Talk:Lebkuchen

Requested move

Lovely to see this entry, but just occurred to me that Lebkuchen is plural, and in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (plurals) it really ought to be called Lebkuche. Compare the article on Cookies - which of course redirects to Cookie.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cnbrb (talk • contribs)

I'm not sure that's correct. I do have some knowledge of German, so I see where you're coming from, but this seems to be a singular form (and for some reason, masculine: der Lebkuchen). The article in the German Wikipedia is also at Lebkuchen and the pictures are labeled Lebkuchen even when there's only one. There are less than 5K Ghits for "Lebkuche" but more than 1 million for "Lebkuchen", which is approximately the same ratio as some common misspellings in English. Maybe it's an evolved shortening of kuche plus the diminutive? Anyway, I think I have to oppose this move unless anyone else can add some insight. Interesting idea. Dekimasuよ! 00:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes, that's a good point. I had always thought of it as a plural. Usually with the -chen diminutive the preceding vowels have an added umlaut (Häuschen etc), and neuter gender, so I wasn't thinking of that (Bairisch oddity?). But I note the German Wikipedia entry refers in several places to a singular Lebkuchen - "Heute ist der Lebkuchen..." - , and a quick dictionary ref suggests der Lebkuchen. This English article does refer to Lebkuchen consistently in the plural, so maybe it would be less confusing to refer to the singular - "A Lebkuchen is...." if this is correct. I'll not action this - see if anyone has anything to add, but prob. one to abandon, on reflection. --Cnbrb 09:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi; native German speaker here. Lebkuchen is singular in German. The same form can be plural as well, but the word is rarely used in that sense, which has to do with the fact that Lebkuchen is not a Kuchen (cake), but a category of pastry. Therefore, "A Lebkuchen is yummy" and "Lebkuchen are yummy" are both kind of wrong. There's Lebkuchen cookies, dough, hearts, houses, ... but in general there isn't really "a Lebkuchen". On the other hand, in a specific context, you can refer to "ein(en) Lebkuchen" in German, e.g. you're in Nuremberg and it's clear that you mean the type of Lebkuchen that is customary there, i.e. a large cookie on an unleavened wafer. Using the word in this sense, you can also specify "zwei Lebkuchen" and it's plural. But in general, "Lebkuchen" just means pastry of a certain consistency made with certain spices; that's the most common sense and in that case it's a mass noun. In German, you'd use the singular form for that; I'm not sure about English, but I'd say both plural and singular are OK and just being consistent is probably more important. One more thing: While "-chen" is a common diminutive in German, the last syllable of "Lebkuchen" is not a diminutive. If you were to form a diminutive of "Lebkuchen" in German (which would be a bit silly as it's an uncountable, somewhat abstract term) you'd probably end up with a different suffix, e.g. "Lebküchlein" (which would be akin to "gingerbreadie"). I think some weird local dialects might have "Lebküchelchen", which would sound about as silly as "gingerbreadette" to non-locals. 86.59.11.23 (talk) 05:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I've only just noticed this request, and it's based on a large misunderstanding. A number of German nouns, almost all masculine, have the ending -en (der Kuchen, der Garten, etc.). This ending may once have been a case ending, but is not a plural marker. In any case, Lebkuchen is a mass noun, including in German sentences like Der Lebkuchen ist…; German article usage is different from that in English. It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 10:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, agreed. --Cnbrb 12:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Lebkuchen in German is almost never referred to in the plural: you say lebkuchen "is" in the way you say gingerbread is, and not lebkuchen are. also, a german would not refer to lebkuchen as cookies because cookies are generally hard and rather small and lebkuchen generally is soft, baked on a host-like edible sheet and at least about handsize. if at all, lebkuchen uses little flour but basically ground nuts, candied fruits, honey or sugar, chocolate and spices. only the harder varieties use more flour in order to use them for "gingerbread" houses or hearts sold at fairs to hang around one's neck. actually, i think, for the latter kind, only flour and spices are used and it tends to be more like honigkuchen (honey cake), which again resembles a lot more the english gingerbread.

because of its ingredients, of which many come from far away countries, lebkuchen was considered to be very special and certainly not eaten by poor people. today, good quality lebkuchen still is expensive compared to other baking goods.

as to its origins, on german wikipedia it says that gingerbread, as it is known today, originates in dinant, belgium. it's hard to imagine that something with such an old tradition can be pinned to a certain locality. it is also notable that in germany lebkuchen comes in many varieties with different names.

the picture: "freshly baked lebkuchen" does not depict traditional lebkuchen but the more cookie-like harder variety. it should be replaced; there are good pictures on german wikipedia. i deleted the sentence with the ancient teutonic peoples wearing lebkuchen around their necks. it sounds like german-romantic if not nazi-folklore. the reason for lebkuchen being traditional christmas food is because it was very special and expensive. Sundar1 09:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

"Der Deutsche" says: "Lebkuchen" alright, Picture not!

Thank you for the Lebkuchen-Article. Yes: "der Lebkuchen" is absolutely correct. But, as someone already says, the picture isn't. This dipicts a common "normal" Weihnachtskeks, which is a german Xmas cookie. The simplest. But not Lebkuchen. So maybe someone finds another picture. (Daniel, Cologne, Germany) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.135.103.69 (talk) 13:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Many people in Germany seem to think that eating Lebkuchen is a good cure for winter depression as well as a nutritious snack.

I took out this sentance as I have never heard of this in a serious context. (Tim, Augsburg, Germany)

The rest of the discussion seems to be redundant: Lebkuchen is considered the correct word and the pictures look good. (Tim, Augsburg, Germany) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.250.72.96 (talk) 13:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

I'm not sure if "Liebspeise" is spelled correctly; looks like it should be "Leibspeise" to me. In modern-day German, the word "Liebspeise" doesn't exist, but who knows, maybe it did at the time when Lebkuchen was invented. Oh, wait, I just discovered that it originally was "Leibspeise" all along and had just recently changed erroneously. I'm reverting that. Yes, Spockvondeutschland, "Leib" does indeed mean body and "Liebling" does indeed mean favourite, but your favourite food is still your Leibspeise. You see, an obsolete meaning of "Leib" is "person, personal." 86.59.11.23 (talk) 05:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Dire need of revolution here

I found the article in a dire need of an edit. I am nor German nor lebkuchen specialist, therefore I would love to see someone competent editing it.

1. somewhat resembling gingerbread --- There is no definite definition of "gingerbread", hence nothing can "resemble" it. In the English language "gingerbread" refers to both a spiced loaf (Fochabers gingerbread, Whitby Gingerbread) or a spiced biscuit/cookie (Grasmere gingerbread, Grantham gingerbread; think of Gingerbread Man from Shrek), and there is no reason this term cannot be applied as an umbrella term for many spiced bakery products from around the globe (from Russian pryaniki, through Croatian licitar and Swiss biberli, to Dutch ontbijtkoek, Scottish Broonie, AND lebkuchen). As I view it, (and more so in French "pain d'epices"), "ginger" is there primarily just to indicate "spices". I know that many English speakers would baffle hearing that there can be no ginger in gingerbread, but sometimes there is as much horse in seahorse, fish in crayfish, and pig in guinea pig. I know that this may be considered my own opinion, but the same (opinions) may apply to what bread, cookie, cake, biscuits are. There is no simple consensus, but here on Wikipedia we can at least try to be more flexible. "Lebkuchen can be considered a type of gingerbread" is all what I would ask for. "Lebkuchen can be considered both a type of gingerbread or a separate type of pastry similar to it" , if you please.

2. "The closest German equivalent of the gingerbread man is the Honigkuchenpferd" --- What about such terms as: Weck(en)mann, Weck(en)männchen, Stutenkerl, Stutenmann, Krampus, Grittibänz, Grättimann, Klausenmann, Dambedei, Hefekerl, Pfefferkuchenmann, Lebkuchenmann? Not all of them are made of gingerbread (eg. Stutenkerl made from Stuten), but why can't they be considered an "EQUIVALENT" of the [Anglosaxon tradion's I resume] gingerbread man? Another thing is that "Honigkuchenpferd" includes "Honigkuchen" and not "lebkuchen"... (So please, dear language purists, be consistent).

3. The Nuremberg type of "Lebkuchen" is also known as "Elisenlebkuchen" --- "THE" Nuremberg type"? Sounds like "THE one and only", which is definitely not true. I always felt it is just "one of" their types. And first of all Elisen themselves are type of Oblatenlebkuchen, as they are made on Oblaten wafers. In fact, Elisen is the most elaborate (check the ingredients) type of Oblaten. To add to that, Elisen have their sub-types too, just check the "Elisenschnitten".

4. These are only example of how poorly this article is written. Why not more on Nuremberg? Why nothing on Pulsnitz? Look at the German Wikipedia entry and see how much can be added here. In my humble opinion, sources should not be tourist information offices' websites or some "insiders" blogs in English, but rather some serious publications, especially ethnographic ones. Hopefully someone ambitious will take the gauntlet. This topic deserves a truly beautiful entry on Wikipedia. Dnaoro (talk) 00:57, 27 June 2018 (UTC)