Talk:England: Difference between revisions

Country, State or Nation?

This helpful article helped me understand the difference between a Country, State and Nation. I note the confusion of different interpretations of each word. However I would argue the introduction of this article should read "England is a nation that is part of the United Kingdom". This would better agree with the wiki definitions of Country, Nation and State (polity). Ssojjoss (talk) 19:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

You can find academic sources at Countries of the United Kingdom. Moxy🍁 00:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Nope, there are no academic sources which support the claim that England is a country. In the meantime, the United Nations does NOT recognise England as a country, nor does England meet the definition of a country in the various dictionaries, which invariably refer to an area of land which has its own government, something which England does not have. Texas used to be a country, still has its own government though, and is clearly closer to the definition of country than England is, as are the other 49 states, and all the states in Australia. England is more like a state of the United Kingdom, but it doesn't even rise to that level, because once again it doesn't have its own government. England is more like a group of provinces of the United Kingdom than anything else! It certainly isn't a country... FillsHerTease (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

It should be definitely be changed, because England is NOT a country. There is no basis whatsoever on which it can be called a country. It doesn't have it's own government. It doesn't have passports. It doesn't have ANYTHING that an actual country has. Not to mention the fact that it is part of a ... drum roll please ... country called The United Kingdom. I'm sure people call it a country simply because it was, at one stage, and for many hundreds of years. Anyone who says it is a country needs to explain why England is a country but Texas is not, considering that, unlike England, Texas DOES have a government, and even its own Constitution. However it isn't a country, despite the fact that it was one at one stage, because it is part of another country, namely The United States. There is no such thing as a country that is part of another country! FillsHerTease (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Why England is not a country? So the English flag doesn't make sense? In what world did you think that? There is so much arrogance, so much shallow knowledge that this shouldn't even be considered an "argument",because clearly I can see that you don't understand anything about the subject,this is worst edit I've ever seen, and they still say that the problem with Wikipedia is reliable sources, being after all, no one is saved and will never be saved anytime soon, If you don't stop being intolerant and want to own the truth, you'll make me feel sorry, man, I'm in mourning, because your brain passed away a long time ago. 177.105.90.20 (talk) 20:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I explained why it isn't a country, but I'll explain again because you obviously aren't very bright:

1. It doesn't have it's own government.

2. It doesn't have passports.

3. It isn't recognised as a country by the United Nations.

4. It doesn't meet the definition of country in the various dictionaries.

5. The COUNTRY it is part of is called The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and there is no such thing as a country that is part of another country.

These are the things which countries ALL have, (Personal attack removed)FillsHerTease (talk) 20:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Please try to be civil. And note, this has been discussed many times before and the consensus seems to be as the wording is now. Tony Holkham (Talk) 20:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Dude, there's no point in saying "Ah, be civil", this guy won't accept that he's wrong. 177.105.90.20 (talk) 20:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not wrong. FillsHerTease (talk) 09:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

If someone says "I'm in mourning, because your brain passed away a long time ago", then ... NO ... I will NOT be civil. Where is your admonition for the person who started it? I have quoted sources - i.e. The United Nations amongst others - and presented an argument, but he has provided NOTHING but insults in reply. If it has been discussed in the past and you have reached the erroneous conclusion that England is a country, then that's fine, I understand how it works, but don't come after me for responding in kind to someone who has don't NOTHING except throw shade. FillsHerTease (talk) 09:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Stop being an idiot, man, you should be banned from Wikipedia, you want to try to be the lord of the truth, but everything you've said so far is hypocrisy, you're a shame, listen? And don't bother filling my patience with your stupidity, because I'm fed up with it, if you want to lie, lie right, man. 177.105.90.20 (talk) 13:18, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Here are some more sources by the way:

The Encyclopaedia Britannica - https://www.britannica.com/topic/list-of-countries-1993160

Worldmeter - https://www.worldometers.info/geography/alphabetical-list-of-countries/

US Department of State - https://history.state.gov/countries/all

WIKIPEDIA ITSELF DOESN'T RECOGNISE ENGLAND AS A COUNTRY - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_area

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states FillsHerTease (talk) 09:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed)177.105.90.20 (talk) 20:54, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Sovereign states typically decide on the names of their component parts. Russia is made up of 'republics'. The US of 'states'. I believe France calls them 'regions'. The UK government calls its largest components 'countries'. See Countries of the United Kingdom.

ISO 3166-2:GB defines England as a 'country'. See also the UK's submission to the 2007 United Nations Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names which defines the UK as being made up of two countries (England and Scotland), one principality (Wales) and one province (Northern Ireland). The UK's Office of National Statistics also describes England as a country. Seems pretty definitive to me. Dgp4004 (talk) 09:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd say it seems pretty definitive that the people of England want to keep referring to England as a country. You say the UK made a submission to the United Nations, but the United Nations does not recognise England and a country - despite what people in England might say or think - and England does not meet the United Nations definition of a country. You quote the UK Office of National Statistics, but I have quote the US State Department. I have also shown what other encyclopaedias say, and shown that Wikipedia doesn't list it as a country. Doesn't seem like your argument is very definitive at all. Since when does a local custom - which, as I've said, exists for very obvious reasons, but is wrong - trump reality? FillsHerTease (talk) 10:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

You mean this one: https://history.state.gov/countries/all? It says it's a list of "countries with which the United States has had diplomatic relations." And it's clearly meant for that purpose only.

In any case, you don't seem to have a consensus on changing the term I'm afraid. Dgp4004 (talk) 10:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, another person claiming that the US Government hasn't had diplomatic relations with England. LOL! I already agreed that I know how things work, and that if it has already been decided - ERRONEOUSLY - that England is a country, then that's fine. If you don't want this encyclopaedia to be accurate, then there's nothing I can do... FillsHerTease (talk) 19:52, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Putting the term 'country' aside for a moment, what do you suggest England is? You've given one source which uses the term 'constituent'. Is that your suggested term? Are there other sources which call it simply a 'constituent'? I see you've said 'group of provinces' also. Are there any sources which define England as a 'group of provinces'? Dgp4004 (talk) 22:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Is there a reason why this page has neither the HDI nor Gini of England listed? All other UK nation pages (Scotland, Wales, United Kingdom etc) have them. 92.15.85.19 (talk) 15:05, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

We can't get a source for England HDI, sadly (see the source on the other pages). And for GINI, the only source was the Scottish Government which somebody objected to as it was felt to be unreliable. Dgp4004 (talk) 15:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no basis whatsoever on which it can be called a country. England is a country because the vast majority of people in the British Isles call it a country. It's that simple. For WP purposes there are numerous quality RSSs that also call it a country. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Exactly! It was a country, once upon a time, and a very powerful one at that, so people have kept calling it a country - for obvious reasons - but this is an encyclopaedia, and in the real world England is not a country, so this encyclopaedia should not refer to it as one.

Here is the entry on England in the Encyclopaedia Britannica - https://www.britannica.com/place/England - which refers to it as a "constituent", which is what it is (though I think I used the term "province" above).

Here is the link in the New World Encyclopaedia, which also refers to it as a constituent - https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/England

I could easily add another 20 different sources which make it clear that it is not a country... FillsHerTease (talk) 09:47, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Where are all these sources - I have provided multiple sources - and when are they going to be added to the page? FillsHerTease (talk) 09:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Quote: Exactly! I'm glad you agree with me. It's bed time, but referring to your sources, and before I turn off the light, WP doesn't count as a source. The US govt source, that isn't secondary, says This section provides historical reference information on the countries with which the United States has had diplomatic relations. Where does it say England isn't a country, or that the USA doesn't recognise England as a country? I don't have time to explain why your other sources aren't siotable. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 10:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Hilarious! So England is a country, but the US Government hasn't had diplomatic relations with them??? LOL!

"I don't have time to explain why your other sources aren't siotable." - I'll take that to mean that you don't have any good arguments, and that your claim that the US Government has never had relations with England is the best you can do... FillsHerTease (talk) 19:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

• Perhaps we should make Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom/refs more clear so our readers can educate themselves.Moxy🍁 21:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 May 2024

Please change "the greater metropolitan of which has a population" (Intro) to "the metropolitan area of which has a population" because
i. there's no noun following the adj
ii. 'greater metropolitan' is not justified by the content of the relative article (Greater London is more specific, and there are other area definitions as well) Aethalides 02:36, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 20:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 May 2024

Under transport, 'Bus Rapid Transit' is incorrectly in capitals. It should be bus rapid transit (BRT). 2A0A:EF40:E81:7701:C9E4:23A8:8929:A3F7 (talk) 08:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 15:06, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 May 2024 (2)

In the third paragraph, the opening sentence "England is the origin the..." should be changed to "English is the origin of the...". Toor137 (talk) 21:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Should be changed to: "England is the origin of the..."

can't believe I made a mistake while correcting one! Toor137 (talk) 21:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done Tollens (talk) 05:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 May 2024

Cite badminton in sport section Backdoored (talk) 17:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 22:27, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 June 2024

Under energy, add the Viking Link and National Grid network, such as the following:

Much of Great Britain's National Grid electric power transmission network runs through England. The English parts of the National Grid are controlled from the National Grid Control Centre located in Berkshire. The Viking Link between Denmark and England is the world’s longest land and subsea interconnector, which was completed in 2023. 2A0A:EF40:E0D:1D01:4971:1631:57B8:4CC0 (talk) 23:32, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done as this is a request to verbatim restore an edit by LTA banned user Lam312321321. They are the reason that this article is currently edit protected. --Belbury (talk) 08:52, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 June 2024

Add all the English cities designated City of Literature under Literature; this includes Exeter, Manchester, Norwich, and Nottingham. KingandcountryGB (talk) 16:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Lam312321321, see investigation)

 Question: why? M.Bitton (talk) 00:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Charliehdb (talk) 13:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Update

The poltics section needs to be updated, due to the aftermath of the UK general election. 2A0A:EF40:E4A:E101:1D3D:909:A1B3:2F4B (talk) 10:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 July 2024

> [[1]]

> Change the MP make up of England, after the results of the recent election. KingandcountryGB (talk) 18:12, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

 Already done macaddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 13:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Constituent country

I personally think the first line "England is a country that is part of the United Kingdom." should be changed to "England is a constituent country that is part of the United Kingdom". I understand that a constituent country is just a type of country, although when someone hears the word country they wouldn't think of a constituent country. I do think that the first line of the article is linked well considering "country" leads to the actual page of the constituent countries that make up the United Kingdom, although I think it'd be better to call England a constituent country, as not only is it more specific but it is also the correct name that it should be given.

England shouldn't be called just a country, as it is already part of a country (United Kingdom). To any typical person it wouldn't make much sense for four countries to be part of one country, that'd more be a continent.

It doesn't hurt anyone to call it a constituent country as it doesn't change the meaning of the first line, nor does it change the truth, rather, it's even more correct, stating the type of country England actually is.

Wordings like these tend to lead people to mistakes, causing many people to just call nations such as England "a country inside a country" without actually knowing the difference between the status of England and the status of another country such as Russia. They are not the same thing, so they shouldn't be called the same thing. (Note: I am copy and pasting this across the talk pages of all the constituent countries that make up the United Kingdom to try and get it changed)

Thank you, Setergh (talk) 16:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Have a look at the first conversation on this page, above. It makes the same argument, and failed to gain any consensus for change. KJP1 (talk) 17:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I have seen the conversations although I felt like trying to bring up the topic again as I still feel like the problem should be noted. But alright, I'll drop it. No need to follow me around though. Setergh (talk) 17:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Didn't notice the warning box about it either. Setergh (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Removing image of Palace of Westminster

@Goodreg3 removed the Palace of Westminster image from the politics section, apparently because As this article is about England and English politics alone, as the seat of the overall UK Parliament, it really does not serve a purpose here. What else are we going to add here? The Palace of Westminster is where England is governed from. 2A0A:EF40:E37:4201:9DCA:1E0C:AD96:D1EA (talk) 22:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Politics of England has pictures of the Palace of Westminster. It should be added back. 2A0A:EF40:E37:4201:9DCA:1E0C:AD96:D1EA (talk) 22:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Per User_talk:Goodreg3#Friendly_warning, this IP has the sniff of a sock about them. That said, a picture of the building, in England, from which England is governed is clearly pertinent to a section which discusses same. There is no body which deals with "England and English politics alone", so following the logic of removal of the picture would imply the article text should also go; clearly absurd. Also, unexplained, apparently pointless and sometimes detrimental changes to the position of images is a trait of the editor who removed the Westminster image and I'm unclear as to the benefit of the changes noted as "formatting". I'm not going to indulge a sneaky sock though so I'll let others contemplate. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

In response to your comments about the “pointless” image moving, it improves the formatting of the article, avoiding overlap into other sections of the article and avoids sandwiching of text. Goodreg3 (talk) 19:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

That the avoidance of this is desirable or an improvement is your personal inclination only. It often makes the appearance rather stiff and awkward looking and, from memory of similar changes made at other articles, sometimes actively disordered or clunky. You shouldn't be editing on personal whim. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:49, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Whether I’m editing on personal whim is your own interpretation of my edits. It may appear that you as a single editor just don’t like my contributions. However, this is not the place or the subject of this discussion to be discussing my own prior edits to other articles. Goodreg3 (talk) 20:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I would also like to kindly point out to you, that over the course of my 7,000+ edits, not all of them are concerned with moving images about! :) Goodreg3 (talk) 19:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Why? Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:49, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

As I believe you are exaggerating a little by claiming that all I do is spend time on here moving images about, which is not the case. I have created a number of articles, edited stubs and expanded articles up to reasonable standards and keeping information updated and current on several articles. I just wanted to point out to you the, what I would class, valued contributions I make to Wikipedia. Should you wish to see my contributions further in terms of article creations and expansions, please check out my user page before you begin to claim all I do is move images about again. Goodreg3 (talk) 20:59, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

"trait" ≠ "all (you) do is". Do not confect grievances. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:49, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

You will need to explain this further. Again, please feel free to explore my other contributions and you will find you are deliberately being selective in your use of facts. Goodreg3 (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

You are falsely claiming that I have said that "all (you) do is" x. If it's not based on a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of my reference to a "trait" of yours, blowed if I know what. You might want to withdraw the claim. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:33, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, unexplained, apparently pointless and sometimes detrimental changes to the position of images is a trait of the editor who removed the Westminster image.

Trait could mean anything, including tendency, trademark, mannerism or characteristic, all of which would imply that someone spends their time only doing that particular thing which is not the case, and I would like you to recognise that and withdraw your comment which I quoted above.

Trait is defined as “ a distinguishing quality or characteristic” in the dictionary, therefore I stand by what I say, that you are suggesting my overarching characteristic in terms of what I bring to Wikipedia is the movement of images. Not the case. Goodreg3 (talk) 21:15, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I am merely wishing to point out to you that my only “trait” is not only moving images about, that I have contributed heavily in areas of interest, expanding and creating articles which you did not seem to acknowledge. Not that I want any honour from you about my contributions, but I just want to take the time to point out to you that it is not my only trait and I have contributed to Wikipedia over the years effectively. Or do you only notice and mention the things which you don’t particularly like? Goodreg3 (talk) 21:17, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Not wishing to take up further space here, I've taken the matter elsewhere. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:16, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 July 2024

Add an image under goverance, like the The Palace of Westminster, maybe this [[2]] could be restored, by author Diliff? 81.78.140.67 (talk) 18:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done per the suggestion of discussion in the above talk page section, perhaps the editor who removed it could give an opinion. --Belbury (talk) 19:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

OK thank you! 81.78.140.67 (talk) 19:10, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

England is not a country because it is not sovereign and not recognized as a seperate country.

This is as far as I can tell the wikipedia conseus for countryhood. Alexander Shipfield (talk) 12:04, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Alexander Shipfield - have a look at the FAQ at the top of this page. KJP1 (talk) 14:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Suggest reading Country to see what the English world considers a country versus a sovereign state. Moxy🍁 18:59, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Can we put an "(official)" under "Christianity" in religion section in infobox?

‎ Gammawammallama (talk) 19:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

England does not have an "official" religion, even though there is a (Christian) Church of England headed by the monarch.Tony Holkham (Talk) 20:00, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 August 2024

Two sources to support the Grand Prix motorcycle racing in the sport section (which are noted as needing sources).

'England has seen the manufacture some of the most technically advanced racing cars, and many of today's racing companies choose England as their base of operations' Source: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/where-are-f1-teams-based/10348715/

'England also has a rich heritage in Grand Prix motorcycle racing, the premier championship of motorcycle road racing, and produced several world champions' Source: https://www.motorcyclenews.com/advice/travelling-touring/places-to-visit/silverstone-experience-centre/ 2A0A:EF40:EB2:5501:758B:54C1:D175:10FA (talk) 22:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

First one done, second source doesn't seem to support most of the sentence (just talks about a local museum). Rusalkii (talk) 00:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Try this source 2A0A:EF40:EB2:5501:758B:54C1:D175:10FA (talk) 02:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2024

Under sport, add this source for Grand Prix motorcycle racing. 2A0A:EF40:EB2:5501:8C39:135:C552:C9A2 (talk) 22:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2024

{{subst:trim|1=

Fix link issue in history. [[Christianisation of Anglo-Saxon England|reintroduced by missionaries[[

}} 2A0A:EF40:EB2:5501:64FF:5A6C:18E0:831A (talk) 19:02, 16 August 2024 (UTC)