the message. Why not say "Don't feed the Commies" too. Leistung 16:53, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Who has called you a troll? android79 16:56, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
I was called it by a few people. The name "troll" just annoys the hell out of people, and detacts from sensible discussion. A warning like "Don't feed the trolls" just annoys people who are not "trolls" and the actual "trolls" will be encouraged more. It just means that more effort is displaced from building a good article. It also encourages those who want to crush a good argument. If you call some a "troll", then they don't exist, and you can delete all of their work. Leistung 17:12, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Who, exactly? android79 17:13, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
Dream Guy is the main one. There are others, but I can't be bothered looking them up. Leistung 17:26, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I meant on this talk page. Nevermind, then. android79 17:28, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Response

Working largely from one NYT article, I cobbled together the framework of a Response section, which I expect will quickly expand. I'm looking to articles like 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake for inspiration, here. I'm not expecting this article to perfectly rival that one, but the US impact is going to be considerable and I wouldn't be surprised if this article also spawns sub-articles. --Dhartung | Talk 09:17, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Restored above which was accidentally deleted amid the kerfuffle. --Dhartung | Talk 16:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How high can the casulties go?

I have friend right outside LA and said "it could like those hurricanes in the early 1900's??" It is very sad situation.

From Hurricane Katrina

Posted by 66.170.216.73 10:10, 31 August 2005 at article with misformatted name, which I have redirected here. - choster 16:59, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am searchin for my brother John Musser. He stayed in Slidell, La during the hurricane. If you have info please email me at marciamwest@hotmail.com. Thanks for any info about Lakewood subdivison or St. Margaret Mary School, too. My friend here in Houston wants info about Country Club in Covington, LA.

Angels don't play this HAARP!

Does anyone know for sure if the SDI's HAARP giant plasma emitter grid was running during the Katie crisis? Some (many) people seriously think it can modify weather large-scale so as to control global geopolitics. And Katrina did change course suddenly by a full 90degrees in the middle of the mexican gulf.

A conspiracy theory section will be inevitable for the article sooner or later. Local religious commentators on small CATVs already claim it was done by YHWH to punish ungodly people (proof: all the casinos east of Vegas were so perfectly destroyed, remember that gambling is an utmost crime against God, who does not play the dice)! Considering how widespread religous conservatism is in USA, such ideas will surface in the States for sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.70.32.136 (talk • contribs) 16:59, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

All of the casinos east of Las Vegas were destroyed? The casinos in Tunica MS, Baton Rouge, Cherokee NC, Atlantic City NJ, and various other locales in the east might disagree with you. But we didn't really expect logical thought in this section, did we. --Golbez 17:23, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
O no! Not the Casinos! Please let them be safe! Leistung 17:31, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point, but I think the anonymous poster above you was speaking sarcastically about "all" of the casinos east of Vegas being "destroyed." jcomp489

Crying Wolf 2

OK. I was a bit premature. Katrina in New Orleans is more serious than I first thought, due mainly to the situation with the levees. Sometimes the aftermath is worse than the main event... Is the levee break down to Act or God, Incompetence, Bad Design or just plain Bad Luck? Anyway I hope all is uphill from here on. Leistung 17:21, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the kind words. --Golbez 17:23, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
I think the levee break will fall under the catagory of Act of God. The simple fact is that they were not (and possibly cannot be) built to handle stresses of this magnatude. For all our techonological advancement, Mother Nature can be a real bitch when she puts her mind to it. Donovan Ravenhull 17:31, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I'm not an engineer however, and it's just early speculation, but if their's any human error that could be pointed out it would have to be settling in New Orleans in the first place. And that, to me, would seem a bit extreme jcomp489
As Steve Gregory said, this is turning into the "slow motion version" of the worst case scenario for New Orleans. AySz88^-^ 17:37, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Hancock Co.

No reports of deaths in Hancock County, Mississippi? Or have they just not been able to get out there to search as of yet? Mike H (Talking is hot) 17:36, August 31, 2005 (UTC) I say they have not gotten to that stage yet.


First reports of deaths in New Orleans

"U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu (news, bio, voting record) told reporters she had heard at least 50 to 100 people were dead in New Orleans." I think we should add it into the totals.[15]

Can't understand what she meant by "at least 50 to 100 people", if she just said "at least 50 people" it would make our update much easier ... --Vsion 18:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
"at least 50 to 100" = the bare minimum being in the range of 50 to 100. I don't think it should be in the article, really, because "she heard" isn't the best source, even if she is a Landrieu, farting sunshine or whatnot. Mike H (Talking is hot) 18:10, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
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