Talk:Ma Barker

Ma Barker's date of birth

Wikipedia is the only reference where I have seen this birthdate (October 8, 1873) for Ma Barker, and I am wondering what the source for this date might be. I have seen other sources that give her year of birth as 1871, 1872, 1873, and 1877. There's a photo of her gravesite in Oklahoma at www.findagrave.com, which gives her age at the time of death, but it is exasperatingly difficult for me to read. I am trying to contact the photographer to confirm the exact date. Jim Deutsch 19:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

In the brief biography in Bankston, Carl L. Great Lives from History: Notorious Lives Salem Press, it list her as born: c. 1871. Axelrod, Alan and Phillips, Charles (1996) Cops, Crooks, and Criminologists. An international biographical dictionary of law enforcement New York: Facts on File, New York, listed her birth as 1871-?. Halliwell, Leslie (1988) Halliwell's Filmgoer's Companion (9th ed.) Charles Scribner's Sons, New York; and Amende, Coral (1994) Legends in Their Own Time Prentice Hall General Reference, New York, list her birth as 1880. Rafter, Nicole Hahn (ed.) (2000) Encyclopedia of Women and Crime Oryx Press, Phoenix, AZ; Gottesman, Ronald (ed.) (1999) Violence in America: An encyclopedia Charles Scribner's Sons, New York; McDowell, Barbara and Umlauf, Hana (1977) The Good Housekeeping Woman's Almanac Newspaper Enterprise Association, New York; editors of The World Almanac (1990) The World Almanac Biographical Dictionary World Almanac Publications, New York; and Women in World History: A biographical encyclopedia Yorkin Publications, Waterford, CT, list 1872. I did not find any 1877 reference. I do think that 1880 is unlikely. I think that October 8, 1873 is just as good as any other date, given the lack of unanimity. c. 1872 would seem to be the most conservatively judicious choice. --Bejnar 23:23, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The Oct 8 Month/Day is consistent with the "3 months" on her grave marker. I cannot make out whether it says 58 or 63 years and 3 months, or 53 or 68. Nor am I convinced that that grave marker is necessarily accurate. --Bejnar 19:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Well the U.S. federal census of 1880 lists Arizona Clark as being age 6 (thus born in 1873 or 1874), born in Missouri and living with mother Emeline and siblings in the household of stepfather Reuben Reynolds in Ash Grove, Missouri. Mapjc 03:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The date of marriage is also pretty suspect. While I suppose that marriage at age 11 would not be outside the realm of plausibility, I think it's somewhat improbable. Other online sources put the date of her marriage at 1892, but they are not themselves sourced, so I wouldn't change without something more solid to cite. Ceekane 04:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

A record of the marriage can be found at Ancestry.com (with a subscription.) Go to records for Missouri and check marriage records. You can see a copy of the original record - both the issuance of the license and the marriage return - both dated 14 Sep. 1892. Johndavidh (talk) 20:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

For genealogical records of Arizona (Clark) Barker go to http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=batqp4538&id=I2Johndavidh (talk) 21:12, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Maylene and the Sons of Disaster

I question whether the following paragraph is appropriate. --Bejnar 00:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The Story of Ma Barker and her sons is also an inspiration to a Southern hardcore band Maylene and the Sons of Disaster.Their Lyrics include perspectives of her sons, committing crimes. Maylene and the Sons of Disaster are currently signed to Ferret Records and have release one self titled album and their second album "II" will be released March 20, 2007.

• I would like to achieve consensus that this type of material is not appropriate in the Ma Barker article, even though it may be appropriate in the Maylene and the Sons of Disaster article. No one has seen fit to add it there yet. Today I reverted the material just below. --Bejnar 01:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Ma Barker and her sons were also the inspiration behind the Christian metal band Maylene and the Sons of Disaster (http://www.myspace.com/mayleneandthesonsofdisaster), founded by former Underoath (http://www.myspace.com/Underoath) vocalist, Dallas Taylor.

Yeah well there is a section of POPULAR CULTURE. Throw it in there with the other mislabled trivia that still basically has no reason to be in wikipedia. If you're gonna put the other 'popular culture' stuff in, put more of it, or one that is actually more relevant than just a name. (-Kid. 12:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC))

I can't quite distill out the meaning of the previous message. Is it sarcastic? To what does just a name refer? --Bejnar 22:37, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, it was sloppy I know. I'm saying that the band is more than just a name. Most of the songs somehow tie in to Ma Barker and her boys which I think should make it more than relevant. (-Kid. 12:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC))

Barker Boys family

Yea! I am the second cousin to the Barker Boys. My father moved in with George when Ma and the boys moved out. They were living in Carterville Missouri at the time. She moved with the boys to Tulsa while George and my father Charlie Barker stayed on the goat dairy. I was born at Neosho Mo. and most of the relatives are there today. Ma and the boys are buried at Welch Oklahoma. I have all of the records of Doc's incarceration papers while locked up in Oklahoma. All corrispondence between law officers, postal inspectors and magazine reporters.The notification to Oklahoma prison from Alkatrez warden of his death, as he was to be returned to Okla. after he completed his life sentence there.My father whom is now deceased had many great tales about his uncle George, Ma, and his cousins as the grew up together as children. As you would expect all that you hear is not true and my father too may have changed a little bit of the truth just to polish it up a smidge to make it a little more hair raising. George may have had a little more to do with all this than one may expect. It was ok to be thought of as a drunk if it kept him from being suspect. He was never once thought of as having anything to do with the crimes yet the boy's and Ma loved him dearly.After all he is the one that took care of their bodies.Maybe was the real master mind behind the crime !!!!!!! Well that would sure put a big twist on all the other thoughts and facts. You know he kept a brand new model t. in the barn covered up with a tarp. ( not bad for a drunk in the depression days ) Huh ? Have fun with the stories . Roy Barker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.245.32.113 (talk) 04:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if there is any truth to the previous statement. lol. maybe... maybe not... Oh well. Sometimes the no OR rule is annoying... but at least it protects us from false claims being true. Saksjn (talk) 18:29, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Saksjn : Prove it ISN'T true. Maybe you'd like someone questioning you, you age, or something else personal?...68.231.189.108 (talk) 16:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

No, actually, you've got that the wrong way round. The onus for inclusion here is proving that something is true, rather than slapping it in and waiting for someone to disprove it. It's got nothing to do with questioning other users' ages or "something else personal". tomasz. 18:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

As much fun as it is to read tales of the family, if the above commenter, 4.245.32.113, does indeed have the inside knowledge she/he claims, then that person should be writing newspaper items, magazine articles, or books about the family. They could then become citations for this article. I would also think that such a close relative would have offered info regarding the woman's birth date and full birth name, but did not. Some researchers now doubt that Arizona had any input in planning the crimes, let alone George. She is portrayed merely as a hanger-on in some writings with mild support role, useful for renting the hide-outs, and that she couldn't "even organize breakfast". Wordreader (talk) 21:49, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Ma Barker's Correct Name

Ma Barker first appears in the 1880 Census of Greene Co., MO, as Arizona Clark. The 1910-1930 censuses all list her as "Arrie." (I cannot find her in 1900.) She was married in 1892 in Lawrence Co., MO, as "Arrie Clark." The Tulsa City Directory for the years 1914, 1916, and 1917 list her as "Orrie, Orie and Orie." The 1919, 1923, 1925, 1926, 1927 and 1928 Tulsa City Directory lists all list her as "Arrie." Her Florida death certificate first lists her as "Kate," but the information was not provided by any family member. Presumably it was provided by the FBI. In a Supplementary Florida Death Certificate information is finally provided by George Barker of Joplin, MO. He gives her name as "Arizona" - there is no mention of "Kate."

In Miriam Allen de Ford's 1970 biography entitled "The Real Ma Barker," she writes on page 16 that "Incidentally, by that time [the time of her marriage] she was no longer Arizona or Arrie, but was known as Kate. (It may have been her middle name, though one commentator gives her the odd middle name, for a girl, of Donnie.)" Based upon the record of her marriage it appears to me that she is still very much using the name "Arrie." I don't know of any record in which she refers to herself as "Kate" or as "Donnie." And one commentator referring to her as "Donnie" hardly seems sufficient evidence to believe that she was actually named "Donnie." Any more definitive information on her name would have to come from family members.

Based upon the above, I believe that she is best described as Arizona "Arrie" (Clark) Barker, aka Ma Barker, aka Kate Barker.

Johndavidh (talk) 21:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Information about the sons

There's only 1 son with a Wikipedia page. Should there be pages for the others? What were their dates of birth and deaths? Does anyone know? I was trying to find Fred Barker's birth date and so far, have only found 1902 or 1903.Jtyroler (talk) 14:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Please don't abuse the >citation needed< formula!

...there is no evidence that "Ma" was their leader [citation needed]...

Sorry - do you need the evidence to prove that we have no evidence to prove something? 8O — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.160.202.180 (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

To come to the conclusion that there is no evidence, without having a source that says that, would be synthesis. --Bejnar (talk) 23:30, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Several sources say that and are cited in the relevant places. We don't need citations for every sentence, that's an abuse of the tag. Paul B (talk) 12:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Recent reversion

Hello. I reverted the article to the 2017 March 19th revision for now, because some referenced material was removed. I am in no current position to evaluate those changes and sources without some research, but found the content removal slightly suspect. Hopefully someone more familiar to the subject can eventually deal with this, and discussion about it should ideally happen here. The issue seems to have to do about if Ma Barker was the mother of some murderers, or if she herself was also involved. Thanks, PaleoNeonate (talk) 06:02, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Calculation of Birthdate for Arizona (Clark) Barker - "Ma Barker"

Establishing Ma Barker's birthdate. Ma Barker's Supplemental FL Death Cert. Filed 8 Feb. 1935 for Arizona Barker included additional info. from her husband George Barker. He gave her birthdate as 8 Oct. 1877. The 8 Oct. is probably correct since George Barker should have known it. The year is incorrect as is proven by the 1880 and 1910 censuses. The 1880 Census of Boone Twp., Greene Co., MO, lists Arizona Clark, age 6 as living with her step-father and mother, Reuben and Emaline Reynolds. Arizona was born between 1 Jun. 1873 and 1 Jun 1874. Early census records for a person are generally more accurate than later census records. The 1910 Census of Finley Twp., Christian Co., MO, lists George E. and Arrie Barker with four children. Arrie is 36. The census was taken 30 Apr. 1910, so Arrie should have been born between 30 Apr. 1873 and 30 Apr. 1874. The three records mentioned above do not rule out a birthdate of 8 Oct. 1873. We know from the Lawrence Co., MO, marriage record of George E. Barker and Arrie Clark, 14 Sep. 1892, that Arrie was over 18. This tells us that Arrie was born before 14 Sep. 1874, but it doesn't rule out the possibility that she was born in 1873 or before. The 1920 Census of Lincoln Twp., Stone Co., MO, where George E. and Arrie Barker appear together, calculates to a birth for Arrie between 9 Jan. 1874 and 9 Jan 1875. It is off by one year. The 1930 Census of West Tulsa, Tulsa Co., OK, shows Arrie with her 2nd husband, Arthur W. Dunlop. Arrie is 53 which puts her birth between 7 Apr 1876 and 7 Apr. 1877. This is clearly off by 3 or 4 years and may well be a drop in age due to vanity. The 1880 and 1910 Census do not exclude a birthdate of 8 Oct. 1873. The 1920 Census record is off by a year and the 1930 Census record clearly in error. Based on the above I find the 8 Oct 1873 birthdate is probable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johndavidh (talk • contribs) 03:05, 26 December 2021 (UTC)