Talk:Scotland: Difference between revisions

Audio Track Doesn’t Say “Scotland”

Yeah, I'm really confused isn't the audio track in the header of this article, supposed to be a pronunciation guide for the word "Scotland"? But for some reason it says "Uhvupa". Am I missing something or do we need to re-record it? DSQ (talk) 11:18, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

The audio is for "Alba", not "Scotland". JaggedHamster (talk) 11:36, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Is it? Because that's not how you pronounce the word Alba, that would be "Al-ah-ba" or "Al-ah-pa".

Even if it was the correct pronunciation, which it definitely is not, the audio file link should not be next to the word "Scotland" surely? It should be moved to be next to the word Alba.

Because the file is in the header multiple non English Wikipedia pages used this audio file as an example of how to say the word Scotland. That's how I discovered it by finding it on the Japanese language Wikipedia page スコットランド. DSQ (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

It does sound like it's supposed to say Alba, but it is a shocking rendition. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 19:04, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Okay it’s good to know it’s not just me! Would anyone be opposed to my changing it? DSQ (talk) 08:23, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Go for it. I definitely wasn't claiming it was a good pronunciation of Alba, just explaining the confusion. JaggedHamster (talk) 08:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Neither the sound file nor the IPA seem to be present in the current version, presumbaly swept away in the to-ing and fro-ing of the last few weeks.

If I understand that your intention is to produce a new sound file of the pronunciation of Alba, how is your Gaelic? Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:54, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

...had missed from the above that you're aware it's not as someone uninformed might render it from English language spelling conventions. Out of idle curiosity I did a web search for pronunciation examples and there are some shockers. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:03, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't my intention to record a new version unfortunately as I think my accent isn't ready to represent our country just yet. I just felt it was imperative that the recording be removed. DSQ (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC) DSQ (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Lead

Hi,

Much work has been done by myself and other users to improve this article, and I have nominated it for a geography and places good article as I believe the article to be unto the standard of a good article since the last review which delisted the article in 2019. At a review of the articles good status in January 2019, it was flagged about the lack of guidance in following the "well written" criteria of a good article, it was noted in the review ; A good introduction, giving name of the country, location in the world"

Fails in the first sentence - "Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom." Apart from the ugly grammar it should be noted that other country articles do notbegin, eg:

• Aruba is a country that is part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. (Actual lead sentence as of 2/1: Aruba is a 33-kilometre (21 mi)-long island of the Lesser Antilles in the southern Caribbean Sea, 27 km (17 mi) north of the Paraguaná Peninsula, Falcón State, Venezuela.)
• Denmark is a state that is part of the European Union. (Actual lead sentence as of 2/1: The Kingdom of Denmark, commonly known as Denmark, is a country in the Scandinavian region of northern Europe.)
• Hong Kong is a state that is part of the People's Republic of China. (Actual lead sentence as of 2/1: Hong Kong, officially the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, is a territory located on China's south coast on the Pearl River Delta, bordering Guangdong province to the north and facing the South China Sea to the east, west and south.)

It further explained: Note that the Scotland article comes under the auspices of WikiProject:Countries, which states explicitly that "The article should start with a good introduction, giving name of the country, location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like".

I therefore changed this in order to reflect the pending changes to bring the article back up to good article status, by re-wording the lead to read "Scotland is a country in northwest Europe which is part of the United Kingdom...." but see this has been reverted by another user. What is everyone's thoughts on this change? Goodreg3 (talk) 20:17, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm happy with the current wording of the lead paragraph. It states that Scotland is part of the UK, primarily located on Great Britain, borders England to the south-west, and is surrounded by seas on its other sides. We could explicitly state that it's in north-west Europe – I'm not against the idea – but I would also expect the current information to give the average reader a good idea of Scotland's location.

To add some further examples:

• England is a country that is part of the United Kingdom.
• Wales is a country that is part of the United Kingdom.
• Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom in the north-east of the island of Ireland that is variously described as a country, province or region.
• Catalonia is an autonomous community of Spain, designated as a nationality by its Statute of Autonomy.
• The Faroe or Faeroe Islands are an archipelago in the North Atlantic Ocean and an autonomous territory of the Kingdom of Denmark.
• Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is an autonomous region of Italy, located in the northern part of the country.

I wouldn't say there's a firm consensus over what exactly the lead sentence should include. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:42, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The firm consensus you seek over what exactly the lead sentence should include is determined under the auspices of WikiProject:Countries, which states explicitly that "The article should start with a good introduction, giving name of the country, location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like", which I had mentioned above. Indeed, I would advocate for the location of all countries including that of England, Wales and Northern Ireland to be included in their lead paragraphs, as this is geographically where they are located. Saying that Scotland is primarily located on the island of Great Britain is not really explaining where it is, it is explaining it is located on the island of Great Britain, in which users would then need to navigate to the British Isles article to find out geographically where the British Isles is located in the world. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "but I would also expect the current information to give the average reader a good idea of Scotland's location", isn't this exactly what adding the fact that Scotland is "located in northwest Europe and is part of the United Kingdom..." is about? Goodreg3 (talk) 21:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, your examples of Catalonia and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol are not countries, they are regions. Scotland, and indeed, Wales, Northern Ireland and England, are countries and not regions, therefore, they fall under the auspices of WikiProject Countries and the template example of the lead section. Goodreg3 (talk) 21:52, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Scotland's location is described in relation to the UK, Great Britain, England, the North Sea, the Atlantic Ocean, and the Irish Sea. That's a good description of its location, in my opinion. Scotland is an autonomous region of the UK in a similar way to Catalonia within Spain and Trentino-Alto within Italy, they're fair comparisons. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:59, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Disagree on that one, it does not set out in plain English where exactly in the world Scotland is located. Also, you are wrong on that one, Scotland is not legally referred to as an autonomous region of the UK, nor is England or Wales, or even Northern Ireland, despite its complexity. See this example from the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, (https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20080909013512/http:/www.number10.gov.uk/Page823), who they themselves refer to as all four as countries, not autonomous regions. Goodreg3 (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, regardless of your own personal beliefs as to whether Scotland is a country or autonomous region of the UK, it still falls under the auspices of WikiProject Countries whereas Catalonia does not, and as such, the article should be following the agreed guidance and templates on such matters. Goodreg3 (talk) 22:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Scotland is a country and an autonomous region, which is why it's appropriate to compare it to similar autonomous regions. I disagree with your interpretation of the WikiProject Countries guidance, but I'm not opposed to adding an explicit mention of Scotland's position within Europe. The best thing to do is to wait and see if a consensus develops. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

It's status as a country is much stronger than its status as an autonomous region. Catalonia, never having been an independent country like Scotland, has always been a region of Spain and as such has always commonly been referred to as such. You don't hear many people referring to Scotland, Wales, England or even Northern Ireland as a "region of the UK". You might disagree with my reference to the guidance over at WikiProject Countries, but the fact remains that is indeed the agreed set guidance set out for articles which are under the Countries WikiProject area. Goodreg3 (talk) 22:33, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I will await the result of impending consensus. You know, sometimes being part of the Wikipedia community infuriates me and makes me feel physically sick. Here we are omitting the simple fact that Scotland is located in northwest Europe, all because it is part of the United Kingdom and located on the British Isles. We are completely ignoring the fact that this is clearly where Scotland is located, and for what? Just because England and Wales doesn't mention the fact that they are in northwest Europe either? The inclusion of geographical location of Scotland in terms of the world map will greatly increase its chance of being re-granted good article status, but instead, we are reverting the inclusion of the mention of Scotland being located in NW Europe in order to keep it consistent with the England and Wales article. It's a sad day, really... Goodreg3 (talk) 22:46, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

As I've said, I don't oppose to adding Scotland's position in Europe if that's the consensus, I just don't think it's essential to the lead. You could add it now and I wouldn't object. At the same time, I do think the current format works well, as it contextualises Scotland within the UK before moving on to its wider location.

My understanding of WP:WPCTEMPLATE is that country leads should contain all of the information mentioned in the guideline, not that the lead must rigidly follow the order in which they are listed or the example format. It does state at the top of the guideline: "This structure is advisory only, and should not be enforced against the wishes of those actually working on the article in question." A.D.Hope (talk) 23:16, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with the current wording. DankJae 23:43, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'll specifiy further, fine with "Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom." It then goes to state it is the northern part of Great Britain in the next sentence so stating its location. But mainly this lead has to be consistent with Wales and England. This lead has been stable. A wider discussion is needed if changed for consistency with other articles, with me only open to following the format of Northern Ireland if required. Plus Wales and England have these leads and are good articles, so did not negatively impact them. DankJae 23:54, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

In this case, it was found to have negatively impacted Scotland's good article status, that is the point. This was not my point of view, but the view point of the reviewer back in 2019 when the article was delisted. Honestly, I don't have any issues with the current lead either, but it does not acknowledge Scotland's geographical location in the world which is surely mandatory for location related articles. Yes, it is also consistent with the Wales and England articles (not sure it necessary "has" to be consistent, but hey...), but does that mean we should not be beginning a separate discussion on those articles to include geographical location to benefit readers? As, IMO, merely stating that Scotland is a part of the British Isles is not specifying where precisely it is located in layman's terms, rather, it is only indicating that it is part of an island. Goodreg3 (talk) 00:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, not sure what you are suggesting re Northern Ireland, but wished to express my strong disapproval of any suggestion to change either the leads in England, Scotland or Wales to similar wording of the Northern Ireland article such as "part of the United Kingdom, variously described as...". Clearly, Northern Ireland is a more complex issue, and for that reason, is not commonly referred to as a country in the way that England, Wales and Scotland is. Goodreg3 (talk) 00:48, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Referring to the "located on" bit, obviously not the "variously described". DankJae 02:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

What about?

Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom, mainly located on the northern part of the island of Great Britain, in north-western Europe.

This would have to ideally be carried to Wales and England. As, well, it would be less likely to be stable if not as people will try and make it consistent either side.

My main concern is the switching around from stating it is part of the UK first to that it is a European country first, considering many of those that wish Scotland be disassociated with the UK want to emphasise it as a European country rather than part of the UK. But as it remains part of the UK for now, it is best for that to be stated first, until the constitutional situation changes. DankJae 03:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. The most important international characteristic should come first, which is that England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are the four countries that comprise the sovereign state of the United Kingdom. If desired northwestern or western Europe can be mentioned later in the lead, after Scotland's position in Great Britain or the British Isles. We don't normally or at any rate shouldn't omit inbetween geographies. In any case there's a graphic showing Scotland's position in Europe in the infobox, which for many may well be more informative than a written description. Rupples (talk) 19:28, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I have no objection to the proposed lead sentence, likewise, I have no objection to retaining the status quo. I do, however, feel that this is being overcomplicated and it really should not matter whether it reads Scotland is a country in northwest Europe that is part of the United Kingdom or Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom, mainly located on the northern part of the island of Great Britain, in north-western Europe. Both give prominence to the fact that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, and that hasn't been disputed either by my edit including the geographical location before the fact that Scotland is a country part of the United Kingdom. Goodreg3 (talk) 22:11, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Still prioritisation can display a order of preference or what is the most important aspect, the first can give the impression "Scotland is a European country that, secondly, is part of the UK", while the second states "Scotland is a UK country, secondly, on an island in Europe". If readers see "country in Europe" first, akin to Republic of Ireland or Belgium, then they'll associate it with those, and as primarily a "European country", which is not entirely correct for now. DankJae 22:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

This helpful article helped me understand the difference between a Country, State and Nation. I note the confusion of different interpretations of each word. However I would argue the introduction of this article should read "Scotland is a nation that is part of the United Kingdom". This would better agree with the wiki definitions of Country, Nation and State (polity). Ssojjoss (talk) 19:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Lead reversion to stable version

Just to be clear, my last reversion to the lead paragraph is intended to return it to a stable state while discussion is ongoing rather than to impose my own preferences. I have no intention of getting into an edit war, as I hope my engagement with the discussion here demonstrates. A.D.Hope (talk) 00:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to be clear - I also intend not to engage in an edit war, but merely trying to gain some consensus here amongst contributors and readers alike in order to move forward and have the article in the strongest position going forward for resubmission as a good article. Goodreg3 (talk) 00:49, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Of course. I didn't think you were engaging in an edit war, I just wanted to explain my last edit and give you a chance to object to it if you wanted. I totally understand you wanting to get the article in good shape for the GA review, and I admire you for taking on a topic as big as Scotland! A.D.Hope (talk) 00:58, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

A note that this reversion of an adjustment to the lead was not an endorsement of the preceding version, containing as it did the edits under discussion above. I agree with the reversion to the stable version before this edit, in terms of allowing discussion to take place but also because the changes made an unwieldy sentence. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Naturally. Will await the result of any constructive consensus. Goodreg3 (talk) 01:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The longstanding status quo for the lead? should remain, as it was the result of a hard-fought consensus (I was a part of those old discussions) both 'here' & at the intros to England, Wales & Scotland. Furthermore, the British prime minister should not be included in the infobox of this page 'or' the infoboxes at England, Wales & Northern Ireland. PS - For example: We don't include the US president in the infoboxes of US states. Nor do we include the Canadian prime minister in the infoboxes of Canadian provinces & territories. GoodDay (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I am happy to vote in favour of retaining the current status quo of the lead sentence to establish some much needed stability on the article. Also, in agreement with the points re British Prime Minister being included on the page for the exact same reasons you have mentioned. A quick search has not found the US President mentioned or photograph included of in articles such as California and Florida, and similarly, the Canadian PM is not included in articles such as Nova Scotia or Quebec. Goodreg3 (talk) 21:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Unless it's been changed since GoodDay made their comment, the infobox doesn't mention the British prime minister. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:28, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

No it does not, but there was attempts made a few days ago to include Sunak in the Government and politics section alongside the Monarch and First Minister which I will always insist is not relevant on an article about a country with its own level of devolved government, just in the same way I mentioned above that articles such as Quebec, Queensland and New South Wales do not feature the PM of their respective sovereign states. Goodreg3 (talk) 21:48, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Sunak's more relevant than Shona Robison, though... Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that the lead that was there had been agreed by consensus.

lead with changes

Scotland (Scots: Scotland; Scottish Gaelic: Alba) is a country that is part of the United Kingdom and covers the northern part of the island of Great Britain. Scotland shares a land border with England to the south and is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean to the north and west, the North Sea to the north-east and east, and the Irish Sea to the south. Edinburgh is the capital and Glasgow is the largest of the cities of Scotland.

Information I have removed can be found in the infobox and / or the geography section where more detail is provided. The changes I am suggesting would make the article lead more succinct and easy to read.

although I agree with having important information the article, the current lead looks cluttered and too long as per MOS:LEADLENGTH. It looks like everything is being crammed into the lead which is suppose to be short and to the point.ChefBear01 (talk) 06:01, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2024

I suggest adding a distinct section within the History of Scotland section that deals with Scotland's involvement in the British Empire. MiloThatch 98 (talk) 23:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. 💜  melecie  talk - 01:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

number of Inhabitants according to 2022 census is 5,439,842 but other nummers are mentioned here as well 2A02:A46A:9576:0:C59F:11CF:827E:439F (talk) 14:45, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2024

Change the Secretary of State from Alister Jack to Ian Murray Wardenofsomething (talk) 23:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 06:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Constituent country

I personally think the first line "Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom." should be changed to "Scotland is a constituent country that is part of the United Kingdom". I understand that a constituent country is just a type of country, although when someone hears the word country they wouldn't think of a constituent country. I do think that the first line of the article is linked well considering "country" leads to the actual page of the constituent countries that make up the United Kingdom, although I think it'd be better to call Scotland a constituent country, as not only is it more specific but it is also the correct name that it should be given.

Scotland shouldn't be called just a country, as it is already part of a country (United Kingdom). To any typical person it wouldn't make much sense for four countries to be part of one country, that'd more be a continent.

It doesn't hurt anyone to call it a constituent country as it doesn't change the meaning of the first line, nor does it change the truth, rather, it's even more correct, stating the type of country Scotland actually is.

Wordings like these tend to lead people to mistakes, causing many people to just call nations such as Scotland "a country inside a country" without actually knowing the difference between the status of Scotland and the status of another country such as Russia. They are not the same thing, so they shouldn't be called the same thing.

Thank you, Setergh (talk) 16:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

This is all covered by the first item in the FAQ on this page. JaggedHamster (talk) 19:28, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

CoA of Scotland

Is that the coat of arms of Scotland, or the coat of arms of the United Kingdom in Scotland? Pur 0 0 (talk) 17:05, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

They're the arms of dominion of the King in right of Scotland. Dgp4004 (talk) 17:45, 24 August 2024 (UTC)