Talk:Karachays

Editing the Text for Wikipedia

• Please Excuse the Shift to Second Place.

I only do this to help edit the text for Wikipedia. I have not touched the content of it whatsoever.

Yours truly, I am Ludvikus 21:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Indigeneous groups and WWII (to Russian invasion of Ukraine 2022)

Thank you to ethnologists, human rights activists, and historians, together with language specialists, for their work-now to genetics on the wikipedia sites. For example, the indigeneous groups of Russia from Karachai to Mari people, to Yakuts, Ossetians (nation of Georgia), and Sakhas. However, please note that none of these groups have the history of WWII on correctly at most sites (and we now have Russia Far East), and we have had major problems in the world beginning to reoccur (Ukrainian territorial integrity, UN, 2022). "I started with Germany and Russia invaded Poland in 1939" from east and west-and this site begins as Germany against Russia post war, when indeed we had Winston Churchill of Great Britain, US' President Roosevelt who died shortly after Yalta Conference, and of course-Hitler (Germany) and Stalin (Russia). Yesterday, we also were informed of 1991 Russian law on the Rehabilitation of Exiled People (at republics of Russia) post UN Rights of Indigeneous Peoples. 2603:7081:2000:3EF3:24A4:539E:AAAC:B0D9 (talk) 17:47, 9 June 2022 (UTC)JARacino2603:7081:2000:3EF3:24A4:539E:AAAC:B0D9 (talk) 17:47, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Customary Law of the Caucasion Peoples

THE CUSTOMARY LAW OF THE CAUCASIAN PEOPLES

Dr. Ufuk TAVKUL

Resume:

Social relations play an important role in social systems and they have been organised for a purpose. The social institutions, believes, customs and values of society are the parts of the social system. All of the customary values of society have been put in order by cultural norms. Those are the norms which have been adopted by the members of society. Norms determine prize or punishment for the members of society and they maintain the continuity of the social life and culture. The rules of the customary law are different according to the social structures of the societies. The customary law of the Caucasian peoples is related to their social structures, old believes, customs and economic structures. In the beginning of the 19th century if a man has violated a woman or a girl in Karachay-Balkar, he has been seized and has been judged by the court of justice which has been formed by the elders of society. He has been banished from society and he has never turned back to Karachay-Balkar. Some times the court of justice has executed the guilty man. In the beginning of the 19th century blood feud (vendetta) was an important custom for some noble families in Karachay-Balkar but it was not extensive as in Circassians, Ossets and Chechens. Sometimes the prince families of Karachay-Balkar reconciled the adversary families by organising a feast in the village. The promise has been so important for Karachay-Balkar people. If someone has not keep his promise he has paid 10 sheep to the people of his village. To marry within the same clan has been certainly prohibited in Karachay-Balkar. The members of the same clan have been accepted as close relatives and because of this kinship to marry within the same clan has been forbidden. To marry to the son or daughter of the foster brother or sister has been prohibited also. The court of justice in Karachay-Balkar has been named as “Tore” and the members of “Tore” have been named as “Aksakal” (White bearded). “Tore” of Karachay-Balkar has given its judicial decisions in respect of the customs of society. According to the change of the social structure of society “Tore” has changed its decisions. All of the individuals of society have had the right of being the member of “Tore” except the serfs and the slaves. The members of “Tore” have been elected for seven years. After the election of the new members of “Tore”, the new members have promised to be equitable and to judge justly in the presence of the people as below: The God of Sky I promise for the sun, the moon and the earth For the soil and the water of my earth For the stone and the bone For the wheat and the grass of my earth I promise to keep on justice The blood feud (vendetta) has been named as “Tlil Vasa” by Circassian people. If a prince has killed a serf the relatives of the serf have no right to revenge from the prince. The blood feud has been so important for the princes and the noblemen of Kabardins. The court of justice has promised to judge justly and after that has sentenced the guilty. In the 19th century if a Circassian has gone to a Russian castle for buying salt or some thing else, he has sentenced to pay six cows by the court of justice of his village. If he has repeated it he has to pay 24 cows. If he has promised not to be in contact with Russians and he has not keep his promise he has sentenced to death by the court of justice. Bu if he has accepted to pay 200 cows he has saved his life. The punishment of perjury has been 200 cows for a Circassian. A thief has paid 17 cows after he has paid the value of the goods which he has stolen. The punishment of murder has been execution for Circassians. The feet and the arms of the murderer have been tied up and he has been thrown to the river or the sea. To use a weapon to execute a murderer has been prohibited. After an executing sentence of a murderer the Circassians have burned the building of the court of justice. By doing this, the people has desired to forget the memories of the murder. There has been a prince family in every village of Kabardey and all Kabardin people have to submit the decisions of the princes. If the people have not agree the decisions of the prince they have had the right to object and right of petition to the Great Prince Of Kabardey. If a Circassian has been afraid of battle against Russians he has to pay two cows to his community. Among the Abkhasians the rules of the customary law has been named as “adat”. Among the Chechens the name of the court of justice has named as “Khiytirçiy”. It has been formed by the elders of society. The blood feud has been so important for Chechens. The punishment for killing a man has been 190 sheep, for a woman 130 sheep among the Chechen people. If the murderer has not approve to pay this punishment he has to leave the country. There is similarity among the Customary law rules of the Caucasian peoples. That indicates the common ethnicity, social structure and culture of the Caucasian peoples.

Dr. Ufuk TAVKUL

It is a pleasure for me to assist in editing

the Karachai page.

It would be useful to have someone to talk/write to

if I'm to smooth out some of the English. And the only name posted on this talk page is that of Dr. Ufuk TAVKUL. Are you--or is he--Karachai by any chance? Also, I'm just curious.

Yours truly, Ludvikus 21:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Are the Karachays Related to the Khazars?

I think I am a of Khazar descent!

Therefore am I related to the Karachays?

Yours truly, Ludvikus 21:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The Karachays in the United States

I believe the Karachays of the USA

live mostly in Paterson, NJ. Correct? Yours truly, Ludvikus 22:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Tavkul and other points

Actually I believe that Dr. Tavkul is a Turkish national, but has close relations with Karachays. It is also true that Karachays dominantly live in Paterson, NJ. Please ask your other questions regarding Karachays. Did someone have a chance to meet Karachays is USA? If so, what is your impression? Regards, Kemal

Not Alans, but Turks !

It is well known that the Alans was an more than 3000 years old and prestigious north-western iranian people of indo-european descent. During the first centuries AD, they competed with the other north-western iranian peoples of indo-european descent -the Sarmatians- over the stepe territory between the Don and Volga. After them defeat on the hands of the Huns in the year 370, they begun their westward migrations together with the Vandals, Goths and other migrating peoples. Some of the Alans settled in Ukraine, Pannonia, Gaul, Hispania and Africa (modern day Hungary, France, Spain and Tunisia) and assimilated with the local peoples.

Some of the Alans, retreated from the stepe into the Caucasus Mountains and become the modern - day Ossetians. It is remarcable that the modern-day Ossetians are still using the north-western iranian language and they are still calling themselves "iron" (meaning "of iranian descent"). But some of the Alans, retreated into the actual area of Karachay and settled on the northen slopes of the Caucasus Range.

After abb. 800 years, during the middle 11-th century, the Mongolian Invasion pushed the Turkic warriors of the stepes toward the Caucasus Mountains (as previousely the Huns pushed Alans)and the newly arrived Turkic tribes mingled with the Highland Alans.

The resulting people, the actual Karachays, are a Turkic - speaking people who adopted Islam in the 15-th century. Therefore, the Karachays have some partial Alan ancestry and they did not remained faithfull to the indo-european and iranian language, as the Ossetians did. Unlike the Ossetians, they preffered to bow in the face of the Turkic warrior's force and to forgive the language and the faith of them ancestors. Even today, the Karachay are not willing to re-descover the ancient Iranian languages but they preffer to mantain the turkish speach.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.196.150.157 (talk) 12:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Got any archaeological, anthropological, linguistical & cultural proofs of your statements? Iliassh (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Alança

Karachays and Balkarians called themselves alancha halq - alanians. It is well known fact. Digorians call them æsson ("os", "as" people). They ARE alans since Digorians and Ironians call themselves respectively - dyguron & iron. Genetically modern Ironians and Digorians are closer to Kabardians and Adyghe people rather than Tajiks and Persians. Alans were turkic, that's obvious since they lived on territories that excended far from modern Ossetia, why then no "iranian" toponymy was found on that territories? Before arriving of Seljuk Turks to Taurus and Anatolia turkic peoples in general were called alans, avars, yasses, oses, ases, arses, jasses, Iazyges (yaslıq, jastıq), . Modern Karachay-Balkarians speak the same language as 10 centuries ago, there is no proof of any major language-change since such thing is not possible in theory. The "iranian theory" fails here.[1] Iliassh (talk) 18:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree here. For further complete information with sources please see: Balkars-Talk. --82.113.122.164 (talk) 12:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

To Iliassh

first of all don't stick the ossetians to the Adyghe and kabardians, because ossetians are iranic race, and they still speak iranian language, ofcourse they mixed with local caucasians after living 2000 years in the caucasus, but still they are iranic unlike Adyghe (including kabardians) speak caucasian language.

and about karachay-balkars it was proven more than one, that they are not caucasians in their origin, they are turkic people, maybe kypchaks maybe not, but it is known in history that many turkic nation came to caucasus, and the karachay-balkars are their descendents.Sawserok (talk) 11:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sawserok, for an iranian people, they sure don't have anything in common with iranians.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/OssetianGeneticsEn.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.54.215.89 (talk) 11:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Another Reply to Iliassh

Hello Illiash. I have to ask, do you have any proof of this, my friend? This link actually proves Sawserok's point.http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118745631/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 Thank You. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arash zlord (talk • contribs) 01:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC) Iliash, sorry but I missed your link. The site you have given is actually very pro-turkic from what I hear. It says the scythians were aslo a turkic people when they actually were not. Thank you friend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arash zlord (talk • contribs) 01:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

of course the alans were turks,but the ossetinians are not alans,they call themselves "iron",they are iranian people.the karachay-balkars are descendents of the alans,this is the only reason they call themselves "alan". can anyone give a link that proves scythians were not turkic?

>>>Itis logical and common sense to see that the Balkars are also descended from the Bulgars - the name is almost identical and the writer Osma Karatay writes that Bulgars settled in the Caucasus and in Georgia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 (talk) 08:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Nasidze, strangely avoids using the Karachay and Balkar in his study. Here's why: http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/OssetianGeneticsEn.htm

It shows absurdities in Nasidze's argument. Ironically, Nasidze ended up disproving his own idea. For example, Digorians and Ironians are virtually unrelated. Also, Digorians are very similiar to Adyghes according to genetic studies. They not at all genetically related to Iranian ethnic groups. Ironians are closer to Georgians than they are to Iranian groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.54.215.89 (talk) 02:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Large parts of this article are unintelligible!

The author of this article needs to revise carefully the English language content, grammar and sentence-structure. For anyone unfamiliar with the historical and ethnic background to the events described the text is opaque in the extreme. Geoff Powers (talk) 18:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Still a big problem. No change. Probably due to translation from Russian. 141.48.108.15 (talk) 20:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Balkars

The languages of Karachay and Balkar people seem to be very similar and they are usually treated as a single people. (Or at least that' what I 've usually seen in the academic articles.) However, the histories of those two people (as summerized in Wikipedia) are quite different. Any explanation for this discrepancy ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Alternative names

User:Bouron seems to have a problem with those given sources. If this user is continuing with his inaccurate deletions and behavior, we need a complete protection. --82.113.122.164 (talk) 18:49, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Your revision was not based on consensus. So you should to discuss it here after I reverted your edits. Please read WP:EW.

What about your changes. I had obvious reasons to delete them. You suggested names of the topic in six languages not relevant here. See WP:DICTIONARY and MOS:LEADALT. So I am not discussing the content and sources. Also, exactly the same content and sources were discussed in Balkars article talk page. --Bouron (talk) 14:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Sounds logical to me not to name those alternative names such as asiag, aesson or kusha. However, Alan seems to be the self-designation in terms of Ethnonym. I will just re-add this part. --82.113.122.164 (talk) 18:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Alan is not self-designation of Karachays. Read the discussion.

Here are articles about Karachays in some Russian encyclopedias. As you can see all the articles say that self-designation of Karachays is карачайлы. No one says Alan. The articles are from: Great Soviet Encyclopedia, ru:Советская историческая энциклопедия and ru:Большой энциклопедический словарь (former Soviet Encyclopedic Dictionary).

Here is an entry of word Alan from Karachay-Balkar - Russian online dictionary. It says that the word means Hey!, Listen, Friend!. It doesn't say that it means Karachays. I think it should be clear for you now that Alan is not Karachays autonym. --Bouron (talk) 19:43, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Bouron, you just admit that your absurd argumentation was falsified by a user called Grezcia? I have read and studied the discussion and I came to the decision that you have a 'bad-faith'-behavior. I have warned before. With your next revert I will report you. --82.113.122.164 (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2012 (UTC)