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Requested move 29 November 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Simplexity22 (talk) 14:51, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Qubadlı → Qubadli – Big enough town which has an established English WP:COMMONNAME (Sources: Al Jazeera, TASS). "Qubadli" itself already redirects here, so it should be changed. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:45, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Funny. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 21:13, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bargushad/Vorotan

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@Nunuxxx: @Golden: @ZaniGiovanni: @Materialscientist: @68.181.17.176:

Hi everyone. Clearly, the ip is going about it the wrong way, but in an article on an Azerbaijani location within that country's borders, why do we use the Armenian name for the river (which does change names as it hops the borders)? Thanks.  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that the etymology of the name is particularly relevant considering that the English WP:COMMONNAME for the river is by a large margin "Vorotan river", as indicated in its article title – this is supported by WP:SET results:
𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 03:22, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that we should also mention Azerbaijani name of the river considering that article is about Gubdali, which is part of Azerbaijan. It will improve information flow for the reader. Abrvagl (talk) 06:01, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Nunuxxx, very insignificant name per search results that is already covered in the wikilinked article itself. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:08, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mr.choppers: The official Azeri name for the river should definitely be indicated alongside the common name, Vorotan. Perhaps something like: Vorotan (Bargushad) river or Bargushad (Vorotan) river — Golden call me maybe? 08:58, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:COMMONNAME is about article title, apparently we are not speaking article title here. I support both options “Vorotan (Bargushad) river or Bargushad (Vorotan) river”. There is solid justification to reflect both names of the river in this article, while I can not see any solid reason against.
I believe that we will not have to take this simple and obvious thing to dispute resolutions. Abrvagl (talk) 11:43, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Since Vorotan seems more common, I would think using Vorotan (Bargushad) river in this article would be suitable and respectful to Armenians and Azerbaijanis. Obviously the names of things are of great importance in disputed regions, so when the COMMONNAME also happens not to be NEUTRAL we have to tread carefully. FWIW, UNECE writes "Vorotan (Bargushad)" (pp. 3, 17). Anyhow, Nunuxxx and ZaniGiovanni make it abundantly clear why the title of Vorotan (river) is not under discussion.  Mr.choppers | ✎  11:56, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Everyone,
I propose a following compromise:
"It is situated along Bazarchay/Bargushad river (called the Vorotan river in Armenia)."
Bazarchay has been an official name of the river in Azerbaijan for at least 100 years. Even in Soviet Armenia maps of 1926 (/media/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Map_of_Armenian_SSR_from_the_GSE_of_1926.jpg) it is called Bazarchay. And since Google was mentioned, in Google maps it is Bazarchay, at least in English version. So why should we create confusion by calling it only Vorotan and not even mentioning its official name that is used in Azerbaijan? For example, would it be relevant to call Lake Sevan in Armenia by the name that is used in Azerbaijan, Göyçə gölü, and not even mention its official name?
Best regards,
@68.181.17.176: 68.181.17.156 (talk) 02:44, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nunuxxx and ZaniGiovanni: Do either of you object to using Vorotan (Bargushad) river as proposed above? — Golden call me maybe? 06:44, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine by me considering its UNECE usage. – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 07:35, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do object. It should be officially used name in Azerbaijan first and then the Vorotan river. Something like: "Bazarchay/Bargushad (Vorotan) river".
The IP @68.181.17.176 68.181.17.254 (talk) 21:46, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dear IP; using Vorotan first is for the same reason that we write "Danube" in the article on Galați rather than "Dunărea" (the Romanian name for the Danube): it's because it is the most commonly used name in English. Because this is in a disputed area, several editors agree that it is appropriate to include "Bargushad" as well. If other editors can calmly change their minds, then I think you ought to be able to do the same. Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:40, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mr.choppers, just for the record and future references. Disputed area is Nagorno-Karabakh. Qubadli is one of previously occupied territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh area and not considered disputed. Abrvagl (talk) 05:44, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Abrvagl - thank you for the clarification; I only meant to indicate that the area is in a region that has changed hands in recent times.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:03, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The English version in the Google maps is Bazarchay. So it should be ""It is situated along Bazarchay (Bargushad) river". But as a compromise I will accept: "It is situated along Bazarchay/Bargushad river (called the Vorotan river in Armenia)." And Abrvagl is absolutely correct that Qubadli is not a disputed area. It was occupied and decimated by Armenian forces, but it wasn't part of Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Republic. 68.181.17.246 (talk) 16:43, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
IP, please familiarise yourself with WP:COMMONNAME. The river's English common name is "Vorotan", so it is impossible to avoid mentioning it. And mentioning it also isn't a "compromise", it is a requirement. The "Vorotan (Bargushad) river" is the best result you can get out of this that will satisfy (or displease less) both sides. — Golden call me maybe? 16:58, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even if "Vorotan" (an Armenian name) is a common English name (which is debatable), WP:COMMONNAME states: "Alternative names may be used in article text when context dictates that they are more appropriate than the name used as the title of the article." Since Qubadli is in Azerbaijan both de jure and de facto, it just makes sense to use the "alternative" name Bazarchay/Bargushad river. The context here is the fact that Qubadli is in Azerbaijan.
Moreover, Soviet maps of both Armenia and Azerbaijan clearly refers to the river as Bazarchay. It can be checked by zooming-in in the following maps :https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Armenian_SSR_from_the_GSE_of_1926.jpg
/media/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Map_of_Azerbaijan_SSR_from_the_Atlas_of_1928.jpg
Also according to WP:COMMONNAME "...the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred. Other encyclopedias are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register, as well as what names are most frequently used." And The Azerbaijani Soviet Encyclopedia published in 1976-1987 refers to the river as Bazarchay and Bargushad.
I would also argue that using Vorotan first in the article about an Azerbaijani city would violate Wikipedia's neutral point of view (NPOV) policy, especially given the history of the city.
The IP @68.181.17.176 68.181.17.213 (talk) 19:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maps are not how common name identified, however, I agree we are not talking about article title here and alternative name can be used if it is more appropriate for the context. In my view Bargushad (Vorotan) river is most appropriate to the context, however I wont hard object against Vorotan (Bargushad) river. P.S. your IP is not static, it is getting messy, it would be better if you create account instead of using different IPs each time. Abrvagl (talk) 20:12, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
NPOV and COMMONNAME both have to be taken into account, hence the current compromise which I believe is a clear improvement on the status quo. The search results listed by Nunuxx above make Commonname abundantly clear, while Soviet encyclopedias say very little about which name is mostly used in the English-speaking world of today.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:09, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the commonality of the name, here is Google maps shows in an English-speaking country:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gubadly/@39.4413541,46.1636879,13.73z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x403df5884b8d675b:0x90f6e8b52e4119c0!8m2!3d39.3452799!4d46.5788748
Note that this is a snippet of the river in Armenia. One can clearly see that the river is tagged as Bazarchay.
If the English common name of an object is not established then what should we do? Shouldn't we see how many people use one name as opposed to the other and then decide? Over 10 million people who live in the region call it Bazarchay/Bargushad, and only about 3 million call it Vorotan. Shouldn't then the English name be based on the most commonly used name? HaciLeylek (talk) 16:49, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In Wikipedia, we determine the common name not by what Google Maps is using or how many people use what name, but with what reliable sources use (again urging you to read WP:COMMONNAME to help understand this better). Nunuxxx has demonstrated in their above comment how Vorotan is the common name for the river and arguing about it further is a time-waste (and also irrelevant to this article, it should be done in Vorotan (river)). — Golden call me maybe? 17:22, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Would then the Royal Geographical Society of the Great Britain be a reliable and independent source? 68.181.17.101 (talk) 22:55, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Would also "The Republic of Armenia; the first year 1918-1919" by Richard G. Hovannisian be a reliable and independent source? 68.181.17.101 (talk) 23:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes both of those are reliable. But again, that is a topic for Talk:Vorotan (river), not here. — Golden call me maybe? 06:25, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1. "A Gazetteer of the World or A Dictionary of Geographical Knowledge: Vol.IV Hensburrow-Lurin" published by the Royal Geographical Society of the Great Britain refers to the river as "Bazar-chai" on page 450 in the entry for Karabakh.
2. Richard Hovannisian in his book "The Republic of Armenia; the first year 1918-1919" refers to the river az Bazarchai on pages 207, 208, 209 and there is a map of the river on page 166, where it is marked as Bazarchai. 68.181.17.221 (talk) 16:57, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again, take this to Talk:Vorotan (river), this article is about Qubadli. — Golden call me maybe? 16:59, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Golden, I agree. In the article it should say: "It [Qubadli] is situated along Bazarchai river" 68.181.17.221 (talk) 17:04, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given all that information, I think the river name should be Bazarchai in the article for Qubadli town. 68.181.17.221 (talk) 17:03, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dear IP, there are currently 5 other editors who came to consensus ( Vorotan (Bargushad) river) and trying to explain you how Wikipedia works. Now, let me to make it straight here, if you want to edit in the Wikipedia and improve it, then you better listen what other editors says to you, because they are trying to help you as you are new here. If you will ignore what other editors says to you, and continue pushing your point of view, then most probably you will be banned from editing. A b r v a g l (PingMe) 17:31, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On several occasions, I have felt patronizing attitudes toward myself in here. Nevertheless, throughout the discussion, I have been following the principles below:
-Assume good faith
-Be polite and avoid personal attacks
-Be welcoming to newcomers
-Seek dispute resolution if needed
-Neutral point of view
-No original research
-Verifiability
Nothing that I said in this discussion warrants a ban. I can be convinced, but should and would not be bullied to change my stance.
still respectfully,
The IP 68.181.17.189 (talk) 01:04, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dear IP, please read WP:CIR. A b r v a g l (PingMe) 04:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again, given contentious history between Armenia and Azerbaijan, I would propose the following text:
"It is situated along Bazarchay/Bargushad river (called the Vorotan river in Armenia)."
I believe this statement should satisfy (or dissatisfy the least) both Azerbaijanis and Armenians. If nobody objects then, let's fix that sentence accordingly and move on. Otherwise, let's seek dispute resolution. 68.181.17.189 (talk) 00:36, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think anyone really agrees with you, and your mode of discussion is simply to ignore everything you are told and to repeat your original arguments ad infinitum. COMMONNAME is the name given to the article Vorotan (river). Until that changes, that is the main name to be used here as well. Several editors have agreed to add Bazarchay for the various reasons we (and you) have mentioned. It's a small victory for you, why can you not be happy and move on to the next struggle? Let me clarify one last time:
"Vorotan" is the COMMONNAME in English and will be the name used first on this page unless the title of that article changes. I.e., if you want "Bazarchay" to be the main name here, then go open a discussion at Vorotan with all your sources and arguments from above. Those arguments are wasted on this page, because this discussion cannot change the consensus about what the COMMONNAME of this river is. I assure you that dispute resolution is unlikely to end in your favor. Qui trop embrasse mal étreint.  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Mr.choppers! Will do! Ağlamayan bəbəyə məmə vermirllər! 68.181.17.137 (talk) 06:35, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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