Talk:Menschen, die ihr wart verloren

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Translation

"Menschen, die ihr wart verloren" addresses human beings who were lost, not a doomed mankind, as a recent translation. The humans are requested to be glad, - not a mankind. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:11, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hey ich glaub wir können hier besser auf Deutsch diskutieren. Mein Übersetzungsversuch ist denke ich näher am Sinn des Textes. Die nun wieder hergestellte Version erinnert mich ein wenig an, entschuldige die harten Worte, "English for runaways". Aber von mir aus lassen wir stehen was jetzt da steht. Für mich kein Drama... Grüße --Inetdeswerdisagedürfe (talk) 15:17, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

On your talk page, or mine, we can speak German, but this is for people interested in the article. English, please. - "Sinn" = sense - your translation may be closer to what the author had in mind in the 19th century, but I believe that his wording was taken to th 21st-century hymnal because of its immediate appeal to people, individuals, vs. the summary of "mankind", - not even talking about women ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:10, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello it's me again! I wold prefer an explaining translation. Humans is a word used in context to Humans versus Aliens in Science Fiction. "Heut ward er den Menschen gleich" does not really mean he was "equal to humans" more it means "and was made in the likeness of men" (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Philippians-2-8/). Lets ask a native speaker of English of what he thinks reading "humans who you were lost". If someone goes to London by car he would unfortunately get lost... Best regaards --Inetdeswerdisagedürfe (talk) 12:40, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Men who you where doomed,
revive, rejoice!
Today God`s son is born,
Today he was made in the likeness of men.

Let us fall down before Him,
to him our thank should resound:
"Glory to god, Glory to god,
Glory to god in the highest!"

Do you have a good solution to not only say men but include women? - I understand "lost" like lost sheep, quite biblical, - you won't say "doomed sheep". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:18, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Men" means "Menschen". Or write "Mankind".
"Verloren" is in context with "Massa damnata" and not with "Good shepherd". Other Hymns have the same context in similar words. "O du fröhliche" has "Welt ging verloren" + "Christ ist erschienen uns zu versühnen" and not search a lost sheep. Or in the hymn "Heiligste Nacht" (from the Verspoell hymnal, too) is in the 2. stanza "was uns der Sündenfall Adams geraubt....schenket uns deine Huld". A third hymn from the Verspoell hymnal (O selige Nacht) tells "ihr waret verloren heut ist euch geboren der Heiland, der allen das Leben verspricht" the Angel saying to the shepherds. It is not sayd they are searched and brought back (home again) like a lost sheep. This words are meaning that "doomed" got back their lifes only by an act of mercy. So I would prefer to translate "verloren" with "doomed". --Inetdeswerdisagedürfe (talk) 09:59, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would translate "verdammt" by "doomed". You did good research, thank you for that. O du fröhliche has "lost", not "doomed" in the trasnlation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:00, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your answer seems to be ironic.. is'n it? Anyway may be the translator of o du fröhliche did not pay attention to this "mistake" (or not Mistake?). --Inetdeswerdisagedürfe (talk) 13:03, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"I lifted this article almost word for word from German Wikipedia using Google Translate" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:O_du_fr%C3%B6hliche --Inetdeswerdisagedürfe (talk) 13:20, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No irony intended. The translated article of O du fröhliche is here since 2010, and nobody seems to have complained about the translation. A different translation has also "lost". - We indent each reply, for clarity. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:37, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ah ok. Translates "lost in sin". Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvtJ8Xlngcs Oh How Joyfully by David Rowsell (sounds to be native speaker of english) and here https://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/oh_how_joyfully.htm it is subscribed in different lyrics and written neither "lost" nor "doomed". Welt ward verloren is "translated" Christ the world redeeming --Inetdeswerdisagedürfe (talk) 13:46, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/Images/Hardwig/O_Thou_Joyful_Day-Hardwig-90.jpg here the lyrics "earth's hopes awaken christ life has taken" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inetdeswerdisagedürfe (talk • contribs) 13:49, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This page for "Menschen, die iihr wart verloren" - please move suggestions and sources for "O du fröhliche" to that article's talk. I used it only as an example. - Please indent comments on talk pages, and sign your posts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:54, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And how goes it now wider? The article keeps "lost" for translation? --Inetdeswerdisagedürfe (talk) 15:36, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Irony intended? - Rabanus Flavus, what do you think? - You with a name that am not sure I understand (a bit of "Zumutung" for English readers): the normal way is to hold a WP:RfC (Request for comment), but I suggest we first call people who know something about the topic. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for asking me, but with my English is it not white hair... --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 19:03, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Would you know where to find a good translation of "O du fröhliche" which doesn't avoid the term? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:29, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose, Anglophones are interested in singing the melody with fitting English words, not in the exact signification of the German text... --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 19:41, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For "verloren" might be chosen a phrase with "perdition": "O ye men, once in perdition,..." That's King James sound :) --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 19:56, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

O ye men, once in perdition,
recreated rise, rejoice!
Celebrate Christ's apparition:
birth in man-shape was his choice.
Heads and minds incline before him,
singing hymns of praise adore him:
Glory to God, glory to God,
glory to God in the highest!

--Rabanus Flavus (talk) 20:20, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hey there is a translation. Thanks @ all. Now someone must do the change in the article. Otherwise 7933 types on various computer keyboards were useless ;-) --Inetdeswerdisagedürfe (talk) 11:10, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

added --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:38, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]