Talk:2012 Formula One World Championship/Archive 5
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European Grand Prix
Why does the European Grand Prix have the Spanish flag? Shouldn't it show the European Flag? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvx1 (talk • contribs) 14:19, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- The European Grand Prix is not related to the European Union. The flag denotes the location of the event, not the continent in its title. Europe as a continent has no flag. The359 (Talk) 17:39, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- The flag of Europe does not only represent the European Union. It's also used to represent the continent of Europe, especially in sporting events of which a grand prix is an example. Read the article about the flag of Europe. If the flag denotes the location of the event, then why where the most recent editions of the San Marino and Luxembourg Grands Prix accompanied by the flags of San Marino and Luxembourg respectively, even though the location of these events was Italy and Germany, respectively ? I think it should show the European flag since it is called the grand prix of Europe!--Tvx1 (talk) 21:25, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- We've been through all this a number of times. What would you do about the Pacific GP? That region has no flag. Pescara? I think all the San Marino GPs were changed to the Italian flag, but some people like to change them back. There was consensus on this. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:35, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- All the Luxembourg / San Marino race articles have the flag of the host nation, as per consensus. Where did you see the Lux / SM flags? Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:40, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you show any proof of this consensus? I still think a grand prix should carry the flag of the continent/country/region/city it is named for. After all there is a reason why it is named after that particular location. There are indeed a few exceptions where there is nog flag for that location like the Pacific GP, Pescara GP, the upcoming GP of the Americas, or even the Ceasar's Palace GP. In those examples the only option is to show the flag of the country in which the Grand Prix took place. But when the locations named in the Grands Prix's names have their own flag like San Marino, Luxembourg and Europe (and even Abu Dhabi too), those flags should be shown. The articles dealing with the Motorcycle Grand Prix World Championship work in the same way, with the Spanish, Cantalunya, Aragon and Valencia MotoGP's all showing their own flags even though they all take place in Spain. --Tvx1 (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- You sound like you don't believe it exists. Seriously, I'm not going off to dig it up. It's very long and in the archives. If you want to have the discussion out again, then take it to the WPF1 talk page – someone will soon produce the old consensus. There's also a MOS problem with the flag icon rules – flags are only supposed to represent people, teams or places, not events. Therefore the F1 flags represent countries where the races are held. The MotoGP articles violate that, and they just happen to be getting away with it. The flag deletionists love to bash WPF1 for flag use as it is. Again, if you want to have the discussion, please go ahead and do so. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- This discussion and this one and this one all refer to the pre-existing consensus which was established here. DH85868993 (talk) 02:51, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's obvious you didn't read the original discussion, as it is obvious that no consensus was ever established. Some users wanted to believe there was one so badly that they actually thought there was one. There obviously is no consensus on the matter as there were as many agreements as disagreements on the matter. Read through it if you don't believe me. I did. It seems that the fundamental problem with the discussion regarding the European Grand Prix is that a lot of users don't realize that the flag of Europe is not simply the flag of the EU. The flag of Europe has actually been adopted to represent the whole of Europe way before the EU was founded. The EU only adopted it as their flag to. Futhermore I do not agree that a Grand Prix has no value for the location named in the Grand Prix's name. Why don't they call them the ADAC/AvD (Germany), BRDC (Great Britain), Honda (Japan), or even Red Bull Grand Prix (Austria) instead? There obviously is a reason why Grands Prix are named after places! I think the current situation of the Spanish flag next to the European Grand Prix creates confusion for those readers who don't know all the flags of the world by heart, as they might think that flag(Spanish) is actually the flag of Europe. Finally, the collumn listing the Grands Prix Circuit gives the opportunity to show the actual location's flag, no the column listing the Grands prix. I therefore stick with my argument: I still think a grand prix should carry the flag of the continent/country/region/city it is named for. After all there is a reason why it is named after that particular location. There are indeed a few exceptions where there is nog flag for that location like the Pacific GP, Pescara GP, the upcoming GP of the Americas, or even the Ceasar's Palace GP. In those examples the only option is to show the flag of the country in which the Grand Prix took place. But when the locations named in the Grands Prix's names have their own flag like San Marino, Luxembourg and Europe (and even Abu Dhabi too), those flags should be shown. Tvx1 (talk) 14:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- It was established, and generally adhered to, despite the banned user Lucy-Marie being obnoxious about it. You stick with your argument, and we'll stick with the consensus. You failed to address the point about the flag MOS which permits flags for people, teams and places, not events. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:07, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- Have you actually read MOS:FLAG? Nowhere do I read that an "event" can't be used in combination with a flag! It literally says "Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country, government, or nationality – such as military units, government officials, or national sports teams. In lists or tables, flag icons may be relevant when the nationality of different subjects is pertinent to the purpose of the list or table itself." Well, I think in this case they are relevant as the subjects here (i.e. the Grands Prix) represent the continents/countries/regions/cities they are named after. Why else would they be named for a continent/country/region/city in the first place and not for a Person/Organisation/Sponsor/Company ? I, for one, am a proud Belgian and our Belgian Grand Prix represents our whole nation and is something we are incredibly proud of and the flag of Belgium would have a rightful place next to the name of our Grand Prix. Tvx1 (talk) 20:07, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- Don't ask stupid questions. If you'd read the discussion pages on MOSFLAG, you'd see just how much I've had to say about it. I disagree with your interpretation of the MOS and enough other people also disagree with it to make it unworkable. I don't think you appreciate how hard it has been to retain any flags in F1 articles. You have your Belgian flag in the calendar next to the circuit name, to denote where the circuit is. That is a valid use of a flag in a table per the MOS. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:14, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- Have you actually read MOS:FLAG? Nowhere do I read that an "event" can't be used in combination with a flag! It literally says "Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country, government, or nationality – such as military units, government officials, or national sports teams. In lists or tables, flag icons may be relevant when the nationality of different subjects is pertinent to the purpose of the list or table itself." Well, I think in this case they are relevant as the subjects here (i.e. the Grands Prix) represent the continents/countries/regions/cities they are named after. Why else would they be named for a continent/country/region/city in the first place and not for a Person/Organisation/Sponsor/Company ? I, for one, am a proud Belgian and our Belgian Grand Prix represents our whole nation and is something we are incredibly proud of and the flag of Belgium would have a rightful place next to the name of our Grand Prix. Tvx1 (talk) 20:07, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- It was established, and generally adhered to, despite the banned user Lucy-Marie being obnoxious about it. You stick with your argument, and we'll stick with the consensus. You failed to address the point about the flag MOS which permits flags for people, teams and places, not events. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:07, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's obvious you didn't read the original discussion, as it is obvious that no consensus was ever established. Some users wanted to believe there was one so badly that they actually thought there was one. There obviously is no consensus on the matter as there were as many agreements as disagreements on the matter. Read through it if you don't believe me. I did. It seems that the fundamental problem with the discussion regarding the European Grand Prix is that a lot of users don't realize that the flag of Europe is not simply the flag of the EU. The flag of Europe has actually been adopted to represent the whole of Europe way before the EU was founded. The EU only adopted it as their flag to. Futhermore I do not agree that a Grand Prix has no value for the location named in the Grand Prix's name. Why don't they call them the ADAC/AvD (Germany), BRDC (Great Britain), Honda (Japan), or even Red Bull Grand Prix (Austria) instead? There obviously is a reason why Grands Prix are named after places! I think the current situation of the Spanish flag next to the European Grand Prix creates confusion for those readers who don't know all the flags of the world by heart, as they might think that flag(Spanish) is actually the flag of Europe. Finally, the collumn listing the Grands Prix Circuit gives the opportunity to show the actual location's flag, no the column listing the Grands prix. I therefore stick with my argument: I still think a grand prix should carry the flag of the continent/country/region/city it is named for. After all there is a reason why it is named after that particular location. There are indeed a few exceptions where there is nog flag for that location like the Pacific GP, Pescara GP, the upcoming GP of the Americas, or even the Ceasar's Palace GP. In those examples the only option is to show the flag of the country in which the Grand Prix took place. But when the locations named in the Grands Prix's names have their own flag like San Marino, Luxembourg and Europe (and even Abu Dhabi too), those flags should be shown. Tvx1 (talk) 14:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- This discussion and this one and this one all refer to the pre-existing consensus which was established here. DH85868993 (talk) 02:51, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- You sound like you don't believe it exists. Seriously, I'm not going off to dig it up. It's very long and in the archives. If you want to have the discussion out again, then take it to the WPF1 talk page – someone will soon produce the old consensus. There's also a MOS problem with the flag icon rules – flags are only supposed to represent people, teams or places, not events. Therefore the F1 flags represent countries where the races are held. The MotoGP articles violate that, and they just happen to be getting away with it. The flag deletionists love to bash WPF1 for flag use as it is. Again, if you want to have the discussion, please go ahead and do so. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you show any proof of this consensus? I still think a grand prix should carry the flag of the continent/country/region/city it is named for. After all there is a reason why it is named after that particular location. There are indeed a few exceptions where there is nog flag for that location like the Pacific GP, Pescara GP, the upcoming GP of the Americas, or even the Ceasar's Palace GP. In those examples the only option is to show the flag of the country in which the Grand Prix took place. But when the locations named in the Grands Prix's names have their own flag like San Marino, Luxembourg and Europe (and even Abu Dhabi too), those flags should be shown. The articles dealing with the Motorcycle Grand Prix World Championship work in the same way, with the Spanish, Cantalunya, Aragon and Valencia MotoGP's all showing their own flags even though they all take place in Spain. --Tvx1 (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- The flag of Europe does not only represent the European Union. It's also used to represent the continent of Europe, especially in sporting events of which a grand prix is an example. Read the article about the flag of Europe. If the flag denotes the location of the event, then why where the most recent editions of the San Marino and Luxembourg Grands Prix accompanied by the flags of San Marino and Luxembourg respectively, even though the location of these events was Italy and Germany, respectively ? I think it should show the European flag since it is called the grand prix of Europe!--Tvx1 (talk) 21:25, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Lewis Hamilton
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Just noticed someone seems to have changed all results which should feature Lewis Hamilton as the winner to that of Osama bin Laden, and has also changed the links to link to Osama's page. I have no idea how to fix, could someone have a look at this? (spotted 22/10/2013 @16:31 GMT+1) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.204.111.32 (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
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Official Race Edit Songs section
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| The following discussion has been closed by Tvx1. Please do not modify it. |
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Many may have noticed that the Official Race Edit Songs section has been added to this article. Please leave this section in this article.
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Chavez
Haken arizona, where is your proof that the claims made in the article did not happen? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 19:23, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- And just how important is this really for the 2012 Formula One World Championship? Isn't this more something for Maldonado's or Hugo Chavez's article? Tvx1 (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- @Tvx1 - let's establish whether or not it happened, first. Haken arizona says that it didn't happen at all, but hasn't provided any evidence of it. On the other hand, we have an established journalist who says it did. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 22:27, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- It happened. I changed the source a while ago, and it took about a minute. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:29, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- Exactly. I was well aware of Bretonbanquet's edit which makes this information no well-sourced. That leaves with one question to answer. Is the information important enough for this article? Tvx1 (talk) 22:54, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- @Tvx1 - let's establish whether or not it happened, first. Haken arizona says that it didn't happen at all, but hasn't provided any evidence of it. On the other hand, we have an established journalist who says it did. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 22:27, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Prisonermonkeys I can't seem to find a single quality source, not even in Spanish, were it says Chavez declared national holiday to celebrate Maldonado's victory. Current source does not say anything about this. What I found is that Chavez said this: "President of Venezuela Hugo Chavez congratulated his compatriot Pastor Maldonado with victory at the Spanish Grand Prix, which it first in Formula 1. The Maldonado became the first Venezuelan to win the Royal stage races. “Our Pastor Maldonado won, he creates a history. Bravo Pastor! Congratulations to you and all your battle team! We shall overcome!” - wrote in his Tweeter Chavez." Haken arizona (talk) 03:03, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Again, you need to back up what you say with sources. This seems to be a recurring problem for you. You need to understand what qualifies as a valid source—you cannot add content on the back of a specious source, and you cannot remove content that you think is questionable without demonstrating that it is specious. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:01, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Surely it shouldn't be too difficult to find a list of Venezuelan public holidays, now should it? Tvx1 (talk) 16:58, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- This (for 2012) and this (for 2014) would class as reliable sources, and there is nothing unexpected in either of them. —Gyaro–Maguus— 17:11, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm pretty certain things like declaring a national day for some event are not the same as a national holiday. They are not annual occurances, so I'm not sure what that source proves. The359 (Talk) 17:46, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- The source currently used to include this note in the article literally states public holiday. Tvx1 (talk) 18:20, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm pretty certain things like declaring a national day for some event are not the same as a national holiday. They are not annual occurances, so I'm not sure what that source proves. The359 (Talk) 17:46, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- This (for 2012) and this (for 2014) would class as reliable sources, and there is nothing unexpected in either of them. —Gyaro–Maguus— 17:11, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Surely it shouldn't be too difficult to find a list of Venezuelan public holidays, now should it? Tvx1 (talk) 16:58, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Here is the source from Argentina on a day that Maldonado won Spanish GP, it says nothing about national day declaration http://www.diario26.com/chavez-felicito-a-maldonado-por-el-triunfo-en-la-formula-1-bravo-pastor-venceremos-151761.html . All Chavez did is congratulate Maldonado on a victory. If chavez did something as absurd of declaring national day for the elitist sport event he would be ridiculed across latin American media. I can't find anything, any source. Haken arizona (talk) 18:01, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- A news article not mentioning it is not proof that it did not happen. The359 (Talk) 18:15, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Please provide any source for that then. If special day was declared in Venezuela then there would be something out there.Haken arizona (talk) 05:04, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- This is the source currently used in the article. We also had a statement from a reporter on Twitter. What more sources do you need? The359 (Talk) 05:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Knowing Haken arizona, one that agrees with him. Even if we have the most reliable, unshakeable source in the world that says it happened, he will still take a specious and contradictory source over it because it agrees with him. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:48, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- And that source literally states public holiday. Yet the sources —Gyaro–Maguus— has provided mention no such holiday. I understand both sides' thinking. But I really feel the evidence is a bit thin at the moment. I'd really prefer us to have some additional sources to further confirm this. It doesn't hurt to add an additional source. And furthermore, I'm still not convinced this information is important for a season article in the first place. Tvx1 (talk) 16:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Tvx1, the source says "ESPN staff" but they probably got their source from rumor rather than a fact.Haken arizona (talk) 21:04, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Your problem is that probably is not good enough to remove it. Your own suspicions can not supersede what has been documented. There are very good reasons why wikipedia relies upon sourced documentation rather than editors opinions. --Falcadore (talk) 23:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- Something you (and Prisonermonkeys) should note, the two have you swapped positions compared to the Russian Grand Prix crowd debate. There you were the one with the sources and PM believed they were insufficient, now PM is on the side of the sourced references and you are the one believing they are not accurate enough. --Falcadore (talk) 00:02, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Tvx1, the source says "ESPN staff" but they probably got their source from rumor rather than a fact.Haken arizona (talk) 21:04, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- I am not doing any further editing, I am debating this source. I found the source questionable because I can't seem to find any Venezuelan news report on it. Not I can find any Colombian news report about it and they are known for ridiculing Chavez.Haken arizona (talk) 17:58, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
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