Talk:Remutaka Range

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Untitled

Are the Orongoronga's part of this mountain chain?Book M 10:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When is the move to "Remutaka Range" appropriate?

On May 31st, 2018, I moved the page from "Rimutaka Range" to "Remutaka Range", to reflect the recent change in official name. On June 25th, however, User:Capitals00 moved it back, citing WP:COMMONNAME. While WP:COMMONNAME is certainly an appropriate policy to follow, I'm not sure how it should be applied here. Rimutaka/Remutaka Range is a geographic feature, not a town; there are few people living there who might have a vested interest in the old name. Similarly (not being a town) there are few businesses that use the name "Rimutaka", and apparently most of the signs there that used the name "Rimutaka" have now been changed to "Remutaka". Also, there are no non-English-alphabet characters (such as macrons) involved in the change in name, so WP:ENGLISH is not an issue (beyond WP:COMMONNAME).

At some point, "Remutaka Range" is likely to become more 'common' than the old name "Rimutaka Range". If that's not the case now, then when?

Ross Finlayson (talk) 14:50, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We should go by whichever name is correct in the NZ Gazeteer [1]. You can request a technical request for move: Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests as well as the associated Talk page. Ajf773 (talk) 02:46, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't really address my question. There's no dispute that "Remutaka Range" is now the 'official name', according to the NZ Gazetteer. However, Wikipedia considers 'official names' to be only a secondary consideration when deciding what a page's title should be; see WP:OFFICIAL. More important is the common name in English; i.e., WP:COMMONNAME. The question is: Is "Remutaka Range" now considered to also be the common name for the range? If not, then when (and under what criteria) is this likely to happen? Ross Finlayson (talk) 18:10, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Considering Rimutaka or Remutaka are not English names, we can't really answer that on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME. I'll ping some users I know who may be able to clarify this more @Lcmortensen: @Schwede66:. Ajf773 (talk) 20:54, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"we can't really answer that on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME." Huh? The whole point of WP:COMMONNAME is to consider how the name commonly appears in English-language text (as this is a policy for the English-language Wikipedia). The name's language of origin is irrelevant. Ross Finlayson (talk) 23:00, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If it's controversial (and if somebody reverts a move then it is), the only way to resolve it is to go through a formal move request. Schwede 66 20:58, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Schwede66 Thanks for the clarification. I don't think I feel strongly enough about this to go through the trouble of making a 'formal move request' myself - but if others do, then by all means go ahead. It would be really useful, though, to hear from @User:Capitals00 to find out why he was so adamant about reverting the original move... Ross Finlayson (talk) 23:00, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Living in the Wairarapa, I can say the usage is now definitely more in favour of Remutaka for the range itself - the NZTA switched all the signage on SH 2 in April/May to Remutaka (I went across to Wellington earlier this month and they've definitely changed), and the local news outlets now use Remutaka ([2]). However as in Whanganui/Wanganui, it's up to individuals and businesses if and when the adopt the new spelling. From what I've read ([3]), the Rimutaka electorate is due to switch to Remutaka at the boundary review next year, but Rimutaka Prison will keep the old spelling for the foreseeable future. So IMHO, now may be the ideal time to move the article for the range. Lcmortensen (mailbox) 00:19, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 June 2018

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. Consensus is clear. bd2412 T 03:44, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rimutaka Range → Remutaka Range – The name officially changed from Rimutaka Range to Remutaka Range through the Rangitāne Tū Mai Rā (Wairarapa Tamaki nui-ā-Rua) Claims Settlement Act 2017 (passed 14 August 2017). There is evidence that the Remutaka spelling is now rapidly coming into common use, and therefore meets WP:NAMECHANGES and WP:COMMONNAME. Lcmortensen (mailbox) 04:26, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support There has been some discussion on the article's talk page before this move request was started and the rationale put forward there makes a strong point for the name change. That includes, for example, official road signs having been changed already. Schwede 66 18:07, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support per previous discussion in Talk and by WP:COMMONNAME, which in New Zealand, article names for geographic features should match that as per the New Zealand Gazeteer. Ajf773 (talk) 10:44, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's important for everyone to understand that names listed as 'official' in the NZ Gazetteer (or elsewhere) do not necessarily dictate article titles in Wikipedia; see WP:OFFICIALNAMES. The criteria for WP:COMMONNAME are different. In this case, though, I support the move (obviously, because I made the move originally :-) based on user Lcmortensen's arguments for WP:COMMONNAME noted above. Ross Finlayson (talk) 12:07, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I generally support the official names but the margin of prevalence of the usage is very different between these two names. Read WP:OFFICIALNAMES. Result number on Google search shows "Rimutaka Range" is 10 times more common and more than 40 times more common on Google Books compared to "Remutaka Range".[4][5] Capitals00 (talk) 05:33, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support The reasoning given by Capitals00 above is spurious. As they say, read WP:OFFICIALNAMES, and also WP:NAMECHANGES, which say that extra weight is given to secondary sources published after the official change of name. This is something that Capitals00 has failed to do. The search statistics given by Capitals00 go back waaaaay before the name change, e.g. on the first page of search results that Capitals00 links, the publication years are 2006, 2002, 1991, 1897, 1897, 1972, 1960s, 1990, 1964 and 1960. So not a lot of weight, let alone extra weight given there to usage after the official change of name. By contrast, the local newspaper for the area, the Wairarapa Times-Age, has, since 9 March 2018, used 'Remutaka Range' exclusively – see the newspaper's editorial on the matter here. On that basis, I support the move. Paora (talk) 11:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. To my embarrassment, I didn't realise the name had changed. Agree with Ajf773. Basie (talk) 10:06, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. "Rimutaka Range" is still commonly used,[6][7][8][9] and there are more overall results for "Rimutaka" not "Remutaka". Lorstaking (talk) 10:23, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The WTA editorial about them changing the spelling is dated 9 March 2018 - all but one of the sources provided predate that editorial.Lcmortensen (mailbox) 01:33, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also, overall results for "Rimutaka" vs "Remutaka" aren't relevant here, as the discussion is purely about "Remutaka Range". Searches for "Rimutaka" will pick up other uses, such as for the name of the incline, the cycle trail, the prison etc. And in the case of the prison, for example, it has been stated that there are no immediate plans to change its name, so will naturally appear as "Rimutaka". Paora (talk) 01:47, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Pretty obvious here. The name has been changed, and reliable sources are now using the new name. GNews search of results for only the last month shows that pretty clearly. From WP:NAMECHANGES (emphasis is in the origina): " . . . we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match." We should follow WP policy here and change the name of the article. First Light (talk) 05:53, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.