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Please delete this page

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The yellow crescent flag that is shown on this page is highly anachronistic. The Mughal Empire had no real flag one now expects all political entitites to have. If a flag is to be shown for the Mughals, it should be their fish banner, similar to the fish emblem of the Nawabs of Awadh that one sees throughout Mughal miniatures depicting Mughal armies. In the same way that the Roman Empire had no real flag, but perhaps could be represented by their eagle standard, so the Mughal Empire could be symbolized by the fish banner, although personally I find it highly unneccessary, and quite frankly misleading.

An encyclopedia should inform its readers of the truth, not give them versions of the truth that the reader is expecting. That is to say, just because someone wants to know what the Mughal flag looks like, doesn't mean we should give them the closest approximation to a flag. Instead we should simply note that there was no standard symbolism used by the Mugahls.

I would like to see any sort of scholarship supporting this flag. I have never, in all my years of studying Mughal miniatures seen anything that even vaguely resembles this blatant fiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahassan05 (talk • contribs) 22:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The crescent flag is no longer shown and the sources quoted for the lion and sun flag seem pretty authoritative. Strangely the flag depicted here is not used for the page for Akbar or the Mughal Empire. Perhaps this can be corrected? --Azeem Ali (talk) 14:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Cheers, Pædia 21:49, 28 September 2010(UTC)

The lion

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According to A Voyage to East-India (1655) [1][2], the lion is couchant, "couching". Khadi Dyers & Printers also describes the lion as "couching", but their flag shows it as statant (standing). Pædia 20:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Gold Mohur (coin) of Jahangir, with his portrait, 1611.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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An image used in this article, File:Gold Mohur (coin) of Jahangir, with his portrait, 1611.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests October 2011
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Fictional flags redux?

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(moved from User talk:Sitush on 19:07, 27 February 2015 (UTC))[reply]

Possibly. Have to rush off at the moment, but can you (or your tpsers) take a look at

and many others currently used in Indian history related infoboxes (see the flags being added/replaced in recent edits by User:Pktlaurence). As previously, there probably are sourcing/OR/WP:INFOBOXFLAG issues with some of these flags, although I haven't checked thoroughly enough yet. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 21:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Abecedare: sorry for the delay in responding - I am somewhat despondent with this place right now, as I think you are aware. I'll certainly take a look at these issues but it might not be before the weekend. - Sitush (talk) 00:51, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This whole area requires a deeper look. For example we have an article on Flag of the Mughal Empire which essentially cites/includes three sources:
  • This image
  • This image
  • And this description (not a reliable source but at least roughly right): "Against a green field it displayed a rising sun, partially eclipsed by a body of a couching lion facing the hoist"
all of which are inconsistent with the flag-images I linked above showing a striding, as opposed to a couchant lion (see images here or here for more likely design(s)). So the flags being used on wikipedia are not only unsourced but also probably simply wrong, and wikipedia has helped spread this misinformation all over the web. And that's just a quick analysis of one flag; innumerable such fictional flags, dreamed up by a random wikipedian, are all over Indian history pages. Will devote some time this weekend to clan up some of the mess.
Also pinging @RegentsPark: for input, and wishing that User:Fowler&fowler were still active. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 17:29, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt if there was such a thing as a 'flag of the mughal empire'. The empire spanned almost 400 years and there must have been numerous versions of the emperors battle standard, not to mention the temporal variety in the flags that the various armies (since the mughal empire relied heavily on vassal armies for its military ventures) must have carried. Frankly, we should just delete the whole lot. Perhaps just go around removing them with unsourced edit summaries and then starting a discussion if someone objects. --regentspark (comment) 21:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have just removed the triangular Mughal flag from a small number of articles. Let's see what happens over the next 24 hours or so, and then perhaps remove another batch. - Sitush (talk) 13:07, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This comes as a rude shock to me. While I joined here, I spent time reading/editing these related articles and remember noticing that flag in almost all infoboxes. I just took it for granted that it was legit. So the main flag is mainly based on kdpindia.com and is ...quite off the mark compared to cited sources. I just removed it from the main Mughal Empire. I'm moving this discussion to Talk:Flag of the Mughal Empire. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 19:05, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm more interested in establishing a flag of the Mughal empire with a couchant lion, if you guys agree and putting out there, the book source you gave is marvelous since it included a picture which could be what we can base off. The same how Mamluk Sultanate has a flag based on a book. I will try and contact the flag creators and tell them to change and put it back up here. RussianDewey (talk) 09:42, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that there is consensus that the lion should be couchant, but even with this change, would either the triangular or square flag be well-enough accepted for use as the Mughal flag? It seems that even the few sources that exist are in quite serious conflict with one another about the shape of the flag, size of the lion, background etc. The first source doesn't even appear to show the lion, unless I'm going blind. Clearly the two vector versions are based on the first and third source, but I don't see that either would be particularly encyclopedic even if the lion was fixed. Am I wrong in this assumption? In the event that I am, I recommend that a request be made at the graphics lab for a viable alternative image, or for alterations to one of the existing ones. NikNaks talk - gallery 15:47, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@NikNaks: Your observation is exactly right (ie matches mine :) ). None of the designs portrayed above or in the gallery in the article are the Mughal flag. So we should not arbitrarily select any one of them and start projecting it as an universal banner of the empire all throughout wikipedia. We are better off discussing and illustrating that variation in this article devoted to the subject, and for that purpose I believe historical images are more suitable than an idealized SVG graphic. Abecedare (talk) 15:57, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seems unfair that the Mughal don't get a flag while the Ottomans get a flag from their decline period as a representative of their whole period and so are other empires in Wikipedia. RussianDewey (talk) 01:16, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The distinction seems to lie in the fact that the Ottoman Empire adopted an official flag in the 19th century, and there are clear historical sources showing variations of ensigns before that. We don't seem to have either for the Mughals. NikNaks talk - gallery 10:55, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Many things of the Mughal Empire is hard to source, but the flags used in height of the power was enough or me, based on manuscripts and Western authors who vised Miughal Documenting such ensign. Maybe we can can name the flag during a specifc period. RussianDewey (talk) 16:15, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

RussianDewey, can you clarify which exact flag you are talking about and which years exactly was it in use as "the Mughal flag"? If you have reliable sources for such claims, we can add them to the article and also use the flag image on other Mughal related pages corresponding to those years. Of course, we still wouldn't be able to use the flag image for periods before it was adopted and after it potentially fell into disuse, since that would be misinformative. Fwiw, I have looked for sources for such information, and haven't found anything definite yet. Abecedare (talk) 16:26, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you scrutinizing the Mughals so much, isn't it hard their flag page of a great Empire is extremely dull. The sources posted on the article itself is sufficient for me to warrant a creation of flags and some people did, two flags seem evident for me, Jahangir and Shah Jahan used Lion and Sun, while Aurangzeb and Bahadur Shah II used the flag with only a sun. I see fit that we create the lion and sun to the correct version, while the sun only version is already created RussianDewey (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 01:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Added new flags that you guys might like to be interested in. I noticed how the flags look very different during times of peace and war, these span 7 years, 1631 there was a WAR in Kandahar while 1638 there was PEACE. These might be the earliest flag I could find right now. I found them by accident, but the red/green color with the lion standing and facing left is very interesting. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:04, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Flag as soon as possibble

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This row involving the Flag of the Mughal Empire, should be solved so we can all have an official flag we can work with. It was one of the most important flags especially in the history of South Asia.

In my own view the usage of the lion in the flag represents Ali the Sun represents Muhammad, in a very Sufi manner that will hold much regards in the hearts of millions. 468Shahi (talk) 02:57, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As discussed above, and as is apparent from the artistic depictions over the centuries there is no single "Flag of the Mughal Empire". Rather there are different emblems, banners and standards used for different purposes and at different times. This article can summarize what has been said about the topic by scholarly sources (which we have not yet found enough of), but there is no remit for us to "resolve" the issue and settle on a single design, or interpretation of any of the designs. Abecedare (talk) 03:16, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can't find the miniature titled "Siege of the fort Dharur"

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"Siege of the fort Dharur" from her royal majesty collection contains flags of the Mughal Empire during Shah-Jahan. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 05:35, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Return of the flag

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The flag has returned after a long hiatus Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:04, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Would you please be more descriptive as to why you did this? You've added the very same flag minus that couchant lion: This previous discussion Talk:Flag_of_the_Mughal_Empire#Fictional_flags_redux.3F shows consensus against its use.
Is it sourced? Both the images you've added file:The siege of Qandahar (May 1631).jpg and File:The_Surrender_of_Kandahar.jpg show a different flag. In the article, the given source talks about the flag with a lion. I thought we agreed that there was no consistent flag, not enough to warrant adding it to the infobox to say at least. See WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 05:22, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The manuscripts are the source, siege of Qandahar had the rising sun flag if you noticed it on the top right corner, Shah Jahan still used employed the sun and lion flag, on the surrender, the flag was a peace flag. Consensus were never reached, and the consensus is outdated as I have new manuscripts in the gallery. There was a consistent flag after a period of time from late 17th century till early 19th century. Go back to the Ottoman Empire and Safavid Empire flags and you will see the same thing. There is nothing exceptional here. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 07:58, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you're referring to those images which I posted above as the manuscripts; know that they are primary sources. It's not our job to interpret them as that would be WP:OR. BTW in both those images, there's a different flag so I don't know we can just present one of them as the whole official flag. Clarify by what you mean by Ottoman and Safavid empire, are you implying that since they have it, it should be here too? Ugog Nizdast (talk) 11:05, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Alexis, note that medieval manuscripts are primary sources and are therefore not reliable sources. If that was indeed the flag of the Mughal Empire then, doubtless, there are modern reliable sources that attest to that. Please provide those modern reliable sources. --regentspark (comment) 17:24, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is no source I'm aware that talks about the Mughal flag in great detail, please send it to me if you have one, so I can digest it, we will use the sources we have at our hands which is the manuscripts Alexis Ivanov (talk) 18:40, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely. There is no source. No source = No flag. --regentspark (comment) 20:34, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The manuscript is the source. Therefore source = there is a flag. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:47, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The manuscript is a primary source. Primary source not = source. --regentspark (comment) 13:24, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You just said SOURCE, we will use such sources in our hands. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 23:02, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The flag of the Mughal Empire is probably not the right page name. It might need to be changed to Flags of the Mughal emperors (or some such). Here are some sources, but I don't know that they identify a flag of the empire. It may be the flag of a ruler. Whatever you do, don't simply copy a flag and reproduce it here. You will need to carefully look at the notes accompanying the paintings, whether they say anything about the flag, and, if so, what. Please also don't reproduce the flag on the Mughal Empire page.

  • Moin, A. Azfar (2012), The Millennial Sovereign: Sacred Kingship and Sainthood in Islam, Columbia University Press, p. 221, ISBN 978-0-231-16036-0

    (Page 221) "In the Mughal case too there had remained a sustained focus on the sun." Humayun had identified himself with the sun while orchestrating his courtly theater. Akbar's court rituals had also revolved around the sun. He is said to have memorized 1,001 names of the sun in Sanskrit, and his Millennial History listed Arabic prayers to the sun composed by Abu Ma'shar, the father of Islamic astrology." The sun, along with the moon, had featured prominently in Jahangir's "talismanic" images as a halo framing the emperor." In a similar vein, Shah Jahan's astrologers emphasized numerological connections between the emperor's name, the name of Timur, the title Lord of Conjunction, and the number of days in the cycle of the sun." From paintings, we know that Shah Jahan's army carried a flag emblazoned with the symbol of the sun on a lion's back, a reference perhaps to the horoscope of the ideal ruler."37(footnote 37: This could have represented the planet of the sun in the house of Leo. A flag with this symbol is seen in the Padshahnama painting reproduced in Beach, Koch, and Thackston, King of the World, 87)

  • Beach, Milo Cleveland; Koch, Ebba; Thackston, Wheeler M. (Arthur M. Sackler Gallery Smithsonian Institution) (1997), King of the World: The Padshahnama : an Imperial Mughal Manuscript from the Royal Library, Windsor Castle, Azimuth Editions, ISBN 978-0-500-97448-3
  • Wright, Elaine Julia; Stronge, Susan (2008), Muraqqaʻ Imperial Mughal Albums from the Chester Beatty Library, Dublin, Art Services International, ISBN 978-0-88397-154-3
  • Guy, John; Britschgi, Jorrit (2011), Wonder of the Age: Master Painters of India, 1100-1900, Metropolitan Museum of Art, ISBN 978-1-58839-430-9
  • Welch, Stuart Cary (1987), The Emperors' Album: Images of Mughal India, Metropolitan Museum of Art, ISBN 978-0-87099-499-9 (Available in Full View on Google Books)
  • Jha, Sadan (2016), Reverence, Resistance and Politics of Seeing the Indian National Flag, Cambridge University Press, p. 40, ISBN 978-1-107-11887-4 (See Peter Mundy contemporaneous account on page 40, which mentions the lion couchant; however, this has very little commentary by the author of the book, so the description is still a primary source, and can't be used.) This is about all I can do, but if you search diligently, you'll find references. You will probably need to go to a big (academic) library to locate some of these books. Good luck. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:56, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the sources, I will be writing them down and analyzing in the near future. Also a man known as "Uma Prasad Thapliyal" has written a book in late 30s discussing the Indian flag in his book "The dhvaja, standards and flags of India : a study" and he released a new book in 2011 called "Military flags of India : from the earliest times", these books are hard to come by in my area but I have to adapt and visit a large library. In the last BOOK I mentioned, I think we can hit the jackpot, it is literally a book focused on flags and it's my top priority in acquiring. In a website it says "Chapter VII deals with the flags in medieval India covering the Rajput, Sultanate and Mughal dynasties. This period is also marked by the introduction of new symbols in line with Islamic tenets." Alexis Ivanov (talk) 23:16, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Delete template?

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Moved from Template talk:Country data Mughal Empire
 – Deleted venue.

As has been discussed several times earlier, there is no reliable sourcing for being "the flag" of the Mughal Empire. So both the image and the transclusions of this template can and should be removed from article-space. Given that, should this template be retained or simply deleted? Pinging @Fowler&fowler, Ugog Nizdast, and RegentsPark: who have participated in previous discussions. Abecedare (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just realized that this has been discussed previously and the consensus was to delete this template. It was recreated albeit with instead of as the claimed Mughal flag, which does not address any of the issues raised at the deletion discussion. Should be eligible for WP:G4 although I'll wait for a bit before making any formal nomination. Abecedare (talk) 14:16, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Abecedare, alright just delete it. I wasn't aware of that discussion. PadFoot (talk) 14:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tagged for speedy deletion. Abecedare (talk) 15:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with @Abecedare:.
A flag, perhaps, may have been used at the head of a Mughal army, or on the emperor's birthday in ceremonial parades, but the limited evidence seems to suggest there might have been many different flags in the same parade, view one parade during the reign of Bahadur Shah Zafar (or II) during the late 1840s: here and here. Besides paintings will not pass muster at WP:RS
The palace seemed to have no flags (view here)
But which emperor, let alone one with fine-nerved aesthetic feelings such as Zafar, was not aware that Mughal works were a part of the world's heritage, lying far beyond the sovereignty of nations, though flags they very much do fly today? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Abecedare: Thanks, but please do preserve this discussion somewhere. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fowler&fowler: I think it will be useful for you to copy the relevant material from your above post to Talk:Flags of the Mughal Empire#Return of the flag since that is the more likely place one would look for previous discussions the next time this issue (inevitably) crops up. Nice to see you around! Abecedare (talk) 15:42, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
moved to this talk page for propensity. – robertsky (talk) 17:26, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shamsa

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The Alam of the Mughal Empire contains within it a Shamsa most probably that which was introduced and patronized by Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb.

For many the Alam served as a religious symbol rather than a political symbol of the absolute monarchy of the Mughal Empire. Fjgdh5 (talk)\~~ —Preceding undated comment added 02:46, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tughra

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It is very likely that the Rights of the Mughal Empire will be found within the "Shamsa"... Fjgdh5 (talk) 02:50, 13 February 2019 (UTC)\Fjgdh5 (talk)[reply]

Lion and Sun Flag

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The flag with the sun and the lion was used by the Mughals. I verified it from following sources-

The flag of the Mughal empire is a rectangular green triangular banner with a lion in front of a sun, both motifs being gold. It is surrounded by red.

The first two carry the lion with the sun behind it. Lion (or "Babur" in Persian, the lingua franca of the empire) was also the name of the founder of the Empire, Zaheer-ud Deen Muhammad Babur.

The Lion and Sun is an old Persian emblem that was re-used by the Mughals that identify strongly with Persian culture.

The Mughal Empire had a number of imperial flags and standards. The principal imperial standard of the Mughals displayed a lion and sun. The Mughals traced their use of this flag back to Timur [19]. About the historical Persian flags, it can help us the Encyclopaedia Iranica website [20]. Both the Sun and Golden Lion are symbols of kingship and royalty 

The principal imperial standard of the Mughals was known as the alam (Alam علم). It was primarily moss green.[1] It displayed a lion and sun (Shir-u-khurshid شیر و خورشید‎) facing the hoist of the flag. The Mughals traced their use of the alam back to Timur.[2]

Fictional Flag

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Somebody uploaded the flag image with that name (Fictional flag of the Mughal Empire).

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