The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Józefa Joteyko believed that wages should be based upon scientific research and the amount of effort required to do a job, rather than arbitrary factors like gender?
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"1903 co-honor with M. Garnier for the Lallemand Prize of the French Academy of Sciences" - I think the M. may stand for Madame, French sources use MM. Garnier which is definitely madame. Digging suggests her name might have been Garnier-Cololian (Garnier et Cololian, lit Garnier and Cololian), or it can just be a co-author surname and a red herring. Maybe someone with better French can dig out her name? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here04:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ipigott Both of these links are about the prize. [1] or [2] All I get out of that is that he works with mental maladies and then I found this, which may well be him? [3] pg. 140. Your thoughts? SusunW (talk) 18:29, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And while you are looking at that, I think this says Joteyko and Kipiani won the Prix Vernois in 1908, but I don't know whose prize that was or anything else the article might say.[4] Thanks! SusunW (talk) 18:40, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SusunW: M. (if it is not an initial) means Monsieur and MM. means Monsieur et Madame. So MM. Garnier means Mr and Mrs Garnier. I could not find any reference to Garnier in your third source. And I'm afraid I could not find out any more about the Prix Vernois.--Ipigott (talk) 06:49, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ipigott The sentence on page 140 says "On trouvera des indications intéressantes sur ce mode de traitement dans l’ouvrage publié en 1901 par MM. Paul Garnier et Cololian sur la thérapeutique des maladies mentales et nerveuses." From your interpretation then is this a couple with the same surname or is one person Garnier and the other Cololian? And thanks for looking at the newspaper article. SusunW (talk) 13:13, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SusunW: In this context, MM. means Messieurs, in other words Monsieur Paul Garnier and Monsieur Cololian. You'll see there is quite at bit more here and from this I see it's Paul Garnier and Paul Cololian. There's a short article on Cololian on the FR wiki. This should give you something to chew on!--Ipigott (talk) 13:50, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Ipigott and Piotrus: Thank you both. Piotrus for asking the question and Ian for helping me solve it. I truly appreciate your help in getting things sorted. It does take a village! SusunW (talk) 13:57, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus It's a dilemma. You will note in the text I didn't use the term. There isn't really such a category as "Boston marriagites", but I've added a note explaining the difficulty in Polish history and academic research with classifying their relationships. Szot clearly makes the argument that they were same-sex partners as well as concluding they (Joteyko-Stefanowska, and then Joteyko-Grzegorzewska) were a family unit. He cites Otton Lipkowski, as does Kolbuszewska, who described their relationship thus "Shortly after Józefa's arrival in Paris she was visited by her friend Michalina Stefanowska, with whom she has already had close ties since their joint training in Geneva. They lived together in Paris in a modest room in the Latin Quarter at Rue de la Glacière 19. More practical and economical Michalina Stefanowska took over the house, ran the farm, and rescued her friend from all the worries and troubles associated with it." Kolbuszewska states that she had difficulties because of her relationships with women. Stec says that Janina Doroszewska published that the friendship between Grzegorzewska and Joteyko was transformative for them both and that Grzegorzewska "Kochała ją zwyczajnie i prosto" (plain and simply loved Joteyko), while for Joteyko their relationship was her greatest joy. pp=30-31. Clearly the relationships were deep and meaningful and different from binary definitions. If you have suggestions on categorization, I am open to them. SusunW (talk) 22:51, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SusunW Thank you for teaching me a new concept (Boston marriage). But in this case, I am unsure if the sources are clear on the line between friendship, being a roommate, and cohabitation/non-platonic relationships. At least that's based on the quote you cite. I did check Stec, but while she used the word love, that paragraph generally talks about friendship (I can quote from it at length and provide at translation, if you'd like). The point is, while the world love is used, in the context of that paragraph it implies love for a dear friend, not a sexual love. (A note about Polish language: IMHO Poles use the word 'friend' much less often then English people; i.e. in Polish, friend means what in English would be a 'close friend', since in English there is not much difference between friend and colleague/acquaintance). If you could provide better quotes that would imply a sexual relationship, I certainly would reconsider. So I'd use Stec certainly to source a claim they were close friends, but I'd don't see it as allowing us to claim any LGBT relationship. Btw, why isn't Stec cited in the article at all? PS. If you are interested in this, I'd be happy to collaborate on the article about Maria Konopnicka, a much more famous person (since her works are read in Polish schools). That article would likely be a better place for such categories, as there is some discussion of her possible (still, disputed, I think) leanings in that direction. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here03:10, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus I didn't find Stec until I started working on Grzegorzewska. I've read the paragraphs Stec wrote numerous times and they indicate to me that the relationship was one beyond just friendship. She called it mysterious, and more than an intimate acquaintance, a meeting of "inner depth" which united them into a full human. One doesn't have to have a sexual component to be part of the LGBT community, as the full acronym LGBTTQIA includes asexual relationships. To me, from the sources we have it is really clear that all of Joteyko's significant personal relationships were with women. The actual nature of them, I do not know, but, same-sex relationships seems pertinent and implies nothing about sexuality. Their correspondence seems to be at least partially extent. Maybe some day some brave academic in Poland will delve into the subject. Funny that you mention Konopnicka as this whole pocket of Polish women I have been working on started when I wrote about her partner Maria Dulębianka. I'd be happy to work with you on Konopnicka when we finish Grzegorzewska. SusunW (talk) 04:31, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SusunW: I think you cover this very well in your note at the foot of the article. I must say I was initially rather struck by your implication that their relationship extended beyond friendship but am increasingly sympathetic to your views. "Both a personal and professional relationship" expresses it nicely. In this respect, the article looks fine to me. Pity there aren't less decisive categories than those associated with LGTB for women who developed a deep personal relationship but who were not necessarily lesbians.--Ipigott (talk) 06:17, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ipigott and SusunW I am inclined to agree we need more categories, but I find it a bit difficult to see where we draw the line between "significant personal relationship" and the old-fashioned concept of friendship. Let me quote from Stec:
“
"J. Doroszewska pięknie wyraża się o przyjaźni między Szanowną Panią Profesor a studentką Marią. Zauważa, że właśnie w taką przyjacielską relację z czasem przekształci się stosunek słuchaczki Fakultetu do swojej Profesorki. Tkwi bowiem w tej relacji pewna tajemnica, której nie sposób zrozumieć ludzkim umysłem. Wspólne rozmowy, początkowo na polu naukowym, przerodziły się w dojrzałą przyjaźń, która trwała aż po grób. Grzegorzewską pociągnęła osobowość Joteyko – jej zapatrywania, szerokie horyzonty myślowe, potrzeba dowartościowania każdego człowieka (zwłaszcza tych najbardziej potrzebujących i dzieci), pracowitość oraz ogromne zaangażowanie. Dla Grzegorzewskiej ta przyjaźń była najcenniejszym darem od losu. Joteyko była dla niej mistrzem i najlepszym nauczycielem. Kochała ją zwyczajnie i prosto. Początkowo Joteyko zrobiła na niej ogromne wrażenie, później natomiast towarzyszyły sobie wzajemnie, ubogacając się wspólnymi doświadczeniami w życiu zawodowym i prywatnym. Dla Joteyko z kolei przyjaźń z Grzegorzewską była najwspanialszą radością, pozytywnym zaskoczeniem, którego może doświadczyć nauczyciel, serdecznością podtrzymującą jej samopoczucie oraz, w ostatnich latach życia, treścią egzystencji, która dzięki przyjacielowi staje się lżejsza, bardziej przejrzysta i krystaliczna. fot. 4. Przyjaciel i najlepszy nauczyciel Grzegorzewskiej – prof. Józefa Joteyko. Źródło autorskie. Pamiętam, że gdy byłam dzieckiem, moja Babcia mówiła mi wiele na temat przyjaźni. Powiadała, że to bardzo szlachetne uczucie, które poszerza horyzonty serca. Czytając na temat relacji między prof. Józefą Joteyko a Marią Grzegorzewską, przypomniały mi się słowa mojej Babci. Prawdziwa przyjaźń potrafi wiele dobra uczynić w życiu, może zmieniać człowieka na lepsze, wyzwalać w nim pozytywne emocje, umacniać i ubogacać. Przyjaźń to skarb, którego nie da się wygrać na loterii. Jest ona bowiem przejawem „braterstwa dusz”, zjednoczeniem serc, które potrafią rozumieć się bez słów. Człowiek, obcując z przyjacielem, odpoczywa, cieszy się każdą wspólnie spędzoną chwilą, dzieli na pół radości i smutki. Z przyjacielem nawet milczenie nie jest udręką, staje się ono jedynie twórczym przejawem ciszy. Czasem warto wsłuchać się w ciszę, ona wbrew pozorom mówi najwięcej, koryguje nasze codzienne wybory. Profesor Joteyko nadała nowy smak życiu Grzegorzewskiej, który z czasem stał się jej powołaniem w służbie innym. Zaś „dobrocią pachnąca” młoda studentka Maria podarowała pani Joteyko serdeczną przyjaźń, której przysłowiowy zapach nadał głębszy sens życiu pani profesor. Współcześnie, kiedy nadmierna perfekcja, ‘profesjonalizm’ i formalność wiodą prym w codzienności, owa przyjaźń manifestuje coś bardziej istotnego. Zaskakujące bowiem jest to, jak głęboka stała się relacja jednej z wielu studentek i szanowanej profesor. Widać, że obie uznały tę znajomość za coś więcej niż tylko przelotną chwilę życia. Co ciekawe, nie zabrakło w niej wzajemnego szacunku. Przykład życia profesor Joteyko nie tylko pociągnął i inspirował Marylkę, lecz także pozwolił młodej studentce odnaleźć swój sposób na życie, czerpiąc przy tym z mądrości i doświadczenia drogiej pani profesor. Studentka Maria podarowała swojej profesor to, co miała w sobie najcenniejszego: wierną i lojalną przyjaźń. Miłość tak prostą, a zarazem oddaną i zatroskaną. Literatura podkreśla, że Grzegorzewska opiekowała się Joteyko w ostatnich latach życia. Nie była to tylko i wyłącznie interesowna znajomość. Przetrwała całe życie. W sercu Grzegorzewskiej Józefa Joteyko miała szczególne miejsce. Podobnie jak i dla Profesor Joteyko Maria nie była obojętna. Jaka zatem jest siła przyjaźni? Trudno to stwierdzić. Bowiem przyjaźń jest miarą serca, spotkaniem wewnętrznej głębi z zewnętrzną codziennością. Przenikając się wzajemnie, tworzą pełnego człowieka.
”
I am sorry I don't have time to translate this in detail, but this is all about friendship. I bolded the Polish word for friend(s) and friendship - it occurs SEVENTEEN times in that passage. While it is possible their relationship was sexual in nature, there is no indication of it in that passage, which only argues that they were close friends. And a close friend can love another one as a friend without it entering into a LGBTTQIA realm (huh, no article on that yet?). And even if the QIA part is debatable, our categories are for LGBT and IMHO there is no sufficient evidence that they were more than just close friends and justifying the usage of the LGBT categories. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here07:15, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus It is obviously causing stress, which I never want to do, so I will remove the LGBT categories but leave the project designation, if that is an acceptable compromise. Readers in general will not take note of the project information, but it may provide insight into the variations of relationships for project members and researchers. SusunW (talk) 14:05, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus I totally agree we need more categories, especially for historic situations which have no (or tentative) ties to the current reality. I'll approach the project and see if I get any feedback. SusunW (talk) 14:51, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Again, may not be actionable, but; when she's moving between Warsaw and Brusells; who is the family that is travelling with her? She isn't married; and her parents, surely, stayed in Warsaw?
Sentence beginning "In 1903, she became the director of the Casimir Laboratory..." is very long, and ambiguous as a result. I'd break it up into at least two, possibly three.
"The war interrupted her ability to continue with research and though she founded the Committee of Assistance for Poles Residing in Belgium, Joteyko left the country in 1915" This is a little confusing; the three parts of the sentence seem quite unrelated to each other.
I changed it to say "The war interrupted her ability to continue with research and she turned instead to humanitarian work. Though she founded the Committee of Assistance for Poles Residing in Belgium, Joteyko left the country in 1915." SusunW (talk) 13:54, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"exiled Poles involved in the independence movement" this needs a little more context. Why were poles exiled? What independence movement were they involved in?
Can I just state for the record, our search engine is atrocious? Not sure how I can concisely cover centuries of partitions in a wee explanation in this article without going seriously off track from her as the focus. :S Every time I write about a Polish woman, I am shocked that there is no article on the independence movement, seems bizarre to me. At any rate, the best article we have (and it's not good), about the migration of Poles is the one called Great Emigration so I have linked that to exiles. How I am supposed to explain that for 1 1/4 centuries Polish intellectuals had fought to maintain a sense of Polish identity from outside the country, that they had established underground schools to avoid attempts at Germanization and Russification, and instilled in the populous a nationalist desire for their independence? I'm going to have to come back to this one. Seems really, really complex to me, as most of our articles on Polish history deal with war and not the social impacts that the upheaval of war had on the people who lived there. SusunW (talk) 15:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think you've done an admirable job, given the difficult. Thanks. Yes, it really surprises some people how bad our coverage really is outside the anglosphere. I work with south asian and south american topics, so I'm less surprised...still sad though. Vanamonde (Talk)21:44, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"unusual living arrangements with long-term female partners" this is a bit fuzzy. First, you've only mentioned one partner (maybe the sources don't make the rest explicit; if so, that's fine). Second, was it the fact that her partners were female that was unusual, or were there other things? If this is accurate, might I suggest "as well as the fact that she lived with long-term female partners"?
Perhaps it helps to get background to read the discussion on the talk page and the "Note" in the article. It's complicated.
I added a line "The two women developed a special friendship of mutual admiration and respect for each other and would remain life-long companions." to clarify that Joteyko and Grzegorzewską were entwined.
The source says specifically "[Joteyko] "boleśnie odczuła tę decyzję, wpisując ją w panującą w polskich sferach naukowych niechęć do kobiet-uczonych. Nie można zapominać także o „nowoczesnych” i bezkompromisowo głoszonych poglądach Joteyko oraz o odbiegającym od „ogólnie przyjętej normy” życiu prywatnym bohaterki; jej długoletnia przyjaźń z Michaliną Stefanowską a później Marią Grzegorzewską budziła wiele podejrzeń i kontrowersji".([Joteyko] "she painfully felt this decision, attributing it to the Polish scientific community's dislike of women scholars. One should not forget about the "modern" and uncompromisingly proclaimed views of Joteyko and about the private life of the heroine deviating from the "generally accepted norm"; her many years of friendship with Michalina Stefanowska and later Maria Grzegorzewska aroused a lot of suspicion and controversy".) So, no, not just that she lived with women. I've used your wording. DoneSusunW (talk) 15:50, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"At the time, there was no unified standard for school systems in Poland and the educational facilities that existed favored the upper classes." This is a bit fuzzy, also. "unified standard" for what?
"so that no matter their financial situation, pupils could learn and society would benefit from their education and skill" this reads a little like soapboxing. Does the source say this in its own voice, or is it attributing the sentiment to Joteyko?
Very definitely attributing it to Joteyko. "According to Józefa Joteyko...", "According to her...", "Her views...", "She was in favor...", "In her opinion". Changed it to say "In her opinion, no matter their financial situation, pupils should be able to learn so that society would benefit from their education and skill." DoneSusunW (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Entirely optional comment; some of the stuff under "Career" may, in the long term, be better in a separate section about her views; it's fine for GA, though.
My opinion, which counts for nothing, but that always seems weird to me. It's like tacking "personal life" on to the bottom of an article, as if their personal stuff didn't impact their career. Separating out her views, from the events that formed them is the same type of compartmentalization to my mind. SusunW (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"but illness curtailed her further involvement in research" this, in the lead, doesn't seem to be substantiated in the body....
Confused by this, sorry. The first sentence in the "Death and legacy" section says she developed a heart condition in the 1920s that became serious in 1927. Not sure I understand how that doesn't tie to illness which forced her to stop working? SusunW (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can you make sure all non-English sources mention what language they are in?
Vanamonde93 Thank you so much for the review. I appreciate your picking this one up. I think I have addressed all your points, but some of them I am not sure are resolvable. Please let me know if you need me to do anything further. SusunW (talk) 17:56, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done SusunW (talk) 15:50, 1 October 2019 (UTC)