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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented. I didn't include RIO together with the other brands. The rest of the suggestions were implemented
Dear all,
I would like to suggest to update the article as the figures are largely outdated (2015), some information wrong and some missing as described in detail below. Please note that I have a financial conflict of interest as I am being paid by TRATON SE. Therefore, I will not make any edits myself but hope that uninvolved editors could review my suggestions and make changes if they find them appropriate.
You can find my suggestion in my user space User:Conandcon/TRATON_SE. Here is also a diff so that you can see my suggested changes vs. the current article.
Detailled description of proposed updates
Introduction:
First sentence: I would like to suggest to add TRATON's RIO brand to complete the list of brands. The brand was introduced in 2016 and is already now shortly described in the article under "Brands". (source Automotive World). I do not suggest to delete content here.
Second sentence: I would like to suggest to update sales and change from 2015 to 2018 numbers. (180,000 --> 233,000 sold vehicles) (source AFP at France24)
Fourth sentence (starting "As of December"): Update employee numbers from 2015 to 2018 and name. (76,000 --> 81,000 employees) (source Traton website facts & figures)
History:
6th paragraph: I would like to suggest to delete the latter part of the sentence as commercial vehicles brand organizationally and operationally reorganized as of 1 January 2019. Delete: "...AG in legal terms, but was designated a partner of the new commercial vehicle group from an organizational and operational point of view. "
Explanation of issue: See Volkswagen annual report 2018 page 161: “As part of the changes in the management structure of the Volkswagen Group, the Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles brand will be allocated to the Passenger Cars segment from January 1, 2019 and the segment will be renamed Passenger Cars and Light Commercial Vehicles. Consequently, the Passenger Cars Business Area will then include the Volks-wagen Commercial Vehicles brand in the financial reporting. The Commercial Vehicles segment will continue to comprise the Commercial Vehicles Business Area, but from January 1, 2019, will exclude the Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles brand. The Automotive Division will remain unchanged.”)
At the end of the history section: Suggestion to add (no deletion) transformation into SE (including source) following logic of description of earlier transformation into AG and name change. (source German daily)
Below a possible addition of transformation into SE: Suggestion to add (no deletion) information regarding stock listing in Frankfurt and Stockholm as a major milestone in the company's history. (source Bloomberg)
Corporate Structure:
Last sentence: Here I would like to suggest to delete the last sentence (starting "The Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles brand"...). This information is wrong as commercial vehicles brand is not considered associate partner after reorganization as of 1 January 2019. (Please see same source as first bullet point/first suggestion for history section)
Brands:
MAN Truck & Bus: Here I would like to suggest to update the numbers at the end (2015 --> 2018) and change the tense of the sentence before so that it fits to 2019. source MAN SE annual report 2018 (pdf; pp. 39-40))
Scania: Suggestion to delete old, 2015 figures and replace them with 2018 figures as source was updated. (same source as before; Scania website has been updated)
Volkswagen Caminhões e Ônibus: Suggestion to delete old, 2015 figures and add total vehicle sales of MAN Latin America. In addition, suggestion to delete numbers for sales of trucks and buses as they are not publicly available for MAN Latin America. New source: MAN SE Annual Report 2018 (pdf; p. 41)
RIO: Suggestion to replace old, no longer existing company name (Volkswagen Truck & Bus) with new name (TRATON) including new source
In addition to these suggested changes, I checked the current sources and either formatted them now including a url or used a new, more reliable, independent source, e.g. where a press release was used before.
I am looking forward to feedback. Please let me know if you have any questions or if I should do something different.
@Eight.valve:, @Urbanoc:, wondering if you would be interested to look at this request, since you have made edits to this article before.
I implemented many of your suggestions, but , after closer examination of the article, I toned down many of the PR stuff I found. I don't know who added it, but it was too much. The nonsensical PR wording started from the lead section: "The Group aims to realign the transport system – with its products, its services, and as a partner to its customers" (?).
I also removed some colourful wording, making sentences more sticking to facts (removed WP:SOLUTIONS, marketing babble, and so on). I removed some paragraphs coming from the company PR that didn't bring any real information and could be considered close paraphrasing (WP:COPYVIO). I didn't include RIO together with the vehicle marques as it isn't really that. Regards. --Urbanoc (talk) 00:30, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Urbanoc, Thank you very much, this is greatly appreciated! Also, not sure who added the "PR stuff". After your changes and the further changes by Melcous, might it make sense to remove the maintenance template and also close this edit request? Also Melcous, may I ask why you deleted the information about the management? Traton's set-up in a matrix organization with members from the brands in the board is not a usual set-up of a company and might therefore be of interest to readers. Just thought I'd ask. Thanks again and best regards, Conandcon (talk) 12:21, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion sure, the cleanup templates can be removed, as the problems cited are no more, at least not article-wide (note that someone can disagree with me and re-add them, as Wikipedia is a policy and consensus-based project). Closing request. --Urbanoc (talk) 12:46, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Urbanoc, I removed the management section because it was written in a promotional way (e.g. "Brands coordinated in an optimum way" is clearly not neutral language) and because the list of names was to a primary source with no evidence that any of those people are notable. That is exactly the kind of information that belongs on a company website, not in an encyclopedia. Thanks, Melcous (talk) 23:45, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Urbanoc, I misread the comment above which was directed to you and then mentioned me. My comment is a response to Conandcon's question above about why I removed the section about management. Cheers Melcous (talk) 04:11, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Melcous, Thanks for getting back to me on this and helping improve the article! Now I have a better understanding on why you removed the management section. Didn't want to argue either - reads good now. Wish you all the best, Conandcon (talk) 08:03, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Melcous, oh, I see, thanks for clarifying that. I didn't indent the conversation properly (I tend to do it badly), so I admit it looks messy! Thanks all for helping with the article!. --Urbanoc (talk) 12:17, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.
Dear all,
I would like to suggest to update the numbers after the annual report for 2019 has been published 23 March. Please note that I have a financial conflict of interest as I am being paid by TRATON SE. Therefore, I will not make any edits myself but hope that uninvolved editors could review my suggestions and make changes if they find them appropriate.
Extended content
Suggested changes to the Introduction section:
Third sentence
1. Please remove the third sentence of the first paragraph of the introduction section:
"In 2018, the Group sold around 233,000 vehicles."
2. Please add the following as the third sentence of the introduction section:
"In 2019, the Group sold around 242,000 vehicles."
3. Using as the reference:
Page 4, Traton Group Annual Report 2019: "Annual Report 2019"(PDF). Traton Group. 2020-03-23. p. 4. Retrieved 2020-04-10. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)CS1 maint: url-status (link)
4. Reason for change being made:
2019 figures are the most recent
Last sentence
1. Please remove the last sentence of the first paragraph of the introduction section:
"As of December 31, 2018, Traton employed around 81,000 people in its commercial vehicle brands."
2. Please add the following as the third sentence of the introduction section:
"As of December 31, 2019, Traton employed around 83,000 people in its commercial vehicle brands."
3. Using as the reference:
Page 4, Traton Group Annual Report 2019: "Annual Report 2019"(PDF). Traton Group. 2020-03-23. p. 4. Retrieved 2020-04-10. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)CS1 maint: url-status (link)
4. Reason for change being made:
2019 figures are the most recent
Suggested changes to the info box:
Revenue
1. Please remove the current revenue in the info box:
"Revenue Increase €25.927 billion (2018)"
2. Please add the 2019 revenue to the info box:
"Revenue Increase €26.901 billion (2019)"
3. Using as the reference:
Page 4, Traton Group Annual Report 2019: "Annual Report 2019"(PDF). Traton Group. 2020-03-23. p. 4. Retrieved 2020-04-10. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)CS1 maint: url-status (link)
4. Reason for change being made:
2019 figures are the most recent
Operating income
1. Please remove the current operating income in the info box:
"Operating income Increase €1.513 billion (2018)"
2. Please add the 2019 operating income to the info box:
"Operating income Increase €1.884 billion (2019)"
3. Using as the reference:
Page 4, Traton Group Annual Report 2019: "Annual Report 2019"(PDF). Traton Group. 2020-03-23. p. 4. Retrieved 2020-04-10. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)CS1 maint: url-status (link)
4. Reason for change being made:
2019 figures are the most recent
Number of employees
1. Please remove the current number of employees in the info box:
"Number of employees 82,983 (Third-quarter 2019)"
2. Please add number of employees as of December 31, 2019 to the info box:
"Number of employees 83,000 (December 31, 2019)"
3. Using as the reference:
Page 4, Traton Group Annual Report 2019: "Annual Report 2019"(PDF). Traton Group. 2020-03-23. p. 4. Retrieved 2020-04-10. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)CS1 maint: url-status (link)
4. Reason for change being made:
2019 figures are the most recent
Suggested changes to the Brands section:
MAN Truck & Bus third sentence
1. Please remove the third sentence of the MAN Truck & Bus subsection:
"In 2018, MAN sold 102,556 vehicles, including 95,352 trucks and 7,204 buses."
2. Please add the following as the third sentence of the MAN Truck & Bus subsection:
"In 2019, MAN sold 104,887 vehicles, including 97,524 trucks and 7,363 buses."
3. Using as the reference:
Page 97, Traton Group Annual Report 2019: "Annual Report 2019"(PDF). Traton Group. 2020-03-23. p. 97. Retrieved 2020-04-10. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)CS1 maint: url-status (link)
4. Reason for change being made:
2019 figures are the most recent
MAN Truck & Bus last sentence
1. Please remove the last sentence of the MAN Truck & Bus subsection:
"In 2018, sales revenue of the MAN Truck & Bus operating unit was 10.8 billion euros."
2. Please add the following as the last sentence of the MAN Truck & Bus subsection:
"In 2019, sales revenue of the MAN Truck & Bus operating unit was 11.088 billion euros."
3. Using as the reference:
Page 97, Traton Group Annual Report 2019: "Annual Report 2019"(PDF). Traton Group. 2020-03-23. p. 97. Retrieved 2020-04-10. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)CS1 maint: url-status (link)
4. Reason for change being made:
2019 figures are the most recent
Scania last sentence
1. Please remove the last sentence of the Scania subsection:
"In 2018, sales revenue of the MAN Truck & Bus operating unit was 10.8 billion euros."
2. Please add the following as the last sentence of the Scania subsection:
"In 2019, the brand sold 99,457 vehicles – 91,680 trucks and 7,777 buses."
3. Using as the reference:
Page 96, Traton Group Annual Report 2019: "Annual Report 2019"(PDF). Traton Group. 2020-03-23. p. 96. Retrieved 2020-04-10. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)CS1 maint: url-status (link)
4. Reason for change being made:
2019 figures are the most recent
Volkswagen Caminhões e Ônibus last sentence
1. Please remove the last sentence of the Volkswagen Caminhões e Ônibus subsection:
"In 2018, MAN Latin America sold a total of 36,362 vehicles."
2. Please add the following as the last sentence of the Scania subsection:
"In 2018, MAN Latin America sold a total of 41,891 vehicles."
3. Using as the reference:
Page 98, Traton Group Annual Report 2019: "Annual Report 2019"(PDF). Traton Group. 2020-03-23. p. 98. Retrieved 2020-04-10. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)CS1 maint: url-status (link)
4. Reason for change being made:
2019 figures are the most recent
@Urbanoc: Would you be willing to review my suggestions again? They are really just an update of current figures. Looking forward to your feedback. Thank you very much in advance!
Done. I also added the net income, assets and equity to the infobox, to make it align with similar articles. Tell me if I made a mistake. Regards. --Urbanoc (talk) 21:40, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Urbanoc, great, thank you! Net income, assets and equity look correct to me. I double check with my client though. If we misinterpreted something, I will let you know. Otherwise, thanks again for your help! Wish you all the best. Conandcon (talk) 08:47, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.
Dear all,
I would like to suggest to update the numbers after the annual report for 2020 has been published 10 March - just like last year (see above). Please note that I have a financial conflict of interest as I am being paid by TRATON SE. Therefore, I will not make any edits myself but hope that uninvolved editors could review my suggestions and make changes if they find them appropriate.
Extended content
Suggested changes to the Introduction section:
Third sentence
1. Please remove the third sentence of the first paragraph of the introduction section:
"In 2019, the Group sold around 242,000 vehicles."
2. Please add the following as the third sentence of the introduction section:
"In 2020, the Group sold around 190,200 vehicles."
@Urbanoc: Would you be willing to review my suggestions again? They are - just like last year - really just an update of current figures. Looking forward to your feedback. Thank you very much in advance!
@Conandcon: Done. Tell me if I messed up something and/or you have questions. None of your edit suggestions seemed controversial at all, so I tried to implement all of them. The fact you always take the work to neatly present your requests makes things easier, so it took me just a few minutes to complete the edits. Regards. --Urbanoc (talk) 01:24, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
An impartial editor has reviewed the proposed edit(s) and asked the editor with a conflict of interest to go ahead and make the suggested changes.
Dear all,
I would like to suggest to update the numbers as well as smaller other things - see below. Please note that I have a financial conflict of interest as I am being paid by TRATON SE. Therefore, I will not make any edits myself but hope that uninvolved editors could review my suggestions and make changes if they find them appropriate.
Extended content
Suggested changes to the Introduction section:
First sentence
1. Please remove the third sentence of the first paragraph of the introduction section:
"Traton SE, known as the Traton Group (formerly Volkswagen Truck & Bus AG), is a subsidiary of the Volkswagen Group and one of the world's largest commercial vehicle manufacturers, with its MAN, Scania, Navistar, and Volkswagen Caminhões e Ônibus brands."
2. Please add the following as the third sentence of the introduction section:
"Traton SE, known as the Traton Group (formerly Volkswagen Truck & Bus AG), is a subsidiary of the Volkswagen Group and one of the world's largest commercial vehicle manufacturers, with its MAN, Scania, Navistar, and Volkswagen Truck and Bus brands."
3. Using as the reference/Reason for change being made:
See information in history section: "On May 18, 2022, Volkswagen Caminhões e Ônibus announced it was changing its corporate name to Volkswagen Truck and Bus, one of its parent's former names."
Third sentence
1. Please remove the last sentence of the first paragraph of the introduction section:
"In 2020, the group sold around 190,200 vehicles."
2. Please add the following as the third sentence of the introduction section:
2. Please add following subsidiary to the info box:
"Volkswagen Truck and Bus"
3. Using as the reference/Reason for change being made:
See history section last sentence: "On May 18, 2022, Volkswagen Caminhões e Ônibus announced it was changing its corporate name to Volkswagen Truck and Bus, one of its parent's former names."
Suggested changes to the History section:
TuSimple
1. Please add the following sentence to the section talking about TuSimple:
"The respective development agreement between the companies was ended in December 2022."
3. Reason for change being made:
Please add this sentence to the paragraph starting with "In September 2020,..." as the agreement has in the meantime ended.
Corporate strategy
1. Please remove the whole section corporate strategy:
"According to the company, teams of MAN and Scania engineers will jointly develop the core components of the powertrain. The management of the cross-brand project groups will be taken over by one of the two companies. Scania is responsible for large engines with 13-liter capacity, whereas MAN is in charge of smaller units with 5- to 9-liter engines. The breakdown for exhaust systems and gearboxes is similar."
2. Reason for change being made:
We could imagine removing the section on corporate strategy. This section seems very unusual for company articles. And as it currently stands, it would also require a complete makeover. Information on the strategy (TRATON Way Forward) can be found on Traton's website: https://traton.com/de/unternehmen/strategie.html
Suggested changes to the Brands section:
Scania third sentence
1. Please remove the third sentence of the Scania subsection:
"In 2020, the brand sold 72,085 vehicles – 66,899 trucks and 5,186 buses."
2. Please add the following as the third sentence of the Scania subsection:
"In 2023, the brand sold 96,727 vehicles – 91,652 trucks and 5,075 buses."
1. Please remove the following sentences of the MAN Truck & Bus subsection:
"In 2020, MAN sold 81,673 vehicles, including 76,333 trucks and 5,340 buses. In 2020, sales revenue of the MAN Truck & Bus operating unit was 9.659 billion euros."
2. Please add the following as the sentences of the MAN Truck & Bus subsection:
"In 2023, MAN sold 116,033 vehicles, including 83,703 trucks, 5,703 buses and 26,627 crafters. In 2023, sales revenue of the MAN Truck & Bus operating unit was 14.8 billion euros."
I am very much looking forward for your help with this. Please do not hesitate to reach out in case of any questions. Looking forward to your feedback. Thank you very much in advance! Conandcon (talk) 15:23, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I also added the net income, assets and equity to the infobox, to make it align with similar articles. Tell me if I made a mistake. Regards. --Urbanoc (talk) 21:40, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Go ahead: I have reviewed these proposed changes and suggest that you go ahead and make the proposed changes to the page. Rusalkii (talk) 17:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
