Talk:Red Barn Murder

The movie version

The movie that was made of this case and is referred to at the bottom of the document was made in 1935. I have therefore removed the further claim that Tom Waits had a song in that movie on the grounds that Tom Waits wasn't born until 1949. --Stenun 12:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I hope you think this is a reasonable edit. --Stenun 12:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Wait a minute, I think I might have made a mistake due to some poor wording *g*. The way it was written, I took it to mean the film had a song by Tom Waits. Was it meant to say that Tom Waits has written a song about this case that is completely unassociated from the movie? --Stenun 12:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I think it said "and" rather than "featuring". Yomangani^talk 12:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

True, but it was the "and" that was the source of the confusion. It was "a movie featuring Tom Slaughter and a song by Tom Waits" (roughly) or words to that effect. I don't see the point in putting it back exactly as it was, I hope my new edit prevents any future confusion and still relays the information accurately. --Stenun 21:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What Child?

The article refers to William and Maria's child. What child is this? The reference is made as though we should know there was achild.

The article had been vandalised and the section on the murder (which mentions the child) removed . Yomangani^talk 17:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Tom Waits Song

Tom's song 'the Red Barn' is from his album "The Bone Machine", which was out before the album cited in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.114.179.210 (talk • contribs) (21:40, 19 February 2007)

Ralphy

Vaughan Williams. Trust me. qp10qp 16:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Just laziness on not checking the link, sorry. Yomangani^talk 16:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Corder's burial?

According to the "Execution and dissection" section: "Until early this century [William] Corder's skeleton was on display in the Hunterian Museum in the Royal College of Surgeons of England, where it hung beside that of Jonathan Wild. In response to requests from surviving relatives Corder's bones have since been quietly removed and given a proper burial." I wonder who sourced this info? Is the writer talking about the present? Plus, I wonder if FindaGrave.com has recently added Corder to the list? If so, can you find the info for me, please? --Angeldeb82 03:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I have edited this part of the article to show that the skeleton was cremated in 2004 following the guidance of the Human Tissue Act 2004. Moyse's Hall Museum has held discussions with descendants of the Corder family concerning the same act and the artefacts within their collections concerning the Red Barn Murder. --Edmund Patrick 14:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the link you gave me won't show because it displayed an error. Can you fix it? --Angeldeb82 21:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

sorry hopefully these assist in research.[1] and for a 'history of the story [2]and then [3]--Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 08:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

removed link in original statement - link above valid. Sorry for any confusion.--Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 09:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Find-A-Grave says this "Cremated, Location of ashes is unknown. Specifically: Skeleton cremated in 2004; other remains on display at Moyse's Hall Museum at Suffolk." Martinevans123 (talk) 22:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Songs

Having only heard the one song Albion Country Band No Roses Murder of Maria Martin is it the same as Red Barn by Tom Waits. --Edmund Patrick 14:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It's unlikely (even if neither of them are original there were a lot of songs composed in the aftermath) but you can listen to a bit of the Tom Waits' song at Amazon [4] if you already know what the other one sounds like. Yomangani^talk 14:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It was just a thought, I have both artists in my collection, just wondered if Red Barn was an arrangement of Maria Martin song. Thanks --Edmund Patrick 18:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

red barn murder featured article

is it me? but the box says that it was a featured aricle in 2006. I thought it was coming in 2007. --Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 09:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear User:SandyGeorgia looking at the history of red barn and did you know I believe I confused featured article with did you know listing ( dates for featured articles are peer review 17 Feb. 07 and featured article candidate 24th Feb. 07.) and so thought the 06 date was wrong. Apologies Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 21:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you all squared away now? I'm not sure, but you also seem to be confusing the day it appears on main page with when it was featured: two different things. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Polstead

I see that in the opening paragraphs it is not mentioned that the murder happened in Polstead. The way it's worded could suggest to readers unfamiliar with East Anglia that the name of the village in question is Suffolk. Dancarney (talk) 09:54, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Find A Grave profiles

I created the Find A Grave profiles on William Corder and Maria Marten if you wish to add anything to the References section, all right? --Angeldeb82 (talk) 21:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Now both removed fron here, it seems. But in any case, Maria's is no longer easy to find. I have added this image File:Memorial to Maria Marten - geograph.org.uk - 615930.jpg at the Polstead article. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Lead image size

I am resetting (again) the lead image size per WP:MOS#Images:

• Specifying the size of a thumbnail image is not recommended: without specifying a size, the width will be what readers have specified in their user preferences, with a default of 180px (which applies for most readers), and a maximum of 300px. However, the image subject or image properties may call for a specific image width to enhance the readability or layout of an article. Cases where a specific image width is appropriate include:
  • images with extreme aspect ratios
  • detailed maps, diagrams or charts
  • images in which a small region is relevant, but cropping to that region would reduce the coherence of the image
  • a lead image that captures the essence of the article (recommended not to be smaller than 300px, as this will make the image smaller for users who have set 300px in their user preferences).

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Farmer's son or squire's son?

In 19th century England a farmer and a squire were from distinct tiers of society, and the context of the relationship is very different depending on the young man's social class. The introduction states that he was a squire's son, but the rest of the article doesn't seem to support this. It is stated that he "returned to run the farm": if he was running a farm, then he wasn't a squire, he was a yeoman farmer. A squire would rent out most or all of his land, and he was a member of the gentry. He was upper class, a "gentleman". A farmer was middle class. A farmer could become romantically involved with a molecatcher's daughter, or even marry her, without offending 19th century social norms, but a squire could not. Abberley2 (talk) 00:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

fair comment and glad it was removed. He was a son of a yeoman farmer who rented the farm which he worked. Edmund Patrick – confer 12:26, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

A little question..

What is "Brewers" cited in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.126.224.229 (talk) 21:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC) I assume ( I know not a good idea) that it is a mistake in referencing it should lead to Donaldson, Willie (2004). Brewer's Rogues, Villains and Eccentrics. Phoenix Press, 736. ISBN 0753817918. I will try to verify. Edmund Patrick – confer 13:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Where was the barn?

Anyone know where the barn stood? Locals must know of it, I mean, its a famous story. --RyanTee82 (talk) 03:21, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

• see [5] for the information. Edmund Patrick – confer 11:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's a blog link which has a video clip. May be of interest. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:48, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Rumours

I have recently read the book written by Donald McCormick referenced in this section and he claims that Caroline Palmer discovered that Samuel 'Beauty' Smith confessed to being the murderer, not a Gypsy woman as stated here. Palmer's tale of Smith's involvement was that he was about to rob the Corder household, hence was hiding in the barn, and saw Maria and Will Corder struggle and a gun went off. Maria collapsed and Will ran away. Smith then stabbed Maria to finish her off as she had seen him. Will then returned, realised Maria was dead and buried the body - assuming that the shot had killed her. This supports Will's testimony that he did shoot her but not stab her even though stab wounds were found on the body.

I suggest that "Caroline Palmer in researching the murder (she was appearing frequently in the melodrama based on the case) discovered that Corder may have not killed Maria, but that a local gypsy woman might have been the killer." be replaced by "Caroline Palmer in researching the murder (she was appearing frequently in the melodrama based on the case) discovered that Corder may have not killed Maria, but that Samuel 'Beauty' Smith might have been the killer."

Apologies if I'm not doing this right - first attempt at interacting with Wikipedia. Louise 86.128.81.202 (talk) 15:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Ghost story . . .

I remember reading in Ripley's Believe It or Not that there was some sort of ghost story about Maria Marten. If good documentation for this can be found, it would be a useful addition to the article. HammerFilmFan (talk) 09:02, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Melodrama by French

Am surprised there is no mention of the melodrama by Samuel French, which has been adapted, with a score, by Brian J. Burton: [6]. In fact, Burton's site claims:"This has been performed thousands of times all over the world and has been a recommended text for schools for several years." But I can't find a date for the original French edition. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:26, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Removed the reference to Tom Waits

So there was an assertion that the song "Murder in the Red Barn" was about this incident, based on citing this link to the the lyrics (and presumably on the title to the song). Here's an alternative link to the lyrics, from Waits' official site. Now in the absence of a secondary source, I'd say it's original research to come to this conclusion, especially as the only things that the lyrics have in common with this murder are the words "murder" and "red barn" there's nothing else to suggest the song is about Maria Marten. And, this quote from the lyrics suggests it isn't:

You can hear the Buckshot hounds/ The watchman said to Reba the loon/ Was it pale at Manzanita/ Or Blind Bob the racoon?/ Pin it on a drifter/ They sleep beneath the bridge/ One plays the violin/ And sleeps inside a fridge

Possums also get a mention, later on.

Anyway, that's why I've removed the Tom Waits reference. 95.150.42.220 (talk) 18:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I've tracked down some third party comment about the song's possible inspiration and have added Tom Waits back to the article, with this context. 95.150.42.220 (talk) 11:51, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

New Investigation

I have recently published a book detailing the results of a brand new investigation into the Red Barn murder. Murder in the Red Barn, ISBN 9780956287021. Extracts from the book can be read here http://www.mirlibooks.com/extract-from-murder-in-the-red-barn.html. Several myths concerning the Red Barn case have been exploded, and reasonable hypotheses are offered for the two great mysteries: did Ann Martin/Marten really have those dreams? And why did Corder deny to the end that he stabbed Maria?

Positive evidence has been found that Donald McCormick included material in his book that was manufactured to make a good story. One of the alleged key players in the Red Barn was ‘Beauty Smith’. Using the latest data on transportees and material from the National Library of Australia I have been able to trace his history and show that Donald McCormick’s claims about him could not possibly be true http://www.mirlibooks.com/beauty-smith.html.

I invite Wikipedia editors to view this material and decide whether to include and/or link it to the main page. I have gone back to primary sources: contemporary reports, documents and press reports, in the preparation of this new account of the Murder in the Red Barn.--Peter Maggs 17:56, 6 December 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Maggs (talk • contribs)

I see that a new section has now been added by new editor User:Puzz623. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:33, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Unreviewed featured articles/2020/2004–2009

Linked this in a draft of mine, and followed the link to discover it an FA. I believe the FA star is certainly still applicable; nonetheless, aside from the same sandwiching issues at the same author's The Four Stages of Cruelty, there are a few sentences where an earlier era's looseness with inline cites is visible:

• To avoid any chance of a mistrial, he was indicted on nine charges, including one of forgery. (#Trial)
• The bust of Corder held by Moyse's Hall Museum in Bury St Edmunds is an original made by Child of Bungay as a tool for the study of Corder's phrenology. (#Execution and dissection)
• In his written confession, Corder admitted that he and Marten had argued on the day of the murder over the possibility of the burial site being discovered. (#Rumours)
• Multiple spots under #Popular interest, mostly of the same nature as this (individual sentences)

These are all fairly obvious cases of "something that wasn't considered likely to be challenged, and where the description given by the sentence itself was considered sufficient to verify it". Indeed this is still permissible by policy, but modern FACs would probably challenge them. Still, I don't doubt the same (print) sources used elsewhere in the article could easily be used by someone with access to cite them; if any did turn out to have verification issues, they're also all small enough to be easily resolved. Like the author's other works, the article is generally excellent and should be marked satisfactory at URFA. Vaticidalprophet 15:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

As well as the spots you point out, the citation formatting could stand to be tidied up (e.g. four books are reffed in full inline; the remainder have short footnotes and then full references in #References), and there are a couple of references which would not pass muster as high quality reliable sources today (certainly the blogpost from "The Crushed Tragedian"; I would also be side-eyeing the amount of reference to Victorian sources and to modern popular generalist sources like Brewer's) whereas a relatively recent academic monograph (McCorristine 2014) is cited only twice and a couple of more recent academic sources which look relevant aren't cited at all (Pettitt 2014, Spaul & Wilbert 2016). Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:32, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

(And I've fiddled with the images to hopefully fix the sandwiching issues) Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:52, 23 September 2024 (UTC)