Talk:Marie Stopes

Marie Stopes International

This page doesn't explicitly mention that Marie Stopes clinics do abortions

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.54.202.82 (talk • contribs) 23:43, 25 June 2006

The paragraphs on this page which focus on the Marie Stopes International Partnership appear to be written by someone within the organization. Is there anyone with knowledge of this organization (who doesn't work for them!) who has any knowledge to contribute about their operations? Marie Stopes International is a large organization and I wonder if it doesn't deserve it's own page. What do others think? I think it is a significant, culturally important, organization given their stance on abortion, but I don't know enough about them to start a page up on my own.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mariestopes (talk • contribs) 11:43, 12 January 2007

I would agree that the organisation needs it's own page. It certainly does abortions(surgical and RU-486) and sterilisations for both men and women, which Marie Stopes herself was not involved with. She was more into providing barrier methods of contraception, which was largely all that was available in her time and the organisation provdes these outside of the UK. I would be more than willing to help develop this article, but I might be a little too close to organisation as my partner works there. Fluffball70 18:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I find this entry a little odd. It focuses far more on Stopes' little known interest in Eugenics than it does on what she was actually known for (ie her work around birth control). Her books such as Married Love and her work in the field arguably helped change the shape of society by making family planning far more widespread. Obviously, not everyone will agree that this is a good thing, but it would be nice if the article reflected her impact a bit more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numberjumble (talk • contribs) 16:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The Eugenics is definitely given too much weight within the article. Also some of the assertions made are incorrect (before I edited them.) The remark about leaving money to Eugenics society needs a reference. Claude McNab —Preceding comment was added at 19:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the section on the modern organization is written from the standpoint of someone within the organization. This organization is certainly controversial (given the controversy regarding abortion and contraception in general), but the discussion of the modern organization makes no reference to this. Further, there are no references supporting the claims that the organization performs the actions that it does. Lastly, the actions it performs (performing abortions, providing contraception) are phrased entirely from the point of view of the organization and read like propaganda. 208.100.193.183 (talk) 01:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The Marie Stopes international website claims that they performed 400,000 safe abortions in 2006, yet also cites that they had around 138,000 clients. Presumably they performed multiple abortions on the same woman (an average of three per year) in order to achieve this statistic.208.100.193.183 (talk) 01:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Why Scottish?

why please is Marie Stopes described as Scottish? She was born in Scotland to an English father and Scottish mother. They moved to England when she was 6 weeks old. The only time she lived in Scotland was during 2 years of her secondary schooling. All references from Ruth Hall's biography of her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.105.142 (talk) 11:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Passage removed from article

The following was removed from section "Advocacy of eugenics":

---

She also bemoaned the abolition of child labour for the lower classes:

"Crushed by the burden of taxation which they have not the resources to meet and to provide for children also: crushed by the national cost of the too numerous children of those who do not contribute to the public funds by taxation, yet who recklessly bring forth from an inferior stock individuals who are not self-supporting, the middle and superior artisan classes have, without perceiving it, come almost to take the position of that ancient slave population."

---

This has nothing to do with "bemoan[ing] the abolition of child labour for the lower classes" despite the numerous times the comment and quote are repeated across the internet. Stopes' argument regards limiting the number of children to the poor. The passage continues:

It is only as a reward for their thrift and foresight, for their care and self-denial, that they find themselves able (that is allowed by financial circumstances) to have one or perhaps two children. (Radiant Motherhood, pp.235-6)

-- spin^control 00:00, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Problematic passage

This is an extremely confusing passage, "Her aim was to have her poems distributed through the German birth clinics, but the letter has been interpreted as showing sympathy for Hitler. However, any sympathy she may have had would soon have dissipated when Hitler closed the birth control clinics. " Is that meant to imply that Stopes had some initial sympathy for Hitler's regime but that that sympathy vanished once the regime closed the birth control clinics or is the writer simply not sure what Stopes felt towards Hitler's government at any stage? If Stopes was initially sympathetic but quickly disillusioned, wouldn't it be better to say "soon dissipated" rather than the confusing, awkward "would soon have dissipated?"

Also, the passage "the letter has been interpreted as showing sympathy for Hitler," by whom and for what reason? And has that interpretation been shown to be wrong? There should be a citation for that sentence. The whole passage is somewhat muddled.Nearly50 (talk) 22:35, 2 May 2013 (UTC)Nearly50

Hopefully, there is no problem understanding the notion of her writing a letter to Hitler with the aim "to have her poems distributed through the German birth clinics". I don't know if there is any problem with the notion that "the letter has been interpreted as showing sympathy for Hitler". Take a look at the state of the article before I rewrote it here, where you will find this nonsense: "As came to public attention in years later, she was a personal as well as political follower of Adolf Hitler", based on the vociferations of a journalist from the British Telegraph amongst others. This was in the wake of a huge religious outcry against a British postage stamp with the picture of Stopes.

The following is a conditional statement: "However, any sympathy she may have had would soon have dissipated when Hitler closed the birth control clinics." It temporarily accepts the assumption that Stopes was sympathetic towards Hitler to show that I could not have lasted, ie the sympathy "would soon have dissipated when Hitler closed the birth control clinics". But there is no evidence that she was sympathetic to Hitler at the time. She was certainly interested in promoting her book in Germany, which the letter indicates. The passage deals with complex issues and is not muddled. It clearly uses the resources in the language to respond to a contentious issue derived from popular speculation on this letter without going beyond the available evidence.

The matter has to be dealt with, because there are sufficient people in Britain who are aware of the accusation. However, to go into depth on the issue seems unjustified. If you really think the speculation needs footnoting, I can put in a reference to the Telegraph article, though I would prefer not to. -- spin|^control 14:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I am thinking of adding this passage from Chips Channon's diaries, for 17th April 1940. Channon is usually accurate in reporting what he heard, but it is possible that Lord Halifax, then Foreign Secretary, was embroidering his narrative. If nothing else it reflects how she was regarded in contemporary political circles. The editor of the diaries records that in the expurgated 1967 publication of the diaries, the manuscript entry reproduced below had been changed for publication to "over 100 Germans and then with at least 100 Americans".

" ... later towards the end of a very good lunch, which I had ordered, [Halifax] was amusing about his interview yesterday with Dr Marie Stopes, who came to the Foreign Office and said that she had had affairs with 500 Germans at Munich, then with 500 Chinamen – so she knew men better than any other woman. She was prepared, she told Lord Halifax, to accept Cabinet office, and would he pass on her request to the Prime Minister?" Thomas Peardew (talk) 08:02, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Time in Crystal Palace

I was about to edit the main article to make reference to her staying in Crystal Palace but the article I was citing created some contradiction to the current content. There's a blue plaque in Crystal Palace saying she stayed in a house here, with details listed here: Blue Plaque for Marie Stopes

This article, in the arse end of it, suggests she came to London in 1880, which seems a bit a bit at odds with the early life section saying she was home schooled in Edinburgh and attended an Edinburgh school starting in 1892. I'd like to get the blue plaque inserted into this article but would appreciate it if someone more knowledgable can do it without creating inconsistencies in the early life section!SheffGruff (talk) 23:20, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Hopefully my last edits have cleared up the conundrum. Stopes was born in Edinburgh, but taken to England in her first year. -- spin|^control 23:08, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Quant Scottish laws

I find the phrase "legally a virgin" in the lead an odd usage. The main body offers no further information. Perhaps it needs rephrasing? --Pete (talk) 19:02, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Read the section "Marriage and Married Love". Her first marriage was never consummated.--Auric talk 20:30, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

In that case, it's synthesis, surely? --Pete (talk) 20:36, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

It's a summary.--Auric talk 21:20, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

It makes a claim of legality which is hard to justify. Unless we can show that under Scottish law people were regarded as virgins before marriage, the statement is false. How is the statement helpful to the reader? --Pete (talk) 21:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I can't see that Scottish law has anything to do with it. She married and the marriage was annulled, which requires the marriage to have been unconsummated. The book was written during the divorce proceedings and published shortly before her second marriage, meaning that the court had declared her a virgin via the annulment.--Auric talk 21:52, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Do we have a link to this surprising decision? For this chain of logic to work, premarital sex would have to be legally fictitious. --Pete (talk) 22:16, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Not very surprising. Read the annulment article. Proof of lack of consummation is required to get an annulment. Her doctor certified her so. --Auric talk 23:27, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. But this isn't mentioned in the main text. Hence my question. Likewise, what value does it bring to the reader? --Pete (talk) 23:34, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's more of a hook, intended to get the causal reader interested.--Auric talk 23:42, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Given the general flatness of Wikipedia prose, it stands out. Now that you put it that way, it's a positive. Still, perhaps we could expand the point in the body. --Pete (talk) 23:44, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Divorce found for nullity, marriage 18 Mar 1911, Montreal, Canada, 'voided' [quotes mine, comments deleted]; M.C.S. petitioned 1 Oct 1915; set down 28 Mar 1916 for 6 months; not 'sufficiently shown otherwise' by respondent R.R.G. 14 Nov 1916; final decree for the petitioner 20 Nov 1916, Strand, Westminster, Middlesex; divorce and marriage record images at Ancestry. Someone [else] should fix this page. Arkaig1 (talk) 05:16, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

References

May be a "B" rather than a "C" by now

An editor familiar with the subject of this article may wish to rate this as "B" class. Monumenteer2014camper (talk) 00:49, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

It could be sent to Good Article Review in all likelihood. It's pretty good. With some work it could pass GAR. It's just a matter of someone wanting to put in the effort. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:48, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Introduction change suggestion

First paragraph: "Her contributions to plant palaeontology and coal classification were significant, and she was the first female academic on the faculty of the University of Manchester." I suggest: "Her contributions to plant palaeontology and coal classification were significant. She was the first female academic on the faculty of the University of Manchester." The two parts of that sentence are related, but the second portion should stand on its own. --Ventric (talk) 05:44, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Removed text

Removed POV text:

Persistence and hard work had always served her well. She had gained remarkable results as a scientist. She had two runaway best sellers. She had her clinic and an organization behind her to maintain it. Humphrey Roe, the co-founder of the clinic, was demoted to "husband of Dr. Stopes".

Repeated text, slightly different ref from same source:

In 1911 Stopes married Canadian geneticist Reginald Ruggles Gates. Her marriage to Gates was annulled in 1916 on the grounds that the marriage was never consummated.

Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 23:12, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

References

View on abortion

Article currently [1] reads in part Stopes was strongly against the termination of a pregnancy; during her lifetime her clinics did not offer abortions. Stopes thought birth control was the only means families should use to limit their number of offspring.[citation needed] Nurses at Stopes' clinic had to sign a declaration not to "impart any information or lend any assistance whatsoever to any person calculated to lead to the destruction in utero of the products of conception".[54]

Assuming the reference [54] Marie Stopes (1925). The First Five Thousand. London: John Bale, Sons & Danielsson. pp. 16–17. supports the rest of this section, it would seem to me certain to justify the first part as well. Why the [citation needed] tag?

I propose to remove the tag. Comments? Andrewa (talk) 22:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Done . Andrewa (talk) 20:10, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Stopes' support for compulsory sterilisation of the unfit

On 26th October 2018 the "Eugenics" section, this statement was added: “Marie’s preferred method of contraception was the “Pro-Race” cervical cap but unlike the left leaning Labour politician Ellen Wilkinson she never supported compulsory sterilisation.” No citation was made to support this statement.

The claim that Stopes never supported compulsory sterilisation are undermined by the public record. In “Problems of Population and Parenthood” (1920), being the 2nd report of the National Birth Rate Commission, she was recorded as saying (on page 133): “May I suggest a very simple solution in regard to the hopelessly bad cases, bad through inherent disease, or drunkenness or character? A perfectly simple way would be the sterilisation of the parent?” In Chapter 20 of “Radiant Motherhood”, Stopes urged compulsory sterilisation through legislation and took steps to bring it to the attention of then prime minister, LLoyd George. According to biographer June Rose, Stopes sent the book to Frances Stevenson urging her to get him to read it.

In addition, Tenet 9 of the CBC states: "AS REGARDS THE POPULATION AT PRESENT. We say that there are unfortunately many men and women who should be prevented from procreating children at all, because of their individual ill-health, or the diseased and degenerate nature of the offspring that they may be expected to produce. These considerations would not apply to a better and healthier world." While this does not advocate compulsory sterilisation per se, it shows that the CBC did advocate a compulsion. RetroAuth (talk) 00:37, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Other opposition including arson

Not added but articles mention this in the BNA https://blog.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/2020/01/07/five-remarkable-women-who-shaped-the-1920s/ Kaybeesquared (talk) 20:45, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Relationship between Marie Stopes and her son Henry

The current version of this article says that after Marie's death, "Her son Harry received her copy of the Greater Oxford Dictionary and other small items". However, Harry Stopes-Roe's article's current version says that "After he married a short-sighted woman, his mother, an advocate of eugenics, cut him out of her will". So which one is correct? Or are they both correct and incomplete? Mateussf (talk) 02:04, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 January 2021 and 15 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Regertonglgy209, Lane.herspiegel.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Marie Stopes in her laboratory, 1904 - Restoration.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for March 9, 2023. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2023-03-09. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you!  — Amakuru (talk) 18:41, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Marie Stopes (1880–1958) was a British author, palaeobotanist, and campaigner for eugenics and women's rights. After obtaining a doctorate from the University of Munich, Stopes was appointed to the faculty of the Victoria University of Manchester, becoming its first female academic. She went on to make significant contributions to plant palaeontology and coal classification, assisting the British government with her coal expertise during World War I. From 1913, Stopes began writing on issues of marriage, parenthood and women's reproductive rights. With her second husband, Humphrey Verdon Roe, she founded the first birth control clinic in Britain. Her sex manual Married Love (1918) was controversial and influential, and brought the subject of birth control into wide public discourse. She was also a believer in eugenics, being described in her biography by June Rose as "an elitist, an idealist, interested in creating a society in which only the best and beautiful should survive". This 1904 photograph shows Stopes at work in her laboratory in Manchester.

Photograph credit: unknown; restored by Adam Cuerden

Recently featured:

• Hayden Bridge
• La Wally
• Tirumala limniace

Possible synthesis.

This article can be confusing in places. For example, this paragraph from the Eugenics section:

"A 1933 letter from Stopes to a friend revealed disillusion with eugenics: "I do not think I want to write a book about Eugenics. The word has been so tarnished by some people that they are not going to get my name tacked onto it". Despite this, she attended the International Congress for Population Science in Berlin in 1935. After attending this conference she came under attack by some of her former supporters such a Guy Aldred and Havelock Ellis and, on her death in 1958, she bequeathed her clinics to the Eugenics Society."

Where it says her letter "revealed disillusion with eugenics", does the cited letter actually state that she is "disillusioned" with the concept of eugenics or is "disillusioned" with the way it came to be portrayed? You go on to say that she attended a conference that caused some derision towards her and then pointed out her bequest.

From these evidences, it seems like the phrase "A 1933 letter from Stopes to a friend revealed disillusion with eugenics..." is wrongly concluded synthesis. The citation for this phrase is thin: 101 British Library, London. Marie C. Stopes' Papers.. Please add the letter name and date or other identification within the Stopes archive.

Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 15:56, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Familiar given name changes.

I found some instances, outside of quotations, where the subject's given name was used familiarly. Please try to remember the Manual of Style direction to stick to surnames after the initial introduction. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 17:25, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Timeline issue

First time contributor, apologies if I'm doing this wrong. I believe I've spotted a timeline issue in the "Married Love section" says ″Around the start of her divorce proceedings in 1913, Stopes began to write a book about the way she thought marriage should work. In July 1913, she met Margaret Sanger, who had just given a talk on birth control at a Fabian Society meeting. Stopes showed Sanger her writings and sought her advice about a chapter on contraception. Stopes's book was finished by the end of 1913″. However Sanger didn't flee to England until October 1914. CzarBrent (talk) 03:11, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

References