Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christian Metal

Welcome to the discussion page of the Christian Metal WikiProject!
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To start a new discussion section, please click here Proposed WikiProjects merger? I've noticed that there are several independent WikiProjects related to Christian music all with very small memberships (or at least only a few active participants). I would like to propose to the WikiProject the possible merger of these projects into one WikiProject (probably entitled Christian music WikiProject with task forces for each genre (Contemporary Christian music, Southern Gospel, urban contemporary gospel, etc.). The other option is to make Christian music as a whole a task force under the Christianity Wikiproject. Please share your thoughts on this issue on the discussion page on the Christian music portal. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 19:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC) Update Looks like we have a consensus from the major project editors. I took information and formats from the four main pages to start the project. It's located at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian music. I haven't done categories and Task Force Pages yet because I figured there would be discussion needed. Please feel free to edit what's been done as you all see fit. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 19:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC) Recomendation: I think that the Grammy Nominated Christian Metal albums should be worked on soon The Grammy Award nominations were announced on December 6, 2007 for Best Rock or Rap Gospel Album. These included the Christian Metal related albums/groups: The Reckoning (album) by Pillar (band) Comatose (album) by Skillet (band) I recommend that these articles be brought up to "B" or "GA" status as soon as possible. The winner will be announced February 10, 2008, and people will be looking at these articles a lot (also need to watch out for vandalism). Thanks Antmusic (talk) 22:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC) Source Question NOTE: I'm posting this on both WikiProject Christian music and WikiProject Christian Metal to get some help on this subject. I'm not going to give out a link for my site but I started using the mediawiki software to start my own Christian Music Wiki with my own criteria and my own rules. So when quoting and getting info I have different standards then this wiki. So here's the question, for this wiki what can I do with unsourced information? Let's be honest a lot of things have happened in Christian music that are not documented or come from pages that some people on this wikipedia would call into question. For example I have tapes of Lightmusic and CCMTV when they were on the air in my area. Lightmusic heavily promoted DC Talk's Free at Last the movie. Can I just add this info without having a source? Again I want to help out but can I add this info without being able to really show the source? What about what Toby Mac said at Creation Festival about their (DC Talk) mainstream push? I'm not sure this was ever documented in any magazine or online. I also used to do my own sort of archiving of Christian music in the 90's. I have an e-mail from Bride explaining that they were e-mail bombed by Dial the Truth Ministries for objecting to Bride being on their page. I believe I saved the diary of Keith Bannister of Mortification talking about how Steve Rowe was doing with cancer. I think I even saved the pages dealing with Stryper and the mexican incident. I even got to talk to people like Rod Feltman of Sardonyx who told me why they never signed a contract. Some of these things I know are documented in magazines and online but overall I find info on the net lacking information on Christian Music, hence why I have my own wiki and want to help out here. But can I add these things without much controversy here? Do you think I would have to have some way of proving what I know? I really need some input because I don't want to start a big controversy here after editing a couple of pages. I would like to work with the community and do things the right way. Any feedback is appreciated.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 16:39, 9 January 2008 (UTC) Well, citing stuff that has not been published in reliable publications is pretty much original research, which is not allowed here. Of course it is possible to write about things that has not been published, but one would have to be really, really clever to not get caught for that. If I'm not mistaken, one can cite TV shows as sources but that is very rare and then the reference info should be very accurate. Your sources from diaries to personal discussions sound interesting but I'm afraid you can not cite them unless you or someone else publish the info in a book on a huge publisher or a very reliable website. Then again, one should think whether every info really has to be published (such as the details of Steve Rowe's cancer and Stryper's Mexican festival scandal). Seriously, not everything has to be published. I'm personally pretty frustrated that no one has written an extensive history about Christian metal; there are only books about Christian rock and CCM that mention some bands. In an ideal situation the Christian metal history would not have to be written separately from secular history, but it is sad that only the most significant bands such as Stryper get to be included in secular metal history books, and the rest are ignored as if they did not accomplish anything. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 21:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC) Thanks for the response and good feedback. I don't take offense. And I'm with you and understand your frustrations. I have a friend who can't stand Stryper because he felt they got too much attention. I would like to put out some sort of book myself someday on the history of the industry from all aspects. But it's a dream at this point. My only problem with what you say is just a frustration. Sure there's HM, of which I have almost every issue from 1989 up till 1998, but there are so many untold stories and truths out there and I wish I could add them here. That's why I started my site so I could have more freedom. Again thanks for the info.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC) Yes, Wikipedia can be really limiting in that sense. It's usually quite difficult to write so convincing stuff that no one asks for its sources. That also depends on how underground the subject is (i.e. how many know anything about it) or how controversial is the content. A lot of the Christian Metal Project's articles such as Antestor used to be unreferenced and contain quotations that weren't backed up. That Antestor article stayed that way almost a half year because it was well-written, until it got tagged as unreferenced and someone had to rewrite the whole thing citing sources. I wish I had some HM Magazines from the 1990s so that I could include more reliable sources for the Christian metal article, as currently some of the sources contain fansites that the administrators consider poor and untrustworthy. By the way, since you've subscribed to HM for almost a decade and obviously know more about the scene than some of us, did you notice anything in the Christian metal article that lacks some notable info, bands, events, or contains biased content? I'm asking because there has been some quarrels over subjects such as the term "white metal" or whether the 1980s of Christian metal was officially called the "golden era." You don't have to answer if you're too busy to read the article. Good luck on your site.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 00:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC) Well if you want I could do some looking and bring up things on individual talk pages. To answer your questions. White Metal was more important, from what I can remember, in other regions. I remember Horde(Jayson Sherlock) used the term "Un-Black." The arguement I heard on it and read came from the use of the term and the fact that it existed. There are those in the mainstream (those that listen to non-christian metal) who believe Christian metal is an abomination because it talks about good things and is not about rebellion. They claim that metal can't be used for good. That will always exist. I went through an extensive "debate" on Guitar Hero foruma while back about the subject of adding some Christian music to the game and I heard and saw almost most of the basic arguements against the style there. As far as Golden Era, to be honest, I never heard the term till recently. I was reading some info on the HM site and the term came up in a Guy Ritter interview. It's kind of cool so I don't see a problem with using the term but it is a new term. And also it is very apparent it's a fan made term. Here's a link to the interview with Guy if you want to some info on the subject from a guy in that period of music - [1] This is opinion and take it as such. Starting with Jerusalem, who I consider the beginning of Christian metal, till 1995 was a special time in Christian Music. Especially if you liked heavier acts. I think people get confused about what Styper did. They broke down the door and taboo on a music speaking an overtly Christian message in the mainstream and being a success, and opened the door for many acts and financing. But they didn't start the genre in Christian Music. Anyways I really like talking about the subject and offering what help I can, so please ask away. I will try my best to help out. And I'm not afraid to admit I don't know everything. OfficialDoughboy (talk) 13:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC) Importance and new talk page I created a new importance parameter for the {{christianmetal}} template. I also reformatted the talk page after WT:HMM and colours from WP:CMM, maybe we should have a different colour for the talk page? I also archived some stuff. – Jerryteps 05:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC) I undid it because of a category error i'll try to get a new version up as soon asap. – Jerryteps 05:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC) I fixed it, I should of used {{#if:{{class|}} instead of {{#ifeq:{{class|}}, i'll change it over in a sec once I fixed some minor details with it. – Jerryteps 05:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC) I encountered yet another bug and it'll probably be a few days before the final version is fixed. (unless I get to stay on the internet for longer o_0) – Jerryteps 03:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC) There... I'm pretty sure it's fine now. – Jerryteps 03:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC) Importance standard; Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian Metal/Assessment#Importance scale. We should me the portal if that's what everyone wants? Because if we're not going to make it we should remove stuff about it on the main page. But I'd be willing to make it if people are willing to maintain it and change featured stuff every week. But the thing that bothers me is would we be aloud to in the first place? – Jerryteps 04:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC) Good questions. I don't know what's Wikipedia's line on portals, but I would think it's ok since Christian metal covers a pretty huge phenomenon. Too bad many Christian metal project members are busy now. Even I don't have too much time to edit here, but I could maintain and update the portal few times a month maybe. Would the portal be difficult to make? By the way, great work on the importance scale thing, I'll try to assess some stuff when I have time. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 13:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC) I'll try to get a draft version up soon. I just read what you said about christian metal being big and your right, Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian music has only 54 articles in it's scope and we have 302. I'll be able to update it fairly often since I have fair bit of free time on my hands, well now I do... But i'll do my best to update the page every week. I just encounted an error while writing this. If an article has {{christianmetal|class=}} on it will show up in Category:Unassessed Christian Metal articles but if it has {{christianmetal}} on it it wont show up... I'll try to correct the problem as soon as possible. – Jerryteps 02:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC) There fixed it. I can rate every band that is unknown importance because I don't know of most of those bands so I couldn't say if they were importance or not. But mostly they are low importance but I don't want to make a mistake and rate them low importance. Oh did you notice the new talk page? – Jerryteps 02:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC) It is also possible to use a bot to rate the most of the articles for low importance, and then fix the rest manually afterwards. Not sure how to do that but the members of wikiproject album do that a lot. Yeah the new talk page is great. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 19:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC) Good idea. – Jerryteps 03:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC) New portal I made the Portal:Christian metal every now and then people are going to need to update it and add to it. – Jerryteps 05:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC) What bands does everyone listen to? I listen to (in no specific order); Dimmu Borgir, Paramaecium, Emperor, As I Lay Dying, Bring Me the Horizon, The Showdown + alot of other minor bands. – Jerryteps 10:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC) Although the portal is under construction it looks great. I'll try to update it when possible or when I have time. I added a portal link to the main article. Too bad very there are very few free pics on Christian metal bands ub Commons, so for now we probably can't make a featured picture section for the portal. By the way, the main article lacks a sample for the power metal section. Should it be something by Seventh Avenue or Narnia or what? --Azure Shrieker (talk) 13:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC) I would say Narnia but it depends on what song you can get. If you can try and get a good song that displays true power metal. – Jerryteps 02:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC) There is also no music sample for doom metal, just gothic metal, what software do you use to cut a songs length down? I could get the begining from "The Unnatural Conception in Two Parts: The Birth and Massacre of the Innocents" or "Injudical" both by Paramaecium, the begining to "In Two Parts" has alot of doom in it but "Injudical"'s begining is heavier but faster so it's not as good a doom metal song. I own Exhumed of the Earth. I'll listen through the album again and find a good part to cut. – Jerryteps 02:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC) Hmm, "Haemorrhage of Hatred" in my opinion feels the more "doomy" than the others. – Jerryteps 03:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC) A doom metal sample from Exhumed of the Earth would be great. There's more discussion about the samples on Talk:Christian metal but you can take a look at WP:Music samples. According to that page, the samples should be cut down with Audacity for zero quality 30 sec ogg vorbis format. One gets better quality samples if they are edited from WAV files but I made a couple of the samples from plain mp3 files. As for Narnia samples, how about "Living Water" from Long Live the King since the band plays that song in many of their concerts? Also "The Witch and the Lion" or "Shelter Through Pain" would also be fine choises since I've heard many people like those particular songs.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 10:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC) Try and see if you can extract a sample that displays power metal and sounds good, because you can't just extract a sample that sounds good but doesn't illustrate the sub-genre. I'll see if I can upload a song from Exhumed of the Earth later today. – Jerryteps 00:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC) I uploaded a sample from Paramaecium. – Jerryteps 05:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC) Great. Weird thing is that the sample is 59 kbps in quality while the other samples are approximately 65 kbps, but I don't hear a difference.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 09:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC) importance and christian metal The importance section makes the statistics way to big, maybe we should move it to a section below the members list? Plus, do you reckon that the christian metal article would deserve A-class? Since I don't think we're going to get FA-class anytime soon... – Jerryteps 00:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC) Looks all right on my screen but if you find that section too big then go a head and move it. The reviewers on the FA nomination page called it "a great article," so I guess Christian metal qualifies for A-class easily. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 09:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC) There should be no merge I belive we shouldn't merge, the project will become less active as it would be harder to locate, the template is harder, and I belive the User:Absolon just wants to be the creater of a wiki-task force so they will be more notable, like User:e_tac. Plus why should we merge? our project has more articles in it's scope than the christian music wikiproject so if anything the christian music should be merged with us. (but it shouldn't since they articles will be in a metal project o_0) User:Absolon just wants to be leader of the articles. WP:CMM is much more organised than the task force (to-do list is a list of not metal articles but what everyone on wikipedia wants) plus the christian music wikiproject stole our pagelayout! – Jerryteps 02:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC) "User:Absolon just wants to be the creater of a wiki-task force so they will be more notable, like User:e_tac" What does that mean?--E tac (talk) 22:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC) The entire christian music wikiproject is less active than our project plus they have like 1/5th the members of us. they have 1/49th the amount of articles in our scope (the task force) plus I think the task force has only 1 member which is absolon. But the christian metal wikiproject has 2x the amount of articles as us, but that's irrelevent since we're talking about merging with the task-force. – Jerryteps 02:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Yes. This project should stay the way it is and not merge in a way that Christian metal project would be deleted. There's currently a lot of activity on articles such as P.O.D.m Underoath, as I Lay Dying etc. going on. I thought the project "merge" was about forming somekind of union i.e. projects helping each other, not making 1 project in stead of keeping the on going projects. We are not a Christian music project, we are a Christian metal project. Take it easy, I'll clear this up with the Christian music project. By the way, we kind of loaned some of the layout idea from Wikiproject metal so, don't get too angry on Wikiprojcet Christian music loaning ours (though they should have at least changed the colors). --Azure Shrieker (talk) 10:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC) If you note most of the members of the other projects simply became members of the specific work groups in the new project (i.e. the former CCM Project members are now members of the CCM work group). I had no intention of changing how the various groups function (after all I am only a editor myself). The thought was that by combining the projects we could unify efforts in editing and formatting the various genre articles. I took the best of all the projects and combined them (layout from yours, assesments from CCM, templates from Gospel, etc.) I hope that you will reconsider the merger proposal. I will leave your work group active in the new project and I have reopened your original project with the WikiProject Council. On a personal note: I have no need to "just wants to be leader of the articles" or "be the creater of a wiki-task force so they will be more notable." I simply want to see Christian music as a whole better represented on Wikipedia. Believe it or not my life is full enough without notoriety on Wikipedia being a concern. This is the life of a ogre. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 13:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC) I agree with Azure Shrieker to keep the project the way it is. We've been making progress with many of the articles and some, like P.O.D. and Underoath, are on their way to reached GA-status and later featured status with the help of this WikiProject. Both WikiProjects should just help each other with some related articles with no need to merge. Quetzal123 (talk) 05:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Opps, the way I worded it made me sound angry lol, I wasn't angry I just worded it in a way that made it seem like I was angry. Hmm maybe we should just have some sort of partnership instead? Plus sorry for making those accusations against you Absolon. – Jerryteps 06:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC) We definitely could use input on items like article structures, what constitutes GA-status, what constitutes a reliable citation source, or any other areas relating to articles and lists. Partnerships are always appreciated. Hope to see you all around the workspace. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 13:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Our assessment scale is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian Metal/Assessment. – Jerryteps 05:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Looks both projects are using the standard assessment scales produced by the editorial team (ours is here). I was actually looking more for input on what standard criteria we could use to rate an article in the various categories (i.e. a set number of sources, a certain amount of infobox information, inclusion of photos or sound clips, etc.). We have more than 500 "start" class and "B" class articles and if we can tell people what to add we can help them move toward "GA" class faster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Absolon (talk • contribs) 14:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Hmm, for a GA-class article in my opinion it must have no spelling mistakes, maybe a band logo for the bands name. It should (pretty important) have at least one free photo of the band. Sound clips arn't that important but they add to the article. It should also contain 20+ references. The article must have a comprehensive biography and maybe a musical style section (important but not 100% nessecary) plus a complete discography with articles made for every album. – Jerryteps 00:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC) But that's my opinion, we should work together on creating a more formal and easy to read musical class standard. – Jerryteps 00:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC) That was my hope in consolidating the projects into one... I will take your suggestions back to the Christian music WikiProject where we are discussing a standardized format. Absolon S. Kent (talk) 21:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC) Oh, ok. I'll see if I can help making a standardized format and hopefully others from this project will aswell. – Jerryteps 01:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC) Here's my two cents, even though it is late. I fear that if the projects are merged, there will be less attention to the articles we are focusing on, when the point of a merge would be to help both. I doubt lots of the "Christian Music" wikipedians will want to edit our project's pages, as some may not like and/or may not want to edit these articles. The merger would hurt both ends of the stick. Err, and about them taking our template... we can just ask for it back, right? IronCrow (talk) 03:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC) Lol, we "stole" it from WP:HMM so technically i'm a hypocrite. I agree that the merge wouldn't create much more productivity. – Jerryteps 08:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC) Article Focus: Inactivity? I know our project has not become inactive or anything, but there has been a resent string of neglection of the Christian metal article. We're doing great in reverting vandalism and keeping it in a NPOV, but I think we need to look at the article a bit more closely. I'm partially to blame for this, I apologize, I've been focusing more on my courses at college and I don't want to mess that up (of course). I know we all see great potential for a Featured Article, but I think we need to work a bit harder on it. Maybe a little clean-up here, a little addition/subtraction of information there, etc. I think now's the time we compile our ideas together and see what everyone thinks. I'm fresh out of ideas, however, so maybe someone else should go first. IronCrow (talk) 22:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC) By the way - I will be inactive for the next two weeks. I've got personal issues I have to deal with, and I really have no time for anything related to free time. If I was being rude to anyone please forgive me, I try not to, but with things as they are, don't expect me on much for the next month, though 2 weeks is probably all I will be gone. Thanks in advance. IronCrow (talk) 01:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC) The last Featured Article nomination brought up several issues, including "bad sources", "too many lists" (the fanzines - might as well delete those) and a major demand: "the whole article needs to be rewritten". All Music Guide keeps increasing its database on Christian metal as well and I'm sure there are people writing books on this stuff. I was thinking that maybe we should extend the Characteristics section. Since "often the Christian themes are melded with the subjects of the genre the band is rooted in, regularly providing a Christian take on the subject matter," we could give examples that what the typical Christian lyrics are like in the major and less major subgenres. For example, in death metal, Mortification provides their take on the gory, occult imagery on Scrolls: "maggots infests the mind of unbelievers in form on unholiness" etc. Holy Blood's folk metal lyrics talk about historical events such as the Christian baptising rites of the Russians during 10th century in contrast to the typical Pagan themes of the genre. Something like that. Second thing, I think we had some pretty good ideas to write a section about the differences between US and Europe. Maybe that could be turned into a section titled "Regional scenes" and include places like South America as well? (See the similar section in the Unblack metal article)--Azure Shrieker (talk) 08:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC) Yeah, I reckon it needs a complete re-write, instead of just focusing on the history and Christian side of it maybe we should do something like the heavy metal page has. (Heavy_metal#Musical_language, but the history and christian side is still important, but we should focus on a broader range of christian metal related subjects, I didn't explain that very well, but basically we should add more than just history onto the page) – Jerryteps 08:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC) I agree, though I think it is a great article with no need for a re-write, but since Wikipedia can't ever seem to be satisfied, we might as well.¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 03:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC) Proposed merger with WikiProject Christian music/Christian Metal music There are currently two separate project pages for the same subject, this one and Wikipedia:WikiProject Christian music/Christian Metal music. One should go. Considering that the banner for the other group is set up to provide assessments for this project as well, I would personally, as a bit of an outsider, favor using that banner to reduce banner overcrowding, which would mean using that page. But one or the other should be deleted, probably fairly soon, so that the redundancy doesn't appear in the soon to be updated project directory. Otherwise, we may find a situation where one or the other, maybe both, pages are nominated for deletion. John Carter (talk) 19:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC) No, actually, one shouldn't go. We've discussed this before. Also, many of the bands within Christian metal are not part of the Christian music industry (Virgin Black is a fine example). There's no need to delete either, as they are seperate and have done well without each other anyways. Not only that, but this project has been here for quite some time without any risk of being deleted. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 03:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC) What about this merger? Ok, we've said no to the merger for quite some time simply because we know it will obviously not work out and that our project is doing fine without them. There's no problem with two projects doing the same articles sometimes, for instance, a wikiproject on poets could also do articles on novelists if that novelist was also a poet, etc. What I was wondering was: The last guy who posted stated that either project would risk deletion if there was no merge. I think that's ridiculous since, as I stated above and below, Christian Metal may be, in part, Christian music, however, there's the fact that the industries are different with not only bands but with views and such. The only tie with Amy Grant and As I Lay Dying is that they both start with an A and they are both Christians/bands/groups/people/etc. So I ask, why are they telling us that if we do not join we risk being deleted? Thoughts? ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 03:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC) Yeah, this project is going slow, but strong. Antestor recently passed good article status nomination. \m/ Woohoo! I think this project falls somewhere between Wikiproject Heavy Metal and Wikiproject Christian music, but Personally I prefer to think that Wikiproject Christian Metal is more closely related to Wikiproject Heavy Metal than Wikiproject Christian Music. If there should be a merger, it had to be made with Wikiproject Heavy Metal, but I don't that is going to work since so far not too many people from that project have shown interest for Christian metal. And the Wikiproject Christian Music's Christian-metal-work-group thing has not been active at all so far so why would it work after a merger? Nobody is interested in joining that. It has been said many times and I will say it again: This project is fine on its own. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 09:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC) I agree 100%: Especially with the "Wikiproject Heavy Metal than Wikiproject Christian Music" since the Hevy metal project tends to actually edit the Christian metal articles while the Christian music wikiproject... doesn't, except for the popular metal articles, and even taht is a rarity. I've noticed there's been work done on the main page as well, I like it, but I'll have to check the iamges and what not, haven't just yet. But yeah, I agree. I think a reason for the downtime is that the past semester was school for many Americans and Canadians who attend college and grade schools, so, I guess this summer this will pick up. Hopefully, at least. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 14:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Yeah, i've been really inactive lately because I have an extremely heavy workload at school and I can't find the time to help contribute to wikipedia. – Jerryteps 09:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC) That's understandable. All I've been doing is trying to keep the "Christian" label in Christian metal band articles and a few users keep taking them out... That's about all I've been doing, and to be honest, I give up. It's ridiculous and irritating, especially since they edit out of consensus and they did their workload without even trying to think what I have to say. All I ask for is one word in an opening paragraph... I don't know... I just give up. I'll revert to editing pages on Tamriel and dogfood now I guess. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Serious Problem Please see As I Lay Dying and Underoath. Editors believe Christian metal means simply that the band is just a group of Christians and that their music is not Christian music. Meaning, they think Christian metal bands are just groups of Chrsitians and it has nothing to do with their music. Please look into this. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 03:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC) EDIT: Because of this ridiculous garbage (but more importantly time constraints and personal issues), I'm taking a good, long break from Wikipedia. This has gotten out of hand. I remember when Wikipedia used common sense when editing but now... I don't get it. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 04:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC) So you're upset because the other editors won't let the bands be classified in the lead as "Christian metalcore," just "metalcore"?[2] Pretty intense argument there :P. I think that just means that the mainstream has accepted those groups as their own. Some people like you and I know Christian music well enough to understand that there are quality groups out there, but to these non-Christians or those used to mainstream music simply often find Christian music/metal "retarded". Those editors seem pretty determined to keep the "Christian" tag away from the lead. On the Christian metal talk page OfficialDoughBoy argued that the Christian part of the metal bands should be kept in that main article, and keep the "Christian" tag away from the band articles. I kind of agree, but, I dunno. Is this issue really worth a headache or wasting valuable time arguing pointlessly? Isn't it enought that the Christian fans know these groups play "Christian music"? If the mainstream guys feel that calling the bands simply "metalcore" makes it easier to listen to them, does that not support a somewhat evangelical purpose? The bands' positive message reaches more people that way. But yeah, have a good break from Wiki, this insane place. I need a wiki break too. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 11:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC) No, I do not find Christian music retarded, I am a Christian. It is just these two bands, what makes their music Christian music? We are just saying that the bands that don't actually make music in the Christian genre shouldn't be classified as such in the very first sentence right beside their genre. We still have the fact they are all Christians in the very first paragraph. Even Iron Crow admits these two bands play metalcore music, not 'Christian metalcore' music. I realize that some or a LOT of bands out their do play music of the Christian genre, but these two bands try and reach everyone, Christian is a classification/label for them their music is just like any other metalcore band. We are just saying that the bands that are merely Christians in a band shouldn't be called a 'Christian whatever' band in the very first sentence. I'm different I suppose, but I don't like when Christians call music like of these two bands 'Christian music' seems like that limits who will listen to the music. Wouldn't their music reach more ppl out their in the mainstream. I just don't see how them being Christians in a band makes it Christian music, like it is for Christians only, that is crazy. I like these two bands, and I am very familiar with their music, their music is about every day stuff. I feel like I've not made my point very well, as I'm having trouble putting my thoughts into words. Again, we aren't saying that none of the Christian bands play Christian music, and our point is if their music isn't in the Christian genre they shouldn't be classified as being so in the lead sentence next to their genre. Because in genre related terms they are a metalcore band, not a Christian band. Landon1980 (talk) 12:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I agree that labeling a band "Christian _____" gives the impression that their music is made for Christians only, which is not true. Bands with Christian members never make their music for Christians, they make their music for secular people and those who don't know Christ, even if the band does not have an evangelical goal and just want to write about reality. As bands with Christian members, As I Lay Dying and Underoath have achieved something great that has not happened in years; they succeeded in breaking out of the Christian niche market to mainstream market. True, their lyrics are more like every day experiences (albeit from Christian point of view), so there's nothing wrong with not calling them "Christian metalcore". Too bad that IronCrow is so upset about this Christian label thing, he has spent last few months trying to keep them in the bands' article lead sections as he stated above.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 14:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Azure, please read the article and the sources... the band says they are a Christian band. Landon here believes that when they say that, they are saying they don't play Christian metal/music. I'm not upset that there's no "Christian metalcore." One of the main things i do on Wikipedia is make sure thsoe do not get removed for ridiculous reasons. I know I've been wrong before in my placement of genre before (but that was cleared up quick fast and in a hurry), but it's the fact that he removed the sources stating they are a Christian band when the band states they are.¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 16:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)EDIT: "Again, we aren't saying that none of the Christian bands play Christian music," You said As I Lay Dying/Underoath did, when you ahve no sources. Maybe I am getting worked up over this, but the work I applied to the articles in question is removed with POV of opposite editors. There was no consensus. You excluded me and you excluded Ron James 007. You excluded the editors that made a previous consensus to the articles and edited against that consensus. I apologize for my rude comments yesterday (as a side note, there's been an incredibly bad chain of events presented to me recently, including accounts being stolen from me, so I'm paranoid), but you were not being civil either, especially when you told me to go back to being an atheist. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 16:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)EDIT: Doesn't matter anyways, I wont win the argument, no amtter how many reliable sources I have, and I don't care anymore. Everytime I keep trying to move on, they reply... That's why this has gone on so long. That's why I give up. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 17:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC) That sure was a short break, what happened to you being done? It is very ironic that you speak of civility while editing. You are one of the if not the rudest fellow editor I have met on here. I didn't tell you to go back to atheism; I asked you if it wasn't about time for you to convert back, and was only after several comments of yours where you were speaking in all caps and calling me silly, and ridiculous, etc. I feel like it is pointless to talk to you, it's like you don't even read the comments I make. Most of every thing you say is original research. You have admitted more than once that the Christian classification has nothing to do with the genre of these two bands' music. The lead sentence in music articles is for the genre, look around at other articles 'alternative rock band' 'punk rock' band, etc. Putting Christian beside of metalcore looks like their genre is 'Christian metalcore' instead of metalcore, because on wiki the genre is always directly next to the word band. I sure don't see 'Atheist rock band' or 'mormon rock band' or Jewish rock band, when it is just the bands' religion. The only way these two bands are Christian bands is if being Christians make them a Christian band. No matter what their religion, the musical product of these two bands is metalcore, therefore they are technically a metlcore band. Remember this is an encyclopedia. The bands actually need to be in the 'Christian whatever' genre before they are labeled as such in the lead sentence. Landon1980 (talk) 17:27, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Don't worry about me. I'm still on my break, that's why I'm not really doing much editing. I already apologized for my comments, but yet you still talk about it, and you have yet to apologize for yours. I read your comments, but to be painfully ovious: you lack viablility to even consider a conversation with you. And yes, there is Jewish rap, Jewish Rock, Muslim hardcore, etc - since we live in a world predominately Christian/Western world, we see Christian bands more often than we do others, I already pointed this out. I already said I give up on this argument. Can you jsut just drop it? I don't have the time to constantly revise articles every time some guy takes the arugment further. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 17:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Back to you not reading the comments I or anyone else makes. I know there is Jewish rock bands, etc., but them being of that religion alone doesn't make them a Jewish rock band. On all other band articles the lead is for their genre, why should it be different here? Landon1980 (talk) 17:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC) By the way you need to fix the RFC template you added if you still want users to do so, there is an error in how you posted it. Landon1980 (talk) 17:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Please answer something else for me: You acknowledge that the genre of these two bands is metalcore, yet you say they play Christian music. I guess I have the wrong idea of what a bands genre is; I always thought the genre is what kind of music the play. I would think that only true 'Christian whatever' bands would play Christian music; I still fail to see how them being Christians make it Christian music. Bands with the genre 'Christian rock' or 'Christian metal' play Christian music, these two bands play metalcore music. Landon1980 (talk) 17:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC) I'm not going to read that comment. I already said I give up, I don't care about the articles anymore. Please stop continuing this. I have asked more than once for you to stop bugging me about it. The conflict is over, there's no need to continue. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 17:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Am I holding a gun to your head making you bang on your keyboard? No, you can stop replying whenever you wish. Landon1980 (talk) 17:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC) As can you. I already said this was done. I'm not angry anymore. I just said I give up. I'm done. That's it. Your continued comments are adding nothing to this discussion other than bashing me because I don't agree with you, which should have ended. We're all adults here (hopefully), and we can put this behind us. I'm not bashing my keyboard, I'm not infuriated, I'm simply annoyed and done. It's as simple as that. Now if you would, please go back to editing. This conversation is done. This is my last comment on this. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 17:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Whether you reply to this or not, I still want to say that to annoy you was the least of my intentions. I am truly am sorry for my rude comment I made to you yesterday, and I mean that. I shouldn't have done that. Nothing is set in stone on wikipedia, the articles can be changed. Is the word Christian being directly beside their genre the only thing you will settle for, or is there neutral ground we could meet on? I promise I/we are/were acting in good faith, and taking our readers into consideration. It is just those two articles, we aren't going around removing Christian from the bands that are in that genre, we realize it belongs there. Landon1980 (talk) 18:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Just a comment. In my opinion we should start only classifying bands as christian metal if they have christian lyrics in it. Because alot of christian metal bands just have influences in them and not full blown christian themes. We would still put them in the christian metal category but for the info box we should just say they are what ever genre/subgenre they currently are and make sure that it is mentioned that they are christian. – Jerryteps 04:48, 1 July 2008 (UTC) I agree with you whole heartedly, that is what I have been trying to get Ironcrow to understand. He thinks that if the members are Christians that they should be labeled a Christian metal band in the very first sentence, and in the infobox. I feel that before their described as a 'Christian______' band their music should fit that genre, being Christians alone does not make it Christian music in my opinion. Landon1980 (talk) 16:37, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS. The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class. The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects. A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here. Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles. Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot (Disable) 22:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC) Leaving Project My apologies, but Wikipedia is far from what it used to be and far from what it could be. I do not regret to inform my fellow project members, but after years of editing, I am leaving. Thanks for being the only people I can find that truely care about the articles here. As for now, I'll get back to my writing and back to actual research. Hmm, I'll add this to my User Page. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 04:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC) It's sad to see you leave; but I wish you the best in all your future endeavors. – Jerryteps 09:57, 10 July 2008 (UTC) Christianity in mainstream metal Do you think we should support the Christianity in mainstream metal page? I don't know how to see a list of pages we support...I just joined lol. -Sector311 (talk) 18:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC) First of all, welcome to the project! Second of all, you can see what pages the Christian metal project supports by seeing this category: Category:WikiProject Christian Metal articles, you can also find that link from the project page's bottom line. And to answer your question, Christianity in mainstream metal is a subarticle of its main article, Christian metal, it is kept separate from that article "due to size or style considerations." So yes we definitely support it :-). To see whether we support an article or not, click the "discussion" link on any article's upper row to see if the page has the project's template in it.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 20:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Thanks. I can be stupid when it comes to this stuff.-Sector311 (talk) 02:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC) No question is stupid. If you don't ask, you wont know. – Jerryteps 01:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC) Proposed new style I've made a slightly different style of the page (just made it more streamlined) can you all give your opinions on it on my talk page. Oh and this semester I have more time on my hands so i'm coming back to Wikipedia. =) – Jerryteps 01:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC) I have now implemented the changes. – Jerryteps 06:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC) The Showdown I saw in the to do list that it says The Showdown band article needs to be improved. I think it's pretty good and doesn't need improvement. Anyone else?-Sector311 (talk) 15:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC) Yes, I belive it should taken off the to do list. It should also be put in for a good article nomination. But you might want to get a peer review about the article first, as to improve the article as well as possible before submitting it for a good article nomination. But it's entirely your choice. If you think the article is good enough you could submit it for a good article nomination without a review. – Jerryteps 06:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC) Cool man how do I nominate it?-Sector311 (talk) 15:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC) By going here. If you want I can nominate the page. But I leave it up to you. Plus, how do you like the new page style? – Jerryteps 09:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Oh ok I can try and see how I do. I like the new style! -Sector311 (talk) 15:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC) Well that sucked. It did not go good at all. I hate myself.-Sector311 (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC) What went wrong? I looked at the history and you removed it after you nominated the article? – Jerryteps 05:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC) No, I mean that I tried to put it on there and it wouldn't appear as the link.-Sector311 (talk) 18:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC) I'm actually not sure it just didn't work. -Sector311 (talk) 19:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC) Do you mean that it was decided that it wasn't a GA? Or what? – Jerryteps 22:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC) No, I mean that it wouldn't appear as a link.-Sector311 (talk) 18:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC) Ok, i'll supervise the GA nomination later this afternoon. – Jerryteps 06:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC) Suggestions page Do we really need this page? It's pretty much the to do list with a different name and changes to the project can be suggested here on the talk page. – Jerryteps 22:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC) Yeah, perhaps we don't need the Suggestions page since is has not been very active, and so far the To Do list and this talk page have been more suitable for new ideas.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC) Ok, i'll put it up for speedy deletion. – Jerryteps 06:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)