Talk:Proportional representation: Difference between revisions
Drcrazy102 (talk | contribs) m →Edits and Reversions by {{u|BalCoder}} and {{u|Ontario Teacher BFA BEd}}: spelling your name is harder than it seems |
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:::DRN only requires as much or as little input as you wish to provide. Considering how much you have discussed above, I didn't think this would be much of a problem. If {{u|BalCoder}} (you) and {{u|Ontario Teacher BFA BEd}} want, I can attempt to act as a mediator here instead of moving to DRN for discussion of each "item"/section, but I would have to act in a similar way to DRN volunteers/mediators and have you both agree and respect the same type of "rules" (I promise nothing stringent and restrictive). [[User:Drcrazy102|Dr Crazy 102]] ([[User talk:Drcrazy102|talk]]) 04:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC) |
:::DRN only requires as much or as little input as you wish to provide. Considering how much you have discussed above, I didn't think this would be much of a problem. If {{u|BalCoder}} (you) and {{u|Ontario Teacher BFA BEd}} want, I can attempt to act as a mediator here instead of moving to DRN for discussion of each "item"/section, but I would have to act in a similar way to DRN volunteers/mediators and have you both agree and respect the same type of "rules" (I promise nothing stringent and restrictive). [[User:Drcrazy102|Dr Crazy 102]] ([[User talk:Drcrazy102|talk]]) 04:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC) |
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::::[[User:Drcrazy102|Dr Crazy 102]]: You will have noted that in his response Ontario ignored your proposition. I expect him to continue to avoid discussion, because he dosen't have a leg to stand on. So I prefer to play his game and have provided some proposals as he requested. He will avoid answering, perhaps with the excuse I haven't provided sources (he wants sources that say his fanciful statements are wrong?) Please continue to keep an eye on this. --[[User:BalCoder|BalCoder]] ([[User talk:BalCoder|talk]]) 09:57, 21 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:: The approach of [[User:BalCoder]] to revert all edits [[Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary]], in particular minor edits [[Help:Minor edit]] such as: spelling and grammar errors, the addition of Wiki-links [[Help:Link]] (for closed, open, and local list PR), formatting that does not change the meaning of a page (such as adding a table based on existing data or creating subtitles for closed, open and local list PR), obvious factual errors (such as updating that Russia uses MMP now instead of PR), and fixing layout errors, has been counterproductive. The [[Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary]] states: "Don't revert a large edit because much of it is bad and you don't have time to rewrite the whole thing. Instead, find even a little bit of the edit that is not objectionable and undo the rest.". The [[Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle]] also states: "BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes.". In order to avoid [[Wikipedia:Edit warring]], please follow the BRD cycle which states "A bold change during an edit war should be an adaptive edit to discourage further warring and not to escalate it; it should never be another revert.". This means mass reverts of another editor's content is unacceptable; it causes edit warring. Instead, reversions must incorporate minor edits, and only revert the specific areas of disagreement. Adaptive edits are how [[Wikipedia:Consensus]] is built. Once the updated version is restored, I look forward to [[User:BalCoder]]'s proposal of specific adaptive reversions he/she wishes to make substantiated by sourced information. Any sourced information will be considered. Adaptive edits are a method of avoiding a [[Filibuster]] by striving to reach a consensus. [[User:Ontario Teacher BFA BEd|Ontario Teacher BFA BEd]] ([[User talk:Ontario Teacher BFA BEd|talk]]) 19:27, 19 September 2015 (UTC) |
:: The approach of [[User:BalCoder]] to revert all edits [[Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary]], in particular minor edits [[Help:Minor edit]] such as: spelling and grammar errors, the addition of Wiki-links [[Help:Link]] (for closed, open, and local list PR), formatting that does not change the meaning of a page (such as adding a table based on existing data or creating subtitles for closed, open and local list PR), obvious factual errors (such as updating that Russia uses MMP now instead of PR), and fixing layout errors, has been counterproductive. The [[Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary]] states: "Don't revert a large edit because much of it is bad and you don't have time to rewrite the whole thing. Instead, find even a little bit of the edit that is not objectionable and undo the rest.". The [[Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle]] also states: "BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes.". In order to avoid [[Wikipedia:Edit warring]], please follow the BRD cycle which states "A bold change during an edit war should be an adaptive edit to discourage further warring and not to escalate it; it should never be another revert.". This means mass reverts of another editor's content is unacceptable; it causes edit warring. Instead, reversions must incorporate minor edits, and only revert the specific areas of disagreement. Adaptive edits are how [[Wikipedia:Consensus]] is built. Once the updated version is restored, I look forward to [[User:BalCoder]]'s proposal of specific adaptive reversions he/she wishes to make substantiated by sourced information. Any sourced information will be considered. Adaptive edits are a method of avoiding a [[Filibuster]] by striving to reach a consensus. [[User:Ontario Teacher BFA BEd|Ontario Teacher BFA BEd]] ([[User talk:Ontario Teacher BFA BEd|talk]]) 19:27, 19 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::I am aware of BalCoder's actions, and this has been discussed above. I have assumed good-faith on both parts considering the edit-war between both you and BalCoder. I have also assumed that both you and BalCoder are wanting to actually help the article but have come to loggerheads. Please see my above reply to BalCoder about whether you and BalCoder would appreciate Talk-Page moderation instead of DRN. |
:::I am aware of BalCoder's actions, and this has been discussed above. I have assumed good-faith on both parts considering the edit-war between both you and BalCoder. I have also assumed that both you and BalCoder are wanting to actually help the article but have come to loggerheads. Please see my above reply to BalCoder about whether you and BalCoder would appreciate Talk-Page moderation instead of DRN. |
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:::For now, I would suggest starting a sub-section (i.e. <code>=== [area of article] ===</code>) for each area of contention but to keep the section intro brief. This at least allows talk-page discussion of the contested edits. [[User:Drcrazy102|Dr Crazy 102]] ([[User talk:Drcrazy102|talk]]) 04:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC) |
:::For now, I would suggest starting a sub-section (i.e. <code>=== [area of article] ===</code>) for each area of contention but to keep the section intro brief. This at least allows talk-page discussion of the contested edits. [[User:Drcrazy102|Dr Crazy 102]] ([[User talk:Drcrazy102|talk]]) 04:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::[[User:Ontario Teacher BFA BEd|Ontario Teacher BFA BEd]]: My proposals for specific reversions? Here are three, which seem to be the basic misunderstandings on which your ideas are built (please supply the citation and the exact words you refer to): |
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:::# In your "Party list PR" section: "Pure proportional representation systems such as closed and open list do not use delineated electoral districts". Please provide two solid sources, one academic, for this. I first asked for these sources on Aug.26. You still have not provided one and are now spreading this mistake to other WP articles. I'll make it easier for you: ignore the "pure" bit. (NB. www.proportional-representation.org is not acceptable because it concerns only its own specific "one zone" system). |
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:::# MMP is semi-proportional. You don't actually say this in the article in so many words, but you have done on the Talk page, in [[Template:Electoral systems]] and in the [[Mixed-member proportional representation|MMP]] article, and you have moved MMP from "PR electoral systems" to a new "Mixed electoral systems" section and added there a link to the semi-PR article. You did that despite the three sources (one of which you deleted) in para.2 of the article as currently protected (refs 6,7,8) that contradict this. Please provide three solid sources for this including two academic sources, just like the sources you choose to overlook. |
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:::# You wrote in [[User:Abecedare]]'s [[Special:Diff/681552121|talk page ]]: "The principal point of contention is User:BalCoder's belief that mixed electoral systems do not exist." Please identify one place anywhere in WP where I say this, and my exact words. |
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:::If you can't provide these sources (they don't exist) please revert all related changes. --[[User:BalCoder|BalCoder]] ([[User talk:BalCoder|talk]]) 09:57, 21 September 2015 (UTC) |
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== Page protected == |
== Page protected == |
Revision as of 09:57, 21 September 2015
Politics B‑class High‑importance | ||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
Deviation from proportionality was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 10 October 2014 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Proportional representation. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
Lithuania
Doesn't Lithuania have some sort of proportional representation system?
Edits and Reversions by BalCoder and Ontario Teacher BFA BEd
First part of discussion between BalCoder and Ontario Teacher BFA BEd. Please do not modify this discussion.
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Ontario Teacher BFA BEd: You have re-inserted statements I reverted so I am again reverting them. Here are the reasons.
1, Link between constituent and representative: In your new first sentence, "ridings do not exist" is wrong (you contradict yourself in the next sentence - "half of the electoral ridings" - for this reason alone your revision should be reverted). Ridings exist in all PR systems, they are simply bigger than in an FPTP system. So your claim that "there is no link between voters and their parliamentary representatives" is wrong, only where the district encompasses "larger districts, especially those with a nationwide district" is the point justified but you have deleted that. Why? With STV there are no rules saying Nunavut cannot continue to be a single member district if that's what people want. When STV was used in Alberta and Manitoba all rural districts were single member; in the recent STV plan for the UK mentioned elsewhere in the article the Outer Hebrides would continue to be a single member district. Perhaps I misunderstand the word "ridings" which appears here for the first time in the article. I assume it means electoral "districts" but, not knowing Canada, I am not sure. In WP it is a good idea when a term is used for the first time to provide a link to the appropriate WP article. In "The disadvantage of the proportional representation system..." the first "The" is wrong because, as the rest of the article makes clear, there are other PR disadvantages: you must use the indefinite article. The next "the", in "of the proportional representation system", is also wrong: There is not one PR system but three (see the top of the article). Better would be "of proportional representation..." referring to just the concept. In MMP, you write, "half of the electoral ridings are elected through PR". That too is wrong, in NZ they have 50 list members and 70 districts and are thinking of fixing a 40:60 ratio; Lesotho has a still lower ratio. But you have deleted the words that hinted at this, "up to half". MMP is normally "mixed member proportional representation You have deleted the essay template ({{essay|section|date=May 2015}} at the beginning of the section). Why? The rest of the section doesnt't have an essay-like style? The text you replaced may not have been much good but you have clearly not improved it. What point are you trying to make which wasn't already addressed? Can't you integrate it into the existing text? 2, Party list PR: you have added the statement "Unfortunately, this can result in candidates that appeal more to their respective political bases than to the general public as a whole." That may be so but you haven't provided a source. Please see WP:VERIFY: "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." An example too would be good. --BalCoder (talk) 08:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
BalCoder
I agree that WP requires articles to reflect sources. Therefore, I have provided sources below that should clear up your confusion as to what mixed systems are: "Mixed electoral systems attempt to combine the positive attributes of both plurality/majority (or other) and PR electoral systems. In a mixed system, there are two electoral systems using different formulae running alongside each other. The votes are cast by the same voters and contribute to the election of representatives under both systems. One of those systems is a plurality/majority system (or occasionally an ‘other’ system), usually a single-member district system, and the other a List PR system. There are two forms of mixed system. When the results of the two types of election are linked, with seat allocations at the PR level being dependent on what happens in the plurality/majority (or other) district seats and compensating for any disproportionality that arises there, the system is called a Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) system." [1] "C. Mixed Systems Some jurisdictions have chosen to use a mixture of majority and proportional representation systems in order to achieve the benefits of both. Since the late 1940s in Germany, for example, one half of the seats in the Bundestag (the lower house of parliament) have been filled by plurality, using single-member constituencies, while the other half are filled using party lists, according to the d'Hondt system. Voters mark two choices on their ballot papers: one from among a list of parties, the other from among a slate of candidates for district representation."[2] To conclude, as verified by the above sources, there are actually three voting systems: plurality/majoritarian, mixed, and PR. 'Mixed systems' is a distinct voting system category which shares characteristics of both PR and plurality systems. The fact that mixed voting systems such as MMP share characteristics with PR systems does not negate the existence of this distinct and critical third category. Additionally, a plethora of sources within the article clearly state that the two PR types are STV and party list. It is important not to confuse readers by inserting contradictions into the article. I encourage you to follow WP:VERIFY policy, and thoroughly research mixed systems prior to capriciously denying their existence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ontario Teacher BFA BEd (talk • contribs) 11:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
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- Ontario Teacher BFA BEd: "'Mixed systems' is a distinct voting system category": well, which is it, a voting system, as you write in the lead, or a voting system category? A good faith editor, comparing O'Neal with the other sources, would realize that a researcher in the Canadian parliament's research service in 1993 does not trump the world's academics, and would not use the source, especially as O'Neal does not mention "mixed member" or "MMP" at all. A good faith editor would avoid the inconsistency of questioning the reliability as sources of advocacy groups such as Fairvote USA, and then using the Electoral Reform Society's classification of voting systems to set aside Forder at Oxford UK, Amy at Mt.Holyoke College, Mass., and the Law Commission of Canada. A good faith editor would realize that voting system classifications are irrelevant in the lead because the concern there is to summarize ways to produce a proportional result - two of the methods mentioned are not even voting systems. In the body a classification, two tier systems, is used as a section title to add structure. The term is particularly appropriate because two tier apportionment exists specifically to improve proportional representation, the subject of the article. So a good faith editor would realize that re-naming the "Two tier systems" section to "Mixed systems" is inappropriate, since some mixed systems (all but one) are not proportional, and some of the following sub-sections (all but one) have nothing to do with mixed systems. Placing "Mixed systems" at the same level as "PR electoral systems" as if it were something other than PR, is wrong and will mislead readers. In the same way, a good faith editor of Template:Electoral systems would not re-name "Semi-proportional representation" to "Mixed systems" because most of the following sub-sections, e.g.cumulative voting, have nothing to do with mixed systems; in fact, a good faith editor would be in no doubt that such a crude change would be tantamount to vandalism. A good faith editor with not even the most tenuous understanding of party list systems would refrain from changing the article's party list PR section, regardless of how bad it is, and if nonetheless tempted would provide sources for any outlandish claims - arguing from the specific (Netherlands/Israel) to the general (open & closed lists have no districts) is a logical fallacy and no good. Understanding that the article concerns PR, a good faith editor would realize that an extensive discourse on closed party lists in single nationwide districts would be more appropriate in the Party list article (the Template:Main link to which you deleted). A good faith editor, especially a beginner, would respect WP rules and guidelines when they are pointed out, and take care not to delete a section ("Wider benefits to society") and other sourced text inadvertently, or without explanation. A good faith editor, knowing that Canada is not the only FPTP user, would hesitate to claim for FPTP the universal benefit of facilitating the removal of party leaders from parliament when the Canadian example is probably due more to the weak identification of Canadians with political parties. Your edits (to say nothing of your Talk posts) have not demonstrated good faith so, since no admin has deigned to respond to my WP:ANI request to block you, I have no alternative but to revert. (As a final tip I refer you to Help:Show preview about avoiding clogging up the change log). --BalCoder (talk) 08:48, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps Admins haven't responded since they may end up blocking you both due to WP:BOOMERANG? You're argument of "Admins haven't done
what I wantedanything, so I'll take matters into my own hands" (paraphrased) is very weak grounds for an WP:EDITWAR and reverting, though I do agree with your mention of using the "Preview" button to avoid "clogging up the change log" as you put it. - Too be completely frank, this needs either several RfCs for each section of disputed content, or a few WP:3O's from interested editors, or perhaps simply going to WP:DRN. Have either of you actually sought any of these options? Dr Crazy 102 (talk) 12:44, 14 September 2015 (UTC); edited 10:10, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps Admins haven't responded since they may end up blocking you both due to WP:BOOMERANG? You're argument of "Admins haven't done
- Dr Crazy 102: Thanks for your comments. I was prepared, almost expected, to be blocked too, at least that would have been a response. I reject your characterization: my grounds for reverting are documented repeatedly and at length above. Having tried reasoning on the Talk page, invoking WP:BRD, invoking WP:ANI and asking for help or suggestions on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics page (which is what a RfC would have done) I think I have done enough. So I am back to simply reverting again. I wasn't aware of WP:3O and WP:DRN but if you or anyone else want to try them you are welcome. --BalCoder (talk) 08:03, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- BalCoder, I was perhaps a bit harsh with the wording of your reasoning for reverting (and have changed it), but what you wanted was for a response and for someone to be blocked (either Ontario, yourself or both). I would also like to point out that there is no onus on outside participants to mediate unless they are acting as volunteers for one of the above services, or they are an Admin volunteering their time. An RfC actually goes out to a lot more people than a single WikiProject. Have a look at the Feedback Request Service (a.k.a. RfC Members list) for what I mean, though it is good that you also put up a notice at the WikiProject Politics page.
- If you want me to, I can attempt to help with any resolution attempts you and/or Ontario want to make (through technical help or suggestions), or I can ask for an Admin to either mediate themselves or WP:PING another Admin who has more experience or inclination. Dr Crazy 102 (talk) 10:10, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Dr Crazy 102: Thanks again for your help - you are the only one to have offered any. I would be delighted if you could involve an admin. Unfortunately, if they do not know a little of the subject it might cost them a little time. Apart from hitting the undo button from time to time, I do not intend to spend any more time on User Ontario - his latest post below "I am thrilled..." etc (01:08 15 Sep) shows how pointless it is - but of course if any admin asks for clarification I will provide it. --BalCoder (talk) 13:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
BalCoder I am thrilled we have finally come to a consensus that 'mixed systems' is a distinct voting system. I noticed that you had previously removed the mention of mixed systems from the article several months prior to my contributions "(cur | prev) 11:27, 11 December 2014 BalCoder (talk | contribs) . . (75,151 bytes) (+17,245) . . (Lead: compress (WP:LEADLENGTH), simplify. Body: replace STV; change mixed to two-tier systems, replace MMP, add biproportional rep.; add sortition, some page nos.) (undo | thank)". This critical language has now been restored. I have added three scholarly articles to the already lengthy list of sources on the topic of mixed electoral systems. [3][4][5][6]: 22 [7][8] [9] [10] [11]. Hopefully this ends the contention about the existence of mixed systems. You have argued "some mixed systems (all but one) are not proportional". I encourage you to conduct research to substantiate this opinion and contribute sourced text. You might want to consider adding content to 'Additional Member System', and 'Alternative Vote Plus' in order to clarify why you feel AMS and AVP are less proportional mixed systems compared to MMP; which as a hybrid system is only somewhat proportional.
You have previously asserted that "all PR systems use districts". I am relieved that you have now observed that the Netherlands and Israel as well as the Ukraine and Russia (when they used PR) use party list PR without delineated districts. [12][13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [14] That is to say, these nations are not subdivided into local constituencies, but rather the entire country is one zone. This fact is particularly relevant to the section 'Link between constituent and representative'.
However, I am deeply disappointed by your intentionally abrasive behaviour. Please treat other editors with the same level of respect with which you wish to be treated. Please take the time to practice good faith by researching your claims and post sourced contributions as I have done. Alternatively, if you do not wish to take the time and effort to research the topic and post sourced contributions to the article, you might want to consider pursuing other topics instead. Ontario Teacher BFA BEd (talk) 01:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Umm, Ontario Teacher BFA BEd, what are you saying in your second sentence? I think you may be wanting to use a Wikipedia:Diff link instead of showing the text of the said diff as the diff link shows far more information as well as the relevant content changes. At any rate, this seems to be the diff Ontario is referring to. Dr Crazy 102 (talk) 10:37, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Dr Crazy 102 Thank you for your mediation. I am disappointed that BalCoder has chosen not to research the topic and post sourced contributions, and instead has decided to periodically and arbitrarily revert the WP article. That being said, he/she has claimed that "some mixed systems (all but one) are not proportional". Although there was no sourced research to substantiate this opinion, it does bring up a valid point; if the article includes some Semi-proportional representation systems such as MMP, why not others such as Alternative Vote Plus, Additional Member System, and Majority bonus system? I have therefore included other mixed electoral systems, and included them in the article. So far, I have simply transferred existing content from their respective WP pages. I have also restructured the article to reposition 'Two-tier party list systems', 'Biproportional apportionment', and 'Sortition' into the 'Party List' PR section as these are not types of mixed electoral systems. I would welcome a fellow editor who is willing to put the time and effort into researching the topic and post sourced contributions.Ontario Teacher BFA BEd (talk) 23:15, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- I am hardly mediating compared to some of what I have seen, though I suppose I am in a small way. I have discussed BalCoder's reversion behaviour above, though I can understand where they are coming from; 'no one seems to have noticed or acted to mediate, they decided to attempt to solve the problem themselves'. While this is highly discouraged outside of exceptional circumstances, per WP:BRD and WP:IAR, it is understandable. To be frank with you as well, you seem to be a bit passive-aggressive with your own posts. Do not call out conduct unless absolutely needed, and try to do so in a productive way, not an "I don't like it" statement, as this can inflame the situation and just leads to general enmity.
- To be honest, I don't understand much of the political systems and can hardly remember how I came to this page (fuzzy memory of perhaps WP:ANI, rather ironic really). I have little opinion on the inclusion or exclusions of the content as I don't understand the systems. However, your statement: "I have simply transferred existing content from their respective WP pages," does raise some concerns as that typically needs a Template:Copied inserted to maintain a level of credibility and to show that it isn't actually your own work but, in fact, is someone else's (likely several someone else's). I'm not too fussed as your edits do seem to be in good-faith and you are still new to Wiki according to your account logs, so this is to inform you not reprimand. I will try to find an Admin to try better mediation, and to review the ANI posts. I will also start a new RfC about the disputed content, if that is still desired. Please remember to use indents (a.k.a.
:
) when posting comments that are in reply to something (preferably under what is being replied to), Dr Crazy 102 (talk) 07:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC); minor edit 09:17, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
- Proposition - Would either BalCoder or Ontario Teacher BFA BEd be opposed to moving this discussion to WP:DRN? Dr Crazy 102 (talk) 11:16, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- Dr Crazy 102: Thanks again for your perseverence. A pity that no-one with understanding of the subject seems willing to help, but understandable. I have looked at a few WP:DRN items and am dismayed by the amount of input required from the protagonists so I prefer User:Abecedare's talk page suggestion to User:Ontario, which amounts to WP:BRD: Ontario has been bold, I have reverted, now we discuss item by item. I am waiting for Ontario to propose the first change he wants to make. --BalCoder (talk) 13:40, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- DRN only requires as much or as little input as you wish to provide. Considering how much you have discussed above, I didn't think this would be much of a problem. If BalCoder (you) and Ontario Teacher BFA BEd want, I can attempt to act as a mediator here instead of moving to DRN for discussion of each "item"/section, but I would have to act in a similar way to DRN volunteers/mediators and have you both agree and respect the same type of "rules" (I promise nothing stringent and restrictive). Dr Crazy 102 (talk) 04:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
- Dr Crazy 102: You will have noted that in his response Ontario ignored your proposition. I expect him to continue to avoid discussion, because he dosen't have a leg to stand on. So I prefer to play his game and have provided some proposals as he requested. He will avoid answering, perhaps with the excuse I haven't provided sources (he wants sources that say his fanciful statements are wrong?) Please continue to keep an eye on this. --BalCoder (talk) 09:57, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
- The approach of User:BalCoder to revert all edits Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary, in particular minor edits Help:Minor edit such as: spelling and grammar errors, the addition of Wiki-links Help:Link (for closed, open, and local list PR), formatting that does not change the meaning of a page (such as adding a table based on existing data or creating subtitles for closed, open and local list PR), obvious factual errors (such as updating that Russia uses MMP now instead of PR), and fixing layout errors, has been counterproductive. The Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary states: "Don't revert a large edit because much of it is bad and you don't have time to rewrite the whole thing. Instead, find even a little bit of the edit that is not objectionable and undo the rest.". The Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle also states: "BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes.". In order to avoid Wikipedia:Edit warring, please follow the BRD cycle which states "A bold change during an edit war should be an adaptive edit to discourage further warring and not to escalate it; it should never be another revert.". This means mass reverts of another editor's content is unacceptable; it causes edit warring. Instead, reversions must incorporate minor edits, and only revert the specific areas of disagreement. Adaptive edits are how Wikipedia:Consensus is built. Once the updated version is restored, I look forward to User:BalCoder's proposal of specific adaptive reversions he/she wishes to make substantiated by sourced information. Any sourced information will be considered. Adaptive edits are a method of avoiding a Filibuster by striving to reach a consensus. Ontario Teacher BFA BEd (talk) 19:27, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- I am aware of BalCoder's actions, and this has been discussed above. I have assumed good-faith on both parts considering the edit-war between both you and BalCoder. I have also assumed that both you and BalCoder are wanting to actually help the article but have come to loggerheads. Please see my above reply to BalCoder about whether you and BalCoder would appreciate Talk-Page moderation instead of DRN.
- For now, I would suggest starting a sub-section (i.e.
=== [area of article] ===
) for each area of contention but to keep the section intro brief. This at least allows talk-page discussion of the contested edits. Dr Crazy 102 (talk) 04:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
- Ontario Teacher BFA BEd: My proposals for specific reversions? Here are three, which seem to be the basic misunderstandings on which your ideas are built (please supply the citation and the exact words you refer to):
- In your "Party list PR" section: "Pure proportional representation systems such as closed and open list do not use delineated electoral districts". Please provide two solid sources, one academic, for this. I first asked for these sources on Aug.26. You still have not provided one and are now spreading this mistake to other WP articles. I'll make it easier for you: ignore the "pure" bit. (NB. www.proportional-representation.org is not acceptable because it concerns only its own specific "one zone" system).
- MMP is semi-proportional. You don't actually say this in the article in so many words, but you have done on the Talk page, in Template:Electoral systems and in the MMP article, and you have moved MMP from "PR electoral systems" to a new "Mixed electoral systems" section and added there a link to the semi-PR article. You did that despite the three sources (one of which you deleted) in para.2 of the article as currently protected (refs 6,7,8) that contradict this. Please provide three solid sources for this including two academic sources, just like the sources you choose to overlook.
- You wrote in User:Abecedare's talk page : "The principal point of contention is User:BalCoder's belief that mixed electoral systems do not exist." Please identify one place anywhere in WP where I say this, and my exact words.
- Ontario Teacher BFA BEd: My proposals for specific reversions? Here are three, which seem to be the basic misunderstandings on which your ideas are built (please supply the citation and the exact words you refer to):
- If you can't provide these sources (they don't exist) please revert all related changes. --BalCoder (talk) 09:57, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Page protected
I have full-protected the article to prevent the current edit-war from continuing. I have restored the article to what seems to be its stable state before applying the protection. This is solely in the spirit of WP:BRD and not an endorsement of that version. I encourage involved editors to discuss the issue and reach consensus over the proposed changes. Use the resources of WP:POLITICS, WP:NPOVN or WP:RSN if you need outside views, of follow one the dispute resolution processes. I'll be happy to lift the protection early if such a consensus is reached, or if there are assurances that the edit-war won't continue. Abecedare (talk) 21:59, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
- ^ "Electoral Systems". Administration and Cost of Elections (ACE) Project. Retrieved 31 Aug 2015.
- ^ O’Neal, Brian. "Electoral Systems". Parliament of Canada. Retrieved 31 Aug 2015.
- ^ "Voting Systems Made Simple". Electoral Reform Society.
- ^ "Electoral Systems". Administration and Cost of Elections (ACE) Project. Retrieved 31 Aug 2015.
- ^ O’Neal, Brian. "Electoral Systems". Parliament of Canada. Retrieved 31 Aug 2015.
- ^ "Voting Counts: Electoral Reform for Canada" (PDF). Law Commission of Canada. 2004. p. 22.
- ^ Forder, James (2011). The case against voting reform. Oxford: Oneworld Publications. ISBN 978-1-85168-825-8.
- ^ "Electoral Systems and the Delimitation of Constituencies". International Foundation for Electoral Systems. 2 Jul 2009.
- ^ Moser, Robert G. (Dec 2004). "Mixed electoral systems and electoral system effects: controlled comparison and cross-national analysis" (in Volume 23 and Issue 4). Electoral Studies: An International Journal: 575–599.
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(help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link) - ^ Massicotte, Louis (Sep 1999). "Mixed electoral systems: a conceptual and empirical survey" (in Volume 18 and Issue 3). Electoral Studies: An International Journal: 341–366.
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(help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link) - ^ Manow, Philip (2007). "Electoral rules and legislative turnover: Evidence from Germany's mixed electoral system" (in Volume 30 and Issue 1). Electoral Studies: An International Journal: 195-207.
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(help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link) - ^ "The Electoral System in Israel". The Knesset.
- ^ "The Electoral System in Israel". Israel Government Portal.
- ^ a b "Dutch politics — a primer for foreigners". Quirksmode.
- ^ "Electoral Systems: District Magnitude". ACE The Electoral Knowledge Network.
- ^ Against All Odds: Aiding Political Parties in Georgia and Ukraine (UvA Proefschriften) by Max Bader, Vossiuspers UvA, 2010, ISBN 90-5629-631-0 (page 93)
- ^ Regional Politics in Russia by Cameron Ross, Manchester University Press, 2012, ISBN 0-7190-5890-2 (page 45)
- ^ "Putin signs into law Duma mixed electoral system: http://sputniknews.com/voiceofrussia/news/2014_02_24/Putin-signs-into-law-Duma-mixed-electoral-system-5992/". Radio The Voice of Russia. 24Feb2014.
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- ^ "Party List PR". Electoral Reform Society.
- ^ Fobes, Richard (2006). Ending the Hidden Unfairness in U.S. Elections. Solutions Through Innovation. p. 95. ISBN 0-9632221-2-0.