Talk:Palestinian suicide attacks: Difference between revisions

Undiscussed move

@ScottishFinnishRadish: This page was reverted after a request at WP:RMUM as undiscussed and mover has moved it back again. Ordinarily I would just move it back but since I would not like to be accused of tag teaming or something, I would merely point to Ngram and ask you to do it instead.Selfstudier (talk) 17:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC) Ops, meant to write WP:RM/TR there, silly me. Selfstudier (talk) 18:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

It was created at this title, moved to Palestinian suicide bombing, then reverted back to this title? As Ngrams aren't the deciding factor in article titles, and it does show the use of Palestinian suicide terrorism, this should probably just go through RM and have a consensus title. Palestinian suicide attacks might also be a better target as there are suicide attacks that are not bombings. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:20, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish: The discussion on whether to color this topic with the POV language of "terrorism", to which the answer is pretty clearly not, per MOS:TERRORISM, has been had reiteratively and redundantly many times. The edit summary character limit unfortunately cut it off, but the technical request referred to the latest standing RM on the matter of whether this language is appropriate in this topic area at the clear parent topic for the particular subject here. This community consensus was reconfirmed, in effect, in this follow-up category renaming discussion. Sure we can allow POV terms to be reintroduced every time someone creates a racey new article, but it would be much more sensible if we let previous RFCs and community consensus speak to something. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I understand why some might hesitate to label entire organizations—especially those involved in governance, religion, and social issues—as purely terrorist. However, it is unreasonable to ignore that suicide bombings deliberately targeting civilians for political purposes fit every definition of terrorism. Removing the term 'terrorism' in this context would be nothing short of censorship, an attempt to obscure the true nature of these actions, which, in my opinion, contradicts the very aims of this project. UnspokenPassion (talk) 19:26, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Except not all of the suicide bombings here target civilians, as the usage notes, and suicide bombings against military targets in the context are absolutely not terrorism, so by virtue of this, the title is immediately not only POV, but a clear misnomer. More generally, if you have to write a convoluted sentence like "suicide terrorism refers to the use of suicide bombings" then your actual topic is suicide bombing, which is a real subject, as opposite to suicide terrorism, which is just a POV framing and redirect to suicide attack. There are good reasons for that, not least MOS:TERRORISM, i.e. Nelson Mandela was previously considered a terrorist, yada yada, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:00, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any connection between the disputed labeling of figures and the current topic. Suicide bombings, such as the Passover massacre and the Dolphinarium discotheque massacre, that target civilians to achieve political goals, are universally recognized as the epitome of terrorism—except perhaps by the perpetrators themselves. Are you suggesting that these events might one day not be considered terrorism? If this point isn't clear, I am afraid, continuing this discussion may be futile. Terrorism is a fact in our world; not every mention of it is a matter of POV framing. UnspokenPassion (talk) 20:18, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Phrases like "epitome of terrorism" and "terrorism is a fact" are not encyclopedic. The concept of "terrorism" is highly contingent on framing. Individual examples are not important. The issue here is the POV framing of an entire topic, despite it encompassing non-applicable examples. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Don't waste time arguing over this, RM opened. Selfstudier (talk) 20:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Whole thing reminds me of the persistent efforts to change Palestinian political violence to Palestinian terrorism. Selfstudier (talk) 13:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Something like that. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

POV title

POV article/title by 500+ newish editor (who apropos of nothing at all, also opposed move to UNRWA and Israel here and at MR for Gaza genocide here commented "*Overturn (uninvolved). The new title clearly violates WP:NPOV...!!" Horses for courses, I guess. Selfstudier (talk) 17:32, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The article looks very professional and impressive. The issue of the "newish editor" keeps being raised, but there are rules, and as it stands, it seems that they have not violated them. You haven't raised a substantive argument related to the content. Eladkarmel (talk) 18:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh hi, just dropped in to say hello? otherwise, no surprise there. Selfstudier (talk) 18:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean by that? Eladkarmel (talk) 19:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding "there are rules, and as it stands, it seems that they have not violated them". They have very likely violated the WP:SOCK rule. Does this matter in the topic area? Apparently not. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:13, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you name the editor, or are you expectig us to guess his/her identity? Dimadick (talk) 01:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 21 August 2024

Palestinian suicide terrorism → Palestinian suicide bombings – WP:POVTITLE, all the lead content and pic refer to "bombings" which suggests this material has just been copied from somewhere else and then the title plonked on top, MOS:TERRORISM refers for a value laden label and remove any attacks that are not bombings. Also note What links here, Palestinian suicide bombings, List of Palestinian suicide attacks redirected by article creator to this article. Selfstudier (talk) 20:42, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: This page was unfortunately created with a title that is POV and both lacking in precision and consistency with adjacent topics and itself. As noted by the nom, suicide bombings and suicide attacks are the normal terms for this and adjacent topics, while all of the language on the page refers to bombings. The current title creates the rather hamfisted situation of the first sentence having to clarify that the subject is actually suicide bombing, since the title doesn't elucidate this. The natural, recognisable, precise and usefully descriptive language for the topic is "suicide bombings", as stated in the first sentence. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Support per NPOV and MOS:TERRORISM as an improvement, but really, shouldn't we be talking merge? Suicide attack and Palestinian political violence are notable topics; are Suicide bombing, Palestinian suicide attack, or Palestinian suicide bombing, notable sub-topics? Does it matter if a suicide attack is a bombing or something else? Does it matter if it's Palestinian or someone else? Is there a size problem or other reason to spin off bombings from other attacks, Palestinians from other attackers, or both sub-categories, Palestinian and bombings? I don't think there are enough RS specifically about Palestinian suicide bombings, or suicide bombings in general, to justify a stand-alone. So I'm at "should this article exist?" Levivich (talk) 22:15, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

A person who was not advancing a political agenda would ask themselves this question before creating this article: "Is there something distinctive about suicide bombings carried out by Palestinians?" There is a clear answer to that question, and it points to what should be done with this article. Of course that won't happen. So it goes, so it goes.Dan Murphy (talk) 22:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose The main article is suicide attack and it covers other types of attacks as well. I suggest a rename to Palestinian suicide attacks. Dimadick (talk) 01:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I also support this alternative title. It's a bit of a toss-up depending on how the article is subsequently developed – kept specific to bombing or broadened to attacks in general, although I don't know how a non-bomb attack can be a suicide attack unless it's a kamikaze run in a plane. Isn't the key the guarantee of death? Iskandar323 (talk) 14:45, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The term terrorism is entirely appropriate, neutral, and encyclopedic when referring to suicide bombings that primarily target civilians, as in this case. I don't see any NPOV issue here. Galamore (talk) 06:18, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding suicide bombings that primarily target civilians, I searched and found zero Wikipedia articles entitled "suicide terrorism", and in contrast, there is (1) 2014 Yahyakhel suicide bombing, (2) 22 April 2018 Kabul suicide bombing, (3) 2015 Khost suicide bombing, (4) Sehwan suicide bombing, (5) Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing, (6) Maxim restaurant suicide bombing, (7) 2008 Dimona suicide bombing, (8) Iskandariya suicide bombing, (9) Haifa bus 37 suicide bombing, (10) 2015 Jalalabad suicide bombing, (11) February 2009 Dera Ismail Khan suicide bombing, (12) July 2017 Lahore suicide bombing, (13) Mike's Place suicide bombing, (14) Karnei Shomron Mall suicide bombing, (15) December 2005 HaSharon Mall suicide bombing, (16) 28 December 2017 Kabul suicide bombing, (17) Kabul ambulance bombing, (18) 10 August 2015 Kabul suicide bombing, and more examples can be found at the link if you want more. There is even (19) 2014 Wagah border suicide attack, (20) Tel Aviv–Jerusalem bus 405 suicide attack. starship.paint (RUN) 14:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Quelle suprise ... It's almost as if most of our article titles consistently prefer accurate, neutral and meaningfully descriptive language that identifies the topic, instead of POV framing. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:53, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Some here mention MOS:TERRORIST, but if you read it closely, it does not prohibit usage of terrorism if it's "widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject". Looking at this article I can see that this is exactly the case here and the reliable sources presented reflect that. Eladkarmel (talk) 06:49, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Ngram Bombings is more widely used in RS. Selfstudier (talk) 09:00, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

There can be types of attacks that aren't bombings though. Are shootings and stabbings perpetrated for the same cause completely different? No. PARAKANYAA (talk) 09:01, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Attacks is OK, or else remove those that are not bombings, I don't mind either way. Selfstudier (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Many of the support votes seem, frankly, to call for whitewashing. Suicide bombings against civilian populations are indeed a form of terrorism, as supported by authoritative scholarly sources. There are hundreds of mentions of "Palestinian suicide terrorism" on Google Scholar (548, to be precise) and 8,280 more that feature "suicide terrorism" alongside Palestine/Palestinians, making the current name both common and appropriate for the topic. ABHammad (talk) 08:27, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

• It is not the most WP:COMMONNAME by your metric. There are over a thousand mentions of "Palestinian suicide bombings", 1,190, more than twice of your value. There are 19,500 more that feature "suicide bombings" alongside Palestine/Palestinians, more than twice of your value. Plus another 14,500 more that feature "suicide attacks" alongside Palestine/Palestinians, and 592 for "Palestinian suicide attacks". So clearly "terrorism" is #3 here in terms of commonness. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  A comprehensive Ngrams portrays the same disparity. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:41, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Death/Suicide task force, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject Death, WikiProject Terrorism, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Palestine, WikiProject Israel, and WikiProject Military history/Post-Cold War task force have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 08:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I vote rename to "suicide attacks". PARAKANYAA (talk) 08:57, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support per WP:POVTITLE and MOS:TERRORISM with no prejudice against a move to Palestinian suicide attacks. This article really has a WP:NPOV problem and it starts with the title which sets the tone. Additionaly as noted by another editor "suicide bombings" and "suicide attacks" are the terms in common usage and therefore per WP:COMMONNAME we ought to prefer one of those in the article title. TarnishedPath^talk 09:08, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  Support per tarnishedPaths reasoning Bluethricecreamman (talk) 14:42, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support move away from current name: attacks > bombings > terrorism. Per Dimadick the parent article is suicide attacks, and per Iskandar, the current title is confusing and needs to be clarified, and per MOS:TERRORISM, we should avoid the term terrorism when possible. starship.paint (RUN) 10:09, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
  • I've also proven above that “terrorism” isn’t the WP:COMMONNAME, in fact “bombing” has twice the results in sources (per my reply to ABHammad) and infinitely more results in Wikipedia titles (per my reply to Galamore) starship.paint (RUN) 15:55, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose the suggested move for the following reasons. First, according to MOS:TERRORISM, the term 'terrorism' can be used when it is common in literature. The article's first citation, along with the Google Scholar results mentioned above, confirms that this usage in this context is not only supported, but prevalent by reputable academic sources. Second, suicide bombings targeting civilians are widely recognized as acts of terrorism (e.g., the 9/11 attacks, which are described as terrorism). Therefore, there does not appear to be a point-of-view issue here. PeleYoetz (talk) 10:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

• Great example, the article entitled the September 11 attacks, not September 11 suicide terrorism. I addressed the WP:COMMONNAME argument above - this "terrorism" title is not more common than "attacks" or "bombings". starship.paint (RUN) 14:09, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  It's also because WP:NCE demands neutral descriptions of events. "Terrorism" isn't actually a description of an event or act at all, but just a POV characterisation. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:03, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (creator). I chose the title 'Palestinian suicide terrorism' after reviewing numerous articles and considering several options. I selected this title because, alongside its prominence in academic literature, it best reflects the nature and intent of these acts. In the context of 1990s Israel-Palestine and the Second Intifada (2000–2005), suicide bombings were not merely isolated violent incidents but strategic acts of terror aimed at instilling fear—specifically among the Israeli civilian population—and achieving political objectives, such as undermining the Oslo Accords, damaging the PLO's stature, and later, weakening Israel's economy, creating a balance of fear, and promoting emigration.

While the term 'Palestinian suicide bombings' is also prevalent in sources, it describes only the action itself, which is just one part of what this article covers. The article delves into broader aspects of terrorism in this context, including the religious and nationalistic justifications among Palestinian groups (initially Islamist, later also secular), the recruitment process, influences, planning, and the glorification of perpetrators—topics that extend beyond the bombings alone. I urge serious editors to engage with the matter intellectually, prioritizing the sources over personal opinions. UnspokenPassion (talk) 12:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Naming the article "bombings" or "attacks" (more prevalent in reliable sources as I have proven above in my reply to ABHammad) does not prevent us from discussing either the nature and intent of these acts or the religious and nationalistic justifications among Palestinian groups (initially Islamist, later also secular), the recruitment process, influences, planning, and the glorification of perpetrators. It seems that all of these are a red herring with regard to the article title. starship.paint (RUN) 14:09, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Question - it would be a POVTITLE if there's a controversy about whether the characterization as terrorism is accurate. Is that the case? I'm not aware of any dissenting view. (In any case though, I hesitate to oppose because I think Palestinian suicide bombings is also a suitable name. An argument that one name is accurate isn't an argument for preferring it over another accurate name. I'd only oppose "attacks" as it's vague, conveying the least information.) — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 14:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Using the example brought up by PeleYoetz, is there a serious controversy on whether it is accurate to characterise the September 11 attacks as terrorism? I think not in reliable sources. Why isn’t it September 11 terrorism then? Or September 11 suicide terrorism? starship.paint (RUN) 16:01, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, I'd lean toward renaming to Palestinian suicide bombings, as long as it doesn't create a prejudice against using "terrorism" in the body of the article (as September 11 attacks does). — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 17:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@Starship.paint, @XDanielx, I think we might be mixing up an event—which should be described as an 'attack' or 'bombing'—with a broader phenomenon, where the term 'terrorism' is entirely appropriate (for instance, see examples like Islamic terrorism, Jewish extremist terrorism, etc.). UnspokenPassion (talk) 11:49, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom. Suicide terrorism is such a weird phrasing. Did they sit down in a town square and kill themselves in a ritual suicide to subject onlookers to terror? The only justification is getting the buzzword of "terrorism" into the title, which is a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:TERRORISM.

Suicide bombings is concise, accurate, and a WP:COMMONNAME phrasing. Suicide attack can refer to attacks that don't involve bombs which is why I think suicide bombings is the best title. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 15:07, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with you, but hey, you totally cracked me up! UnspokenPassion (talk) 11:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment When it comes to articles where Israel is the perpetrator all these RFC/RM aim to paint Israel in the worst possible light - Gaza Genocide, Gaza Strip Famine, change Palestinian genocide accusation to Palestinian genocide and then for the inverse, they try to tone it down as much as possible ie try change Israel-Hamas war to Israel Gaza War, change this from Palestinian suicide terrorism to Palestinian suicide bombings, remove every mention of terrorism against Israel that's possible to remove. I can't be the only person who sees this. It's a flagrant disregard of WP:NPOV. The intent of MOS:TERRORIST has been manipulated to the nth degree in order to accommodate this. The way it's being used vis a vis Israel is to prevent anything being labeled as an act of terrorism. MaskedSinger (talk) 17:27, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

This is the point of MOS:TERRORISM. And it cuts both ways. Despite Israel being an almost perpetual perpetrator of state terrorism, for example, with many of its actions collectively amounting to terrorism, we don't label subsections of its actions as "terrorism". Iskandar323 (talk) 19:14, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't operate on a tit-for-tat policy. Every article needs to adhere to the principles of Wikipedia. There are a number of comments here detailing why the current title is violating WP:NPOV and MOS:TERRORIST.

Can you list why you think the spirit of WP:NPOV and MOS:TERRORIST is being violated? This is the page to have such discussions. No one is immune to bias and only by engaging in dialogue and thinking critically can we be sure to be unbiased. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 05:45, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support - this article covers things that are defitionally not terrorism. It says so itself, it includes attacks on military targets. The title here is inaccurate and non-neutral, and none of the opposers has addressed that at all. nableezy - 18:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose the proposal and support @Dimadick:'s alternative proposal of suicide attack, per the parent. Domeditrix (talk) 21:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support renaming but I prefer the "Palestinian suicide attacks" option. The term "suicide attacks" is broader than "suicide bombings" so that's the logical choice. Current title fails WP:NPOV and WP:TERRORISM and it's not the WP:COMMONNAME, as other editors have already mentioned. Renaming it to "suicide bombings" would also be an improvement, but that's my second choice. - Ïvana (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2024 (UTC)