Talk:Function (music)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Removed: Meantone

I removed the following

• Diatonic functionality cannot be defined in pure equal temperament terms, but it can, however, be defined in meantone terms. Diatonic functionality for music tuned to equal temperament can be thought of as deriving from equal temperament as a tuning of logical, or abstract, meantone. That is, it is basic to the diatonic scale and diatonic functionality that four fifths up and two octaves down gives a major third, and that the supertonic or ii chord is both in a relation of a fifth above the dominant, or V chord, and a minor third below the subdominant, or IV chord. This entails the presence of logical meantone, but diatonic functionality does not assume other characteristic structural features of equal temperament.

I don't think this is true or correct, but more importantly I think it is not relevant. Hyacinth 12:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Unreadable

I find the introduction particularly repulsive, whereas it should be the most accessible section. "Excercise"? You mean "exercise"? And if so, what do you mean? Where does Wilson's quote start? I would do with a few wikilinks, because using Google for each word/expression and failing to find meaningful hits is a very frustrating way to attempt to read an article that I should have some familiarity with. Also I don't like the title ("Diatonic functionality"), because it suggests "feature". I propose "Diatonic functions" instead. Thanks. PizzaMargherita 02:12, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

We might debate the title change, but for everything else, wade right in and fix it. —Wahoofive (talk) 04:30, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I can only fix what I understand, sorry. Your revised version of the intro (circa April 2005) read much better. PizzaMargherita 08:31, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

PM, please see Talk:Diatonic_function#Difficult_to_read as an example of how we can improve the article. To answer your questions so far:

• There is no Wilson quote. I have simply summarized his information and sited the source.
• I moved the article to "Diatonic function" per your request and on the principle that "diatonic function" is simpler and thus preferrable to "diatonic functionality". However, functionality is a "feature" and music which uses diatonic fucntions may also be described as using functional tonality (meaning the same thing).
• Looking at Special:Search/Excercise this is quite the common misspelling. Exercise is what was meant, however, and was meant in the sense of use, performance, practice, or "the act of bringing into play or realizing in action" ([1]). I use the word after Wilson.

Wahoofive's version of the introduction is at[2] (I assume). Note that this information is still in the article as the first paragraph of the first section Diatonic_function#Diatonic_functions_of_notes. Hyacinth 13:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed

• "Generally speaking, the most important notes are the members of the tonic triad: the tonic, the mediant and the dominant. All other notes are understood to have some relation to those notes. The leading tone, for example, the seventh scale degree, has a significance of being a half-step below the tonic and has a tendency to resolve there. The fourth scale degree, the subdominant, has a tendency to resolve to the third degree, the mediant."

I removed the above paragraph as I would argue the most important notes are the tonic, dominant, and subdominant and that, for example, the fourth scale degree relates more importantly and directly to the tonic as the subdominant than to the mediant as an upper leading tone. Hyacinth 12:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Equivalency vs equivalence

Is it common practice in musical theory to use e.g. "transpositional equivalency" instead of "transpositional equivalence", or even better "equivalence under transposition" or similar? Otherwise it looks like we want to use pompous terms only because they look cool... PizzaMargherita 08:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Please tone down your language. Calling the article introduction "repulsive" is amusingly over the top. Calling contributors pompous is inappropriate. Please see: Wikipedia:No personal attacks ("Comment on content, not on the contributor"). Hyacinth 13:45, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

"Repulsive" as in repelling readers who don't already know the subject. "Exoteric", if you prefer.

"Pompous" was also not referred to any contributor, but to content. PizzaMargherita 13:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah, repulsive may make sense, though this puts this article in league with almost any on a technical or scientific subject. Hyacinth 14:43, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is "pompous" about adverbs or the suffix "-ly". Perhaps the grammar is incorrect, but this is hardly pompous. Lastly the purpose of phrasing it that way on this page is that Transpositional equivalency redirects to Transposition (music) while Transpositional equivalence didn't (until just now). Hyacinth 12:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

German and US systems

For the love of God, separate the explanations of the German and US systems. They shouldn't be constantly compared as they're being explained. Explain each, and then compare. I already know about this stuff and I can't even follow some parts.

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 20:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking. I don't know this stuff, and I can't follow anything trying to keep track of both systems at the same time. --24.59.119.198 22:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Diatonic and chromatic

The article uses the term "diatonic" extensively, but without adequate explanation. This term, along with "chromatic", is the cause of serious uncertainties at several other Wikipedia articles, and in the broader literature. Some of us thought that both terms needed special coverage, so we started up a new article: Diatonic and chromatic. Why not have a look, and join the discussion? Be ready to have comfortable assumptions challenged! – Noetica^♬♩ Talk 22:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Tonic Counter Parallel

Dear all, I tried to edit the section "Diatonic functions of notes and chords" but it was reverted.

Supertonic ii Subdominant parallel/Tonic counter parallel Sp/tKp

the ii chord (supertonic) is NOT a tonic counter parallel. From what I understand, a parallel or counterparallel must be a 3rd away from the reference chord, and the supertonic is not a 3rd away from the tonic. Please let me know if this is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Microcosmmm (talk • contribs) 01:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Microcosmmm (talk) 01:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Providing an Wikipedia:Edit summary in the future may help prevent your edits from being undone. If you check the counter parallel article it disagrees with you in regards to minor keys, though it lacks sources. Do you have a source you can cite? Hyacinth (talk) 03:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

ok, I read the counter parallel page very carefully. It does not explicitly state that the ii chord in either a major or minor key is a tonic counter parallel. I'm only seeing it as a subdominant parallel - which makes sense to me. I only have an internet source to site, http://cazoo.org/music/harmony.html it's probably not the most credible thing on earth, but it makes sense to me. Now, I have read in jazz theory, that a ii chord can substitute a I chord (particularly in the chord progression John Coltrane made famous, starting with a I in "Giant Steps" and a ii in the tune Countdown http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltrane_changes). Maybe that's what y'all mean? I'd love to see an example in standard western classical music. I find it to be more "modal" than "tonal" though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Microcosmmm (talk • contribs) 05:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Microcosmmm (talk) 05:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Major and minor are different. According to counter parallel, the counter parallel of the tonic in major is iii while the counter parallel differs in minor, being ii. Hyacinth (talk) 08:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

to quote the article: "In a minor key the intervals are reversed: the tonic parallel (e.g. Eb in Cm) is a minor third above, and the counter parallel (e.g. Ab in Cm) is a major third below. Both the parallel and the counter parallel have two notes in common with the tonic (Am and C share C & E; Em and C share E & G)."

I still don't see the ii chord being a tonic counter parallel. It doesn't share any notes with the tonic - and the article says that the bIV chord (the Ab in the key of Cm), not the ii chord, is the tonic counterparallel in minor. Please directly quote where the ii chord in major or minor is the tonic counterparallel.Microcosmmm (talk) 18:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right, I confused sP and Sp. Thanks. Hyacinth (talk) 05:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Functions in the minor mode

The paragraph under this heading should be placed in context. Unfree (talk) 20:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Baffling

I find the last sentence of the passage quoted below quite baffling. What does it mean?

• 'Functions in the minor mode

In the US the minor mode or scale is considered a variant of the major, while in German theory it is often considered, per Riemann, the inversion of the major. In the late eighteenth-early nineteenth centuries a large amount of symmetrical chords and relations known as "dualistic" harmony. The root of a major chord is its bass note in first inversion or normal form at the bottom of a third and fifth, but, symmetrically, the root of a major chord is the US fifth of a first inversion minor chord, and the US root is the "fifth".' yoyo 11:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

In addition, the second sentence in the quote (starting "In the late eighteenth-early nineteenth centuries") has no main verb, which makes it less than perspicuous. Tom Duff 20:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, "inversion" is used in two quite different ways in that paragraph. As for the first usage, calling a minor key (whether the relative minor or the other one, the one sharing the same keynote) an "inversion," that's news to me, but plausible.

In the next sentence, I wonder whether "symmetrical" means mirror-image, referring to the relationship, for example, between a C triad and an A-minor triad, which looks like a C triad on a piano keyboard when it's viewed through a mirror, the E being immediately adjacent to the group of two black keys, like the C in the normal view. Beats me.

But the third sentence makes sense when you call the "first" inversion the inversion which isn't inverted at all, that is, a plain triad. Then "normal form" makes sense, and (in a C triad) C could be considered "the bass note" or "the root," and indeed it is "at the bottom of" a "third" (the C-E third, or the third of the chord) and a "fifth" (the C-G fifth, or the fifth of the chord).

But the second half of the sentence has me stumped. Perhaps it means that C (the root of a C triad) also happens to be the fifth of the triad built on the E below it, which is, indeed, minor -- but why does he say it twice, shifting only the "US"? Unfree (talk) 21:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The passage still remains baffling garbage two years after above comments. "The root of a major chord is its bass note in first inversion or normal form at the bottom of a third and fifth," No, the root of a major chord (or any chord for that matter) is its bass note in ROOT position, NOT in first inversion. If that is not what the author meant to say then it's author should please clarity. RichardJ Christie (talk) 10:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

If you want assistance or improvements perhaps you shouldn't throw around insults ("baffling garbage"). Hyacinth (talk) 02:53, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

What function?

I thought I was learning something new when reading this article. It appeared at first as though I was learning about the psychological effect certain things have on the ear of the listener, known by a new and unfamiliar term, "diatonic function." But now that I think it over, it occurs to me that this might be a rather elaborate article simply about the role a note plays in a chord, or the role a chord plays in the context of a diatonic key, called by a name ("Diatonic function") I hadn't heard before. I wonder, Which is it? Something profound or mundane? In a C triad, G is "the fifth." That's its function in the chord. Is that sort of thing all this article is about? Unfree (talk) 20:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

So, to answer your question, it really is just about notes in chords, and chords in scales. What makes it interesting is that built into a major scale is tendencies that are built-in to the notes in the scale for a note to "resolve" upward or downward. For instance, the note B in the C major scale has a stronger tendency to resolve upward to a C than fall downward to an A. Especially if this note is in a G major chord, which is the Dominant (V) chord in the key. The reason Dominant (G major) tends to go to Tonic (C major) is this built in "diatonic function." Another note in the C scale which tends to resolve a certain way is F, which commonly resolves downward to E. The 4th and 7th scale degrees (F and B in the key of C major) are the important "tendency tones."

Here's an excerpt from a book I'm writing, called Music Theory for Anyone:

"Functionality applies when one intends to use the chords functionally. A chord progression does not have to follow the rules of functionality. The blues form exhibits "regression" from V to IV and uses non-functional dominant seventh chords. Chords, when not used functionally, can be used motivically, in parallelism, or merely for "color." But, for one with the intention of modulating to another key, or establishing simple tonal stability, it is valuable to understand chord function.

The key to grasping functionality is understanding the process of moving from stability, increasing tension, and finally releasing this tension. Tonic, Pre-dominant, Dominant, Tonic (T-P-D-T) is the traditional music theory paradigm which mirrors the above process. Here's an analogy I like to use: "A tonic chord is enjoying the comfort of being in your own home. Moving to a pre-dominant chord is stepping outside of your house to somewhere relatively safe, but you are no longer in the comfort of your own home. The dominant chord is the crisis; something happens and we are at the height of tension. Fortunately, we solve the problem; were able to resolve back to the tonic and go home safe and sound." Microcosmmm (talk) 06:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

"Some may at first be put off by the overt theorizing apparent in German harmony...Yet this ongoing conflict between antithetical theories, with its attendant uncertainties and complexities, has special merits. In particular, whereas an English-speaking student may falsely believe that he or she is learning harmony 'as it really is,' the German student encounters what are obviously theoretical constructs and must deal with them accordingly." - Gjerdingen (1990). Hyacinth (talk) 12:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this article is difficult to read. Forcing the pov of Rameau in Riemann doesnt make sense. The multiple functions names should be exposed, at least, in comparison in the first chart (minor and major together). Furthermore, Riemann doesnt know any supertonic or subtonic, mediant or submediant, etc. Have a look at my article in http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonction_(musique) and feel free to inspire. I am not so good in english for a wiki-worth translation.

On the top, I see in the web that more and more often, practical harmony is named functional harmony, this is worth a point in the article. Pipecat (talk) 18:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Diatonic function, harmonic function, tonal function?

I wanted to make a few simplifications in the lead of this article (I fail to figure out what a statement like this: "A fourth feature is the ambiguity that arises from the use of the same terms to describe functions across all temporal spans of a hierarchical structure from the surface to the deepest level, and that the longer term or deeper functions act as a center for shorter higher level ones and that the functions of each tend to counteract each other" might possibly mean), but soon stumbled over another problem.

This article appears to be about what may better be called "harmonic" or "tonal" functions. I don't think that Riemann, who is correctly presented as the originator of the concept, ever spoke of diatonic functions. It is true that the tonality of which we are speaking is diatonic, but it seems to me that "diatonic functions" must be something quite different, that people today may perhaps call "diatonic qualia"...

At any rate, it seems that the article should be renamed either "Harmonic function" or "Tonal function". At present, Tonal function redirects here, but I think that it should be the other way around. Harmonic function (which deals with mathematical functions) refers to Diatonic functionality, which in turn also redirects here. Although I am myself convinced that diatonic functions properly speaking do exist (along the lines drawn by Jacques Handschin in Der Toncharakter, or the medieval descriptions of the qualitas or the mode of notes), I think that the time is not yet ripe for an article on these functions: the references would be missing.

Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 10:49, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing up this question. I have been wondering for a long time why the article bears this title, instead of "tonal" or "harmonic" function, which were the only terms I had come across before finding this on Wikipedia. Since "harmonic function" is already taken for the mathematical sense, it seems reasonable to rename this article "Tonal function", unless someone can come up with a strong argument for keeping the current title. As for that impenetrable sentence, it ought to be nominated for some sort of award for obfuscation.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:35, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 13 October 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED.(non-admin closure) Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:55, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

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Diatonic function → Tonal function – The name "diatonic function" does not appear to be used anywhere else than on WP; in addition, it may be considered misleading. Harmonic functions (which might by another possible title for this article, but already taken for the mathematical usage) are found and make sense only in tonal music. Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 20:38, 13 October 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. GeoffreyT2000 (talk, contribs) 17:23, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. The term is widely used, albeit in a specialised area. I get 2400 ghits excluding Wikipedia and our compliant mirrors. Andrewa (talk) 04:59, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Query: In what specialised area do you find this term? Does it have to do with what is called "functional harmony" in music, or something entirely unrelated?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:28, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
    • I only looked at the first two pages of the 2400 ghits, but they were all relevant (do your results vary?). The current title also seems to me to describe the topic far better than the proposed title, but that's probably because it was a standard term when I studied (and performed) experimental music back in the late 1960s... and of course I'm not a reliable source. Anyway, the claim that the term does not appear to be used anywhere else than on WP surprised me, and still does having now done a little research. Not you? Andrewa (talk) 17:15, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
      • I cannot see the list you generated, but when I try to replicate it, I get about 3700 hits (including Wikipedia and its mirrors), most of which have the two words separately rather than together, and most of which also include the expression "functional harmony", which was the only term I was familiar with when I studied and performed experimental music back in the middle 1960s through the late 1970s. Perhaps it is a national thing, since my studies were in the US rather than Australia?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:33, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
        • My (European) Google gives about 3750 ghits for "diatonic function" (with quotation marks, which excludes the separate words) and 6660 for "tonal function"; but many of these results point to web sites which could hardly be accepted as valid references. Scholar Google gives 74 hits for "diatonic function" and 1300 for "tonal function"; Google books gives 99 and 1380 respectively. One may conclude that "tonal function" is more than ten times more common in serious sources. Let me add that in 50 years of career as a professional music theorist, I had never seen the expression "diatonic function". But my career, it is true, was not in English. The keywords "Fonction diatonique" and "Fonction tonale" (in French) give respectively, on Google: 114/1540 hits; on Google Books: 0/155; on Scholar Google: 0/114. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 17:54, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
          • My Google was a simple "diatonic function" -Wikipedia and now gives me About 2,450 results (0.39 seconds) and the first two pages gave 19 ghits, some web, some books, all looking relevant enough to seriously challenge your conclusion above that the term does not appear to be used anywhere else than on WP, in my opinion. I asked whether the contributor to whom I was replying agreed with that, and note that there has been no reply. Your research now seems to indicate that both terms are common, does it not? The question then becomes, which is the better article title? Andrewa (talk) 23:43, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
        • My teacher (or rather performance leader)... whose name I cannot remember!.. had worked in England with Cornelius Cardew, but we seem to have both sides of the Atlantic represented here so that can't be it. Andrewa (talk) 23:50, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose—A diatonic scale is a seven-note scale in which two semitones are maximally separated; this includes the pre-tonal church modes. "Tonal function" would refer to ... function (sounds vague) ... during the tonal period in which a central triad, not a central note, is the centripetal force (approx. 1600–1900, give or take a few decades). Tony (talk) 10:37, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Query: Tony, can you quote if only one single published reference to "diatonic functions in church modes"? You'd find in the specialized litterature some (scant) references to "hexachordal functions", but that is not what this paper is about. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 17:10, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

    Are you really suggesting that the church modes are not diatonic??? I suppose I could go to a kids' music textbook. I've never thought of having to justify something so fundamental. Tony (talk) 10:32, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

I never suggested such a thing, Tony. On the contrary, I would even agree that "Diatonic functions" exist in Church modes. I only mean that such an idea is not documented in the literature. I personally understand it quite differently from "tonal" or "harmonic" functions. To make things short (because this is not our present topic), I believe that in Church modes, there is a conflict between "diatonic functions" (more often described as "hexachordal functions", say, the function inherent in a mi, a fa, an ut, etc, which are properties of the diatonic system, whatever the mode) and what might be called "modal functions" (say, the function of being the final, or the reciting note, etc.). The conflict is that the modal function of, say, final, may fall on the diatonic function of mi, or fa, etc. I am presently engaged in scholarly discussions about this with specialists, but the only thing I could say here is that none of this is ripe for inclusion in WP. See also below. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 13:23, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Hucbald, I understood some of the tech you described, but it goes a little beyond my knowledge. I'm a little concerned about what "function" actually means to readers. And is there a need (in the article lead?) to clarify harmonic vs melodic? Is the scenario different for monophony? Tony (talk) 02:34, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

This is a quite complex question, Tony. The idea that individual notes may have a function is not generally shared (not that I know, at least), and I think that the article maintains some confusion between the names given to the degrees of the tonal scale (tonic, supertonic, mediant, etc.) and the names of the functions – which belong to chords. The difference is clear in Riemann's theory, because there are only three functions for seven degrees: the function of dominant for instance can be exerted by the 5th degree (the dominant), the 7th (the leading tone) and in some cases the 3d (the mediant). It was not immediately obvious, in the 19th and early 20th century, that what is called the "theory of the degrees" (Stufentheorie, the Viennese theory) could also be considered a theory of functions. This may have been an American development. Walter Piston (1941), for instance, writes "Each scale degree has its part in the scheme of tonality, its tonal function" [tonal function!]. But the context shows that for Piston, "degree" here means "root", subsuming the chord that it supports. Shirlaw (1917) discusses "tonal functions" (tonal!) in relation with the tonic, subdominant and dominant as discussed by Rameau; he provides an extended discussion of Riemann's theory of the three functions; but he never speaks of seven (or six) different functions. In addition, whenever Shirlaw speaks of "tonal functions", he puts the expression within quotation marks.

Functions of degrees as such, when discussed, usually imply that these degrees are roots (of chords). I know only one modern book that does discuss functions of notes, and it does not qualify them as "functions". It is Jacques Handschin Der Toncharacter (1948), a strange and not very well considered book, but which I personally find most interesting. Handschin clearly speaks of what I'd call "diatonic" functions: he discusses the "character" of, say, the note C in the diatonic system, not in this or that tonal scale, and claims that C somehow retains that "character" in any key. So doing, he actually catches up with a medieval theory, expressed for instance by Guido of Arezzo as the "mode or quality of the notes" (modi, or qualitates vocum). This all could be discussed in a "Diatonic function" (or "Diatonic character") article, but which would be entirely different from the present one. And once again, it would be rather difficult to find secundary references to such ideas which, I repeat, are presently under discussion among (a few) specialists. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:59, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

• A better name would be Harmonic function (music); the math article already has a hatnote. The word "tonal" isn't exclusively used to mean common-practice harmony. —Wahoofive (talk) 21:34, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Article is a mess

Goodness, having been brought here to comment on the suggestion to rename the article, I've just had a look at its content. Very confused. I think we need to discuss whether part of it can be saved and relocated in one of the other articles related to diatonic music/theory. Tony (talk) 10:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Tony, as I had written in Talk:Diatonic function#Diatonic function, harmonic function, tonal function?, I thought that the first step towards rewriting this article was its renaming. I am sorry that this operation now is ill embarked, probably by my fault.

I keep thinking that the real topic of this article is tonal function; even the name "Harmonic function" presupposes tonal harmony.

The article states, among others, that the "position within a gamut (the available collection) of notes determines a note's function". One is made to believe that the collection in question is the diatonic scale itself, while obviously a position in the diatonic scale does not and cannot determine a function. It is the position in the tonal scale (possibly but not necessarily diatonic) that does. Functions exist in minor as well, even although the scale may not be diatonic. Besides, this statement is given as one of "Three general and inseparable essential features of harmonic function in tonal music".

Beginning the paragraph on "Functional harmony", the article refers to Riemann; the "Further reading" section quotes one of his books: Vereinfachte Harmonielehre, oder die Lehre von den tonalen Funktionen der Akkorde (1893), a book that was translated early in English (1896, I think) under the title Harmony Simplified, or the The Theory of the Tonal Functions of Chords.

After this, the article almost always refers to functions in terms of Roman numerals, which inherently presuppose a tonality. The only section in which it does not is that on "Functions in the minor mode", which is but an extremely poor account of mistaken ideas about Riemann's dualism and his theory of the three functions (and their substitutes).

You suggested that the expression "Diatonic function" could also cover the Church modes. You are perfectly right in this, but once again you could hardly find a published reference to such an idea. That the article is not about functions in Church modes is one of the reasons why I consider that it should not be named "Diatonic function". (Diatonic functions in Church modes are more often refered to in the specialized litterature as "Hexachordal functions".)

Some of the article could be saved, but it should begin stating that Functions are properties of tonal music (in a wide sense of the term). It should then explain that there exist today two theories of tonal functions:

• the German one (Riemann, but also Daube, von Oettingen, etc.) which envisages three functions only, tonic, subdominant and dominant, which the seven degrees of the scale can take up in various ways, where the functions are notated with the three letters T, S and D, etc.
• the Viennese one (Sechter, Schoenberg, Schenker, Piston, etc.) which envisages a separate function for each of the seven degrees of the scale (or, some say, for six of them), and which notates the function with Roman numerals.

It goes without saying that both systems, the letters T S D and the Roman numerals, are used in minor as well as in major. The German theory remains practiced in Eastern Europe (Germany included), the Viennese one in Western Europe and in the United States. Etc. Etc.

Perhaps the renaming of the article could still be saved? But that would require more explicit support... — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 13:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

I am extremely disappointed that the request to move was rejected without explicit justification – and also that this section of the talk page for some reason apparently was included in the Please do not modify it advice, even although it was a separate section. I keep thinking that something should be done about this article, which indeed remains a mess. We are but very few to feel concerned wiht music theory articles: it is therefore of utter importance that anyone having even but a slight interest of the matter should give her/his opinion. It seems to me that the requested move is rejected merely because noone really concerned made the effort to answer. I cannot suggest the move anymore, but I hope that someone else will. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:33, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

I have fixed the source so that the discussion is closed properly, and this topic is not inside the closure. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:16, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

I think it's safe to say that the word "tonal" doesn't really have a fixed definition in music theory literature. In some cases it means "using common-practice harmony" based on dominant-tonic chord relationships, and in other cases it means "having a tonal center" (i.e. the antonym of "atonal"). Music in church modes, or by Bartok, might fit the second definition but not the first. We can't resolve this on WP. And we've had years of battle over the term "diatonic". I'd still advocate Harmonic function (music) as a compromise. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:36, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Oh, and I agree that the German and Viennese systems should be detailed, although there are other possible systems of describing harmonic function for non-common-practice music (if by that you mean the relationship between various chords), such as the that of Hindemith. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:40, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

"Function" is a term used loosely to mean all sorts of things, in music and elsewhere: "the special purpose or activity for which a thing exists or is used". There is the very specific meaning of mathematics, of the kind y=f(x), covered in the article Function (mathematics). We could devote an article to the general meaning, dealing, say, with the function of the clarinet in the orchestra, or of the decrescendo in this or that work, etc. For this, I'd suggets that the article be named "Function (music)".

Then there is the very specific meaning devised by Hugo Riemann in the late 19th century, under the form Tonale Funktion ("Tonal function"), the meaning of which was later enlarged, especially in American theory, to describe the role of chords in tonal common practice. But "function" in this sense has again been loosely used, turning back to the general meaning.

In other words, there is a musical technical usage of the term, of German origin, under the form "Tonal function". Its meaning might be slightly enlarged as "Harmonic function", but I think that "harmony" (at large) always presuppose some form of tonality (at large). It is from such considerations that we should decide... — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 06:28, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

PS. Hindemith's Craft of Musical Composition has a section with the title "Harmonic function", but the title is not in the German edition, which reads Harmonisches gefälle. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 06:33, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Everything you say is true, but I would suggest that it's more important that the article title convey to the casual reader what the article is going to be about (harmony) rather than be based on technical usages (or translations) from the past, especially when the terms are used inconsistently in the literature. Harvard Dictionary calls this topic Harmonic analysis, which wouldn't be a bad title for us either (though this is also a math term); Functional harmony is a separate article about Riemann's work. "Tonal" is a term just as vague as "function". —Wahoofive (talk) 17:06, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

I'd be very (or, say, reasonably) happy with the article being titled "Harmonic function", possibly with a redirection from "Tonal function". My real problem is with "Diatonic function", which I consider meaningless and misleading. Let me add, however, that even if I agree that WP should aim at the casual reader, this IMO is no reason to lack accurateness and consistence – including historical ones. That the terms are used inconsistently does not authorize us to repeat the inconsistence. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:01, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

(A german musicologist here...) This article made me laugh from my deepest heart. It seems as if someone tried to explain everything like a systematic method of general analysis of music. There's no way to achieve this goal. If one has to write a harmonic/melodic analysis of any sort, he should know how to choose the very method that fits. These (meaning f.e. roman numeral... & diatonic function...) are not rivals in an arena of musicologists competing with each other, but tools for special kinds of compositions. Every epoche developed its methods to achieve an aptitude in doing this kind of work. Less is more. Get aquainted with the concepts of tonality itself, divide between the compositional branches and aeras and be brave enough to omit superfluous babbling (which is to be found and provided for by the hundreds over the last 200 years). It is a Wikipedia-Article and not the New Groove...--85.179.182.176 (talk) 22:51, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, yes indeed. Tony (talk) 13:55, 4 March 2017 (UTC)