Talk:War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine: Difference between revisions

any attempt to equate Ukraine to Russia in the article on war crimes is wrong and should not be done

Russia is SYSTEMICALLY is committing war crimes and crimes against humanity in Ukraine. Ukraine investigates it and doesn't tolerate violations by its military while Russia encourages and allows war crimes to happen. this is not like the War crimes in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war it is completely different. there is only a few reported instances that were even verified on the Ukrainian side while Russia openly talks about its genocidal intent in Ukraine. Monochromemelo1 (talk) 07:55, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Do you have the name of the Ukranian soldiers punished with war crimes ? Desaibsiaidepikiw (talk) 21:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

There haven't been any convictions yet but it is notable that Ukraine has launched investigations of alleged abuses of POWs https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-investigating-torture-video/31774747.html https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-22/ukraine-videos-alleged-war-crimes-russia-prisoners-makiivka/101682018 while Russia has launched no investigations on war crimes and crimes against humanity it has committed against the civilian population of Ukraine. It would be a false balance to insinuate that. while Ukraine isn't a state party of the Rome statute they do accept its jurisdictions to investigate war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide in its territory. and this does include its own soldiers https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/ukraine-accepts-icc-jurisdiction-over-alleged-crimes-committed-20-february-2014 Monochromemelo1 (talk) 21:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I can only assure you that the citizens of Russia are absolutely sure of the opposite situation, that the armed formations of Ukraine have been committing numerous crimes since 2014 and bear no responsibility for their crimes. I could give you links to Russian sources. But of course you will not believe them because of the negative attitude you have formed towards Russia. 95.25.12.0 (talk) 10:43, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Even in the war in Donbass the vast majority of war crimes committed were done by the Russian backed proxies and there were only a few verified instances of Ukraine committing human rights violations in the regional war dear IP Monochromemelo1 (talk) 03:39, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I understand you to believe in what you write. But I and other Russian citizens also believe in what I write. That the armed formations of Ukraine commit numerous crimes for which they bear no responsibility. 95.25.12.66 (talk) 05:50, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. If that’s not obvious for some reason, I believe there are facts and statements by reliable sources cited in this article or easily located to support that Russia systematically commits war crimes, denies them, doesn’t prosecute them, and has committed the vast majority.  —Michael Z. 03:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Unless you did the counting, it's only your belief. We call it politely, "original research". — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 January 2024

There is a typo, with "found" having been written as "foubd". This should be corrected.

" Ukrainian investigators foubd beheadings, mutilation and incinerated corpses, and the next day three more bodies in a glass factory, The Washington Post reported. " FakeNoid (talk) 07:24, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Corvette ZR1 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 May 2024

Change "cluser" (in "cluser munitions") to "cluster". Lexxieisnthere (talk) 16:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 19:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Lead is clearly POV

The lead is POV and doesn't adequately summarize the article, as the lead exclusively discusses Russian war crimes whereas the body, while mostly focused on Russian war crimes, also in several instances discusses allegations against Ukrainians.

A more fair wording would be something like (roughly) "war crimes happened, the vast majority of allegations against Russians although some against Ukrainians as well..." JDiala (talk) 13:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Going to need to carefully balance "allegations" there if we want to stick to WP:NPOV, whereas war crimes committed against Ukrainians have wide data and references, a lot of the allegations against Ukraine in terms of war crimes are by Russia itself. The Russian state doesn't qualify as WP:RS. TylerBurden (talk) 18:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I doubt we have sources saying Both Russia and Ukraine have been accused of war crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, with the overwhelming majority of both alleged and verified war crimes being perpetrated by Russia or the like [1] .

If we don't, saying that in the lead is the violation of WP:BALANCE.

Quite the contrary, every source says
Moscow’s Disregard of International Humanitarian Law
Historical Soviet and Contemporary Russian Criminal Acts Against Ukrainians Under the UN Genocide Convention
Engaging Post-Truth in Shadowing Russian War Crimes
Russia’s War Crimes in Ukraine as a Tool of War

and so on The Russian-Ukrainian Conflict and War Crimes: Challenges for Document (routledge.com) . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, where's "deliberately operating in highly populated areas" characterized as a war crime in your source [2] ? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 23:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The purpose of the lead is to summarize the article body. See WP:LEAD. The article body describes a variety of war crimes the overwhelming majority of which are Russian, but also includes some by Ukrainians too. A lead paragraph exclusively describing Russian war crimes is propagandistic. As to your other question, Ukrainian fighting tactics were explicitly described as IHL violations by Amnesty International in the cited source: "Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm’s way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, as they repelled the Russian invasion that began in February, Amnesty International said today. Such tactics violate international humanitarian law and endanger civilians, as they turn civilian objects into military targets. The ensuing Russian strikes in populated areas have killed civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure." JDiala (talk) 05:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

A lede paragraph which says “both Ukraine and Russia have been accused of war crimes” when the article itself, as well as all the sources pretty much say “almost ALL of the war crimes that have occurred have been perpetrated by Russia” is “propagandistic” and violates WP:LEDE. It’s simple false equivalence which violates NPOV. Volunteer Marek 07:27, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not a false equivalence if the sentence I wrote expressly refutes the premise that there is an equivalence by using the qualifier "overwhelming majority" for Russian war crimes. One being an overwhelming majority compared to another, does not indicate an equivalence. You also concede your own argument by using the word "almost": the current version of the first paragraph of the lead doesn't suggest to the reader "almost"; it suggests "all." JDiala (talk) 08:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

About operating in populated areas: Not every violation of IHL is a war crime. In that same source Amnesty says that Russia committed war crimes so it is not that Amnesty chose to avoid that phrase in the report. Instead, they chose to write that Ukraine violated IHL, which shows that they did not view Ukraine's actions as war crimes. Sjö (talk) 07:32, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure how your inference that this "shows that they did not view Ukraine's actions as war crimes" follows. Not stating something explicitly does not imply that they reject said thing. In any case, I'd be fine re-wording it to indicate that an IHL violation rather than a war crime per se. This is pedantry. JDiala (talk) 08:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

It's a contentious topic and you should not restore the reverted version until objections raised above have been addressed.
As to your other question, Ukrainian fighting tactics were explicitly described as IHL violations
So, why you added it to "War crimes" article? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 07:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

As I've mentioned above, this is pedantry. The term "war crime" colloquially refers to violations of the laws of war. This purpose of this article is document violations of the laws of war over the course of this conflict. IHL violations fall within the scope of this, even if AI doesn't explicitly use the word "war crime." That there is a tighter, more specific legal description of the term "war crime" is besides the point. You are trying to exclude quality sourced material on the basis of what amounts to a technicality. This standard is not used for other articles on war crimes in other wars or even for Russian alleged war crimes enumerated in this article. JDiala (talk) 08:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Please read through the talk page archives. This has been discussed a few dozen times before. Volunteer Marek 07:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why that matters. It's certainly not uncommon to restart discussions that have been had previously on Wikipedia. JDiala (talk) 08:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)