Talk:Raptio

This article was nominated for deletion on 24 May 2009. The result of the discussion was keep.

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A summary of this article appears in Bride kidnapping.

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Distinguish from bride kidnapping

ok. this needs work. bride kidnapping focusses on the present situation in various cultures. However, this is a topic of immense importance to many historical cultures, and even to remote anthropological antiquity as a whole (tribal warfare). A decent discussion within this context is sorely needed. Abduction of women in raids isn't "bride kidnapping" proper, since the women abducted will not necessarily end up as "brides", but possibly as slaves, concubines etc. --dab (𒁳) 14:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Random note: Depending on the outcome of the merge proposal, I think the practice of Rakshasa Vivaha (apparently quite old; Kautilya (ca. 350 BC) mentions it specifically in the Arthashastra (III.2)) needs to be mentioned somewhere; I'm suprised it doesn't appear under "Bride Kidnapping"... Aryaman (☼) 15:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, there are lots of cases in ancient literature. "Bride kidnapping" wasn't written with a historical point of view in mind, and frankly the title "bride kidnapping" doesn't fit so well for these topics. I've only placed the merge template for now because this is a placeholder stub, and I wanted to discourage any passing deletionists until we can expand it. dab (𒁳) 15:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Worth adding?: In the Qur’an, marriage to female prisoners of war (lit. "those who your right hand possesses") is commanded for those who cannot afford to marry “free believing women” (IV.25). The right to this practice is also granted to Mohammad himself (XXXIII.50). Aryaman (☼) 15:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, the equation of "those who your right hand possesses" with "prisoners of war" is not my addition: this is directly from the commentary of the revered Maulana Muhammad Ali (1917; reprint 1996). Aryaman (☼) 16:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have edited bride kidnapping and hadn't realised that raptio existed, so thanks for drawing this to my attention. There are some concepts referred to above that have their own articles: see Islam_and_slavery#Marriage_and_concubinage, Ma malakat aymanukum, and Ma malakat aymanukum and sex. I leave it to others to tease out the distinctions between slave and prisoner of war within Islamic marital jurisprudence, and how that fits into any discussion of forced marriage. What I can comment on is the proposed merger. I agree that abduction should not be elided, as in some systems the women end up as respectable married members of their communities (and are still in contact with their birth families) and in others they utterly don't; this distinction is vital. By all means write commentary that links the concepts, but I am not convinced that a merger is the answer. Also, I don't understand about the placeholder stub mentioned above -- both Raption and Bride kidnapping are much more than stubs. BrainyBabe (talk) 18:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - I think the main problem is that "raptio" isn't such a great title. Perhaps we should call it rape (abduction)? Or just Frauenraub? It will also be difficult to divide the scopes of the two articles cleanly so as to avoid WP:CFORK. dab (𒁳) 19:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rape (abduction) might work. The German term is more obscure than the Latin one, so I would oppose that. And look what I've just found, hiding under the bed with the dust bunnies: Raptus, which specifically includes the "raptio" meaning (as well as spiritual rapture). BrainyBabe (talk) 20:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

good catch with raptus. It should probably be {{split}} as a dictdef. I realize Frauenraub is obscure, but I do find it used as a loanword in English, albeit mostly as a term in art history. --dab (𒁳) 10:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions for inclusion

Depending on where this article is headed (esp. re: title and scope)...

Instances of Frauenraub in Literature

The Role and Function of Women in Kudrun and in Ulrich von Zatzikhoven’s Lanzelet (Dissertation; 1997) by E. P. Whitfield (M.Litt; University of Newcastle upon Tyne). Touches upon the role of Frauenraub in the story in its historical context. Table of Contents (PDF), Text (PDF) Note: The thing I found most interesting is the presentation of the protagonist's engaging in Frauenraub as a "necessary preliminary" (pg. 23) arising from his social rank as a member of the "warrior society", in addition to having been egged on to do it ... by his mother. Also look at Section 4.8 Ginover's Abduction (pg. 153) for the link between abduction and Celtic mythology (which also made me think of several abduction tales from Germanic mythology...) Aryaman (☼) 20:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You will see in bride kidnapping that the same thing holds true today. A young man will be encouraged to settle down and catch himself a wife, and some of this "egging on" is from his mother. Remember that in a patrilocal system the man's marriage means that the older woman gains an extra pair of hands for the farmstead, someone to help with the chores, provide grandchildren, care for her as she ages. BrainyBabe (talk) 21:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

of course. I think this article is duly listed under "violence against women", but Frauenraub does not necessarily imply that any violence is involved. This is patrilocal society, and the "legal" course would be the father giving away the bride, which may imply or not imply just as much "violence". As opposed to the "legal" procedure, the prospective bride will at least be able to influence the success of the abduction by greater or lesser cooperation. And of course the practice meets with approval of the tribe of the abductor, men and women. It is properly violence of one community against another community, and since the abducted woman switches communities in the process, she is in an ambiguous role. As evident in the Sabines story, where the women's loyalty lies both with their fathers and with their new husbands. dab (𒁳) 08:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm unclear here which societies you are talking about: current, historical, or mythological ones, and which. In the ones that I am familiar with, in Central Asia now, the woman does not "switch communities". She remains part of the same ethnic group, uses the same language, possibly stays in the same village, maybe even sees her parents every day. The whole "tribe" (they would say "people") agrees with or connives at bride kidnapping, because the bride and groom come from the same people. It is not like the case of the Sabine Women. As for the father giving away the bride, in any society, that is a sign of patriarchy, not patrilocality -- granted, the two often go together, but should not be conflated.

So thanks for digging up the Frauenraub dissertation, and by all means use it as a ref and include lots of its info in the article(s), but please let's stick to plain English as much as possible for the basic concrete concepts (i.e. what happens in the world today, and anthropology), with forks to the foreign and limited terms for specific usages (e.g. art history and mythology examples). BrainyBabe (talk) 13:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

yes, sorry. I was referring to the historical "tribal warfare" situation (as in the Book of Judges (exterminate the other tribe), and Romans vs. Sabines (no escalation)). I suppose the "bride kidnapping" takes place within a tribe, while Frauenraub more generally can include warlike or just mischievous conflict between tribes. I realize that the historical/mythological approach will differ from the contemporary ethnological account, which is why we have two separate articles at present. dab (𒁳) 16:01, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that one main difference is that bride kidnapping is always of an individual, whereas (am I correct?) Frauenraub involves catching a group of women. That might give us an indication of how to split the content. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

that's a good observation. "Bride kidnapping" is more civilized and ruled by convention, or may even become symbolic as a part of wedding customs, while "group bride-napping" (even if still only one bona fide bride per "raptor") is closer to open war, and may imply a greater danger of all-out escalation of hostilities. dab (𒁳) 16:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rapere and raptus in Medieval English law

I noted this over at Raptus as well, regarding the split/merge issue.

Raptus was apparently conflatable with raptio. Case in point:

Christopher Cannon (1993); Raptus in the Chaumpaigne Release and a Newly Discovered Document Concerning the Life of Geoffrey Chaucer in Speculum, no. 68, pp. 74-94 [1]

A detailed discussion of the terms raptus and rapere, their background, role in church and secular law (especially medieval England), as well as the wide difference in punishment the two entailed. Aryaman (☼) 12:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

raptio is properly the noun ("rapture") and raptus the adjective ("state of being rapt"). The adjective apparently was nominalized and came to be used synonyously. Two terms for one and the same thing. dab (𒁳) 12:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, poor work on my part. I thought it was relevant as it treats the historical development in the meanings "abduction" on the one hand and "rape" on the other. Aryaman (☼) 12:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't suppose so, although the precise process would need to be traced in more detail. In any case, I've made raptus a disambiguation page now. dab (𒁳) 12:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Rape of the Sabine Women"

This part: "The legendary event known as the "Rape of the Sabine Women", while ultimately motivated sexually, did not entail sexual violation of the Sabine women on the spot, who were rather abducted, and then implored by the Romans to marry them (as opposed to striking a deal with their fathers or brothers first, as would have been required by law)."

This really doesn't have anything to do with terminology. Also it seems a bit naive to accept the legend's insistence that sexual violation did not take place as truth. All in all, it doesn't seem to belong here. Anyone disagree? Kold Dusk (talk) 15:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of sexual violence template

User:SasiSasi has added the sexual violence template to this article. I can see the strong link between the topics, but am not sure it is quite right to include it. There are plenty of bride kidnappings taking place that do not involve sexual violence or physical harm. Maybe it is like prostitution -- a lot of it involves sexual violence, but it is an overstatement to think that all of it falls within that domain. Any thoughts? BrainyBabe (talk) 16:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The abducted women would be forced to have sex with their abductors (that is the whole point of the abduction), so sexual violence would always be involved. Threats and intimidation are also a form of violence.--Batmacumba (talk) 09:03, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Feminism

Hello raptio, Iam having all my contributions deleted from feminism and other related articles.

The correct place to take up your concerns is on the talk pages of the articles affected, and, if you think it worthwhile, on a project page (such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Gender Studies/Feminism Task Force). This page is for discussing issues about its associated article, raptio. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:32, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Inconsistent Mitrochondrial Eve & Y-Adam Ages

Passing by, I noticed this sentence under History: 'As a case in point, "Mitochondrial Eve" is estimated to be about twice as old (140,000 years) as "Y-chromosomal Adam" (60,000 years).' The linked articles actually show the opposite, i.e., the date given here for Mitochondrial Eve is approximately correct, but the various credible dates for Y-chromosomal Adam, according to that article, are all many thousands of years older than those for Eve.--Jxtor (talk) 16:17, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mistranslation of citation 5?

Citation 5, the review of Pieśń hajducka Słowian południowych (https://www.jstor.org/stable/847789) does not justify the quote in the article.

The article currently states:

Mutual abduction of women between Christian and Muslim communities was common in the Balkans under Ottoman rule, and is a frequent theme in the Hajduk songs of the period.[5]

Reading the brief article (1.2 pages), here is the relevant quote:

Als ein unwahrscheinliches Ereignis betrachtet der Verf. die Heirat zwischen einem Christen und einer Türkin in den Uskokenliedern (S. 219, 221). Diess relativ häufige Motiv scheint m. E. jedoch den damaligen Verhältnissen zu entsprechen. Die Türkin ist hier nicht im ethnischen Sinn zu verstehen. Viel mehr handelt es sich um eine bosnische Mohammedaner in, welche die gleiche Muttersprache wieder Uskoke hat. Die Christen und die Mohammedaner wohnten oft in unmittelbarer Nachbarschaft, und der Frauenraub ist seinerzeit eine sehr häufige Erscheinung gewesen, besonders im Bereich der Militärgrenze. Man ,,holte" sich eine Braut.

Immediately we see no large scale kidnappings occurred.

In fact, this section will be misleading to many readers who might incorrectly conclude that there was no large scale kidnapping of women by the Ottomans proper, a sad reality which has been well-documented cf. Slavery in the Ottoman Empire, especially footnotes [11] and [18].

I suggest this sentence either be omitted entirely or replaced with one more representative of the situation. Perhaps this quote should be moved to Bride kidnapping? If the Ottomans are mentioned at all in this article their vast exercise of raptio should absolutely be discussed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluecartwheel (talk • contribs) 00:54, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]