User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions

WP:VER

Just a concern i wanted to share here since this page is watched by numerous editors. Many articles contain sources that are not available for verification because there is no link to access them. What about making the inclusion of (blue)links mandatory when a source is cited ? Stay safe everybody.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:37, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

There is no requirement that a reliable source used as a reference be available online. When high quality sources about a topic are ample, then online sources are preferred. But paper sources that have never been digitized are fine for more obscure topics. I sometimes write articles about mountaineering and biographies of climbers, and sometimes cite old climbing books I own, and some do not even have ISBN numbers. But they are still reliable sources, if issued by a reputable publisher. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 20:46, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Firstly, thanks for your answer. I got you and i understand better now, i did not realize that some reliable sources can still be unpublished. Cheers.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:52, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

No, Wikaviani, that is not what I said. Reliable sources must be published, whether on paper, online or both. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 20:58, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, when i said "unpublished", i meant unpublished online. My bad.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:01, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with using page 239 of a book as a cite. However, when it is a very obscure book that an average person would have difficulty obtaining, it is a bit of a problem. I've come across some articles that had extensive citations like this, and wasn't really happy about it, because there was no way of knowing whether WP:HIJACK or WP:OR were occurring.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:05, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I understand the point you are making, but there is a way of verifying the detail which is to acquire a copy of the book, or look for other reliable sources that cite the original source. It may be difficult, but it isn't impossible. Scientific publishing has been going on for decades long before the advent of the Internet and people managed then. QuiteUnusual (talk) 15:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

This situation is very much worse now that almost all university research libraries have closed to the public due to the pandemic. Obscure offline sources have become orders of magnitude more difficult to verify. 2601:647:5E00:C5A0:78A7:1605:3AA4:164F (talk) 05:27, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

The WP:V policy includes adding pertinent quotations to offline and/or book ref's for controversial articles. I would suggest the quotation policy be applied more liberally, so as to aid editors reviewing text for accuracy. Pasdecomplot (talk) 12:21, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

BLP and Wikidata

Hi Jimmy, I hope the plague is staying clear of you and yours.

I'm starting to get questions offline about Wikidata and the possible WP:BLP impact of the data we store there. It seems to be the wild west right now. As I understand it, the intent of WP:BLP is that its foundational principles are mandatory across all projects. Is that correct? I ask because, e.g. Q93579649 links to Bill Gates, so data mining for Bill Gates in Wikidata introduces exactly the kind of asymmetric link we avoid - the mention of Gates-related conspiracist bullshit by Plandemic is significant to Plandemic, but not to Bill Gates. Right now there doesn't seem to be any bar to addition of living people to Wikidata items I am sure you have given this some thought in the past, what's your view please? Guy (help! - typo?) 16:11, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I share a broad concern about possible BLP problems and WikiData, but I'll just note that I'm not sure that this example is compelling. Our article Plandemic mentions Bill Gates and the Gates Foundation, as you note. But so does Special:WhatLinksHere/Bill_Gates mention Plandemic which is more or less the same thing as the symmetric link that you are concerned about. But when I go to wikidata:Q5284 which is the entry over there on Bill Gates, it doesn't seem to reference Plandemic. But perhaps I'm overlooking something, because I would have thought that it would. I'd be very happy to explore this example further.

My broader concerns have to do with issues of data quality. And by the way, I'm not saying that data quality is bad there. I'm just saying that I worry about whether the processes of adding and editing and vetting data are scalable in the same way that the encyclopedia has proven to be. I don't know of any major problems, it's just something that I think about and am interested in.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:53, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Addendum: I'll give an example. wikidata:Q181 is about me and lists a youtube channel without any reference. How did that get there? What if I didn't control the channel and someone put offensive content there, and someone else used the wikidata connection as evidence that it's really my channel? (In this case it is under my control, and it has no content and probably never will.) Right now, fake information placed there is pretty harmless but it is the ambition of wikidata (and rightly so) to power all kinds of interesting knowledge projects and so just as a random weird small error in Wikipedia can have important consequences in terms of making people unhappy, the same will be true of wikidata.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:57, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Why aren't you a vlogger? 96.90.213.161 (talk) 22:24, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales, I guess tighter integration into Wikipedia might fix that (e.g. via the infobox), so that errors are more obvious, but then we'd have infobox wars and endless genre wars because something of the class long-thing-on-youtube must be a movie, and being a movie it must be of class documentary because it pretends to be factual. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:51, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Thoughts on renaming the WMF

Serious question: What are your thoughts on the Wikimedia Foundation's plans to rename themselves to something that includes "Wikipedia"? Goose^(Talk!) 00:48, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: Why is it called Wikimedia Foundation? They should just call it Wikipedia foundation. It’s less confusing. Wikimedia rhymes with Wikipedia. Might as well use the real one. Zoe1013 (talk) 10:43, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it is right to say that the WMF has a plan to rename themselves to something that includes "Wikipedia". That idea has been put forward but no decision has been made to do it, and indeed the entire rebranding project has been put on hold until March 2021. This RfC showed significant community opposition to the proposal.

If you are asking for my personal opinion on what should be done, I don't think that is particularly important.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:17, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Question about WP's exposure

Jimmy, does WMF and/or involved editors have any liability exposure for including material in a BLP that is cited to a news source the BLP has sued for defamation (and we unknowingly used related material cited to that news source), and the BLP ends up winning the defamation suit? Example: - material cited to Yahoo News about Carter Page. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 12:35, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I frequently work as an expert consultant in that kind of legal case. Theoretical legal exposure is very different from practical legal exposure. If you want to know whether a legal claim is theoretically possible, consult a lawyer. What you really need to know is the probability of a claim being filed. If somebody here cites published material and isn't conspiring to harm the biography subject, the chance of being sued is virtually nil, based on everything I've seen. If there were to be a legal claim, it would most likely be made against the original source of publication, not those who republished the content in good faith. Finally, if you have homeowners or renters insurance it probably covers you for liability related to volunteer activities, such as editing Wikipedia. Ask your insurance agent to be sure. Jehochman ^Talk 13:33, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Jehochman - I do keep a liability policy despite being a retired media professional because my work is still in circulation. I'm not too concerned about my activity on WP being that I'm aware of potential consequences and adhere strictly to BLP policy and US Laws. I was more concerned about those editors who are not familiar with the potential RW consequences of adding defamatory material in a BLP - worse yet, when it's removed as a BLP vio, they revert. It certainly doesn't hurt to know there are potential repurcussions that may arise over the repeating of defamation without privilege and without permission, especially when there is legal precedent. Hopefully this little discussion will prove helpful to some - simply for the sake of caution with no great cause for concern. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:53, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Jehochman is correct. Barrett v. Rosenthal also covers republication of libelous allegations made on the internet, even if the republisher knows the allegations are false. Only the original publisher can be sued. That was a radical and new ruling, as the republishers in that case knew the allegations were false, yet they got protection. -- Valjean (talk) 15:16, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

My personal experiences (and having to keep an entertainment atty on retainer throughout my career - cha-ching!) coupled with the experiences of other editors and the WMF's serve as a stark reminder that stuff happens. I thought this was a decent article about this topic. Regardless, it's always better to err on the side of caution. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:35, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, can you provide a source confirming that Page won a defamation suit? The source you cited merely indicates that he filed a suit, which anyone can do, and which has no inherent bearing on the accuracy of the source or our content. A brief search suggests that Page has filed a number of meritless and unsuccessful defamation lawsuits. It also seems that Page's specific suit against Yahoo! and HuffPost, which you reference above, was unsuccessful ("Another suit accusing Yahoo, HuffPost and Radio Free Europe of libel for their reports related to Page was dismissed by a federal judge in New York"). Can you clarify which defamation suit Page won, or were you simply proposing a hypothetical? MastCell ^Talk 17:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Where did I say he won it? ^Adding...It was hypothetical, and the case I was referencing is this one in Superior Court of Delaware. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:35, 2 October 2020 (UTC) ^{Addition 17:47, 2 October 2020 (UTC)}

Your initial post strongly implied that Page had won a defamation suit. (Otherwise there would be no risk, theoretical or otherwise, to Wikipedia, and the question wouldn't make much sense). Thank you for clarifying that your example was hypothetical and counterfactual.

We obviously can't suppress well-sourced coverage simply because a suit has been filed, since a) the mere existence of a suit has no bearing on the source's accuracy; b) these suits are largely unsuccessful; and c) frivolous defamation suits may even be used as a tool to manipulate and suppress unflattering realities. I'm more concerned that invoking litigation, as you've done above, has a chilling effect on our editors' appropriate coverage of topics. MastCell ^Talk 18:10, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback, MastCell. I will keep it in mind. BTW, I was under the impression the Delaware case was still open, which is why I presented my question hypothetically and used that particular case as an example because if things appeared to be going south, we still had time to make corrections, if any were needed. Regardless, you answered my question and appear rather confident that Jimmy & WMF agree with you - that works for me. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:45, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

The smart thing to do is to avoid biased sources for controversial information about BLPs in general. If it is important more neutral sources will cover it, if they aren't then it is a BLP violation. PackMecEng (talk) 19:19, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng, always excellent advice. Stick int he Ad Fontes "green box of joy" as a basis. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I would even do one better. For controversial statements about BLP I also skip the green boxes that need to be attributed, are noted as biased, or are outside their core reporting. PackMecEng (talk) 22:41, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng, again, sound advice. Better sources, more neutral sources, and more sources. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:43, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, Norwich Pharmacal Orders are not enforceable in the US. Libel tourism is also not permitted. Fun fact: I applied for and obtained a Norwich Pharmacal Order against a harasser, as a litigant-in-person. The German case is also not relevant, as German law does not rule in the USA, you have to have a tangible connection to Germany (cf. Britt Marie Hermes). Guy (help! - typo?) 22:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, no. The test for Oath is New York Times v. Sullivan, it would be necessary to show "actual malice", which means a wilful disregard for the truth rather than personal animus. The same test would apply to any Wikipedia editor, and any lawsuit would need to demonstrate that the editor(s) knew that the stories were false or acted in wilful disregard of their truth. This lawsuit by Page is performative - he will not win. Almost certainly he's hoping for an out of court settlement, which is common in order to avoid legal expenses. Page already filed suit in New York in 2017 on the same claims against the same defendants; the case was tossed. This time he's suing in Delaware presumably because Delaware's anti-SLAPP provisions are very narrow. It's not an obviously batshit claim (unlike Nunes, he's using a real law firm with actual lawyers, not some rube with an Earthlink address) but unless Delaware public law overrides Sullivan, he's still unlikely to prevail. As I say, I think this is designed to gain a settlement and PR victory, to save legal costs, or posibly to try a fishing expedition through discovery. WMF is protected under the CDA. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:46, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Y ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:47, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Tamil

Hi, Jimbo. Can you correct the months in the Tamil version please?--89.80.238.24 (talk) 16:11, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Comment: I don’t think he has time to edit that article. It’s best you do it yourself. He is probably too busy being the founder of WT Social to do it. Zoe1013 (talk) 11:18, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Because it is not January but tai in Tamil--89.80.238.24 (talk) 15:10, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

I am talking of the months you can see in the history section of Wikipedia--89.80.238.24 (talk) 08:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Your thoughts on this please

• WP:NONAZIS

Wikipedia is supposed to be (and usually is) a welcoming place, a broad church. Is it actually OK to carve out an exception for racists? In the current political climate there is a widespread misconception that because most racists are right-wing, so suppression of racism is anti-right (or pro-left) bias. What's your view on this, as we find ourselves right now? Guy (help! - typo?) 11:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: Racists also hate black children skipping a grade because they are scared of black kids getting an advantage in life. They love inequality so they make sure black kids are labeled as “learning disabled” and segregated in separate classrooms for the rest of their school career. Why do you think African American children are more likely to be educated in a more restrictive environments? It’s not just a coincidence. It’s a social construct to make sure black people are always on the bottom. Everything was all set up. We definitely should make an exception for racists. Their views should be public knowledge so we can keep track of their racists opinions. Zoe1013 (talk) 13:15, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I personally think a great many people should be shown the door. I find that essay very well balanced in terms of warning against unfounded claims of racism or using it as a stick to beat people up, while at the same time pointing out that certain behaviors are - and should be - very much unwelcome here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:33, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales, thank you. I had a feeling you might agree with it, I just needed to be sure. Of course I do too :-) Guy (help! - typo?) 14:34, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: First they came for the Nazis... How about Zionists next? Did God really give them that land or the United Nations, are Palestinians in concentration camps? Is criticism of Israel antisemetic. Where do these WP:THOUGHTCRIME end? If “racists” and Nazis don’t use reliable sources or follow policy, they get banned. Why are there Laws against Holocaust denial, what are they afraid of? Why don’t we block Trump supporters? We should be skeptical and open minded not WP:BIGOT! Raquel Baranow (talk) 14:08, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I literally have no idea what you're rambling on about, but I'm sure you'll be welcome on twitter, where such "discussion" is widely accepted. We are here to build an encyclopedia, not to engage in mindless battlegrounding. UPDATE: Having reviewed your edit history, I can only thank you for stepping in to give a real-world example of the sort of thing that I'm talking about. You've been wasting good people's time for years and my view is that your indefinite ban should have been made permanent - years ago.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:55, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

That is rather harsh and unbecoming. PackMecEng (talk) 16:06, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think so. Review the edit history.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:12, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Please be more specific, I took a quick look and do not see anything requiring that kind of behavior. I am not terribly impressed by an unsupported "well they deserve it" kind of defense. PackMecEng (talk) 16:15, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Well here we go again, PackMecEng? Now you want Jimbo to waste his time on this editor as well? We all have better things that we can be doing if we want to improve our encyclopedia. Gandydancer (talk) 16:27, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

And yet, here you are. I don't know Grandydancer, I just hate seeing unsupported attacks on editors in good standing. You should too. PackMecEng (talk) 16:33, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, unsupported attacks on editors in good standing is not a good thing. However, pointing out that a longterm troublemaker continues to make trouble long term certainly is important. [1] is a fine example, and there are many more, of this user wasting people's time and not being here to build an encyclopedia.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:12, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

They're displaying (with prominence) an anti-semitic cartoon on their user page under the heading "A few favorite photos & graphs" so take that for what you will, and most people will probably take it to mean exactly what they are dogwhistling.--Jorm (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Jorm—I'm looking under "A few favorite photos & graphs" but I am not finding any "anti-semitic cartoon". What are you referring to? Bus stop (talk) 21:43, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop, I find it interesting that an editor who knows how to find Jimbo's talk page doesn't know how to view a page history before coming with a snipe. Jorm (talk) 21:47, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I can assure you that no "snipe" was intended and I haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about. Bus stop (talk) 21:56, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm less worried about outright Nazis, and more concerned—and disappointed—by the enablers who can be counted on to reflexively defend long-term disruptive bigots as "editors in good standing", and who instead focus their effort on tone-policing people who try to deal with them. There's a good illustration of that phenomenon in this thread. MastCell ^Talk 19:48, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

So you would take Nazis over people that disagree with the way you conduct yourself? Odd choice but there you go. PackMecEng (talk) 19:53, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Um, no. But that's essentially the choice you've made. In this case, you reflexively sided with an editor with a long history of disruption and thinly-veiled bigotry—whom you described as "an editor in good standing"—over the people who disagreed with her conduct. MastCell ^Talk 20:07, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Ha if you say so. Always a laugh with you. I get the feeling my original assessment was closer to the mark. PackMecEng (talk) 20:10, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales, yikes, a few clicks gets you to her website, which is full-on antisemitic. Guy (help! - typo?) 19:51, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Cullen328--I didn't know she was still around. I appreciate you doing what should have been done a while ago. Drmies (talk) 20:02, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

This is sad. Bob K31416 (talk) 03:42, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Apropos this discussion, if I could loosely paraphrase Alan Dershowitz, the key to defending free speech is defending the free speech of those with whom you disagree—defending free speech universally, across the board. Bus stop (talk) 07:18, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Except you know, that the Wikipedia is not the Government and thus not concerned with your bogus pleas to free speech. Valeince (talk) 19:49, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Correct Wikipedia is not the Government, it is a platform to build an encyclopedia. To do that effectively an open and honest debate must be possible. PackMecEng (talk) 19:59, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

If you find you time is spent well having an "open and honest debate" with racists and bigots, then fine with me. But it does not help with building this Wikipedia. Maybe on Conservopedia or something will be better served by that conversation. But here, there is no opinion worth considering from someone the subscribes to such hateful thinking.Valeince (talk) 23:37, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

I think you should read over and consider Masem's point just below. He puts it better than I probably could. PackMecEng (talk) 23:55, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

I have read it and disregarded as much as the last time Masen tried the "slippery slope" argument when it came to deleting userboxes that spouted bigoted ideals about same sex marriage. I don't need to listen to someone who likes to waste other's time defending white supremacists at length of every debate about it. Their opinions are widely known and are thankfully not in consensus with most other wikipedians. Valeince (talk) 00:01, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Ha. PackMecEng (talk) 00:02, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop, Wikipedia is not an experiment in free speech. People have a right to hold opinions, but there is no right to express any specific opinion here, and policy has long favoured the exclusion of those who come here specifically to promote repugnant views. Guy (help! - typo?) 15:28, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

This has potential to be misused, though obviously it hasn't to the best of my knowledge. Clearly, someone comes on and openly admits association with the KKK, we're probably going to remove that person quickly, even if that person appears to be editing in good faith. But what organizations or ideologies/political beliefs can be considers racist or discriminatory is very much a sliding scale and particularly in the current climate, that scale can slip more and more. For example, Qanon, which while not directly involved with racist is oft-connected to that. Would we immediately block someone that asserts they are a Qanon member but otherwise acting in good faith? One could read this to say yes. And then if Qanon is such a case, how about a 4chan/Anonymous member? I could go on, and its a slippery slope argument but the point I hope is there. There should be a line here: we're talking about expressing one's involvement with organizations or ideologies directly founded on racist behaviors, not those that may be somewhat associated with them. I said it in regards to the userbox thing but it is better that editors are reminded that we really don't care about your political or ideological beliefs and that we judge you more on your editing behavior and this should be the ideal, but this type of essay/approach can make it potentially an issue if you express those. --Masem (t) 20:30, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm all for banning nazis, but focusing on the contributors instead of the content is likely to cause people to lie about whether they are nazis while they try to edit in as much of their POV as they can. We need a review system to address all the different kinds of bias. We can train new statistical models to locate diffs which may introduce such bias (call them "OBES"), and use systems like DoubleCheck to review them the same way we review vandalism. 107.77.165.47 (talk) 21:48, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

How could OBES ("objective bias" is an oxymoron, by the way, if that is what it is supposed to mean) scores do any better than meta:Research:Detox sentiment or any other kind of sentiment analysis? Do you propose asking Google to train bias sentiment models with GPT-3 amounts of parallel cycles? 107.77.165.30 (talk) 19:10, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I suggest reading the policy WP:NPA, not just the title but the whole page. I think it's well written and has worthwhile advice. Bob K31416 (talk) 22:41, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

I have significant concerns about this "No Nazis" essay, most importantly who is going to be the arbiter of who is racist. If someone puts a swastika on their userpage, they should of course be banned immediately, but I suspect this essay will be applied more often to editors accused of bias, and then you really have to be careful. Wikipedia's five pillars and its conduct and content policies can already be applied to racists, but they are more in line with the Wikipedia spirit of having a minimal number of principles and guidelines. To me, this "No Nazis" essays reads too much like a manifesto and it could lead to some kind of reverse racism or some kind of reverse inquisition. I don't like the idea of collaborating with racist editors either, but with an anonymous online project you have to be more practical and less idealistic than you would with a real-world company. Efcharisto (talk) 19:38, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean when you say "reverse racism"? MastCell ^Talk 22:39, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, that is maybe not the best term. But I mean if you get too excited about applying the label racist, if you go after people who have said something that is somehow related to race and you just don't like it, it can become like a witch-hunt, and can become like the reverse of what racists have done to other groups of people in the past. Efcharisto (talk) 23:26, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

So you are afraid that you may be treated like minorities are treated?--Jorm (talk) 23:33, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Um, no. I am afraid that people who have done nothing wrong will be classified as racist and treated as if they have done something wrong. In analogy to people who have done nothing wrong being classified as minorities and treated as if they have done something wrong. Yes, I know it is not a perfect analogy. Efcharisto (talk) 23:59, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

" I am afraid that people who have done nothing wrong....[will be] treated as if they have done something wrong" really sounds like you're afraid of being treated like a minority. I find this position curious. Jorm (talk) 00:03, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Is being a minority bad? PackMecEng (talk) 02:08, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Surely you jest. In many places of the world, being part of a minority demographic can lead to one's marginalization from society, either due to laws or due to hate from other people. Sometimes, being a minority means fearing for your safety when you are just minding your own business. So, in that sense, yes, being a minority is bad.

Concerning Efcharisto, you should probably drop the dog whistle. It's quite loud and annoying. Isabelle ^🔔 02:49, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

You misunderstand my comment. What Jorm said make it sound like a negative to be a minority. PackMecEng (talk) 02:52, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I see Jorm's comment as calling out Efcharisto's usage of the "reverse racism" card, ie. being marginalized by the community for being who they are. But I'll drop this part of the discussion for now and just let Jorm explain what they meant, if they desire to do so. Isabelle ^🔔 03:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Pretty much what Isabelle Belato said. Whenever I see "reverse racism," I hear "I am afraid that a minority will treat me like minorities are treated." Jorm (talk) 03:10, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't know man, seems like a stretch. PackMecEng (talk) 03:17, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Isabelle Belato—Hi, nice to meet you. "Reverse racism", used by Efcharisto, might not have been the best term. I think a better term would be "misapplied racism". I would not presume to know why the terms "racism" and "racist" are tossed about so casually in 2020. But I think their definitions were much more clear at the time of the Civil rights movement and earlier. Therefore I would posit that the modern use of these terms may be slightly problematic. Bus stop (talk) 03:11, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I endorse Efcharisto's comment that "it can become like a witch-hunt". Whereas in the past the term "racist" had a sharp definition, in the present it is casually used and in my opinion often misapplied. Bus stop (talk) 02:52, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah so just for the record and for context here, and since this appeal to JW may have bearing on my own conduct despite this not being a noticeboard or anything like that (where I'd have been proactively notified...)—after a two-week-long, 90k-in-volume discussion about wording and details related to race on a particular article I observed, one time only, that User:Bus stop's edits and rhetorical behavior in that particular conversation formed a pattern of overt racism, in a very qualified comment explaining my basis for saying so.

After which, as if to prove my point, they went and voiced their disagreement with the "No Nazis" essay and then went through and in a series of edits changed every single race-related detail in the lede of the article in contravention of the talk page discussion and of the status quo ante of the lede (as they'd already done repeatedly with individual details in the course of the discussion).

So maybe there are places around here where this editor sees accusations of racism fired off promiscuously, but this is at least one bit of context for the former comment about such accusations being tossed about so casually in 2020 and the latter one endorsing fear of "witch-hunts" if there's too much opposition to racism: that their behavior was called racist once in a two-week-long 90k talk page discussion. (In which, by the way, they incessantly attempted to claim that Wikipedia merely identifying someone as white would be to accuse them of racism, but when presented repeatedly with a Fox News quote identifying subjects of the article as white would simply ignore it and refuse to comment on whether this meant that Fox News was declaring these persons to be racist—they weren't.)

Sorry this has spilled over here, JW, and I hope I'm not abusing the open-door policy to provide this contextual note. --▸₷truthious Ⓑandersnatch◂ 17:09, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Struthious Bandersnatch—when you say "extreme disparity of concern is itself overt and conscious racism" aren't you suggesting I'm a racist? Do I display "overt and conscious racism"? You are providing an example of how ridiculous language usage is in 2020. Had you made a similar statement at the time of the Civil rights movement such a statement would have real significance. But now its "meaning" is virtually nonexistent. The reason is obvious—I am not by any stretch of the imagination a "racist". This is emblematic of the current misuse of the term. Bus stop (talk) 17:32, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - I condemn racism, not unlike most have in this discussion, but I certainly don't endorse identity politics and the improper labeling of racism under the pretense that, per JzG, "most racists are right-wing". That is just plain misinformation, and it wrongfully implies that the left has clean hands, which couldn't be further from the truth. Jimbo are you agreeing with JzG that "most racists are right-wing"?

1. Half of All Racists Are Left Wing, Political Psychology, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Jun., 1984), pp. 227-235 (9 pages), Published By: International Society of Political Psychology
2. Slate
3. IPS, Racists can be left-wing too: Like to think of yourself as liberal? Don’t congratulate yourself too quickly – your attitude might actually be hampering Muslims.

Jimbo your response to JzG needs clarity regarding his comment that "most racists are right-wing". It appears to me that he believes you agree with that statement. Again, is that true? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:08, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Let me guess, you did a search for "liberal racism" and came up with these three articles? We can discount your first link because it's from 1984, which is hardly the current political climate. With respect to the other two, you're conflating the way Guy and Jimbo use "racism" in the posts above and the way those two articles are framing "racism".

Guy and Jimbo are defining racism as centered on individual acts, whereas the articles and anti-racists define it as our culture and a part of the way everyone in it is socialized. This latter way of thinking posits that everyone is racist because they've been socialized to be that way. Some of those racists will engage in overtly racist acts.

In this current political climate, in America, it's the far-right groups and members of the Republican party who are exhibiting the most racist acts. When Republicans and right-wing people elect a racist-in-chief (one who has historically engaged in racist acts, especially with respect to housing, and whose first instinct is to praise people who engage in racist acts), it's fair to say that they're A-OK with his racism.

Note that the only way Black lives will really matter is through identity politics. It's not a stretch to suggest that if you don't like identity politics, you're A-OK with the current state of white culture. You may denounce racist acts, but you're not denouncing our racist white culture. 2605:8D80:620:7BE9:E3E9:845:B5E3:5F84 (talk) 03:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Did you forget to login? PackMecEng (talk) 03:25, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

2605:8D80:620:7BE9:E3E9:845:B5E3:5F84—you say "Note that the only way Black lives will really matter is through identity politics." Why do you feel that "identity politics" is exceptionally important? Bus stop (talk) 03:39, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

"Yet this advisory body of well-meaning people is plagued by polarizing disagreements about the nature of anti-racism that undermine its ability to effect change." - Anti-racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart, The Atlantic, highly recommended read. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 10:12, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I did not forget to log in. The Atlantic article doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the word "racist" was being used in two different ways above. Why do you highly recommend reading the Atlantic article?

Identity politics put the problems and issues related to historical and ongoing oppression of, in this case, Black people at the forefront. It names those problems and seeks to bring attention to them as a prelude to fixing them. I don't see how a problem can be fixed without identifying it first, which is why I say that identity politics are important. 2605:8D80:620:7BE9:3628:F101:4803:208C (talk) 15:19, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, feel free to point out any left-wing users who are advancing racist content, I will cheerfully wield the banhammer.

You should also be careful of using terms like "identity politics" - this term is generally used as a way to minimise the validity of actions to protect people against discrimination. The most successful example of identity politics in US history was probably the Civil Rights movement - most people agree that was a good thing, and the ones who don't have a tendency to turn out to be racists.

The problem in current US politics is very simple: any policy that bans racist, Islamophobic or any other form of hateful invective, tends to catch prominent right-wing figures. The fact that most of the rabble-rousing bigots are conservative is a problem of modern day conservatism, not some kind of sinister plot to silence "conservative voices". Can you imagine Reagan supporting Alex Jones, Patriot Prayer or the Proud Boys? Guy (help! - typo?) 15:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

The problem with that is the identity politics today is not the same as the civil rights movement, you seem to be conflating them as if they were the same. It would be like that old like "well the KKK was a democrat organization" maybe at one time but things change. No one is arguing the civil rights movement wasn't a good thing, that is a straw man argument. What people are saying is terms like racist, bigot, homophobe, and nazi are thrown around so much as to start losing their meaning. Which is a huge disservice to actual marginalized people. The people over using and misusing those terms are just as bad as the people that those terms fit from what I can tell. Honestly I get tired of old white guys feeling the need to protect people like me, like I cannot take care of my god damn self. PackMecEng (talk) 16:25, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng, it depends who you ask. The people who I encounter using the term tend to be trying to frame someone else's edits as advancing a non-neutral POV, as if there is no difference between, say, racial equality and black supremacy. I don't often see anyone use the term identity politics when discussing the actual issues, it tends to come more from the peanut gallery. Guy (help! - typo?) 16:35, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Guy, you write: "terms like "identity politics"... is generally used as a way to minimise the validity of actions to protect people against discrimination." Very true. The same can be said about Trump's anti-PC campaign, which has become a defining characteristic of Trump supporters. For them it is now okay to be openly racist again. Ridiculing opposition to racism as "political correctness" is used as a method to undermine all the progress against racism made over the last 70 or so years. It trivializes the importance of not using racist terms, practices, and thinking as mere "political correctness." No, those are seriously important changes that are necessary for a society to move away from racism and toward a more just society. Trump has succeeded in reviving open racism and violence, and he encourages it. His dog whistle politics is dangerous.

Racism is a defining factor of the extreme right-wing/fascists/Nazis. Is it possible to be left-wing and harbor racist views? To a limited degree, that is certainly possible, but not openly or blatantly. Becoming an active anti-racist is a process, one which is a defining aspect of left-wing ideology, not even remotely part of right-wing ideology. -- Valjean (talk) 16:29, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Valjean, it's certainly possible to be on the political left and be comfortable with racism when it advantages you (e.g. through redlining). But I have never seen a leftist use phrases like "go back where you came from". Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I think that this kind of overt racism, rather than Peterson-style fondness for maintenance of historical privilege, is much more associated with the far right, as you say. Guy (help! - typo?) 16:38, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

It isn't really relevant to anything, but I just wanted to chime in here to say that left-wing racism is not only possible, it is an actual thing. Here in the UK, there is a serious problem on the far-left with anti-semitism.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:49, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Any use of a one dimensional "left-right" political spectrum, even if only in analogy from which inferences are drawn, is only marginally better than deducing from a full-blown contradiction, because race and class are at least partially orthogonal. Many people are familiar with the libertarian "political compass," but its authoritarianism axis doesn't really correspond to race, while its economic axis does correspond at least partially to class. That means that there are at least three dimensions of political opinion. The total number of dimensions is probably less, but perhaps not as much less as almost everyone thinks, than the total number of issues upon which people disagree. There is a way out: anchor theory. 107.77.165.30 (talk) 19:10, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Adding to that and I touched on it above, was people feeling the need to try and protect me because of my background. Like without their help I could not make it because you know I'm just a woman or just an immigrant or Korean or in a STEM field. BS like that taints my accomplishments. Heck I have run huge engineering departments for giant defense contractors with close to a hundred degreed engineers under me and I would still get the you know she only got there because of such and such. It is infuriating. PackMecEng (talk) 16:59, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Guy—we've come a long way from the language usage applicable at for instance the time of the Civil rights movement. This essay has the potential to be used like the Salem Witch Trials—point a finger of accusation and get your fellow editor blocked or banned. It is the slippery slope nature of the current broad application of the term "racism" to situations where it would not have been applied in the past that should concern us. Bus stop (talk) 16:36, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop, on the other hand, when was the last time we cited “no Nazis” and a genuinely productive editor said “stop attacking me personally”? Nazis are bad. That’s just a fact. Guy (help! - typo?) 16:47, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, when has that essay every been brought up and a thoughtful and productive conversation ensued? I cannot think of any. PackMecEng (talk) 17:00, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

We're here to build a credible unbiased encyclopedia according to the policies and guidelines, not to hunt Nazis, racists, etc. If an editor is to be blocked, it's because the editor is impeding the project. If an editor is a Nazi and makes useful contributions, that's a good thing. But if he harms the encyclopedia with disruption and edits contrary to policy, then block him. I can't imagine a banner on a Wikipedia user's page that says, "This user has been indefinitely blocked for being a Nazi." Bob K31416 (talk) 17:16, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I've lost the capacity to be shocked by anything said on this page, but congrats on coming close. Look, no reputable, credible project would ever accept neo-Nazis as employees or volunteers, no matter their skill set. So the idea that we should welcome and appreciate neo-Nazi editors and bigots, as long as they "make useful contributions", is bizarre. We don't expect editors to have "civil" collaborations with people who don't accept their right to exist, or their basic humanity—that would make a mockery of any adult definition of "civility". It might be time to take your moral compass in for a checkup. MastCell ^Talk 17:37, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng (talk) 17:51, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

If Wikipedia existed in 1933 and there were Nazis writing Wikipedia articles about their racist beliefs, then maybe the rest of the world would have been wiser to their sinister plans and history would have been different. Efcharisto (talk) 17:55, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

MastCell, Unfortunately, your message seems to be almost entirely a personal attack. However, I did see one point worth considering re, "...'civil' collaborations with people who don't accept their right to exist...". This brings to mind the Israeli and Palestinian editors of articles about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Bob K31416 (talk) 18:27, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Editors on Israeli-Palestinian articles may hold opinions about the governance of a specific disputed territory, but I disagree with your equation of those viewpoints with Naziism. (There have historically been a small number of extremist editors in the topic area, many of whom have been banned specifically for their extremism). More to the point, you won't tolerate even the mild discomfort of having your viewpoint questioned, without invoking "personal attacks"—yet you expect Jewish and non-White editors to tolerate and accept KKK members and neo-Nazis as colleagues here. That seems problematic to me. MastCell ^Talk 19:12, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia club

Hi Jimbo, I was thinking of making a wikipedia club at my high school where me and other aspiring wikipedians collaborate and help each other out. Would you allow me to make the club and do you have any suggestions? Best regards, Dan the Animator 22:52, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi that sounds great! It isn't up to me personally to grant permission for anything, though. I recommend this route for you: [2].--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:16, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Comment: Wikipedia club in high school? I rather spend two years in high school than spend four years in high school. Wikipedia is beyond cooler than high school. I wouldn’t want to mix Wikipedia with high school. Wikipedia is knowledge for everyone. School doesn’t do that. They treat kids like they are in a factory. Everyone has to learn in a specific way. If you learn too much, they aren’t happy. If you learn too little, you are mixed with the disabled kids in separate classrooms. Zoe1013 (talk) 02:27, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	here you go Ljcool2006 (talk) 03:57, 8 October 2020 (UTC)