Talk:Nelson Mandela

Current Event template

I've added a current event template since so much information is rising about Mandela. Since many think he's death and funeral plans a pending I think this template is necessary. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 20:01, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Good Article

I've been working hard into making this article into a good article. I added a lot of information along with references. I really hope that this article will eventually become a good article. If there's anything wrong or any suggestions please write them here. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 04:04, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Requested review

• The lead section should not really have references like that. All facts should be in the article anyway and so the reference should go there.
• Name the year he was elected President of South Africa.
• African National Congress needs a link.
• Stuff like government, legacy etc should be linked.
• While I personally like this, it is not really simple: "Politically an African nationalist and democratic socialist, ..."
• Secretary General of the Non-Aligned Movement is surely worth a link.
• Unlink dates/years in the article.
• Fort Hare University also worth a link.
• African National Congress Youth League - most stuff in capital letters is worth giving them a link.
• former President Frederik Willem de Klerk - important person (see, a capital letter ;-) ) and also President of what? The European Union?
• inauguration not simple - also it is linked the second time of use, not the first time.
• "Westbrooke was renamed "Genadendal". Preserving his Houghton home, he also had a house built-in his home village of Qunu. He visited Qunu regularly, walking around the area, meeting with local people who lived there, and judging tribal problems." that all needs a reference.
• "When he won the Nobel Peace Prize for his help during the civil rights revolution in 1993[2] and he said:" That's rather weird sentence.
• ater fixed the report soon afterwards - sounds oddly worded.
• The capital city of Johannesburg awarded him Freedom of the City. sounds really odd
• The list of honors could use some order... Chronological would be nice.

That after a first overview, there might be more things that need fixing. --Barras talk 08:31, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Fixed all the suggestions. What's next. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 19:23, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

It is time to officially make it a GA. WorldTraveller101  ?  00:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Anymore suggestions? --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 02:15, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Please be sure that ...

• ... all dates are written in a consistent format, either month-day-year (ex: January 1, 2013) or day-month-year (ex: 1 January 2013). The format of a date at the top of the Health section is inconsistent with other date formats in the article (like the birthdate at the top of the lead).

• This is another example of the date format inconsistencies in the article (italics): "It was reported on 28 March that he was responding ... hospitalized on June 7 from another ..." Use either day-month or month-day but remain consistent throughout the article.

• Also check the "our" and "or" endings on words such as "honour" and "honor". The word is spelled "honours" in the lead ("Mandela received more than 250 honours") and "Honors" in a section heading.

• There are words in the lead (tackling, fostering, reconciliation, for example) that should either be replaced with a simpler word, defined in parenthesis, or linked to wikt.

Oregonian2012 (talk) 03:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• Done --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 04:30, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Lead and First Section: "Early Life"

• Lead. Link "Xhosa" in third paragraph. Early life: 1st paragraph. Find and give his parents' names. His father's name is in one of your sources. Use "English name" rather than "Christian Name" per your source. Your text should match your source. Your source says he was born "in Transkei, South Africa" but your text says he was born "in Mvezo, Umtata (now Mthatha), South Africa". Use one or the other, but be sure your text is supported with a source. Early life: 2nd paragraph. Link "expelled" to "expel" rather than "expelled". Most of the text in this paragraph is not supported by the source. This paragraph needs more sourcing. Oregonian2012 (talk) 20:59, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Done --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 00:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Mandela was expelled from Hare U and you need to investigate this and provide the reader with the reason. It doesn't need to be a lengthy report but it should satisfy the reader's curiosity. Go to Google Books or a public or university library and find a couple of good sources. Use the latest materials on this. Use "official" and "authorized" materials cautiously. These are often scrutinized by the subject and censored. You need to get away from citing everything to on-line sites. Avoid "timeline" and "FAQS" sorts of things. These are often unreliable and do not go into much depth. Mandela is a major world figure. Use the best sources. Oregonian2012 (talk) 00:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Done --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 03:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
I have removed two redundant categories. That should be made noted that redundant categories could be looked into and checked one more time. -- WorldTraveller101  T  C  G  E 01:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

How are those two redundant categories? Chenzw  Talk  01:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I undid WT101 edit because he's alive (Category:Living people) and he was President of South Africa (Category:Presidents of South Africa). I'm not sure why those Categories are redundant. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 02:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

FYI for everyone

This article is now a good article. Good job to those who helped by adding new pieces of information. Maybe this can be a very good article someday soon. :) Best of luck. -- WorldTraveller101  T  C  G  E 16:31, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Please stop making such pronouncements. Oregonian2012 (talk) 01:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Improvements still needed

• "Mandela had six children." Had or has? I'd prefer "has" ... unless all of his children are dead.
• "He was one of thirteen children." I recall reading his father had 13 children by 4 different women. I think this needs investigation. The way it reads now the reader is led to think he was one of thirteen children of the same father and mother.
• "On his first day of school, he was given the name Nelson by his teacher Miss Mdingane." Why?
• "In 1990, he was let out of the island ..." What is 'the island'? Needs explaining.
• These are not sentences: "Noting that it was overwhelmingly owned and run by middle-class whites and believing that it focused too much around crime. Changing clothes several times a day, after becoming president."
• The "Health" section needs to be reworked. I'm not sure at GA that his health needs this minute coverage. It might be better to summarize all this information in a paragraph or two:

  "In March 2013, Mandela fell ill with a lung infection. He was hospitalized. His health grew worse, but improved in the summer months of 2013. He was released from hospital on September 1. Mandela was reported to be in a permanent vegetative state during his illness. At one point, he was reported to have died. These reports were proven false."

  Whatever is done, the single sentence paragraphs should be brought together into one or two paragraphs. As it stands, the section looks like a list of trivia.
• The images in the "Health" section predate the events in the section. I'm not sure they should be used here. There is a woman in one image. Who is she? Why is she in this image? If the image is going to be used, this needs explaining.
• The "Honors" section is a list. Rework it as a few interesting paragraphs.
• The article appears to have been constructed solely on news reports or online sites. The first source cited appears to be a blog. This is unacceptable. There are several hardcover biographies published about Mandela. There is no good reason why this article should be sourced solely from news reports and unreliable online sites. I would prefer to see these biographies investigated and cited before I give this article my full support. Oregonian2012 (talk) 02:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

• I fixed everything besides the sources (I'm still working on that) and the health section (It seems to be useful in this article so that the reader knows how much Mandela's been through). Thanks. Oh and about the biography sources can you write down some suggestions down my talk page just to make sure what's the best. Thanks. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 03:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

• Undue weight has been given to his health in this article. This is an encyclopedia not a newspaper where every detail is recorded. This amount of detail is not necessary. It is appropriate for an exhaustive, definitive biographical article - which this article is not. You can find good and recent books about Mandela in public or university libraries and on Google Books. The choice should be yours, not mine. However, you should not be citing the major facts of his life to blogs. These facts have been recorded in excellent biographies. These are the sources you should be using to create a GA -- not blogs, FAQS, and online "lists" and "timeline" sorts of things. I'd like to support this article but it needs a good deal of work. Oregonian2012 (talk) 04:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Bluegoblin7

Here's a few thoughts on the article as it stands at the moment. I'm not sure if all want changing so you're welcome to disagree.

• "...first President of South Africa elected..." - would it be simpler to use "...Africa to be elected..."?

•  Fixed

• "Politically an African freedom socialist, he served as the President of the African National Congress (ANC) from 1991 to 1997." - Seems a bit of a complex sentence. What's an 'African freedom socialist'?

•  Fixed

• "Mandela received more than 250 honors..." - He's not dead yet, so can we insert 'has', please.

•  Fixed

• "He is often referred to by his Xhosa clan name, Madiba, or as Tata ("Father"). He is often described as "the father of the nation"." - any chance of removing the repetition?

•  Fixed

• First sentence of the 'Early life' section I would repeating his full name.

•  Fixed

• "Giving African children English names was a custom among Africans during that period" - can this be rephrased to avoid the second use of 'African'? If not, no worries.

•  Fixed

• The second paragraph of the 'Early life' section reads as though it refers to his father, not him.

•  Fixed

• "The government saw him as a potential threat to their policy of apartheid. They made it very hard for him to keep leading the group." - How? Source?

• I can't find a source about this. Is it okay if I could not add a source or delete this sentence.
•  Fixed

• If you can't find a source then you'll need to remove the statement, imo. Goblin 03:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Pmlineditor!

•  Fixed

• "After the Rivonia Trail,..." - do you mean trial? Why was he on this trial?

• I believe it explains it after he was sent to Robben Island.

• I'm still not comfortable with this. You need to find a way to tell us why he was on trial, then that he was sent to Robben island, and then that he was left out. This whole paragraph is struggling a bit, to be honest. Goblin 03:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Pmlineditor!

•  Fixed

• "...out of Victor Verster Prison after 26.5..." - not sure the link to en is necessary, or indeed if we need the exact prison listing for GA. I'd say we do need it for VGA, and also a local article.

•  Fixed

• "In 1990, he was let out of Victor Verster Prison after 26.5 years after State President of South Africa Frederik Willem de Klerk removed a ban on the African National Congress and ordered for his release." A long and quite complex sentence. Can we split this up or put it any more eloquently?

•  Fixed

• "...former State President of South Africa Frederik Willem de Klerk..." - You've said his full name and title in the previous sentence, can shorted to 'de Klerk'.

•  Fixed

• "...also MK..." - what does this stand for?

•  Fixed

• What's the ANC? Abbreviate it the first time you spell it out in full.

•  Fixed

• "Although Mbeki had not been his first choice for the job, Mandela would grow to rely on him throughout his presidency." Comes across as a fairly complex sentence - there's a few complex words there, some that have multiple meanings.

•  Fixed

• " Moving into the presidential office at Tuynhuys in Cape Town, Mandela allowed de Klerk to keep his presidential home in the Groote Schuur estate, instead settling into the nearby Westbrooke manor." Why? Also, a bit on the long side. Capitalise 'Manor'.

Fixed except why he did it. I can't find any sources or reason, what should I do?

• Remove it, it's not that notable, and GAs do not have to be comprehensive. Goblin 03:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Pmlineditor!

•  Fixed

• "built-in" - No need for hyphen.

•  Fixed

• "Aged 76, he faced many illness." At age...?

•  Fixed

• Is it worth having a separate article on the Nelson Mandela Children's Fund?

• It might be if a reader is interesting in knowing about the Fund. Feel free to disagree.

• Yeah, I was suggesting that it would be worth creating one. :-) Goblin 03:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Pmlineditor!

• "Although speaking out in favor of freedom of the press and befriending many journalists, Mandela was critical of much of the country's media because it was overwhelmingly owned and run by middle-class whites" - complex.

•  Fixed

• "When he won the Nobel Peace Prize for his leadership during the civil rights revolution in 1993[2]. After receiving the prize he said:" First sentence doesn't make sense. Let's either (Re?-)combine them, or fix the first.

•  Fixed

• "Mandela has been married three times. Mandela has six children." - combine.

•  Fixed

• "Mandela remarried on his 80th birthday in 1998, to Graça Machel, widow of Samora Machel, the former Mozambican president and ANC ally who was killed in an air crash 12 years earlier." - long sentence.

•  Fixed

• "retiring" (or 'retire') probably could do with being linked to wiktionary at its first usage.

•  Fixed

• "... the Foundation denied invitations..." - What Foundation?

•  Fixed

• The entire 'Health' section needs re-visiting, it seems overly complex and rather repetitive at the moment. I don't think, even at VGA level, we need every single in-out-in-out to be listed, just the highlights, and as simply as possible. Link to wiktionary if necessary.

• I think I adjusted the section. Please add any information that must be removed.

• Better, but make sure that all the dates are in the same format, and see if you can re-word "Although reports denied the fact that Mandela will not be discharged, he was in fact discharged on 1 September 2013.", which is still a bit clunky. Goblin 03:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Pmlineditor!

•  Fixed

• If Mandela re-enters hospital, or dies, before this article is promoted I would suggest placing it on hold. If it passes, I'd expect it to be updated to GA standard if he dies, and would support this being a condition of any promotion.

• Well I'm still going for GA. Don't worry I'm a nerd, so if he dies I'll make his death section and funeral section GA worthy.

• I have no doubt you wan't, I just don't want us promoting an article when it's a topic that is likely to have some movement, only for the article not to reflect that. If/when I make a support comment, I'll be suggesting that we require the article to be updated and undergo a GA review within, say, a month of Mandala's death. If it's not up to scratch, or isn't added, we automatically demote. I think that's reasonable? Goblin 03:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Pmlineditor!

  I mean he's well for now, so although the chance of his death is sort of high, I'm sure if he is to die I'll give my full attention to the article and adjusting it. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 03:54, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

• "Mandela was often called to by his Xhosa" - 'called to by' - not sure what you mean, or if it's erroneous.

•  Fixed

• No need to link 'bridge', but is there an article on the bridge?

•  Fixed

• Reference 5 seems to be dead.
• Reference 50 is dead.
• Reference 66 is dead.
• Reference 67 doesn't back up the part of the article it links to.

•  Fixed

• Check all access dates and publication dates are in the same format (XX Month XXXX)

•  Fixed

• Second external link does not work.

•  Fixed

• If you go to VGA, the Nelson Mandela navbox will need to turn blue.

It's highly unlikely I would go to VGA, but thanks for the tip and I'm sure future good users would appreciate this!

• Ha, no worries, just wanted to point it out! :-) Goblin 03:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Pmlineditor!

So, in short, there's still quite a lot to do, but it's not impossible. Let me know how you get with these, and I'll make another pass when you're done. Goblin 01:36, 5 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Fr33kman!

Replied inline. Goblin 03:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Pmlineditor!

More comments

Having been rumoured that he died on 26 June 2013, a linked ABC article is presented as "proof" that he did not die on 26 June 2013. However, the article in question is dated 21 June 2013. This article link should be removed.

• Three links to enwiki in the first paragraph of 'Early life'. Please link them locally - I don't mind if they're red links.

•  Fixed

• Another two in the second paragraph.

•  Fixed

• Same again first paragraph of 'Anti-apartheid activity'.

•  Fixed

• State President of South Africa in second para.

•  Fixed

• Inkatha in the second para of 'Presidency'.

•  Fixed

• Harry Oppenheimer in fourth para of same.

•  Fixed

• "Although in favor of freedom of the press and became friends with many journalists" doesn't make sense.

•  Fixed

• Four links to enwiki in second para of 'Personal life'.

•  Fixed

• "...and refused most interviews..." - link is incorrect in its current form. Either find a simpler word (preferable) or link to SEWT.

•  Fixed

• Two links first para of 'Health'.

•  Fixed

• "Death hoax" link in the rumours section and "memorial service" in the 'Burial plans' section.

•  Fixed

• Nelson Mandela Bridge link in 'Honors'.

•  Fixed

• A few links in the 'Movies' section.

•  Fixed

Other than that, it looks to be pretty much there. As I say, even if some of the above links have to be red then I'm happy with that - this is only GA, and a red link is far preferable to redirecting readers to enwiki. I'm not sure of the 'official' stance on this, but it's not something that I'm particularly comfortable with in our 'better status' articles. Goblin 02:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Fr33kman!

So is this article worthy of being a GA? --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 03:09, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Yep. Goblin 03:25, 6 September 2013 (UTC) I ♥ Kennedy!

Thanks--TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 03:40, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Improvements still possible ...

• There are two references 33-34? that need to be worked. One appears to need a <ref name= sort of thing.

• Which one need the <ref name=> and why does ref 33-34 needs work? --Ma-anza (talk) 16:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

• "He ordered for Mandela's release." How about "He ordered Mandela's release."

•  Fixed

• A careful reading will reveal other "style" shortcomings and confusions. When I get time, I'll list them here.
• I would like to see a Background sort of thing before I give this article the thumbs up. Mandela comes from a complex culture of African village life. This village life is not what one would find in Western village life. His father had four wives, for example. In the western world this would called "polygamy" and regarded with some questions and reservations. In western life it may even be illegal. In African village life however this appears to be legal and a normal way of life. Some authorities have indicated this village culture affected his entire life. It is likely unfamiliar to many, many readers. He is a world figure. He may die soon. This article will be accessed by many, many people at his death, especially American school children who will probably be given assignments to write a paper on Mandela. I think it essential that this village culture be briefly explained in the article. It doesn't need to be exhaustive or lengthy, but it should give the reader a good sense of Mandela's "roots". There are many biographies of Mandela available in public and academic libraries and on Google Books. Mandela has written at least two autobiographies. I am surprised that these materials have not be referenced in creating this article. This article must be exemplary because Mandela is going to die and many children will be accessing this article. These children must be given our best. Oregonian2012 (talk) 17:34, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Improvements still possible ...

• There are two references 33-34? that need to be worked. One appears to need a <ref name= sort of thing.

• Which one need the <ref name=> and why does ref 33-34 needs work? --Ma-anza (talk) 16:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

• "He ordered for Mandela's release." How about "He ordered Mandela's release."

•  Fixed

• A careful reading will reveal other "style" shortcomings and confusions. When I get time, I'll list them here.
• I would like to see a Background sort of thing before I give this article the thumbs up. Mandela comes from a complex culture of African village life. This village life is not what one would find in Western village life. His father had four wives, for example. In the western world this would called "polygamy" and regarded with some questions and reservations. In western life it may even be illegal. In African village life however this appears to be legal and a normal way of life. Some authorities have indicated this village culture affected his entire life. It is likely unfamiliar to many, many readers. He is a world figure. He may die soon. This article will be accessed by many, many people at his death, especially American school children who will probably be given assignments to write a paper on Mandela. I think it essential that this village culture be briefly explained in the article. It doesn't need to be exhaustive or lengthy, but it should give the reader a good sense of Mandela's "roots". There are many biographies of Mandela available in public and academic libraries and on Google Books. Mandela has written at least two autobiographies. I am surprised that these materials have not be referenced in creating this article. This article must be exemplary because Mandela is going to die and many children will be accessing this article. These children must be given our best. Oregonian2012 (talk) 17:34, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

background

• I would like to see a Background sort of thing before I give this article the thumbs up. Mandela comes from a complex culture of African village life. This village life is not what one would find in Western village life. His father had four wives, for example. In the western world this would called "polygamy" and regarded with some questions and reservations. In western life it may even be illegal. In African village life however this appears to be legal and a normal way of life. Some authorities have indicated this village culture affected his entire life. It is likely unfamiliar to many, many readers. He is a world figure. He may die soon. This article will be accessed by many, many people at his death, especially American school children who will probably be given assignments to write a paper on Mandela. I think it essential that this village culture be briefly explained in the article. It doesn't need to be exhaustive or lengthy, but it should give the reader a good sense of Mandela's "roots". There are many biographies of Mandela available in public and academic libraries and on Google Books. Mandela has written at least two autobiographies. I am surprised that these materials have not be referenced in creating this article. This article must be exemplary because Mandela is going to die and many children will be accessing this article. These children must be given our best. Oregonian2012 (talk) 17:34, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Second attempt for a GA

Greetings, this is now my second attempt in making Nelson Mandela into a GA. This is the way to show readers of all ages about his legacy and how simple it is reading about it. --Ma-anza (talk) 16:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Inspires us how

He inspires us with lots of things because he teaches us that we must fight for each other just like he fought for us. He also inspires us that we must stand against each other as one seed.Ma-anza (talk) 16:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Nonsense sentence

The last paragraph of the Presidency section begins: "Although in favor of freedom of the press, Mandela was important of much of the country's media because it was owned and run by many middle-class whites."

I can't figure out what this is supposed to mean. He was "important of" the media because it was owned by middle-class whites? Lights and freedom (talk) 04:54, 6 February 2023 (UTC)