User talk:DGG/Archive 0.22

this page is an archive of talk worth keeping around about New Page Patrol and Articles for Creation                                        ARCHIVES

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            DO NOT ENTER NEW ITEMS HERE--use User talk:DGG

May I have your input, please? New users and starting articles

It appears that a couple users are trying to implement the restriction of new articles to autoconfirmed users from the recent RfC (please refer to this bugzilla thread). I'm not certain that everything is in place to start that restriction. The closing admin specifically mentioned a few conditions. <block quote>the discussion also showed consensus for making (unspecified) improvements to the Article Wizard and giving more attention to the Articles for Creation process.</block quote> and

Almost everyone who commented on it seems to think that the Article Wizard can and should be improved. There were also repeated concerns about making sure that the Articles for Creation process gets more attention so it does not become clogged and proposed articles get the improvements they need. Participants on both sides of the discussion agreed on these points.

As you wrote the key dissenting view, would you mind looking in to this situation and then providing your input to this conversation with the WMF staff? Thank you for your consideration. Cogitating (talk) 07:51, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I see your comment there and I agree with you, and will say as much, but I am also going to say that I do not think the WMF can or should prevent the community from doing something like this. I've consistently opposed their interference in our content beyond the minimum legal necessities, and I've opposed some of the policies resulting from it, such as the excessively stringent NFCC restrictions beyond the requirements of copyright law, and the adoption of a BLP policy that permits use to suppress unfavorable but well-sourced articles on significant subjects, and is potentially destructive of NPOV. I saw their attempt last year to impose a policy of restricting sexual images, which was only reduced to some degree of reason by a change in board membership. I see their willingness to encourage a mechanism within Wikipedia to facilitate outside censorship; again, the only thing which has kept this from being not just encouraged but required, was a change in board membership. This will be a recurrent issue. I oppose using them as a court of final appeal for issues within Wikipedia, and shall continue to do so. This far outweighs almost any individual issue. Even though we may decide wrong, at least letting the WP community decide gives freedom of action to the individual Wikipedias to have divergent policies, and thus allows experiment even in sensitive areas, which is the only way to prevent stagnation. IMO, this applies both to the board and to the programmers. I opposed the introduction by the programmers of a crude and unscientific system of article rating, and their willingness to expand it, without each time getting explicit consent of the community. It has nonetheless apparently been accepted by the community, and I am not sure it is worth the effort to involve myself in its improvement. I opposed their attempt to introduce a deficient version of vector as the default, similarly--at least then, so did much of the community, and we were at least able to get it improved significantly.

Yes, I consider the introduction of this feature a potential disaster. I expect to see the number of incoming editors fall precipitously even below its present unsatisfactory level, as soon as it is implemented, and possibly not recover even after the trial has stopped. The attraction of being able to make an article is one of the primary motivating factors for editing. It is however possible that I have misjudged, and the proven discouraging effect of the extremely negative comments that new editors encounter is even worse, and the decrease in this might counterbalance the negative effects of not being able to immediately start an article. The only effective thing I can do in this case is to try to persuade people to diminish the length of the trial, and try to find ways of working with new editors despite the constraints, and, perhaps, try to keep fewer promising articles from being rejected via the article creation process--at present, too many of the few people working there insist on a good quality, rather than just an acceptable article.

Sometimes a cause is lost. I opposed the use of BLP Prod, but it was adopted, and my experiences at prod patrol indicate it has had at most a trivial beneficial effect, as everything it properly deletes would and would have been deleted anyway. and a considerable negative one, as it leads to many deletions of articles on people who could have been sourced had anyone experienced here had the time & incentive to do it under a deadline--and it has not noticeably decreased the number of incoming unsourced BLP articles. I've given up on getting rid of it, even though it takes a good deal of my time to prevent whatever percentage of inappropriate deletions I manage, and thus has decreased my participation in other things, such as just this sort of policy discussion.

Sometimes opposition can be effective, as with patrolled changes. I certainly opposed it, and when it became clear it would be adopted supported those who successfully limited it to a trial and to a limited range of articles. The community , upon seeing among other things that those using it did not limit the trial to the intended purpose, ended up by rejecting it, at least in its present form. (The community asked the developers to improve it for another trial, and the developers, not unreasonably, were unwilling to do the amount of work involved if it was going to be to be rejected in the end, as they I think correctly foresaw it would be.) DGG ( talk ) 18:14, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

2012

New role: Assistant NewPagePatroller

Hi DGG,
As a follow-up on my remarks I made about DFA: would it be a good idea if new NPPs would first become an 'assistant NPP' where he rates an article and if he thinks it is indeed a candidate for SpeedyDeletion that he uses a hidden version of the template Speedy Deletion Request.

What I envision is that in stead of placing the 'real' Speedy Deletion template on the page with all the consequences (a message on the Talk page of the contributer, a huge text at the top of the nominated article etc) it would just be visable to more experienced NPPers: they would then check if the assistant NPP / NPP in training has indeed spotted the correct articles for SD and if he uses the correct reasons for deletion. If not the experienced patroller explains to the assistant patroller what went wrong; give him feedback how to correctly recognize SD candidates etc. Once the aNPP reaches a consistant quality and a low rate of incorrect nominations he can then be promoted to a real patroller: in this way new NPP's can learn the job in a correct manner and safely make the errors evey new starting NPPer will make. Only if people who write the articles would specifically look for the hidden SD template would know that a NPP in training has analysed the page: when you are not looking for the hidden SD template you never know that it was considered as a SD candidate.

And you can extend this system to other markings as well: not only SD candidates but also the other ratings/tagging used by the NPPers could get a hidden version of them. Although this might seem as a lot of extra work for the mentor of the NPP in training; it does provide us (the entire Wikipedia community) a great service: well trained NPPers so that the amount of crap finding its way to the Encyclopedia while we prevent damages due to over-active (or the opposite: far to easy) NPPers that still need to find their way in analysing new articles in a corect and consistent way. It does ask a bit from the experienced NPPers as they will have to take a potential NPPer under his wings and be his mentor during his (or her) training period. But I do think that the pay-out is worth it: Wiki does need a fresh supply of volunteers who do some of the more unthankful jobs - but when you setup a good training and monitor/buddy program you will be rewarded by getting good NPPers on board. (And such a program where a NPP gets a good training and support at the start of his career might endorse people to volunteer for the job: I can imagine that some people are put off of being a NPP because they are afraid that they would make errors and then get blamed for it).

At the same time it might also put people off volunteering for the role: I have people in mind that don't want any monitoring from an experienced user because they know of themselves that their opinion is right in the first place - and that their rating if an aricle is Wiki-worthy or not is rule. (Those are the same people that want to be Wiki moderator as it gives them some extra "power buttons", not because they are really interested in improving Wiki according to the reached consencus on what is a good article but rated to their own view on whats good and what isnt. And imho: if such a buddy/training program for new NPPers would put of this catagory of people from even applying for the job it is another win !!

I hope I made my idea/proposal clear enough for you to understand: if not, I'd be happy to work it out in detail and then send it to you. But such a worked-out explination of the process would come in the form of a Word/OpenOffice document with embedded flow-charts. But if you would like to receive such a worked out process just let me know.

Hope to hear from you, Tonkie (talk) 21:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

There have been considerable discussions about how to do this, and , like your suggestion , most of the suggestions have been in the direction of requiring some qualification for NPP. Ideally, this would be without adding any additional bureaucracy to the already over-bureaucratic system. It is not just Prod: I think experience is showing that improper Prod and especially AfD templates are at least as much harm as speedy to the people who receive them. Not necessarily for over-deleting articles--in principle admins are supposed to be careful in what they speedy, check carefully all expired prods, and come to correct conclusions at AfD. Admins do not necessarily do any of these very well==the error rate is at least 5% and probably more like 10-15% in each direction for each process (5% might be the best we can do on average, 15% is much too high) And I am equally concerned about things that do not get caught by the inexperienced, especially copyvio.

We do not necessarily need a hidden speedy template nor would I advocate one: first, many improperly tagged articles get untagged by people simply noticing them--the cultural change to always check the edit page would not be easy, especially to newcomers (most inexperienced readers are not even aware there is a talk p.) Second, there are many grossly inappropriate articles and we need to be sure to catch them and not miss the notices. .

Most of the discussions are about having the equivalent of a special user right for marking Patrolled. For examp[le, a fairly restrictive condition might be Auto[patrolled status; a less restrictive one, 3 months and 1000 edits. Expdrience has shown that at the very least a full month and several hundred edits is necessary.

we already do have a way of dealing with people who do not want to be monitored: we monitor them. This is an open wiki, and people who edit inappropriately, whether at NPP or anywhere else, attract attention. When I do NPP, it is primarily to check on the work of other new page patrollers, as well as people with auto-confirmed who use that privilege improperly. When I became an administrator, it was for the stated primary reason of looking for deleted articles that could be rescued. We also already have a mentoring system, WP:MENTOR --anyone who wants can ask, and people do ask; I just added a mention there about the possibility.

As Wikipedia gets larger, change gets more difficult -- but also more necessary. DGG ( talk ) 04:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe just to clarify my suggestions - in regards to the 'hidden' speedy-deltion' template: I used this term as I envisioned something similar as the 'hidden catagories': not anything to be done in secrecy and/or to avoid ir being visable; but as a means to 'tag' them by the aNPPer: he/she would tag an article of which he thinks it should be deleted by adding the 'hidden' template: and maybe you could use the existing technique of hidden catagory: just as a technical means of the mentor/buddy or (other) fully qualified DGG's to find the marked/tagged potential SD requests by sorting on this hidden catagory. So it was meant as using existing Wiki technology without having any direct visable impact on the page in question. But as often, there are more ways to Rome: the aDGG could also just keep record of the pages he checked and the articles he thinks should be tagged for SD or 'normal' deletion etc. This could be done on a special page. But using the existing technique of hidden catagory is imho a nice technical way of doing it which is relative easy to implement such a scheme without adding burocracy or demanding new processes/technology in the background.

Just as an afterthought you mention another important issue: people who don't want to be monitoe. I see often that there are people who claim/think that because WP is an open encyclopedia that also means that there are no rules (or to be more precise: there are no rules for them, while there are loads of rules for others (namely the rules these kind of people set out for the others). Out friend DGA -maybe with the best intentions- has some of the 'properties' of such a person: his rule is law and other rules do not apply to him. Witch such a wide userbase you will always have those people. They shout murder when you limit them (eg block etc) and claim that you are limiting their freedom of speech, but when give the chance they will block anyone who doesn't think the way he/she does (in the country I left we have a politician working that way: he claims that freedom of speech is limitless and that he is entitled to say anything he likes about other people and entire [foreign] communities - but when someone else tries to make a (very valid) comparisson between him and some guy from Austria who ruled Germany from 1932 onwards he runs to the judge to have such thoughts banned. And when he was proscuted he told (as member of parlement) that he didn't believe nor respect the law-system anymore if he wouldn't be aquited. And at the same time he calls the Islamic communities inferior to our society because our (western) society has such an independent and reliable rule of law. (And again: he want to end that independance of the judges by firing judge after 5 years if he doesn't hand out strict punishments; but those strict punishments should only be handed out to what he sees as crimes (and preferably give far stronger punishments to people from a Muslim background).... (If you can't follow it anymore - not your fault: I can't either)....

Anyway: I do fully understand that we do need NPPs, but we also need to make sure NPPs work according to a high standard: preventing good articles to be marked as SD candidates and at the same time preventing bad articles to be passed as checked. Even when an article 'only' being marked for SD (or even slow/normal deletion) is really very de-motivating and newcomers who find their very 1st article to be marked for deletion is a near guarentee to never see another article from that author again: even if the article never got deleted. I do think that we do need a quality control on NPPs : or a requirement in the sense of that a potential NPP has to have experience in writing (new) article himself or by being assistant NPPer first.

I'd be more then prepared to think along with you (as a group: not you as a person) how to build in checks and guarentees, but I don't have the time to become a NPPer myself: but I would be happy to help out in Q-control. I'm already a mentor on request" and was asked once to help a new author to find his way on Wiki - but there is not much demand for a voluntary mentor. I would however be prepared to be a mentor/help for a potential NPP.

But I think my best assistance I can offer is helping to work out a quality assurance protocol for NPPs or similar roles without adding extra burocracy to Wiki. If you want to change ideas/thought with you and/or a group of people that think about quality assurance for Wiki just contact me directly using email. Tonkie (talk) 07:25, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Not sure where I referred to me being a coach/mentor thinking that I was role/job as mentor/coach. But I do this on the Dutch Coaching program. Tonkie (talk) 20:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

New Page Triage engagement strategy released

Hey guys!

I'm dropping you a note because you filled out the New Page Patrol survey, and indicated you'd be interested in being contacted about follow-up work. This is to notify you that we've finally released both the initial documentation about the project and also the engagement strategy, which sets out how we plan to work with the community on this. Please give both a read, and leave any comments or suggestions you have on the talkpage, on my talkpage, or in my inbox - okeyeswikimedia.org.

It's awesome to finally get to start work on this! :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 02:35, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Page Triage newsletter

Hey guys!

Thanks to all of you who have commented on the New Page Triage talkpage. If you haven't had a chance yet, check it out; we're discussing some pretty interesting ideas, both from the Foundation and the community, and moving towards implementing quite a few of them :).

In addition, on Tuesday 13th March, we're holding an office hours session in #wikimedia-office on IRC at 19:00 UTC (11am Pacific time). If you can make it, please do; we'll have a lot of stuff to show you and talk about, including (hopefully) a timetable of when we're planning to do what. If you can't come, for whatever reason, let me know on my talkpage and I'm happy to send you the logs so you can get an idea of what happened :). Regards, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:30, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who attended our first office hours session; the logs can be found here, if you missed it, and we should be holding a second one on Thursday, 22 March 2012 at 18:00 UTC in #wikimedia-office. I hope to see you all there :).

In the meantime, I have greatly expanded the details available at Wikipedia:New Page Triage: there's a lot more info about precisely what we're planning. If you have ideas, and they aren't listed there, bring them up and I'll pass them on to the developers for consideration in the second sprint. And if you know anyone who might be interested in contributing, send them there too!

Regards, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:17, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

help triage some feedback

Hey guys.

I appreciate this isn't quite what you signed up for, but I figured as people who are already pretty good at evaluating whether material is useful or not useful through Special:NewPages, you might be interested :). Over the last few months we've been developing the new Article Feedback Tool, which features a free text box. it is imperative that we work out in advance what proportion of feedback is useful or not so we can adjust the design accordingly and not overwhelm you with nonsense.

This is being done through the Feedback Evaluation System (FES), a tool that lets editors run through a stream of comments, selecting their value and viability, so we know what type of design should be promoted or avoided. We're about to start a new round of evaluations, beginning with an office hours session tomorrow at 18:00 UTC. If you'd like to help preemptively kill poor feedback, come along to #wikimedia-office and we'll show you how to use the tool. If you can't make it, send me an email at okeyeswikimedia.org or drop a note on my talkpage, and I'm happy to give you a quick walkthrough in a one-on-one session :).

All the best, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I am willing to do at least one batch, and I think I understand how to do it from the wikipage. But perhaps I need to know something that isn't obvious, so I am emailing you. I wish you hadn't tried to summarize things using graphics, but that doesn't affect the ability to do the rating, which works via checkboxes. DGG ( talk ) 21:53, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

A big NPT update

Hey! Big update on what the developers have been working on, and what is coming up:

coding

• Fixes for the "moved pages do not show up in Special:NewPages" and "pages created from redirects do not show up in Special:NewPages" bugs have been completed and signed off on. Unfortunately we won't be able to integrate them into the existing version, but they will be worked into the Page Triage interface.
• Coding has been completed on three elements; the API for displaying metadata about the article in the "list view", the ability to keep the "patrol" button visible if you edit an article before patrolling it, and the automatic removal of deleted pages from the queue. All three are awaiting testing but otherwise complete.

All other elements are either undergoing research, or about to have development started. I appreciate this sounds like we've not got through much work, and truthfully we're a bit disappointed with it as well; we thought we'd be going at a faster pace :(. Unfortunately there seems to be some 24-72 hour bug sweeping the San Francisco office at the moment, and at one time or another we've had several devs out of it. It's kind of messed with workflow.

Stuff to look at

We've got a pair of new mockups to comment on that deal with the filtering mechanism; this is a slightly updated mockup of the list view, and this is what the filtering tab is going to look like. All thoughts, comments and suggestions welcome on the NPT talkpage :). I'd also like to thank the people who came to our last two office hours sessions; the logs will be shortly available here.

I've also just heard that the first functional prototype for enwiki will be deployed mid-April! Really, really stoked to see this happening :). We're finding out if we can stick something up a bit sooner on prototype.wiki or something.

I appreciate there may be questions or suggestions where I've said "I'll find out and get back to you" and then, uh. not ;p. I sincerely apologise for that: things have been a bit hectic at this end over the last few weeks. But if you've got anything I've missed, drop me a line and I'll deal with it! Further questions or issues to the usual address. Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

New Page Triage/New Pages Feed

Hey all :). A notification that the prototype for the New Pages Feed is now live on enwiki! We had to briefly take it down after an unfortunate bug started showing up, but it's now live and we will continue developing it on-site.

The page can be found at Special:NewPagesFeed. Please, please, please test it and tell us what you think! Note that as a prototype it will inevitably have bugs - if you find one not already mentioned at the talkpage, bring it up and I'm happy to carry it through to the devs. The same is true of any additions you can think of to the software, or any questions you might have - let me know and I'll respond.

Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:12, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

very nice for general purposes, and will certainly improve accuracy if inexperienced users get this by default. For quickly scanning to pick up problems, I find it unusable. The old format works very well for me when I use it for that purpose, & I hope we can figure out how to maintain both. DGG ( talk ) 21:12, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Page Triage newsletter

Hey all. Some quick but important updates on what we've been up to and what's coming up next :).

The curation toolbar, our Wikimedia-supported twinkle replacement. We're going to be deploying it, along with a pile of bugfixes, to wikipedia on 9 August. After a few days to check it doesn't make anything explode or die, we'll be sticking up a big notice and sending out an additional newsletter inviting people to test it out and give us feedback :). This will be followed by two office hours sessions - one on Tuesday the 14th of August at 19:00 UTC for all us Europeans, and one on Wednesday the 15th at 23:00 UTC for the East Coasters out there :). As always, these will be held in #wikimedia-office; drop me a note if you want to know how to easily get on IRC, or if you aren't able to attend but would like the logs.

I hope to see a lot of you there; it's going to be a big day for everyone involved, I think :). I'll have more notes after the deployment! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 19:52, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

New Pages newsletter

Hey all :)

A couple of new things.

First, you'll note that all the project titles have now changed to the Page Curation prefix, rather than having the New Pages Feed prefix. This is because the overarching project name has changed to Page Curation; the feed is still known as New Pages Feed, and the Curation Toolbar is still the Curation Toolbar. Hopefully this will be the last namechange ;p.

On the subject of the Curation Toolbar (nice segue, Oliver!) - it's now deployed on Wikipedia. Just open up any article in the New Pages Feed and it should appear on the right. It's still a beta version - bugs are expected - and we've got a lot more work to do. But if you see something going wrong, or a feature missing, drop me a note or post on the project talkpage and I'll be happy to help :). We'll be holding two office hours sessions to discuss the tool and improvements to it; the first is at 19:00 UTC on 14 August, and the second at 23:00 on the 15th. Both will be in #wikimedia-office as always. Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:01, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

works, sort of. Long lag before it updates, and it managed to crash Safari DGG ( talk ) 02:14, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Special: new pages

Hi David. I agree that the new feed still has a long way to go before it is perfect. I haven't seen CorenSearchBot very active lately - is it still running? I'm rather concerned that some users are developing a tutorial for it, especially as they have only recently discovered it and thier own patrolling may need some improvement. Do continue to post on Wikipedia talk:Page Curation as I'm not entirely confident that all the issues and/or user requests for features will be addressed; there is quite a long list now, and the devs' priorities may not match those of the patrollers. Your feedback especially, is extremely important. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:19, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

In my experience, developing a set of instructions for doing something is an excellent way of learning how to use it. The problem, and not just here, with help and tutorial and allied pages, is nobody ever bothers to change them. I'll be there--my concern is complementary to yours--they will spend their efforts on useless features. DGG ( talk ) 03:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, broadly construed, when the Foundation takes the initiative to develop something, while they are practically obliged to request feedback from the community, they are often are only paying lip service to the comments. Wikimania 2012 was my first one, and I was a little concerned with the emphasis on, and awards for, their work. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Considering the perfectly justifiable things people had been saying about them over the previous year, possibly they needed some encouragement--that was certainly in my mind when I talked to them or about them. The test will be whether they do better this year, which means not only doing more positive work but avoiding the actually harmful. Another test, in a different way, will be whether the developing semi-independent and allied programs trying to escape their bureaucratization merely copy it; this is the aspect that really has me worried. There's a tendency to think one is engaging in revolutionary overthrow of bureaucracy, when all that happens is an attempt to find better bureaucrats. As a very current example, I want to see if we actually remove all the apparatus at the Counter-Vandalism Unit. Then we can proceed to all similar.

We are destroying our own most important achievement: WP showed it was possible to do the highest level of work with minimal overhead. But the very people who have accomplished this are apparently so contaminated by the general world, that the only way they can think of making further improvements is to increase the administrative layers. We have a central admin that achieves too little; the response is to develop a chapters organization to supplement it. We have an education program that produces more apparatus than product; we replace it by a independent group working in the same fashion. We can't get people to instruct users, so the few of us who do instruct set up projects to recruit people at the cost of even what we have been doing. When we can't finish a job, we discuss how to divide it into multiple jobs that we equally will be unable to finish. And I sit here complaining about this, while I have actual users waiting for me to attend to them. DGG ( talk ) 04:10, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Message left in your future archive re: AfC

Visiting your talk page just now and admiring the layout of your archive list, I was surprised to see that the archive for August 2013 had become a bluelink. That is because Ariiise (talk) has left a message there asking how to get at his declined AfC submission to edit it. I have answered him on his talk page (copyvio so can't restore, will email if required) and thought about restoring the pattern by deleting your Aug 13 archive, but will leave you to do that if you choose.

It's a defect of the AfC system that where a submission is rejected, tagged as copyvio and deleted, the submitter is given the standard template that says "If you would like to continue working on the submission, you can find it at <redlink>." Also, if the AfC template is the first item on a new talk page, it should be preceded by {{welcome}} or some similar welcome message. I will suggest that, if I can find the right place.

My reason for visiting your archive was to look again at this, as I am drafting an AfD for that article. I will write about that separately. Regards, JohnCD (talk) 09:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

It is indeed a defect, one that shows the hasty and inadequate programming of the system. Once I realized it, I have been manually changing the notice on the user talk pages I deal with to eliminate that nonsensical advice, and to say directly why the article was unacceptable. I have earlier today left a long comment dealing with this and other defects in the AfC system at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation. The responses, as best I can make out, seem to indicate the maintainers are aware of the problem and intend to fix it. I;m not so sure they are aware of the importance other problems. DGG ( talk ) 09:40, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Page Curation update

Hey all :). We've just deployed another set of features for Page Curation. They include flyouts from the icons in Special:NewPagesFeed, showing who reviewed an article and when, a listing of this in the "info" flyout, and a general re-jigging of the info flyout - we've also fixed the weird bug with page_titles_having_underscores_instead_of_spaces in messages sent to talkpages, and introduced CSD logging! As always, these features will need some work - but any feedback would be most welcome.==

the early CSD logging was interesting, because of the high proportion of errors, a much higher proportion that I normally spot at NPP. This may be just my impression, because it put all of them in one place. If so, it will be very useful in following up the errors to teach the patrollers. The key need is not necessarily to make patrol easier, but to make finding errors at patrol easier, because new patrollers generally need educating. Do you think it would be possibleto get a list of those who patrol for the first time? DGG ( talk ) 23:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

We did this a couple of years ago (and repeatedly monitored it ever since) and at that time it clearly demonstrated that a vast amount of new page patrolling is being carried out by very young and/or very new, inexperienced users. Although this appears to still be very much the case, the Foundation appears to have ruled this out as a possible cause for low quality patrolling. Special:NewPagesFeed is an excellent piece of software but it's not going to be a silver bullet. That said, this tool may help. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:07, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

remind me, where did the WMF publish the analysis of NPP you refer to? Perhaps they mean that a great deal of bad patrolling is done by more experienced people also--which is certainly true. But i've found it easier to teach the new people, who are usually very glad to learn. DGG ( talk ) 19:34, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Apologies for the late reply. I can't remember where the report was published. The survey was launched as a community project but Foundation adopted it and published the report. If I remember rightly (maybe wrongly), it appeared that the majority of patrollers were in their 40s, had PhDs, and had been on Wiki for at least 6 years - or something vaguely to that effect. Oliver can give you a link to the report because I believe he wrote it himself. Perhaps the responses were inaccurate, because those of us who had done over a year of research found that like all other maintenance areas, NPP was a magnet to new and/or younger users. It seems to have improved lately, but I'm only working from the prototype and not from the old yellow highlighted page. I assume those who are working from the beta are more clued up with page patrolling. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:48, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Discussion about copyvio detection at WikiProject articles for creation (on my talk page)

Hi DGG. I'm interested in obtaining your input at a discussion occurring at my talk page at: Advice on recently edited article: Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Christopher J. Howell. Please respond at your convenience, and thank you for your consideration. Northamerica1000^(talk) 14:51, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

=Continued:AfC copyvio detection relative to adminship consideration

After consideration, contributors to WikiProject Articles for creation should have fair warning about copyvio detection relative to consideration for adminship, so I've posted a comment there regarding this matter. If you're interested in providing any opinion regarding this matter, please feel free at any time to comment at my talk page, or at the above-linked discussion. Should the AfC process be started over from scratch, as you suggested on my talk page? Northamerica1000^(talk) 17:14, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

well, not exactly from scratch. We can use the knowledge we've gained. The principal information is that all new articles coming into WP ,. whether directly submitted, submitted thru an afc process, or through move of userspace pages to mainspace, must flow through one common process. 6 months ago I would have hesitated to suggest NP, but the excellent work done of developing WP:NPP and the page curation process makes this a practical suggestion. I was just as dubious about NPP at first as I was about AfC, and all I can say is that skepticism shouldn't discourage experiment, because some will work out. Our editing environment is unique, so we have little precedents. (Someone is very likely to say there is no way to get the moves or the afc moves into NPP, but they just mean they haven't done it. or haven't figured out how. Programmers are not magicians, but they should be up to this.) DGG ( talk ) 00:05, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

2013

Re: unsourced BLPs at AfC

I see, I was looking for something like this. I'll better write the custom message from now that "This article of a living person needs addition citations..." What do you suggest? --Tito Dutta (talk) 03:51, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the AfC system is very crudely set up for its important role, and we need to be aware of the limitations I almost always use custom message. The prebuilt ones are much too general--even the reasons for non-notability confuse the lack of adequate sources, for which the right advice is to find some, with the extreme unliklhood of there being any such sources, for which the best advice is to stop trying. . I wish they were editable, but they aren't unless you go to the actual page and change it afterwards. The way it is set up, once someone uses the BLP reason, I can't figure out how to remove the speedy without reverting the entire edit. DGG ( talk ) 04:03, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

That's helpful, when I first started AFC reviewing (most probably yesterday or the day before.. not a lot experience), I prepared this and saved in my draft box

Thanks for submitting this article to WP:AFC, but I don't think it is ready now. The concerns are mentioned below:

After solving these issue, you can re-submit the article. If you are facing trouble to find sources for your article, this might be helpful:

{{Find sources|{{subst:SUBPAGENAME}}}}

If you have question or comment or if you need help, you can ask here, or ping (contact) me at my talk page. That's all for now. Good wishes.

Almost in no time I found those "Thanks for the submission.. you can re-submit" these are already covered in the preset templates. I'll try to add few more drafts in my "Wikimpedia draft folder" --Tito Dutta (talk) 04:46, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

You seem to understand what is needed. Myself, I have some standard text that I keep as TextExpander macros and edit to fit the circumstances. If the editor is clearly trying in good faith, I try to say something that pertains to the specific article in question: New users complain about our form notices. No matter how polite the wording, everyone recognizes boiler-plate when they see it, and everyone objects when they are on the receiving end of it. We usually manage to give submissions an unusual degree of individual attention for such a large project, and we ought to show it. Messages are taken in a much better spirit and are much more likely to lead to either improvement or withdrawal if they show this specific attention. Most people here will explain in detail if asked; it is better to explain beforehand, but it takes so much more work that is not always rewarded, that some degree of formulaic presentation does encourage doing it. DGG ( talk ) 15:22, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Excellent points! A user sent me 5 emails today (part of conversation) though I asked to post at my talk page. My initial experience in AFC has been a fairly happy one. But, I feel I may face another trouble in future for the following reason: (please give your suggestions if possible)

At least in 2 articles of my 7-8 reviews, I copyedited in those article (adding citations, removing below standard references, adding citations as inline, rewrite/wording etc) to make the article ready. An example will be good idea I think, please check this.

I generally add "reviewing" /"on hold" tag and add a comment "This review will take time, I am copyediting this article" which you can see in the above example too.

You have told: Messages are taken in a much better spirit and are much more likely to lead to either improvement or withdrawal if they show this specific attention.. Questions are 1) as a reviewer can I make necessary changes in a submission? 2) (little bit complicated) if I make changes in a submission, can I review the article still (a) I can not, since I am reviewing my own edits b)Obviously I can, before starting editing, I added the template "reviewing", so, my those edits were part of the review and I can't leave the article now! --Tito Dutta (talk) 20:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Another example related to the two questions I have asked above, here I needed to rewrite/copyedit the whole article, restructure, add JSTOR etc citations to prepare the article! --Tito Dutta (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Reviewing is no different from editing; the reviewer has no special authority or limitations beyond what any editor has. Think of it as simply help being given to an inexperienced editor. Nobody owns an article at any stage of its existence. Before we used AfC, and still continuing as an alternative, articles can be developed in user space; in order to avoid unnecessary conflicts, it is the practice that one editor doesn't nterfere with what someone else chooses to do in their own user space unless one is asked, or there is good reason--but nonetheless, even user space isn't actually private. The point of AfC is that by contrast it is explicitly public. Anyone may edit an AfC article; anyone may approve it or decline it. Any editor can ignore a lack of approval and move their article to main space, if they are autoconfirmed, a very minimal bar.

When I accept on an AfC article, I often improve it, wither while still at AfC , or after I have accepted it. I will do this if the:re's something I can fix better than I can explain how to fix it, or if it's something obvious and easy, or if it's meant as an indication of where further improvement is desirable, though not required. When I decline to accept one, I often improve it also, as a guide to the editor, or just in order to make it readable. None of this is a conflict of interest. any number of people can work on any article.

Where conflict of interest can come in is only when someone acts as an administrator, or if someone makes a NAC at an AfD discussion. But even here, I may very well work on an article, and even approve it, and only then realize it is copyvio--but in such cases I would normally mark it for deletion, and let some other admin delete it. Or if I remove spam from an article, and the editor insists on reinserting it. Again, if extreme I would list it for G11 and let another admin decide, or take it to AfD. analogously, if the new editor objects to my declining an article, I will sometimes say, if you want to go ahead and take your chances, you have a right to do so; I will move it into mainspace for you and then nominate it for AfD. I think nobody has ever taken me up on it.

The only considerations in improving articles is whether it is worth the effort, whether it is better to do it yourself or instruct or ask someone else to do it, and whether what you do is actually an improvement. It is exactly the same for AfC as for anywhere else in WP. No good faith improvement on an article in a situation like this is a conflict of interest. We are here to write decent articles and help others to do so. Remember WP:BRD and the policy on which it is based, WP:IAR; they can be abused , but in this sort of situations, they give a warrant for proceeding. DGG ( talk ) 05:05, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

BTW, I did some further rewriting myself just now on the Invention of Art article. We do not cite JStor, we cite the journal in which the article was published--JStor is just a distributor. PW also is a journal and should be cited with cite journal, not cite web. and the article contained an excessive amount of copypaste from the publishers web page. DGG ( talk ) 06:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Talking on the JSTOR point.. asking about citing JSOTR.. I generally download, read and in the web click on "view citation" and copy paste information from there! For example this article Can you tell me, how can I get the exact URL of the journal article? About named ref, I often forget/can not understand the short ref names like "Chicago1218" "TOI2012" etc :-( that's why I sometimes write the full title as ref name, so that I can easily pick it from "named ref" list!

Can you please review your "delete" vote here? I started a fresh copy to at the talk page! Don't know what happened then!--Tito Dutta (talk) 06:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I can understand the JSTOR question now, URL JSTOR, but publisher etc the main journal! --Tito Dutta (talk) 06:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

AfC source tagging

Hi DGG per our last chat I've stated on implementing some (non game based) ideas for improving communication at AfC. I hope that these will be usefull in more rapidly establishing better reviewer norms at AfC. To wit I've developed two new inline warning tags templates tags and will add a few more tomorrow. The point being that these would supplement the existing rejection tags by providing more focused issue detection and better troubleshooting links.

I think the most common issues are

1. sources that are not independent - which we should tag with {{!IN}}
2. sources that are user generated (blogs, wikis) - which we should tag with {{!Blog}}
3. sources that come from Wikipedia - which we should tag with {{!Wiki}}

So far I've tagged used these here BO | Talk 17:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

AfC changes

Hello DGG! I'm surprised you haven't shed any insight into the current discussion about reforming the AfC acceptance process. Here it is, in case you're wondering. Regards, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 23:51, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm there now, but I do not think the existing process is worth reforming--it was badly designed starting with the original idea to do it in WP space, going all the way down to every detail -- we'd do better throwing it out entirely, and redesigning from scratch how to help newcomers make articles, without preconceptions. DGG ( talk ) 21:17, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I think you're right. I Feel inclined to think so more and more as I go... FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 00:20, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

RFC bot (talk) 00:15, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

AFC: unsatisfactory (Dennis Brown)

You wrote that AFC is unsatisfactory. While I completely agree that it doesn't have the manpower to absorb new responsibilities right now, I was wondering what improvements you had in mind that can be fixed without adding manpower and which wouldn't require more than a very short term diversion of existing manpower. Please consider replying at WT:WPAFC. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:30, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

long essay forthcoming in a few hours DGG ( talk ) 17:26, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

There are a great many members at WP:WER who have shown an interest in editor retention but are not attached to any activities. I would consider AFC an "editor retention" priority, since these are new editors just getting started and their experience at AFC will influence whether they stick around or leave, thinking this is too difficult. I would think that a one-time, carefully crafted request for help at AFC sent to all the members on that list would be an acceptable way to draw attention to the need, as they have already indicated a willingness to help. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:37, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I do agree that cumbersome as it is, we also have to deal with what is in there.

I will summarize why it is a problem: What we need is not more people as much as competent people willing to take care with the articles. Looking at the backlog of rejected articles, at least half of them could have been handled better--some by giving a little focussed advice and following it up, but many by being told right out that there was no practical hope for an article, and many by listing for speedy deletion as promotional or copyvio, and thus saving everyone's time. Looking at the backlog of article awaiting review, though about 25% could be rejected outright, only a few can be accepted as is, and we need someway of getting them upgraded without ineffectual back and forth--some of the time, the reviewers should probably do the corrections themselves. The software contributes to ineffectiveness, by guiding people to use vague unhelpful reasons, by not placing the reasons on the users' talk pages, by sending them a notice to look on the talk p. even if the article is being speedy deleted, by not checking for duplication with existing articles or direct moves into mainspace, and by making it very difficult for experienced people to check what newcomers are doing. The worst structural feature of the system is that new pages do not go into a single process: the most effective process we have is NP, and all new pages need to go through there, as soon as they go into mainspace. What is needed is experienced people here to work properly and individually with each article and editor. Regardless of the software, reviewing a page is a commitment to doing a reasonable amount of work helping the editor develop it into an article or to understand why it will never be an article. If it is done is a rush, it doesn't help much. It also takes a few people to guide and check the ones doing it. (I'm doing this checking, and I hope I'm doing it right, but it means I'm doing little else. Teaching people to help others is the slowest of all things to do here, but the most rewarding) DGG ( talk ) 06:24, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

All good points. I have gone over to AFC before, after discussing it with others at WER, to help out. I was absolutely put off by the software there, and gave up to move on to help in other areas. I haven't gone back to help for the same reason. I spent most of my early years here gnoming, taking problem articles or articles at AFD and adding text and sourcing them, and I would rather be able to just fix some of those and send them into main space, or just send them to CSD, but the AFC "process" is confusing enough and honestly, I'm not that interested in learning the "process", just in fixing articles. Should I just boldly stomp on process, fix and push into mainspace those that need it? Can I send an unreviewed article to CSD? This isn't clear, and it shouldn't require a ton of software to do these things. I'm happy to talk directly to the editor, to "adopt" the article for a week, but doing this through the software is a undue burden, enough so to put me off of helping more at something I'm pretty familiar with. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 11:21, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like the way I started there. My suggestions:

1. You can not simply ignore process, because it leaves too many loose ends for others to clean up. The first thing to do is to activate the Yet Another AFC Helper Script, in gadgets. (Trying to do AfC manually is even worse.)

2. Always work by accepting, declining, or commenting, or deleting rather than just moving the page, which doesn't remove headings, redirects, special categories, etc.

3.The key thing is to use a custom decline reason including specifics, completing ignoring their tabs, which do not leave the message you think they will, and do not let you preview it.

4. Always copy your message before proceeding. Sometimes the system won't find a submission token, whatever that is, and your message will be lost. ::::::::5. After accepting/declining/commenting, paste the message also on the user's talk page, to be sure they see it, or go there to change the automatic message.

6. For people, it asks you to fill in the infobox--I do not bother because that's easy for anyone to do later. There's too much to do that's much more important.

7. To me, the priority is to accept the old declined ones that are rescuable, before the foolishly implemented G13 deletes them without thinking if they are rescuable.

8. There is no way of sorting by subject--you have to guess from the titles, or by hovering over the link.

9. If a prior patroller has said something stupid, consider if they are doing it recently & regularly.

10, You can accept an unsubmitted article. You can speedy them. You can comment on them. You can not decline them, but there is usually no point in declining them if the person knows they're not finished. Anyone can submit an article to AfC it, but then it thinks you wrote it and sends the notices to you, which is not helpful--this is another major gap in the system--there is nothing practical & effective to do easily in one step if it is hopeless & the new G13 won't fix it for the new ones.

11. If you find a dup of an existing article, use G6. I don't know if its IAR, but it works. Ditto for empty AfCs not just created.

I find that at WP, its often best to work with the system, but in a streamlined manner. DGG ( talk ) 16:40, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

A note on point 10, you can submit on behalf of someone, but then change the username in the code after submission. I have submitted for someone via a request on IRC, I did not receive any notifications. One extra step, but useful if someone is having trouble submitting.--kelapstick^(bainuu) 16:46, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• I am going to try this, I promise. The fact that you had to spell out every step, and number them, shows how unnecessarily complicated this is. If WP:SPI was this complicated, we would be overrun with sockpuppets. But I will again attempt to spend a little time there. I've copied this over to a subpage in my user space. Thanks again, David. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 17:48, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

←Of a related topic (because I am not sure if I saw a discussion about it elsewhere) is the lack a requirement for someone to be an AfC reviewer. I came across one contributor today, that after his sixth total edit, added the AfC Helper script, and proceeded to start reviewing articles. A total of 69 before he stopped. His declines were along the lines of "This submission is not suitable for Wikipedia. Please read 'What Wikipedia is not' for more information." (one of the canned responses available from the decline template) Even going so far as to blank and nominate for CSD (for an unspecified reason) at least nine articles. One declined article was the book The Rainbow Stories (note that I take special interest in patrolling books based on a comment on my talk page by DGG about 4+ years ago when I hastily PRODded one). The article was short, yes. Well referenced, yes. Even reviewed by the NYT. Declined for what? "Subject appears to be non-notable". So, revert it is, tag the target for CSD (a redirect to the author), and move it. Notify the initial contributor that he is in fact not crazy and the article was fine. Now I find myself (and others) checking all 69 of said editors reviews for accuracy. Such is life. AfC is a painful place where I try not to find myself too often, but often it is where they need a lot of people who know about writing articles, and those people would rather be doing just that.--kelapstick^(bainuu) 20:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

AFC query

What's the usual way of dealing with AFC submissions like [Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/The_most_beautiful_girl_in_the_world this one?] Decline and speedy? Or just speedy straight away? Valenciano (talk) 06:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I nominated it as a test page, G2. (I prefer not to do single-handed speedies of afcs at this point until we've clarified the rules). It's just playing around with WP. I see no point in declining first--the contributor knows perfectly well that it won't be acceptable,& it obviously can't be fixed. (I prefer to use test page rather than A7 for entries like this in mainspace also, seems unfair to say something negative about the unfortunate subject by calling them non-Notable DGG ( talk ) 16:56, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

AfC stuff: improvements needed

this response is still under construction. I will finish it in another 24 hours, but I want to check I've got everything & didn't get anything really stupidly wrong. . If there are any obvious errors, please fix them' (moved from earlier)

Hi DGG, in reference to your comment here: Firstly, I'd like to clarify that I feel your position to delete the submissions in question is entirely appropriate -- nothing notable or worth saving about them, why waste time!? Moveover, I feel that the current G11 criteria are fine as they are, perfectly valid in the AfC space, and the judgement about what should or should not be deleted left rightly to admins. Secondly, I picked up on your comment about the reviewing instructions. I have twice re-drafted the instructions (latest version quite recently) and was wondering if you have any advice to make them more decipherable? When the instructions were first created they were designed as a rough technical guide about which templates to use etc. I'm aware they have evolved beyond that now and would like to do what I can to make them more useful to people. Pol430 talk to me 20:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I would be very glad to work with you on improving AfC, though you will find my opinions of what is needed somewhat far-reaching. The instructions themselves are actually pretty good, though of course they can be refined further. The main difficulty is that they do not emphasise the importance of first considering whether the article is likely to ever be acceptable, and to concentrate of major problems first. The real problems with AfC are much more fundamental. See my list, above, in my discussion with Dennis Brown--which cover only a small part of what I see as the problems. This is going to be a long list.

One: I disagree with some of the criteria and practices in use, which do not follow any reasonable guideline:

A. At the extreme,some people are still using what amount to GA as the necessary standard. They reject articles for relatively trivial reasons, such as spelling.

B. The usual current standard is essentially at "not being likely to be challenged at AfD," but this is too high. It should be "likely to pass AfD " No one individual should decide on the acceptability of a borderline notable subject. That's what AfD is for, and the frequently disputed AfDs show the need for community opinion. (I agree that a standard that they need only pass speedy is too low--it ought to be better than that, because there is no point in passing an article that is probably going to be quickly rejected.)

C. The reviewers often reject articles for not having inline citations, not being aware that any form of citation is acceptable, as long as specifics are adequately referenced and identified. Specific facts need to be identified for controversial or challenged material, or especially for BLPs, but general references to sources are fine for most of the routine material.

D. they frequently insist on third party sources for articles that do not need them, such as places, or the other things that are intrinsically notable. There are special standards for sports, and academics, and other things, some specified in WP:N, some only in COMMON, and these all need to be taken into account.

E. They do not regard the two purposes: one is to get decent articles, the other is to get and keep decent editors. A potentially good editor should get ever encouragement, and articles from such people need follow up to make sure they are not abandoned. On the other hand, a COI editor who will be incapable of writing something acceptable needs pretty firm guidance to stay away, and not keep resubmitting the same material.

F. They do not distinguish between problems that could be easily fixed & give us passible articles that could be improved even further later, and those that need major work before acceptance. If it's minor, but the ed. never returns, we lose the article.

G. They do not check adequately for copyvio. I know this is being worked on, but it remains a problem. And when they do reject something for copyvio & it gets deleted, the contributor still gets a notice to see the AfC for the reason, --altho it is not longer there-- and thus gets no assistance.)

Two But it's not just people being careless or not following reasonable guidelines. Part of the problem is the procedures themselves, some of which are unduly difficult.

A. The set reasons are poorly chosen. Some of them are very rare, some common.

B. The commonly used ones are unspecific, and give no directed help

C. They do not permit giving multiple reasons from the list, which would at least make them more specific

D. They do not permit editing before posting them, as do the reasons in other commenting systems, like Huggle. They can be modified afterwards in a separate step, but this is much harder,

E. They are placed only on the article, not also in the user talk page. This would be trivial to fix, and would make certain the ed. saw the actual reason. As is, if they see "declined' the extra step to see why is one that many never seem to take. It should be facilitated, not hindered.

F. Multiple declines leave the "declined because of..." category for both the current and earlier reasons, which mean double or triple listing many of them.

G. There seems no easy way for someone other than the original ed. to relist something without the messages now coming to hthe elister, not the actual ed. who wrote the material.

Three But it is not just the details of procedures; more basic problems are the overall workflow and design:

A. the rationales in the dropdown list do not make a crucial distinction between articles that just need improvement and those that are hopeless,

B. there seems to be no easy way to take an article and turn it into a redirect

C. The check for duplication comes when the article is being reviewed. It should come as soon as it is entered.

D. there seems to be no immediate way of removing AfCs when the article has been created,

E. There is no immediately obvious way of reviewing what has been accepted or declined for any given day, or if there is, I haven't found it.

F. There is no sorting by approximate subject, even as roughly as AfD does it. I consider this the worst of all failings, because most of us to some extent do specialize to some extent. I could very easily clear up all the scientific journal subscriptions--if only I could find them!.

G., H,, and so on, forthcoming, but I want to get down to the essentials

Four And all of this has three fundamental and over-riding mistakes in conception

A. All submitted article should feed into a single workflow so they can be spotted and reviewed after submission

B. The procedure is at the mercy of whoever does the reviewing, much of which is by raw beginners

C. It is almost impossible to audit--whereas NPP is designed so the more experienced reviewers can see what the others are doing.

FiveIt's not that there are problems. It's that the system is unfixable. I've asked for many of the simple fixes months ago. I received repeatedly one of three responses:

A. The change would be made. But they never were, not even sending people notices to look at AfCs that were no longer visible.,

B. It wasn't a problem Whoever has been deciding that doesn't realize that every handicap in the way of new users is a problem--matters like this need community decision.

C. It couldn't be done. I really doubt that--this just means it will be difficult. But keeping new articles & new eds. is the most important thing we have to do here. It's the critical requirement for sustaining WP, because no editor will remain here permanently--most of us get tired, or bored, or move into different interests or obligations--and the few who don't will eventually die.

Sixth and last My conclusion is that the AfC procedure is not worth the trouble of fixing. The existing articles should be cleared out, and a new and rational system started, modeled after the NPP system and Article Curation.

A. The simplest way to do this will be to start a MfD on the pages, This remains the control of the community over bad process.

B. Obviously, in practice this will be a long and disputed RfA,

C. I'd rather do it after someone has done at least preliminary design on a replacement system.

D. I'd be glad to help anyone who is prepared to prove me wrong by making sufficiently radical changes. DGG ( talk ) 03:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)This is worth having in one place. Would you consider copying it to a user sub-page and possibly slapping a "user essay" tag on it? davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 03:37, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

So I will, but I want to figure out how to format replies, etc. Perhaps by copying the question part as sections on the essay's talk page? DGG ( talk ) 03:46, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed response DGG, I endorse more-or-less everything you have said. I particularly understand your frustrations with trying to suggest changes that never get implemented. AfC has, for a long time, suffered from severe shortsightedness. I would like nothing better than to see the current system replaced with something more integral to MediaWiki (like page curation) accompanied by a centralized landing area for both declined and accepted submissions. I agree that this is unlikely to happen. I have for a long time consigned myself to the position 'one little bit at a time' where AfC is concerned. I think a lot of what you have mentioned is achievable, but at the end of it, will we still have a sprawling and complex project that only a handful of die-hard participants truly understand or can navigate? I think the answer is yes, but I doubt I'll stop trying to improve bits and pieces. I'll have a proper look through your suggestions over the next few days and see if I can get a feasible to-do list up for people to work on. Incidentally, I started some work on further refining the reviewer instructions. Primarily, I would like to split the instructions into 'using the script' and 'doing it manually'. My initial efforts can be found at User:Pol430/Sandbox/AFCR Script for the script specific instructions. Feedback welcomed. Pol430 talk to me 23:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I expect to adda few more things tomorrow, primarily from some qys I asked at WT:AFC. Normally, I'd agree with your strategy--I have always looked for a way to adapt existing WP process, rather than develop new ones. In this case I am not at all sure the process is not under the effective control of those who will not change it. Yes, WP people generally something get over-complicated & try to cover everything. But we have kept the deletion processes from complication, and Page Curation works well. I think the key is to think of everything as a preliminary step feeding into NP. I agree with your suggestion about the instructions: I would use it to even more strongly deprecate doing it manually. The current gadget is the one to build one for now. DGG ( talk ) 01:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

We have a persistent related issue at the Wikipedia:Education_noticeboard, of users creating an article on AfD and then cut and pasting to mainspace. See Wikipedia:Education_noticeboard#Another_class.3F. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

non-ed program users do it to; I do not think there is a way of preventing it--they could after all have written it offline entirely and pasted it into mainspace. The problem is that it leaves behind a duplicate article at AfC, and that can be easily handled by G6'ing the left-over AfC with an explanation such as "preliminary version" . But the actual problem is that they should not be using AfC in the first place We have enough problems with guiding the ed program users without exposing them the the vagaries of uniformed AfC commentators. The only time I ever tell someone to use an AfC -related process is when it's a promotional editor, and I tell them to use the Article Creation Wizard, in the hope that the strictures there will make it clear why they should not be writing an article. DGG ( talk ) 01:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

AFC Helper Script fubared the move

this edit in which you used the AFC Helper Script to move Barnard & Westwood to mainspace didn't remove the AFC submissions. Please let the script maintainer know what version of the script you are using. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 03:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I use the gadget. What it does, I don't know. I think almost everyone uses the gadget, except people who started before it was there and never switched. But I've seen a number of similarly messed up moves, & cleaned up after them. What seems to happen often is that if there are comments at the top of the page, it does not remove them. It may have something to do with whether previous steps were done rightI do not yet see a pattern. . I think it's probably necessary to check every time that the p. comes out right.

What I've been trying to figure out a way to audit the recently accepted ones quickly. Using the dated category doesn't work well, because there is no way to tell what the article will be about, unlike when it's still an AfC (or when something is an article) and you can see by hovering. I'm trying to scan now use Special:Log/move. I found a really messy example Databet. I'm not cleaning it immediately, so you can see it. BTW, who is maintaining the script? Confirms my opinion, that there is no point in trying to fix this process. The more I look, the worse I find it. DGG ( talk ) 04:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)I have been told that the error is as follows: If the user types in "{{afc comment|1="coment". ~~~~}} it will not get cleaned up when the AfC is accepted. They must use "{{subst:afc comment|1="coment". ~~~~}} I made this error on an AfC and the reviewer told me this was how to correct it. CorporateM (Talk) 13:17, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)(different stalker) Hmm, I frequently use 1= if I'm including an "=" in the comment. I'll have to start using subst: as a work-around. In any case, the script needs to fix this. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 15:27, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Uhm, I'm the script maintainer. Interestingly nobody informed me about this issue, neither at WT:AFC nor at WP:AFC/DEV...

I will check if I can found any problems and fix them...

@CorporateM: No, the other way round: if the template is substituted, the script has no chance to recognize what was part of the original comment/template. mabdul 15:39, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Question: does usingthe gadget for enteringthe comment at least put in the comment correctly? DGG ( talk ) 15:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Uhm, yes. It should... I never heard of any problems about comments except that I saw some that were manually added and using subst (and thus were not removed). mabdul 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

As I mentioned a few minutes ago at WT:AFC:
"Related to the "stuck and lost in edit" bug: I change a bit and requesting every time a token. Hopefully this fixes that particular problem, although this adds more API calls (means more requests to the server)."

mabdul 21:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I chose not to contact you directly as I didn't have key information (namely, gadget or production script) that you would need to get started. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 23:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

"""thanks, it will be very good to have at least this fixed, so we can work on the more pervasive long-standing problems. DGG ( talk ) 22:39, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course I try to fix bugs and add new features which help the reviewers to do reviews easier. mabdul 06:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

My participation in AFC

You've asked me questions as if I was a font of deep knowledge about AFC at least once on WT:WPAFC recently. While I do have some deep knowledge it has some gaping holes in it due to a long absence from the project:

I was heavily involved in AFC for a few months in mid-2007 but sometime in 2007 or 2008 I pretty much stepped away from it until very late last year or early this year. During this absence there was a wholesale reorganization of the project, with much-improved tools and procedures and an IMHO (opinions may vary) much-improved submission and archiving procedure. That's not to say it can't be improved again, it's just that my historical knowledge has a multi-year gaping hole in it. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 15:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

If I may boast, I even picked up a couple of now-dusty awards for my work in the July-August 2007 AFC backlog drive. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 15:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

AFC and sockpuppetry

I'm sure you've noticed a lot of new editors jumping in to start approving articles, or even declining them. Please feel free to ping me any time you find a user who is new enough that it is obviously out of place. Email is also very effective and reduces any drama concerns. We are seeing much of this at WP:SPI and can often connect the dots. You don't have to build the case or file the paperwork, I will gladly do that myself. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 12:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

perhaps you could email me (or tell me here, if its already been dealt with) to let me know me some examples you've noticed that aroused your suspicions. Unfortunately, one of the many faults of AfC is that we have no easy way of sorting out accepted submission by date. Almost the onlyway to see them at all is to go through Category:AfC submissions by date and look for the ones that link to article talk pages, but hovering doesn't work== you can't see what they are till you open them. There's another way--even slower, using Special:Log/move, but there is no way to separate them from the great majority of moves that are for other reasons. DGG ( talk ) 18:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

For example, if you see a new face that is reviewing AFCs and they have 100 edits here, I would like to know. I have seen editor A setup sock B, and sock B starts reviewing AFCs, starting with other articles. Realistically, a new editor shouldn't be reviewing AFCs anyway. Most new users wouldn't even know about AFC. Same with a new user that is submitting multiple articles that are borderline G11. I work so many of these cases at SPI, I'm often able to guess a sockmaster based on their contribs or style simply by memory, then I can compare deleted material, build a case, and request a CU. Reducing the spam from AFC by making it harder for socking there has to help. And email is best because if there is no connection, no one's feelings get hurt. You don't need to know or think they are a sock, only that they fit that unusual criteria of being where a normal user with their experience wouldn't be. I've been known to tracks socks for weeks when needed, then G5'ing once a connection can be made. Reducing the incentive. Since you are on the front line there, you might notice them faster than others will. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:26, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I'm trying more to clear up the back end, than the front line, so much of what I see will be very old. But when I see someone doing poor reviewing, I tend to look at everything they reviewed, back as far as it goes, so I might find someone that way. But what I've also been seeing in new editors is they do know about AfC because they've submitted an article, and on the basis of the acceptance of that one article, they start reviewing others. DGG ( talk ) 02:31, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Much of that is innocent enough, but not all of it. Often it takes digging through deleted contribs and using tools to find intersects with other known socks to make a connection, something you wouldn't normally do but an SPI clerk does regularly. It is an easy avenue to abuse, just like marking obvious spam from friends/socks as "patrolled" at NPP. I don't want to assume bad faith (or venture into WP:BEANS), but it is an easy and obvious target for abuse, and it is already happening. Searching for "AFC" at WP:SPI gives an indication [1] and I'm sure we are missing more than we are catching. Anecdotally speaking, I'm seeing more cause for concern than a year ago. The recent issues[2] with Jaylen Bledsoe and the three AFC filed, and other article created to bypass salting[3] is only one example of COI socking connected to AFC. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:42, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Quickly finding old AFC declines for G13, and old accepts for whatever reason

It's not hard to find old AFC declines, at least not for the time period after the current "way of doing things" took effect. If you go to Category:AfC submissions by date/2012 and drill down to an arbitrary date and look at the names of the pages. If they start off with "Talk:" it is almost certainly an accepted submission. If they start off "Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation" or something similar, you will almost certainly find an old decline. You will want to check the page history before G13'ing it though, just in case the submitter or someone else has modified it making it too new to be G13'd.

For verification, I checked all items through letter "K" in Category:AfC submissions by date/01 January 2012 and if the title was Wikipedia talk: it was a stale decline or draft. If the title was Talk: it was an accepted article, usually with a redirect left behind. Note that SOME of these pages had been edited or in at one case re-submitted and subsequently re-declined a couple of months later. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 20:51, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

You can indeed find them, but it's hard to audit them. To audit articles from NP or any other list, such as CSD or PROD or a log, I rely on the popup gadget, which shows the first few lines of text. About 3/4 of the time, this is informative enough to tell be whether I want to deal with it, or whether it's a subject about which I am ignorant. which are best left for others. It will also be often enough to disclose some standard problems, like the worst forms of promotionalism and autobiography. Here, it shows nothing. I have to open the talk p., and then switch to the article. Since typically I will look at 100 popups and then look further and maybe 10 or 20 articles, this greatly increases the time. I am nonetheless doing it, but the work is so great I cannot promise to do it systematically. The hope is that I will find the most frequent reviewers in need of some assistance. (for the unaccepted articles, it works fine, because then it shows the article on the popup, & I can can tell.) I am currently going systematically thru the oldest end of the declined articles in the new system before G13 gets to them, trying to rescue the most essential 1%, and find the 2 or 3% which are OK as is and should never have been declined. There's maybe 10 or 20 % that could be rescued, but I cannot personally revise that much of the encyclopedia. A few more of us, and we could.

The point is not that it is impossible to use afc; rather, it's needlessly difficult. DGG ( talk ) 22:03, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

AFC G13's

Any reason you're not deleting them yourself and only tagging them? Just curious since they're all being tagged correctly and you have the ability to do so yourself. Mkdw^talk 08:28, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

• Sometimes even admins like another set of eyes on something before it goes. Having the bit isn't a magic talisman against being wrong. Spartaz ^Humbug! 13:54, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, I do not think that administrators should delete articles singlehanded. We haven't actually prohibited it, in part because it is always possible to think of exceptions, and it's hard to put them into exact language. I am in fact making many exceptions to my own practice, because of the great number of these submissions: if you look at my deletion log, when there is an additional obvious reason , such as G11, or the potential for an article is absolutely hopeless, or it is a test page from a young person, then I do delete them single handed. I regret the need to do so--it is not what I usually do, but it does speed things up. Some admins think themselves incapable of error; I know perfectly well I am not among them. DGG ( talk ) 13:58, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I was not asking about the general practice of seeking a second opinion. I do this commonly for A7 and G11 examples myself. I specifically said G13 since they were all procedural in nature not unlike a G8 tag. It was not my intention to imply that adminship was an immunity to making mistakes. Mkdw^talk 00:07, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I was not criticizing you, but making a general statement. I do not regard G13 as purely technical. Some declined G13s are in fact acceptable articles as they stand , or with very minor fixes. I examine every one, and the ones that are acceptable, I accept, making whatever fixes are necessary--there are not many, about 1 to 5% , depending on what part of the backlog one is working on, but with the tens of thousands of articles, it's significant. (If I'm uncertain about acceptability, I do not delete it, though I may not move it to mainspace.) Sometimes, the submission will make a needed redirect. But some of the less welcome possibilities are more important: I check to see if the article by any chance does exist in mainspace, and ,if so, whether it is acceptable. I find about 5% do exist, and about half of them are not at all acceptable, some of them being speedy for copyvio or promotionalism. I also see if there are really inappropriate reviews--such as missing obvious copyvio--, and, if so, if the reviewer is still active, & still making similar mistakes, so I can explain to them how to do it--this is perhaps the most important step of all. The more I work on these, the more problems I find, some quite unanticipated. The review of them all, however tedious, is an opportunity to figure out how we can do this better. DGG ( talk ) 01:45, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks so much for that explanation. I hadn't considered it that way before and generally apply a housekeeping and somewhat liberal outlook when it appears the AFC is abandoned opposed to potentially reviewing a second time. This is probably largely a result that I have never tagged an article as G13, but simply come across G13's as having already been tagged by others. Cheers, Mkdw^talk 03:41, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion on AfC at the Village Pump: AFC ruining Wikipedi

FYI: A discussion is taking place at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#WikiProject Articles for creation Threatens to Ruin Wikipedia. I fully understood and respect your opinions on ACTRIAL - I have only added abot ACTRIAL as useful background - I am under no illusions that it, or anything like it are likely to be introdued. I am equally fully aware of your concerns for the state of AfC. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:44, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

A long discussion, but one sentence is enough for me to explain why with increasing experience there I increasingly consider it a disaster:

The insoluble problem with AfC is that the WP crowd sourcing method requires participation by multiple people to improve an article, but having just one random person give advice can work only when there's a very high probability that single person will be an expert, which is not the case at WP. DGG ( talk ) 05:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Sarah Franscesca Green (AfC academics)

Can I get a second opinion on something? I'm having a mild dispute on Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Sarah Franscesca Green, who I believe satisfies criteria 5 of WP:PROF by being a Professor of Social and Cultural Anthropology at the University of Helsinki and previously serving the same named appointment at the University of Manchester - both posts are verifiable by the respective entries on the universities' websites. Other AfC reviewers have declined the article and the creator is asking questions on the help desk. Can you clarify this person meets the notability criteria? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I accepted it. The publications plus the position make for notability, tho reviews of her books need to be added. I personally think all full professors at a major university meet WP:PROF. Opinion at AfD has not consistently supported me--some of the experienced eds. regularly discussing the topic do not think it necessarily sufficient except for the traditional UK style universities where there is one professor of something. I have almost always been able to show such people notable, except in fields against which there is a prejudice, such as education or other traditionally female-dominated fields. But it's likely enough to accept any AfC that's ok otherwise. (In addition, anyone who has published two books at good publishers which have received significant reviews meets WP:AUTHOR, which is actually an exceedingly loose criterion, tho in this case the book reviews need to be shown.

The request for secondary sources is unnecessary, when other criteria than the GNG is being used. The university site is a reliable source to prove the position; the books prove themselves--though I generally add the WorldCat reference for them & verify that they are actual books rather than just reports, and journal articles are proven by the journal references themselves.

I am systematically examining all the hundreds of declined AfCs for for academics to see which I can rescue, and this AfC was on my list. I could go much faster except that one of the things that always needs to be checked is copyvio from their university site. And, of course, I try to improve any accepted article to our customary format & referencing styles. It is unrealistic to expect new users to learn these perfectly before getting articles accepted. Nobody should be reviewing who does not know how to fix articles or at least know correctly & specifically what is actually needed and clearly explain it to the new editor in detail, rather than just use the temp[late.

AfC is notorious for people using their own private ideas of the WP standards, whether to decline or accept. Thousands of promotional or even copyvio AfCs have been accepted over the years, and we need to locate & get rid of those articles if they can't be quickly fixed. DGG ( talk ) 16:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, and for passing the article. My general understanding is that a named appointment means the academic world at large has decided your work is worthy of note and should be published to further the understanding of human knowledge - which, to me, is what "notability" is all about. The problem with professors is their work isn't typically distributed to the general public, so inherent notability acts as a "free pass" where we assume the sources must exist, but are non-trivial to access. Schools and villages are two other classes of article that regularly come under fire for "not enough sources", but can be passed via an alternative guideline. And, as I recently discussed as a meetup, the general opinion is that there are a large amount of people holding public office in African governments who would pass WP:POLITICIAN, but we don't have an article for them.

As you've no doubt seen, AfC has come under fire recently, partially for its technical design, but partly because there's generally insufficient good judgement in reviews. I think the "canned responses" you get in the helper script is one of the most damaging things, and most of my work at AfC is on the help desk, where writing a tailored response to the particular problem is required, and generally gets better results. I don't think enough people work with the article submitters - even if somebody submits a non-notable promotional piece, there's still the opportunity to teach them basic notability and verifiability policies, so if they go away understanding Wikipedia better, that's a plus point. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

(1) The key word there is "named" appointment. Some professorships are endowed or memorial appointments, normally pay somewhat to considerably more, and are considered great honors. The longer-established school have many of them, others a few. A named full professorship of this sort at a major university is recognized by everyone working on the subject as notable.

(2) You are absolutely right about a AfC. And I agree that the ideal solution for someone who writes an article that will never be acceptable is when they realize it , and withdraw the submission themselves.There's a message I use, modified as needed : " If you decide that the article cannot presently meet our standards, you can facilitate matters by placing at the top a line reading : {{db-author}}, and it will be quickly deleted.. When you have the necessary material, then try again. I do not want to discourage you, but to urge you to continue to contribute."

(3)general principles of notability later tonight. . DGG ( talk ) 16:35, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

AfC (Kudpung)

Hi David. You'll see that I have been answering some of your posts at the AfC discussion. I mostly agree with you - you and I have often talked until late into the night about these issues - and I'm sure you have realised that my comments there are aimed mainly for the attention of other participants to the discussion. Regards, Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:10, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I decided to comment again, to make this clear. I think this is actually the time to get something done. But since requiring reviewers to know what they're doing was not really the topic of the RfC, it'll need another one. DGG ( talk ) 06:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I've added a new sub section to the current discussion about AfC in which I've linked to some earlier threads for background on ACTRIAL and NPP because I don't think the proposer and supporters realise what they are possibly up against. I am firmly committed to the idea of some concrete qualifications for reviewers - do you think we could together craft a single-motion RfC? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:20, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I was going to suggest that. It 3would be on the qualifications of reviewers of NPP and AfC and any variants that get developed, without going into detail on the variants. I set it as autopatrolled for reviewing with AfC or NPP, with the change that autoconfirmed no longer give rights to mark NP as patrolled. And we need adifferent name than reviewing, to void confusion with protected changes. DGG ( talk ) 05:36, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Anne Delong/G13 Rescue

Dear DGG: I know that you are checking the G13 nominations, and I have been too. I'm keeping track of which ones I've checked at the above page. If there is a batch that you have checked, can you please leave me a message about it on that page so that we don't duplicate out efforts? Thanks. —Anne Delong (talk) 14:54, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I've been using the dated categories, such as Category:AfC submissions by date/December 2011 You 're going alphabetically within a month, but I do not know from what list or category. For Dec 2011, I can complement you if I know, but after that we need to think about the most effective way. Ideally, more than one person should each screen; for example, I simply ignore popular music and athletics, DGG ( talk ) 00:50, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

On the page above there is an infobox. I click on the large number and it takes me to the sorted list of G13 eligible submissions, sorted by month, oldest to newest, and within that listed alphabetically. YOu can tell what month the bot has got to by looking at the first one on the list. I've been checking them all, but I wouldn't necessarily save the same ones you do. If you tell me a month that you are working on, I would be glad to go through it and check the music and sports ones that you skipped (I'm a musician). —Anne Delong (talk) 01:49, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there seems to be a good reason for different people to do it differently. But until we get a little ahead, we probably should work in the same sequence, so I will work in yours' . (At this point I have done Dec 1 and Dec 2, 2011.). What I mostly check is organizations and people and books and anything that seems so obvious that it ought to be covered. (I often find there is already an article--Ideally if its about the same we'd make links, but in practice I'm just skipping over them in order to stay ahead. If it's not the same, I accept, and then merge/redirect. I sometimes delete a few of the worst as I see them, but usually not--enough other people are doing that. If I can fix and accept in a few minutes i do it, especially if its the sort of academic article I specialize it. I'll let you know on your p. the ones I've looked at, in a separate column. DGG ( talk ) 08:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

CSD G13

I'm slowing down and taking a closer look. Here's an article I thought was worth a second look:

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Gary Shapiro--SPhilbrick(Talk) 23:25, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

yes, and he was on my long but unfortunately incomplete list of academic AfCs I intend to revisit whether or not they get deleted. That's what I became an admin for, and I said so at the time. It turns out in practice to be quite difficult getting people who publish local archeology to pass AfD, because the publications are normally very specialized and of very low circulation; but about half the ones that should succeed, do.

In the meantime, a number of other people have started deleting g13s, and since the bot keeps nominating to match, it's getting even harder to keep up. I have however never given up entirely in such situations, just specialized further and further the ones I work on. Among G13n nomination that I have either stopped or rescued after deletion in the last week that I have rescued are several university presidents, a number of MPs & government ministers, academics with distinguished professorships. Admins who are unwilling to read articles should not delete them. The bot is just a bot, and must be forgiven. But we shouldn't have admins who view their job as imitating a machine. I don't think the bot designer intended this. I have tried never to do an admin action I didn't think about, and even so I've by now deleted over 15,000 pages. If anyone became an admin because they want to delete things, there's enough genuine opportunity. DGG ( talk ) 04:00, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

(stalking) I regularly watch articles tagged with {{db-a7}} to see if I can rescue them, and I've started doing with the same with G13s. The link I use is here and it does them by oldest creation date first - for instance Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Justin Clements appears to be oldest, created on 13 April 2010. What's our general procedure for challenging G13s? Clements might or might not be notable enough - I can't tell without effectively taking ownership of the submission and looking for better sources.

On admins, since it came up on Yunshui's talk page yesterday, I have been prodded by the odd admin about going for an RfA at some point, and dealing with CSDs would be one area I think I can help with. I don't want to do it without a consensus from a couple of longstanding admins who know those areas well, though. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:36, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

DGG, how is the bot's process (which is much further locked down when compared to a editor) any different than an editor trolling the G13 eligible category and rapid fire nominating everything they can get their hands on? The bot does not subdivide itself and create a exponential increase in the number of instances that get spawned up (which you allude to in The Sorcerer's Apprentice). The bot only nominates enough articles in it's current run to get the category filled up to a percieved 50 nominations. If you don't want to perform any nominations you don't have to. The bot is perfectly happy to sit on a backlog of 50 or more nominations to the end of the universe. Would this be helpful? No, but the bot is coded to wait patiently. Obviously if the G13 backlog stays at 50 with the same nominations for over 5 days I as an editor will start asking pointed questions to the admin corps about the negligance to the community authorized CSD process. Hasteur (talk) 13:27, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Hasteur, there would be nothing wrong with the bot, if deleting admins would be careful. But they are often not, and since the bot makes deletion a single-handed process for one admin, when it should take two except in extreme circumstances, it adds to our problems. It's not your fault that other people aren't careful, but unfortunately the procedure you designed makes it easy for them to be reckless at a greater rate than they ordinarily would--as you say, an exponentially greater rate. But I think neither of us expected it would be used this way. I agree with you completely that the real problem is with admins acting with no more discretion than if they were bots themselves. Do you think you can fix that? I know I can't. Though I do try be persuasion, and perhaps I'm at least making people aware of the problems. Whether I will affect what anyone does is as usual another question, and all I really expect is to educate some of those new to our processes. DGG ( talk ) 15:49, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

DGG, are there G13's deleted on topics that could eventually become articles? Certainly (although often, while the topic is notable, the article isn't worth rescuing anyway). But the reverse happens as well, people stopping the deletion of G13s incorrectly, e.g. this one and this one which I both had to delete as copyvios.

Similarly, you just stopped the deletion of Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Institute for Advanced Study in the Humanities, which is a copyvio of [4]; you stopped the deletion of Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Institute of Business Administration, Karachi, but we have the much older Institute of Business Administration, Karachi already, and the AFC page was a copyvio of that page[5]. Admins shouldn't be here to delete whatever they can, but they shouldn't be here to keep whatever they can either, even if it are copyright violations. Copyvios (together with spam, BLP, ...) was one of the main reasons to get G13 going. (comment by User:Fram), 13:51, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

challenging G13s

1. 1. The way to challenge a G13 is to edit the AfC . It ought to be enough to merely remove the G13 notice, but I always make an edit to the text also. The way to prevent a G13 is to edit the AfC. I do not know if it is enough merely to make a comment.
2. Once something has been nominated for G13 it is likely to be deleted in a minute or two. The only effective way to prevent it is to immediately remove the G13 tag and save. After that, I almost always make an edit to the the text as well, Since essentially every AfC needs improvement (as does almost every article in WP, it's easy to find something to fix quickly.) Sometimes I also make a comment. If I think it's going to be a problem I add an {{underconstruction}} tag
3. If the G13 tag has not yet been placed on the AfC, it's enough to edit the text. (and sometimes I leave a comment.)
4. If I think the article needs checking, I first remove the tag and save, because otherwise it will be deleted. That does not necessarily mean I think it will make an article. That does not even necessarily mean I think it's free from copyvio. It's necessary to stop the process first, a( as with any speedy) because otherwise things go too quick before they can be adequately looked at.
5. What percentage I challenge depends on the particular mix of articles. Last evening there was a batch of 50 where I did not challenge a single one of them. Once in a while I might challenge as many as 5 or 6. .

further work on challenged G13s

1. If I think the saved AfC can be fixed up in less than 5 minutes, and its of any interest to me, I fix it and accept it. This is maybe 1 in 50. .
2. If it's in a field of great WP interest to me and I think it will clearly make an article and I think the subject is important, I will spend up to an hour fixing it. I do this only once a day or so.
3. Otherwise if it's of WP interest to me I place it on one of two lists I have, for work up as soon as possible , or deferred. Experience unfortunately shows I will not get to all of them. If it's of no particular WP interest to me, I just leave it, and let others do it.
4. Just as a guide. WP interest to me now means academics, universities, many writers, classical musicians, painters (and sometimes other visual artists) political figures or movements, major national organizations or companies, major executives or government figures, anything of historical interest, a good deal of science, and many general articles. No WP interest means sports or computer games or popular music or entertainment & popular celebrities generally, "WP interest" does not necessarily correspond to personal interest in either direction--it corresponds also to what I can effectually do, or effectually do more than many other people. As the pressure comes on, I narrow my criteria.
5. I try to get the article good enough to probably pass AfD. I do not attempt to get it past a stub, unless there's material for more already present. I do not concern myself with detailed format beyond the minimum for clarity, though I do pay attention to arrangement & removing duplication. I would like to fix references, but there's no time. I do verify or add the key references. I sometimes pay a little attention to style, if the English is really inadequate. I think that just being able to pass CSD is not sufficient, unless there's clear promise for rapid improvement by others.

Duplication and copyvio

1. I check for duplication. Unless it's obvious, I stop the G13 first, because this is actually the slowest part of the process-- it can be there under other words. I find a great deal lot of duplication.
2. Most of it is articles that were not accepted but copied into mainspace anyway.
3. About half the time the move is of content that should not have been accepted. If the moved content qualifies for speedy & isn't worth fixing, I place a deletion tag on it. If it's just of low quality but passes speedy, I tag it as needed.
4. About half the time the move is acceptable and seems to contain all the material. I do not know if there's a clear simple procedure, but I usually nominate for deletion as "speedy G6, already in WP". Until recently I would check the edit sequence and merge histories, but the time pressure is too great. Normally its the same person in any case, under whatever name, so any concern about attribution is merely technical. Those who are concerned can see the G6 and do the merge.
5. Sometimes the content does needs to be merged. Again, there's no clear simple procedure I know of. I accept the article under a variant name if necessary specifying it's for merging, and do the merge immediately, leaving the normal edit summaries for attribution.In a case like this attribution matters.
6. I check for copyvio, at least in the obvious places. Sometime I miss it. Yesterday there was particular RW concerns for me, so I deferred some of the checks . The Institute mentioned above was on my list to check today. I would not have missed it. Ditto the duplication of Karachi, except that -- as I mentioned above--I do not consider that a true copyright concern but rather just technical cleanup. (Of the other two listed above, ether of which I think I worked on, both are the sort of copyvio content that is blatently suspicious, and we have probably at least a few thousand similar in mainspace)
7. It is true I occasionally do miss actual copyvio. A proper check for copyvio can take a half-hour even if no print sources are involved. One of my concerns about the bot is that it leaves no time to do anything carefully. If I think there is likely to be copyvio on style grounds but I can't find it, I do what I do at NPP--I place a copypaste tag, which is designed for the purpose. (Or I stubbify the content; or, if it is of great interest to me, I even rewrite it. Deletion is the proper approach to copyvio--when we can't fix it, or it isn't worth fixing.)
8. I make mistakes. I would make fewer mistakes if I could work more slowly & carefully. I could work more carefully if more people wanted to fix articles, and if those admins doing deletion checked more carefully themselves. At the moment, neither of these seems practical.
9. One thing does seem practical to accomplish: fewer mistakes will be made if the initial AfC checking is of better quality. Most of the problems at G13 should have been dealt with earlier--and of course this includes copyvios. Our about-to-happen limitation of AfC review to those at least presumably qualified will help this greatly, once we have caught up with the backlog. Therefore I understand those who want to remove the backlog as soon as possible--but I think a year the shortest practical goal.

Misc.

1. I am keeping a record of the impt. articles I rescue, and intend to put it on WP. DGG ( talk ) 15:33, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Copyvio The 33 Strategies of War

A while back you removed a large section of material from this article as probable copyright violation. Since then, the same amterial has been added repeatedly by a variety of SPAs. Edward321 (talk) 14:10, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I've removed it again and explained on the talk p. I cannot protect my own edit, and I was the one who originally removed the material. Ask for other opinions, & if there is consensus it does not belong, get another admin who has not previously edited the article to enforce it. DGG ( talk ) 17:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

CSD G13

Although I'm not yet convinced it is a good use of time, I've taken a closer look at some of the G13s. Some I thought were worth another look are:

• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Larry Laverty
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Letsbuy.com
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Living Computer Museum
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Luis Herrera Cometta
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/NEPAL SPOT EXCHANGE LIMITED
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Organizational Theory of Social Movements
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Pediatric Psychology
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Psychology of Hoarding
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Stonecap High School
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/The Game (Alyssa Reid song)
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/The Musicians Hall of Fame and Museum
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Theresa Wong
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Tim Scott (Social Justice Activist)
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Valley Council of Governments
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Volcanoes Safaris
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Veronika Zikmundová
• Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Elings Park International Raceway

I see the G13 nomination process will be on hiatus for a month. I think I see processes being put in place so it is easier to look at those about to be nominated, which seems easier than trying to look at them after deletion.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:22, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, certainly but I would also be really really glad if there were a quick way for admins to see the content after deletion, for AfCs and for other things also. And it would help all aspects of AfC review to have some way of roughly classifying AfCs by subject.

Incidentally, just putting on the postpone template does not always work. I find that to actually stop the deletion I have to edit the AfC to remove the speedy tag, and then also edit the text of the article to at least some extent, I'll look at the ones you spotted tomorrow. DGG ( talk ) 04:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I worked on the assumption that I had to remove the csd tag, although I see I missed one with Elings Park.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 11:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

=WikiProject Articles for creation Backlog Elimination Drive

....

A new version of our AfC helper script is released! It includes many bug fixes, new improvements and features, code enhancements, and more. If you want to see a full list of changes, visit the changelog. Please report bugs and feature requests there, too! Thanks. Northamerica1000^(talk) 05:07, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

alas, User:Northamerica1000, the new script fixes only the less important more technical of the problems. It still does not guide the review to give multiple reasons, or to say that something is so unlikely to be acceptable that it had better be withdrawn, and it still permits the reviewer to prevent acceptance for the most trivial variations of format, including even the false statement that inline citations are required (except of course for contentious matter, especially in BLPs), By all means we need to review, but we need to do it properly, and I still find the script only gets in the way of what is actually needed, saying the right things to the new editors. (I try to use it only for its function of cleanup and record-keeping, and erase or modify or supplement the messages it sends, even though this must be done manually. ) DGG ( talk ) 06:33, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Nevertheless, please consider joining the drive! I use the script, and have found the improvements to be helpful. I use the comment feature when additional reasons for declination need to be denoted. At any rate, thanks for your input, and happy editing! Northamerica1000^(talk) 06:48, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

The "no inline citations" decline reason is only valid for BLPs. Blaming the tool for the user's incompetence doesn't make sense. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:01, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

more exactly, it's appropriate for contentious material in any article, and not necessary for routine statements of fact in BLPs unless reasonably challenged or likely to be. Putting dangerous tools where unskilled people will use them wrongly is not a sensible idea, because they do real harm when they give a new user incorrect information, especially if they discourage them from participation altogether. This is however a common fault of almost all our templates--this is just my most conspicuous example.

NA, giving things as supplements makes them less likely to be read, by a user who is certainly disappointed and probably angry. I simply write everything as a custom reason.

As for me, keeping track of how much I work is effort lost from working-- I consider it a characteristic of bureaucracies. I find it difficult to say this without appearing to put down those who enjoy it, so I consider it just a personal preference. I suppose though there's an argument that having experienced people there adds to the perceived importance. But in any case I'm working mainly on the backlog of apparently abandoned articles, rescuing them at one or two dozen each week (approximately--I don't count them either)

And I'm stopping for now, because I've worked enough for one day. DGG ( talk ) 07:21, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional reply and for providing your perspective. Northamerica1000^(talk) 00:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Drafts

The way the WMF appears to be taking over this AfC intiative gives me pause. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:04, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

perhaps we should look at it, that they think they can do something to help us according to what we ourselves want., & the only problem is that we must take care they understand correctly. If we really have doubts about whether they will, the only practical course is to do in the new system only what programming we can ourselves do in WP with templates, and not ask for any features that need to be programmed into Mediawiki besides the existence of the namespace, however desirable they might be otherwise. Rather than try to get our way in conflicts, which past things show to be arouse antagonisms--and are liable to failure, it would be better to diminish the places conflcits can occur.

there are other things also about AfC that give me considerable concern, including a current arb com case. DGG ( talk ) 23:37, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not involved in the Arbcom case at all, but oddly enough it was sparked off by something i said last week. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:45, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Nor am I listed as involved. but the disagreement about both standards and interpretations among established editors is not promising, especially since some seem very uncompromising. DGG ( talk ) 15:41, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

FYI

User talk:Kudpung#G13 postponed submissions. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:58, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

2014

Live Feed to enhance the processing of Articles for Creation and Drafts

A proposal has been made to create a Live Feed to enhance the processing of Articles for Creation and Drafts. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC to create a 'Special:NewDraftsFeed' system. Your comments are welcome. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:21, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Whatever the outcome, things need to be sped up about how the new Draft mainspace can best be used by AfC who were the initiators of its creation. I also wholly concur with you that NPP is still very much in need of a shake up. However, and most importantly, I am seriously concerned - once again - with the Foundation's arrival on the scene before the RfC has even properly gotten underway, with a 'whatever the community decides what it wants, if it needs software tweaks we [the WMF] are not going to be in a hurry to consider it.' This reflects once more unfortunately, the Foundation's response to most, if not all, projects initiated by the community and I think they should stay out of it until at such times the community reaches a consensus and then, and only then, the actual technical details need to be examined. I'm also disturbed by their many claims to being the originators of such initiatives. Sadly, all this does is to reinforce the 'Us vs. them' dichotomy. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

What we need to do is very simple: develop procedures that do not need the wmf. They have already done the one thing we needed, which is to establish the new space. We would undoubtedly develop better and more sophisticated procedures with their help, but we can also do something without them, even if it means doing some things manually. I've ben doing almost all my own reviewing manually in any case because I hate their templates. This will have the side benefit of not making it so trivially easy for people to start without reading instructions. We do need someone who really knows template syntax, (or possibly lua, but that's not limited to the WMF. We can simultaneously start removing procedures we do not want to use via MfD.

The process of RfC is not well adapted to developing complicated procedure with multiple options. That's why you haven't seen me there--I haven't the patience. Procedures are developed best by 1 or 2 people. But of course there's the incredible problem here of the difficulty in getting them accepted. The WMF is not the major obstacle--it's our colleagues. DGG ( talk ) 03:21, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Feedback

I'd appreciate your thoughts on my feedback - if you concur or I have overstated things. You are more experienced with AfC than me. My intention is not to put the editor off. Your insights would be welcome. Thanks Span (talk) 17:52, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm working on this--it will take a while to give a complete response, and even so, I rather doubt the other editor will be satisfied. DGG ( talk ) 03:26, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I get the sense they are fairly new at this and are genuinely interested in feedback. Span (talk) 19:56, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

The real problem

Here's the real problem I could easily rewrite this in about 15 minutes. But shouldn't we ask the editor to do so, even tho dealing with them & instructing them might take longer? If the editor doesn't respond adequately , should we first of all have to keep track, and then do the rewriting, or let a notable person be omitted because of low quality writing? DGG ( talk ) 19:15, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree about the real problem. I have no answers to that either. Anyhow Voceditenore (talk) 08:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for coming out against the new "decline" message at AfC

Thankyou for your quick response at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/2014 6#overly aggressive wording to the new decline message at Articles for Creation. I couldn't believe it when I first saw it. I've been trying to help with new articles, but I find it is so easy to make people give up even when trying to be helpful! This just makes it worse. StarryGrandma (talk) 19:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

StarryGrandmother, in the meantime the way I avoid using it is: first, almost always give a custom reason, (which posts a very generic template), not the standard reason, and copy it for pasting onto the editors talk page. Second, I formerly would paste it following the generic template, but now I use it to replace most of the contents of the template. After the template places the notice on the page ,I replace most of it with my message. Here's a example from yesterday:

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! The notice that follows is not boilerplate, but written for the specific circumstances. As an administrator, I gave it a quick re-review, because of the previous submissions. Unfortunately, it cannot be accepted now, and is not likely that it can be revised to become acceptable. Here's why:

There is no real likelihood of an article here, for his career does not appear tobe notable yet. There are simply no major roles. The few third party references are the sort of local notices of a local person that don't show any discrimination, and are not reliable for notability.

Please do not submit this article again until the subject does something notable.

If you decide that the article cannot presently meet our standards, you can facilitate matters by placing at the top a line reading : {{db-author}} and it will be quickly deleted.. When you have the necessary material, then try again. I do not want to discourage you, but to urge you to continue to contribute.

If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, or on the reviewer's talk page

DGG ( talk ) 00:18, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Your approach to reviewing by always using a custom reason and editing it to put your message in is great. I will try that. I see that the nasty decline message has gone away (at least for a while). Thanks. StarryGrandma (talk) 03:33, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

that always' was a bit of a exaggeration of mine--there are some articles that arent worth the trouble, with major problems that one the std reasons deals with adequately. DGG ( talk ) 04:52, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Martin & Meditations on the South Valley

Hi DGG, don't you think Martin & Meditations on the South Valley should be moved back again to AfC? It is almost entirely self-cited to itself. There are no reliable secondary sources. Sionk (talk) 23:28, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

It is cited to itself as a factual description of the content as is not only permitted but preferred; it is cited to a recognized authority in literature for interpretation. (Levertov is indeed writing in the introduction to the book, which is not completely independent, but sufficiently independent for a famous authority in her field.) As for notability, the book won a significant award. I consider this enough to start with. It would obviously be even better if more were added, and I shall do that in the next few days. The informal guideline for putting an article in mainspace is that it probably would not be deleted at afd; some people interpret "probably" at 50%; I personally use a higher standard of 60 or 70%.

The justification for this is that in mainspace the article is exposed to the general editing and reading community, and will be seen and added to in the same way as other WP articles. In draft space it will be seen by almost nobody, unless the original author should miraculously appear--which happens about 1% of the time. In fact, I consider it an error that it was not accepted initially, and a further error--my own error--that in initially reviewing it after 6 months I postponed decision rather than accepting it then and there. I went to a large part by the appearance of insufficient sources, with out looking carefully to see if the sources supported the content.

I very much appreciate it that you are looking at material I accept--I need this sort of criticism to make sure I continue to align myself with community standards. I don't think I went to far in this one, but I know by experience that I eventually make some errors. DGG ( talk ) 01:30, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I simply looked at the article out of curiosity, wondering what the subject matter was. I've wikilinked the ABA and changed the cleanup template. Sionk (talk) 04:05, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

NPP

I have often thought that a possible set of criteria of competency to patrol new pages should include:

• 500 edits to main space and/or holder of 'Reviewer' and 'Rollback' flags with an established record of accuracy.
• 3 months tenure
• No CSDd or PRODed own creations.
• A demonstrated level of maturity when communicating with other editors.
• A declaration that they have reqd qnd understood WP:NPP and WP:DELETION

Implementation:

A list such as the AfC reviewer list. Anyone adding their name to the list and not meeting the ctiteria will be removed and asked to stop patrolling. Any patrollers patrolling without issue over the preceding 12 months to be grandfathered in.

getting there:

Perhaps an RfC could bring forth such measures, but I rather fear it would not be supported by Foundation staff whether or not they edit under their staff or volunteer accounts - we've had such issues before.

--Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:34, 22 August 2014 (UTC).

the jurisdiction over whom we give permissions is our own. We can implement this ourself via an admin board--it doesn't have to be a formal user right. We are indeed dependent on them for the implementation of a new right, and frankly, I'd rather not ask them for that--I think the rights matrix is too splintered already. This is nowhere near as basic as the right to submit a new article, which was the problem you allude to where they objected.

It doesn't much matter what level we choose, we can adjust it later. Difficulty in deciding such detail has defeated many good proposals in the past. The point is to implement some level to establish the principle. For simplicity I suggest it be the same for AfD and NPP. DGG ( talk ) 05:21, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

About WikiProjects and AfC

Quoting you from wikimedia-l:

I completely agree with Liam that the way forward in many areas is with the Wikiprojects. They need further development, but I'm not sure how much of this requires additional software, rather than additional active participation. We should learn from the most successful, such as military history. (or chemistry or medicine) They're a self-organizing feature, with the advantage of not requiring funding or help from the foundation. Some have however on enWP become somewhat of a closed circle, immune to community views to the point of trying to maintain guidelines the community does not support .he remedy for this as for essentially everything else is increased participation.

I personally like WikiProjects because they should be, in theory, the point of contact of a newcomer with people who have deep knowledge in the relevant area.

What software would WikiProjects like to see? Should I open a call for software suggestions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject? (I personally thought of enabling Extension:Dynamic Page List for them to view fresh category members, but it is supposedly a large load, while Lua can't do that either. I am not very happy about using JavaScript user scripts or gadgets for this, although that could be a last resort.) --Gryllida (talk) 05:43, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I cannot speak for Wikiprojects in general, or even for the wikiprojects of which I am a member. In general terms, my personal opinion -- one I think is very widely shared-- is that the role of Wikiprojects should be in organizing the creation and improvement of articles and the encouragement of good editing in their field. They have a key role in proposing relevant guidelines, but all final decisions and all enforceable policies and guidelines must always be the responsibility of the whole community.

The immediate question is the role of Wikiprojects in the screening of new articles and article drafts, and the education of new editors. My personal opinion, and one I think is shared by a number of others working with new articles and new editors--is that the only practical way of dealing competently with the large amount of material is to organize the work by Wikiproject.

To do this, I do not think we need any additional software, though we could use some modifications in existing software. The necessary mechanism for the allotment of articles to workgroups is already available at WP:Deletion sorting, though the algorithms (and perhaps other elements) would benefit from adjustment and simplification, and some minor modifications are needed cover draft space.

My own position-- and I do not know how widely it is shared--is that this should replace the current AfC and Draft procedures. Perhaps some new programs and procedures will be necessary, but I have not devised a fully developed workflow--the person closest to having a proposal for this is Kudpung, and I am very likely to follow his lead in this. Some of the existing AfC templates are procedures presumably will need to be adapted to work with Article Curation, but this depends on the proposal. The principle software change I think we we need is to remove the AfC procedure entirely, except for processing the articles currently in it.

This is not a technical problem, but one of convincing individual people here to do the necessary work. I am not thinking in terms of adding procedures or programming--I am rather thinking of removing many of them. Sometimes small amounts of well-devised mechanical devices can facilitate work, but WP has been much too dependent on a ridiculous number of complex and overcomplicated ones. At present the amount of overhead in many WP processes, including AfC, impedes rather than facilitates work. I manage to do my work there by ignoring much of the structure, often replacing the automated unhelpful notices with my own personally tailored and individualized messages. It's not that I would want to institutionalize my preferred wording--I think all explanations of to new editors should be written from scratch for the specific article, explaining things in terms that are accurate, directly applicable, and likely to be understood. This takes much more work than applying prebuilt templates, but it is the only way to give good results.

It has been years now since I have made a formal policy or guideline proposal. I just do the necessary work, and try to teach others likewise. Like any teaching there is a role for technology, but technology is not the limiting factor. I do not want to downplay the pleasure I feel at of your request; I have often wished I had the time to do some such work myself. What automation is needed should be done much better than it now is, and any assistance there will help. Though we're not currently at that point, I want to keep in touch. DGG ( talk ) 06:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I've already said what I think about project participation on AfC and why it doesn't work at WT:AFC this morning. Most project and/or their members however, are not aware of lots of little gadgets that help them keep control and overview of articles within thier remit. I do this for the WP:WPSCH and for the WP:WORCS projects. They provide me with real time dedicated watchlists and notifcations if they are edited or tagged, but apart from major project such as MuilHist or Medical, I think most other projects are very much less active. Even at WP:WPSCH which is one our largest projects, it's only really the project coords who are watching anything and we certainly don't have time to dedicate to the 1000s of school articles that need attention - the best we can do is intervene when some clueless patrollers wrongly tags them for deletion or send them to AfD - and sometimes even that can take up several hours a day. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:58, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The way to deal with inactive projects is to combine them, until they reach a reasonable level of activity, and to active try to persuade people editing in the area to take a role in screening I think we could probably mange to cover about 2/3 of the submission with active projects. . But essentially Wikiprojects is only one way of dividing it up by subject, and any similar way would work equally well. The present afc system--and NPP is not set up to do this. Myself, I tend to prefer NPP because it gives enough context that Ican go through a select the ones I am likely to be competent or at least interested in. With AfC, it's impossible *except for the special situation of pages declined for a subject -specific reason, such as not meeting WP:PROF, but that doesn't help with new submissions. So in working with them, I think that I necessarily spend too much time dealing with things others could do better, and don;t get the opportunity to deal with what I know. (It's not primarily a question of knowing subject specific notability guidelines or howe we apply them, but rather of knowing how to most easily improve an article in a particular subject.) DGG ( talk ) 08:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure about merging projects, even largely defunct ones. That would be a matter for the projects themsleves to decide and another leg in the AfC malady to be amputated first, and it would probabl;y take years. On the other hand, the beauty of the NPP system software is that it provides via it feed and curation overview all the background of the article, what's wrong with it, and about the creator and possibly what's wrong with him/her too. The actual use of the system from the point of view of the patroller is that it does permit the patrollers to be immediately selective over what they want to patrol. The only downside is that most patrollers lack the required experience and only go for the low hanging fruit. Indeed, they do little else than add Orphan tags (because that's easy because the software has already told them) and tagging for deletion. They imagine that some magic fairy is going to fly past on a broom and do the rest of the cleaning up. She doesn't come of course, leaving fully indexed articles alive in mainstapce for months, or even years until someone finds them and does something about them.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:50, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

You are right that the context provided by NPP/page curation is enough to select articles to review. Some however will need specialists in areas where nobody is checking. The Wikiprojects' role is to get qualified people to look at the list of incoming articles. At least the ones with active projects can be dealt with that way--my estimate is about half. Half the rest is easy, leaving 1/4 problems for generalists.

However, the indexing problem for incoming junk is a significant one, that's the point of the draft workspace. A single feed of incoming articles cannot eliminate it. I think the initial hope was for it to be done in the first few minutes, but that's proved impossible. I do not know how to deal with this, except to delay indexing for a day or two for everything until reviewed--and that is very likely to be resisted, even possibly by the foundation. DGG ( talk ) 04:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Discussion about AFC templates and workflow

I remember, in early stages of the AFC script rewrite, I tried to convey some thoughts on semi-automation, more comprehensive reviews, etc, on IRC; Theopolisme had mentioned that such ideas need a redesign of templates first. I'm asking others to consider doing it, now, in here. Please have a look. --Gryllida (talk) 05:45, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I saw this after I had written my reply above. I'll follow up tomorrow. But my first reaction is that I would rather work with no templates at all. There is no way for mechanical messages to handle this, because no matter how good they are, the important thing is not to be mechanical. DGG ( talk ) 06:25, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

AfC vs NPP

I really liked your comment on the Signpost article. It made me see things from a perspective I had hitherto ignored. Perhaps if all Drafts were fed into the New Pages Feed, but unindexed as they are now, and clearly show up as 'Draft', the current AfC squad might migrate to the NPP feed. Of course, this would open up the drafts to also being reviewed by NPPers, but this might not necessarily be a bad thing. At least the AfC submissions that are clear cases of unmitigated nonsense could be swiftly dealt with by CSD or summarily nuked by admins on patrol. And the AfCers might get some new found joy by seeing what crap arrives live into mainspace and helping do something about it. --KudpungMobile (talk) 11:46, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

KudpungMobile The flipside is that NPP would have to be trained on which standard operating practices they have to supress and which ones they have to add to the pile for pages under the umbrella of AfC. Hasteur (talk) 12:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Hasteur, I don't believe NPPers need to be trained in anything other than reading their own very complete modus operandi - something that AfC does not have and desperately needs. DGG puts forward some very valid arguments for such a merger, while I still believe that perhaps cloning and adapting the NPP software for the use of AfC is also a solution worth considering. At least both solutions would radically put an end to the constant talk about and development of palliative scripts which appear to be the major affliction at AfC - I sometimes wonder whether AfC is a playground for programmers or is simply heading towards a social networking venue such ss the WP:CVU/A became until we forced its closure and replaced it with a clone of an existing off-the-peg solution (naturally after also considering merging it with a sister project). KudpungMobile (talk) 21:44, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Hasteur, we inevitably need accepted operating practices, and it will be better to have one set of them than two. There are several aspects: First, the standards. There is only one part of dealing with new articles where we have almost-universally accepted standards, Speedy, and it takes constant effort to keep admins and other editors following them; acceptances at both NPP and AFC are very idiosyncratic. (And of course any standard relying on group consensus in individual cases as with AfD will inherently have considerable randomness and inconsistency.) Second, the procedures: a problems of both NPP and AFC is that the existing reply patterns are too rigid, especially with the insanely ineffectual AfC templates. (And the key advantage of NPP is its reliance on Huggle, one of the few procedural things here that really work well) On a purely technical basis, I find it usually better to go outside the system at NPP (the only thing I really need NPP for is the display of new articles to patrol), and sometimes at AfC. (in fact, the only reason I even use the AfC system instead of editing and moving draft pages directly is the need to keep the categories up to date to avoid confusing others). With respect to communicating, the use of fixed rather than personalized help will always prevent truly effective assistance -- but this has to be balanced against the difficulty of leaving the assistance totally freeform, especially to relative beginners. I do not want to discourage the social interaction element in keeping new users, provided it be social interaction about Wikipedia--the part of AfC when people come to ask questions is the most valuable part of it. It has the further benefit of making visible the answers people give, and see who among those answering is in need of instruction themselves. I personally do not like elaborate training schemes, but apparently some do--they are best run the way some people run the preparation for adminship, as an entirely separate process. Nor do I downrate the aid possible from clever programming--but this aid is best given within the context of WP in general, like Huggle, rather than scripts for elaborate procedures, like the incredibly kludgy new method of placing AfC responses on the submitter's page, repeating every possible choice in the template, but displaying only one.

there is a place for forms: some situations are sufficiently straightforward; and even a need for them: most really impossible material can be best dealt with in a uniform way for enforcement purposes (I therefore always use the standardized user warnings and block notices). And, Kudpung, I think it extremely dangerous to leave removal of material to single admin discretion--the speedy deletion system should be used, because almost all deletions need review by a second person. DGG ( talk ) 23:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Edward Stabler & AfC procedure

Hey, sorry to be a pest, but here's another one.... —Anne Delong (talk) 00:58, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

this one will need some work. No matter how many you send me, it is not being a pest; it is, rather, a helpful collaboration, because I can not possibly pick up all of these myself--and before you started, it sometimes felt like that.. What we need around AfC is a few more people who work as carefully and intelligently as you do. DGG ( talk ) 03:11, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, I am trying to work through the G13's but there are too many if I also try to fix up the ones I find. Last month, by the time I went through and improved the ones I'd previously postponed, I only had time to check the new ones beginning with A, B, C and D! Luckily, Rankersbo was very busy checking the rest of the list, and several other editors were picking off a few here and there and nominating hopeless ones for deletion to save us time. If you want to catch more of these professors, maybe Rankersbo would be willing to refer some to you. —Anne Delong (talk) 03:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Ideally of course, I want to catch everything that has potential for an article. I find it ironic that I actually helped propose G13, but I never imagined it would be used indiscriminately. I concentrate a little on academic faculty because I am so familiar with the RW and WP situation that I both know what can be rescued and can easily do the rescue. And because I want to help correct the imbalance in our coverage. DGG ( talk ) 14:22, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, frustrating as it is to see so many drafts being deleted, the problems caused by what would by now be 100,000 or so badly written, copyvio, promotional, BLP violating, etc. pages being picked up by mirror sites and then by Google was a real problem for Wikipedia's credibility and still is to a lesser degree. Try typing the word "Professor" into THIS and you will get over 1000 hits, and this doesn't count the more recent ones in Draft space. It's hard to believe that there are still more than 3000 of these old drafts to check each month. I thought that it would ease off when the backlog was gone. —Anne Delong (talk) 14:52, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

With each pass through the older drafts I remove the weakest, and promote the strongest; the ones that are left (sometimes I defer again, usually I just make a small edit, or a first pass at removing some inappropriate material, or removing the earlier of the multiple versions that new contributors keep adding instead of modifying the first one) are the borderline ones that will be hardest to deal with. The alternative, of making one pass and dealing definitively with everything, is impractical because of the time needed to fix an article. The practice of many other G13 reviewers, removing everything that cannot immediately be fixed, loses too much; the practice of some, removing everything regardless, is in my opinion wrong altogether, but I can not effectually combat it except by trying to get there first.

There are a few key changes in practice that would make dealing with AfCs much easier: First, decreasing the number of resubmissions by trying to make it unambiguously clear that a subject that fails notability will not be accepted. Second, detecting and removing the ones that are already in mainspace (tho of course we often must then handle appropriately an unsatisfactory mainspace article) This could be automated--we already detect moves into mainspace that duplicate an article--this could be instead done at the first edit, or automatically by bot over the whole backlog.. Third, as as been asked for many times, detecting copyvios at the very beginning. This too can be partially automated, and should be, again possibly by bot over the submissions as they are entered, though manual checks will always be needed, and automatic removal is impossible because of reverse copyvio and partial copyvio.

Using a single stream of NPP instead of prior AfC, would permit using A7, would eliminate the duplications with mainspace, and an automated copyvio check on everything submitted at NPP would be a good idea. As discussed above, the problem with a single stream is that we will still need to deal with and review a draft workspace. 16:47, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 14#New articles being created when a draft is in progress for a discussion of suggesting to those creating new pages in mainspace that they check for a draft in progress. Jaydiem's two suggestions, the second on easier to implement that the first, should cut down the number of duplicate articles; however, changing such an important function would need a proposal and strong consensus AND a techie to carry it out. —Anne Delong (talk) 17:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I see that particular problem differently. I think it is not common for user A to make an article on the same topic as user B's draft. Rather what a time sequence like this usually represents is the user B copies the material into mainspace under the same or a different user name after the draft is declined, either because he tries to evade the decline of an unacceptable article or almost as likely realizes that the decline was unintelligent. But the sequence I see most is that user A makes a draft ignorant that an article on the subject already exists. We do of course need a simple way of directly searching drafts; we also need a check for near identical article topics, because a very common response to rejection of either a draft oran actual article is to make one under a variant title. Most of these that we pick up is by the chance of the same person seeing both of them and remembering. DGG ( talk ) 21:49, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it's because I go through so many drafts, but I have come across many cases where I have had to throw a draft away because I took too long and someone started from scratch (not copied from the draft) and made a new article. Also, using the Wikipedia search engine will find variations in titles because it does a search of all text, whereas an algorithm that just compares titles from various namespaces will miss a lot, as you pointed out.

When someone types a title into the search box, there is no way to know if the person was planning to create an article or was just searching. If searching, we want the process to remain undisturbed. If the user intends to make a page, however, we want some increased functionality. A combination approach:

(1)Those making a draft should be warned about a mainspace article, and those making a mainspace article to be warned about a draft. An algorithm that checks and adds a line such as "There is already a mainspace article with that title" if it's a Draft, or "There is a draft under development about this topic at TITLE", if it's a mainspace title. This should be straightforward. Preventing the creation of one if the other existed would be quite controversial.

(2)Editors should be able to easily find a draft under development on their topic. A button beside the "Advanced" button that says "Check for a Draft in progress" and then searches only draft space for the exact phrase (but not just in the title) that is already in the search box should do it. —Anne Delong (talk) 10:42, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Postponing G13's

While I can understand and respect one postponement, I can hardly see justification in a second postponement when nothing happened with the first one. Both articles that you "postponed" for the second time have been inactive for nearly a year and a half. I see no reason to keep them unless you're actually going to edit them? Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 19:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

The reason is that it takes time to expand articles. There are at this point only about 4 people doing this for apparently abandoned AfCs, and it is not all that easy for us to keep up. My current practice in dealing with A13 is that as I go through the list of vulnerable articles, I leave about 60% to be deleted, accept about 10% without the need for any but cosmetic changes because they already have a good chance of passing AfD, fix another 10% sometimes including total rewriting and then accept them, and defer the remaining 20%. When I encounter them a second time 6 months later, I do something similar, Thus the old ones to reconsider decreases 80% every 6 months, reducing the number to a very manageable amount. (BTW, do you have any particular G13 in mind?)

If more people worked on them, there would be no need to keep deferring. As it is, over the last year, it has gone from initially 2 of us substantially working on this to about 4, so it is possible to make progress. If you cared to join, there would be 5, and you'd have helped solve the problem. The basic policy for deletion is that salvageable content should be salvaged, and deletion is the last resort.

I've been in this position before. Six years ago, I was the only person regularly checking PROD before the last minute trying to rescue articles--everyone else was, ignoring policy, just letting them be deleted. That's no longer the case--a number of people work with it and admins deleting at the end are quite careful. When BLP Prod started, I was the only person trying to rescue them. That situation is better now also, though not as good as it should be (I had to give up working on sports and entertainment figures because of their number, although I found I could source most of the ones I tried) . Progress can be made, though it is true that it can sometimes be discouraging . What is most discouraging is people telling me to give up on it, that the problem is too big to be solved--no problem is too big to be solved by attrition, and the recruitment of others who see the signs of some progress being made. DGG ( talk ) 22:58, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I see - and I now understand. What might be better is leaving a comment on the ones that you (or someone else) plans to actually work on. The notes I've seen are potentially notable, needs more work, etc. etc which seems like a reviewing comment. That, combined with the declines, gives the impression that they've been declined, no longer edited, etc. I'd be interested in potentially joining this cause. Seems a little more fun than NPP and AFD work ;) Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 00:21, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Sloane Citron & sorting drafts

You had restored this AfC after it was deleted under G13. HasteurBot tagged it again since it has been six months since you restored it. Did you still want to check on this one? -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 04:56, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. The wat I do these, when a first review a 6 month old article,

a) in the few times it is good enough for mainspace as is, I just accept it, usually doing a little touch-up for WP style. (my standard here is 70% odds of passing afd, a little higher than may reviewers) )
b) in the few times it just needs minor changes, I make them and accept it.
c) in the 20% or so of times it seems likely to be notable with major improvements, i postpone it.
d) In the majority of times it does not seem at all likely, I let it get deleted if nobody else decides to rescue it
e) Int a considerable number of times it merits speedy deletion as promotional, copyvio, or so on I list it for deletion.
but unless I think it obvious that there must be an existing article I have not usually been checking for that, though I ought to. If I did, another significant number could be deleted as duplicates--with perhaps 1/4 of them justifying deletion of the mainspace article also.

When the 20% postponed drafts come up again, along with those other people postponed, I {like others) adopt a stricter standard to avoid too many repeated postponements:
a) if there is any reasonable chance a minor fix will make it 50 or % likely to pass afd I pass it. When it's that borderline, the community should have a chance to decide.
b) if it looks fixable but not worth fixing, I let it get deleted
c) Otherwise I either postpone it again or make some partial improvement so it will at least look better.
but, again, if I decide to fix & accept, it often turns out that the article was already in mainspace,where it may or may not need deletion or major improvement.

That in fact was the case here. I decided to fix it adequately, only to find that while the reference format had been fixed, the article was even more overwritten and promotional than the draft. I've tagged it accordingly, and am considering whether to work on it.

The only real way to properly deal with drafts that need improvement is to notify the relevant Wikiprojects and workgroups. It would be trivial to notify not just these postponed drafts but all incoming drafts--the mechanism exists for newpages, called WP:Deletion sorting --but the people programming afc have for unspecified reasons not adopted it. DGG ( talk ) 19:55, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Update It does work for Draft space--Wikproject Physics is using it. DGG ( talk ) 01:36, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Draft:Joe weller & Newcomers

I have left the tag in case another admin thinks differently, but I am not happy to use WP:CSD#G2 test page to delete a page like this, which though an obvious no-hoper was submitted in good faith. Unless we can agree a speedy on the lines of "Draft page with no hope of ever becoming encyclopedic", I think things like this should just be left to moulder until G13 sweeps them up after six months. JohnCD (talk) 17:01, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I kinda agree with JohnCD. I deleted few of DGG's G2 nominated drafts but skipped several, some of which were far more developed than the hopeless Draft:Joe weller. I'd avoid tagging as G2 in draft space, unless it is really just editing experiments with zero information content. jni ^(delete)_{...just not interested} 18:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

RHaworth deleted it, but though I will on rare occasions use IAR at speedy, I know he is considerably more ready than I or almost any of us are to do so, so his view and mine about this particular case may not be representative of consensus. I have for many years sometimes used G2 for situations of this sort in mainspace rather than A7, to avoid sounding insulting about people who are just playing or don't understand WP, and I carried it over to this one. I don't want to call it vandalism. There is of course an alternative to avoid waiting 6 months, which is to use MfD. I'm trying to think of a way of wording it for speedy, possibly limited to BLP.

I'm trying to experiment a little with the various possible cases of Draft space articles--our way of handling them is not good, and I am not yet able to propose a comprehensive alternative--except to put everything in main space automatically--but we would still need some way of providing a place for people who need time in good faith to develop an article and would benefit from the potential input of having it on-wiki. DGG ( talk ) 04:25, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, RHaworth is a master of skillfully applying IAR to speedy deletion we all less experienced article deletioners should learn from and hope to emulate :) I see the problems you are dealing with and need for a polite not-bite-newcomers solution. G2+IAR is indeed better than G3 here. Maybe one solution could be to change the new CSD U5 to cover any "hopeless autobiography or userpage in wrong location" cases in AfC-domain as well? jni ^(delete)_{...just not interested} 19:31, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Copyright checks when performing AfC reviews

Hello DGG. This message is part of a mass mailing to people who appear active in reviewing articles for creation submissions. First of all, thank you for taking part in this important work! I'm sorry this message is a form letter – it really was the only way I could think of to covey the issue economically. Of course, this also means that I have not looked to see whether the matter is applicable to you in particular.

The issue is in rather large numbers of copyright violations ("copyvios") making their way through AfC reviews without being detected (even when easy to check, and even when hallmarks of copyvios in the text that should have invited a check, were glaring). A second issue is the correct method of dealing with them when discovered.

If you don't do so already, I'd like to ask for your to help with this problem by taking on the practice of performing a copyvio check as the first step in any AfC review. The most basic method is to simply copy a unique but small portion of text from the draft body and run it through a search engine in quotation marks. Trying this from two different paragraphs is recommended. (If you have any question about whether the text was copied from the draft, rather than the other way around (a "backwards copyvio"), the Wayback Machine is very useful for sussing that out.)

If you do find a copyright violation, please do not decline the draft on that basis. Copyright violations need to be dealt with immediately as they may harm those whose content is being used and expose Wikipedia to potential legal liability. If the draft is substantially a copyvio, and there's no non-infringing version to revert to, please mark the page for speedy deletion right away using {{db-g12|url=URL of source}}. If there is an assertion of permission, please replace the draft article's content with {{subst:copyvio|url=URL of source}}.

Some of the more obvious indicia of a copyvio are use of the first person ("we/our/us..."), phrases like "this site", or apparent artifacts of content written for somewhere else ("top", "go to top", "next page", "click here", use of smartquotes, etc.); inappropriate tone of voice, such as an overly informal tone or a very slanted marketing voice with weasel words; including intellectual property symbols (™,®); and blocks of text being added all at once in a finished form with no misspellings or other errors.

I hope this message finds you well and thanks again you for your efforts in this area. Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:20, 18 November 2014 (UTC).

       Sent via--MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:20, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

My experience is that many of these indications are at most merely cause for checking further or even usually innocuous: many editors routinely use the plural, or an incorrect tone, because they do not understand the requirements of Wikipedia. We're a unique type of communication, and what seems natural to us will seem very artificial to others. Some editors with a degree of skill are capable of writing error-free drafts, even in their initial edits. Many writers on commercial subjects use copyright and trademark symbols here because they are accustomed to use them in other writing, and do not realize our style is different. Many people, especially those preparing the drafts in a word-processor, use smart quotes either as a learned routine or as the default setting of the software; some programs automatically correct to this if not set otherwise. Use of vague terms of quantity and weasel-word expressions is common in all forms of writing and permeates the encyclopedia; the need for exactness is not obvious. Promotionalism should be rejected, but promotionalism is not always copyvio. The world is full of promotional writing, and people simply imitate it. Indeed, Wikipedia is full of promotional writing, and well-intentioned people may not realize it is not wanted. DGG ( talk ) 04:53, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Reviewing my article

Hey DGG,

Thanks for reviewing my article.

I have noticed their is a severe backlog in the new pages waiting review special page. I have reviewed articles from all the way back to February 2014 until September 17 2014 a few weeks ago. Coming back to reviewing articles today, I saw that the number of unreviewed articles was the same. I have reviewed up to the 20th September. It is too much for me to review starting at the back, especially with no-one helping. Can you also help from the oldest articles awaiting review and maybe "recruit" other editors as well.

PS. I voted to support you in the ArbCom vote.

Appreciated, Luxure Σ 00:21, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

There is likely to always be a backlog, because the number of articles being dealt with is at least matched by the number of articles being submitted. The only real solution to this is for there to be more qualified reviewers. You are getting the experience that permits you to join in , and I urge you to refine it by trying to write a few more articles of your own: it is the most valuable way of learning.

There are things that would help. At least half the requested reviews are re-reviews of declined articles, and much of the time, the article can be seen to have been hopeless from the start. We need more effective ways of discouraging people from wasting their efforts when they will not be successful. It would certainly help to have some rough way of separating articles by subject. It would certainly help if there were fewer reviers who did a poor hob of it, and gave bad advice, or rejected articles for trivial reasons. We also need to guide them more exactly toi make the necessary improvements--the templates do not work very well for this,--the only thing that is effective is a specifically written message explaining exactly what changes to make, and this will never be easy or quick.

The strategy for dealing with this varies between different reviewers. I have usually worked at the end of the unreviewed backlog looking for articles in one of the fields I specially work on, but in the last few weeks I have started to work with the newest articles, not reviewing them all, but hoping to very quickly sort out the 10 or 15% that are obvious keeps that will need only minor revision that can be done after they are in mainspace, and the at least equal number of hopeless submissions. In particular I have been watching for copyright violations and advertising, because these can and should be immediately nominated for speedy deletion. Clearing at least those out of the stream immediately makes everything easier.

This is endless frustrating work, as you clearly realize. One reason I ran for arb com is that I want to do something else. DGG ( talk )

2015

AfC

I expect you've noticed how I have practically stopped participating in discussions on reform of AfC. I've done a lot for that project, such as coaxing the 'draft' mainspace into existence and getting a set of competency criteria established for reviewers, and vetting 100s of G13, etc., but there comes a time when I lose interest in projects that have become basically a lot of talk with nobody listening. In contrast, there's nothing wrong with the NPP system, in fact it's a brilliant piece of engineering. The only downside to NPP is that in spite of being by far the most important new-article filter of all, totally ironically it has no recommended levels of experience for patrollers at all, no work group, no mother project, and no interaction whatsoever between the individual patrollers. That's why it's often called the lonliest maintenance corner of Wikipedia - and that's why the qualty of rewiewing there is pretty awful, and has a backlog of over ten thousand pages.

So at NPP we're still stuck with a lovely suite of tools and very few users with sufficient clue to use them. AfC on the other hand, although it has the 'Draft' namspace, has an incomprehensible mess of script which is a constant work in progress, a permanent stream of questions from users who don't know how to use it, raw newbies just hovering with their mouses over AFC Particip to add themselves as soon as their count reaches the magical 500, and programmers plying and vying for recognition of the best script; add to that some who with the best will in the world can't discuss things calmly.

The best solution would be to scrap AfC completely (you and I have discussed this before), merge AfC drafts into the New Pages Feed, add the AfC Helper Script's essential features to the Curation Toolbar, and create a software defined new user group for the reviewers. I've had several real life discussions at various venues with senior Foundation staff who all agree in principle that it is technically feasible and that it might ultimately be the best solution rather than reinventing a wheel for AfC. Ironically again, probably because there is no collaborative project surrounding NPP, it doesn't play silly stick-and-carrot games of backlog drives with users MMORPGing for barnstars and baubles. Such initiatives IMHO only invite more of the wrong people and reduce the quality even further.

Perhaps if my dream were to come true, some of the more reasonable AfC reviewers would migrate to NPP, and that would be a net positiver all round. I think I'm going to draft up a major RfC and challenge the broad community once and for all to offer their thoughts. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk)

Of course it is feasible--we did most of it for years; it's just redefining the group. Do you see any continuing need for Draft space? Perhaps it can be a place not for new submissions, but to which articles. including some new submissions, can be moved for improvement. I'd suggest not a broad afc to gather opinions, but a focussed one on doing the change. I think AfC as it exists has very few supporters. DGG ( talk ) 03:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the only supporters of AfC are the 'programmers' who use it as their playground. Just to underline my comment above, hardly had I spoken, than we get this. I do think there is a very pertinent need for the 'draft' namespace. Although the vast majority of AfC submissions are junk, as you have seen more than anyone, there are some rare rescuable items among them; it's also the destination for articles created using the Wizard - where I believe most of the drafts come from now. The draft namespace alows IPs and and editors who are not sure of themselves to create an article that will be kind of 'peer reviewed' before going live. You've got mail. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:12, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

so would you then continue to feed the Article Wizard articles into AfC? If we do, and use it for peer review before going live, we will have precisely the current problems. I don't think the "vast majority" are unsuitable--tho perhaps one could say "unnecessary" I estimate that at least half would survive Speedy, and half of these AfD , even on first submission. That's a 25% yield. When we were using NP as the only route, we rejected about 1/2, either at speedy or prod or afd. The difference is that because of the desire to use WP for promotionalism, we're getting more useless promotional articles, because more people know about us. Their number will only increase in the future. (& they're encouraged because a certain number do manage to survive afd , often erratically ) If we raise our standards a little we can keep them out, but somewhere we will still have to do the work of keeping them out. DGG ( talk ) 09:35, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

G13 deletions

Hi DGG, there are a ton of articles currently eligible for G13 deletion (see Category:G13 eligible AfC submissions), and many of them have been postponed before (often by you) and don't merit deletion. If you have time, I'd recommend helping me sort through the category to re-postpone the articles that have potential merit. Thanks, Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:47, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Calliopejen1, apparently the older ones are at the front of the list. What I'm going to do first at the rate of about 100/day is to scan from there looking for academics and others of special interest. I find it convenient when doing that to also list for G13 the ones I am sure wont make it to get them off the list. And probably to accept any that might reasonably pass AfD without stopping to improve them further.

We also needto check for the article already existing--which, when identified, needs to be looked at quickly to see whether it is a case of someone having written a reasonably good article and angry at the foolish decline putting it into mainspace anyway, or the equally common case of a spammer deciding to ignore the correct decline & putting it into mainspace. The identification could & should be done by a bot--the checking can't be. DGG ( talk ) 00:12, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Great, thanks! I've generally found that the ones with the old-style prefix (Wikipedia talk...) are better because they have been postponed numerous times already. That's pretty much my workflow too. I agree that it could be helpful to have bots identify where AFC drafts duplicate mainspace articles.... Maybe I'll post somewhere seeking the help of someone more competent than I am to code one! Calliopejen1 (talk) 00:41, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Questions about reviewing

David, would you mind having a look at Draft:Ciklum? I wonder if this wasn't declined a bit too soon. I don't have access to all the sources, nor do I speak or read Russian, and I do think that there's quite a bit of padding--but I think there are some valid claims to notability. Thanks--and I hope you and yours are well. Drmies (talk) 16:26, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• PS: see also this--declined initially, and then furthered on by Samwalton9, in my opinion correctly. Drmies (talk) 16:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I believe L235 and Primefac went through all of Sulfurboy's (impressive number of) reviews with them the other day on IRC, I'm sure each will have an opinion. I'm not 100% convinced with the one that I accepted there, but I think it has an above average chance of surviving AfD, which I believe is the rubric often used. Sam Walton (talk) 17:05, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
    • While L235 and I did go through their reviews, it was only to check the accepted drafts. The declines were left alone, because I figured they'd sort themselves out. Primefac (talk) 17:08, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
      • I actually remember the Ciklum one, because it was borderline for me and I actually went through and translated the Russian sites. I declined it because nearly all the credible sources were generic press release involving simple info about the company or acquisitions, not actual coverage of the company as a whole. As a result it makes the entire page read like a press release. It has an impressive amount of sources, but I think it's a case of WP:BOMBARD. As some of the sources are just the same press release (title and all) but on different sites). Can the company pass notability? Probably. Should it have been moved to the mainspace as it? No, not in my opinion at this time. Sulfurboy (talk) 17:58, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
        • Also, the Redline article was brought up. Please note it was heavily edited after my decline. The initial decline was quite correct. Sulfurboy (talk) 18:06, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
          • FYI, Sulfurboy, (last time I checked) the generally accepted guideline is, if it has a >50% chance of not being deleted at AfD, it should be accepted. Cheers - L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 18:38, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

please,everybody, give me a chance to respond. DGG ( talk ) 18:54, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• First, dealing with the two articles in question here:

These two articles have the same problem: they are very likely written by COI editors, about borderline notable companies, but avoiding gross promotionalism. There is no correct thing to do with articles such as these. The way I handle them depends on my judgment of the importance of the company and the ease of removing the promotionalism: if important and easily fixable, I remove the promotionalism and accept. Otherwise I do not. We have altogether too many weak promotional articles on WP, and I try notto add to them. For these two I would evaluate as follows:

Redline: I am not sure that I would have accepted it as it was when Sulfurboy declined it. If I had, I would have made at least the same edits LPartner did,; after those edits, I would probably have accepted it as did Samwalton9, but I would have made at least some of the edits that Edgarde subsequently did. I may make one or two more. There's a special problem with companies whose notability is based on negative material. Had this been a natural person, I think it would probably be deleted at afd. There have been several efforts to get us to treat corporations the same way, just as US law sometimes does. They have all been overwhelmingly defeated, in my opinion correctly. We do remove libel, and we do normally remove individual consumer complaints, on the grounds of balance and NPOV. We do not remove relevant well-cited negative financial information, again on the grounds of NPOV.

I see that Lpartner is a COI editor making proper disclosure on her user page. Had she not done so, since it is fairly obvious that it is a COI article, I would possibly have felt differently. Even tho the focus is on negative information, good paid editors will normally include the obvious negative information to avoid the appearance of bias. (I doubt she is a paid editor by the way, but since enough disclosure was made in case she was, that's irrelevant.) Although Lpartner may have an interest only in her former company, she's learned to be a good editor and I urge her to work on other companies.

Ciklum The article is translated from the Russian WP. It has been listed for deletion there, and I've commented on that aspect on the Draft. I would not accept the article in its present state. It would however be fairly easy to fix by removing most of section 1, part of section 2, and all of section 4, and by removing those of the references that merely mention the company. The Russian references are not a problem--a Google translation of a news article normally is clear enough to indicate the degree to which a news article is relevant, at least for the European languages--including Cyrillic,which it handles better than it used to. In this instance, Ref 1 is a news article that appears to be essentially copied from the company web site. Ref 7 gives the company a little more than a mention, but not much more. I consider it was correct to decline,since no one is obliged to fix. It would not be against our rules to accept without fixing, but I would not have done so. If it is accepted, it will go to afd, where it will only be kept if it is fixed, and I'm not sure even then. It is such an obviously promotional article that I would not go to the trouble of fixing it--there are more important articles in need of help. Niklo70 seems to be an obviously promotional editor on 3 different WPs. If a paid editor, he needs to declare his coi. I've warned him. We have no formal rule that violation of the tou is a cause for deletion or blocking, in my opinion mostly because it is often not sufficiently clear that a coi editor is a paid coi editor. We do of course block promotional-only editors, regardless of their motivation.

• Second, about AfC standards. It is not wise to approve articles that would have a bare 50% chance of survival. Most of us interpret having an above average chance at something like 2/3 at least. (My own result is above 95%, because I will not pass at 66% without trying to do some fixing. I do not want my name associated with junk.) Keep in mind that there are other reasons for deletion at AfD than lack of notability. Increasingly, borderline notable articles that show substantial promotionalism are being deleted there--my result for such AfD nominations is about 75% deletions, & most of the keeps are ones that get fixed at AfD.

In general the declines at AfC that are particularly wrong declines are those where the problem is merely style or formatting. Those problems do usually get fixed after articles go into mainspace. Declines which are wrong but understandable is where the notability is interpreted incorrectly by those unfamiliar with the field--some people work on afcs in any subject; I work only on those where I am sufficiently familiar with the field to recognize major notability that is not expressed properly, and where I know the WP standards well enough to judge what will pass. I do not claim universal competence for evaluating everything covered by WP. Declines that may be wrong but cannot always be avoided are those in fields where there are no accepted standards, or with problems like promotionalism where standards are changing.

• Third, with respect to Sulfurboy's AfC work in general, I will take a look for myself this weekend. It's going to be a spot check, not a comprehensive review on all of them, but I don't want to comment on someone's work based on a overly-quick impression. Nor would I personally use irc for such matters--it doesn't give time to think. DGG ( talk ) 21:09, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks David. Look, you don't have to do a comprehensive review because I had doubts about only two of the cases they dealt with, but I appreciate your effort and your comments here. Drmies (talk) 01:41, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

once you get me started .... :) DGG ( talk ) 03:03, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Abandoned AfC drafts

I spent some time going through G13 eligible drafts today and was a bit disturbed at how many of them are notable (well over half). Since you are one of the few people who regularly work in that area, I thought I would ask you if this was normal or if the obviously non-notable stuff has largely been deleted already creating a biased sample in the remaining material. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:23, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

It depends wether you mean clearly notable, or just notable enough to be likely to be found notable at AfD. And notability is not always the problem: there are those which are notable, but are so promotional that it would be more trouble to rewrite than the importance would justify. Then there are copyvios. Then there are the substantial number that have already been moved into mainspace. Looked at from the goal of rescuing everything possible, then there are probably well over half that could be turned into some sort of passable article; but there are probably only 1/4 that are passable as they stand or with minor fixes.

In the past, I accepted about 20% and postponed another 20%, in order to make reasonably certain nothing I passed would be rejected. (and so far, I think essentially nothing has been, except when I've missed an occasional duplicate under another name, & a few copyvios I didn't catch.) Now I'm trying to accept a somewhat larger amount. The main group that I don't want to accept but I don't want to se rejected are ones which look like they need careful checking for copypaste from sources I do not have available, or unreferenced articles on geography or the like which probably could be verified, but not easily. Some of these are detailed articles on narrow subjects, some are suspicious because of the manner of referring or indentation or line-width.

However, I rarely go thru a daily list unselectively. Each time I do this, I tend to be looking for something--often a topic I recognize. I also work on the lists of those declined for some particular reason. Sometimes I look primarily for things to speedy as G11 (I'm not sure anyone else is doing that in particular). I almost always skip athletes and popular entertainers unless I notice something obvious one way or another, as other people have a more reliable sense of importance here. I try to select ones that I more easily can handle among the people likely to be working on this: for example, book authors whose importance isn't obvious, or subjects that should be checked in other language wikipedias I can decipher. This sort of patrol of new submissions, either AfC or NPP, tends to become dull, and I try to vary it.

I'll try to take a look at what you worked on today--you could take a look at mine if you like. The move log is the place to look. But incidentally, I see I have been deleting many more articles and drafts than you--but then I sometimes want to conscious clear away the rubbish even if it will be deleted by G13 a little later on. Concentrating on NPP/AfC has been making me cynical, perhaps unduly cynical. DGG ( talk ) 23:58, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

My sample size was small, so I may have just had an unusually good sample, hence the question. I was mostly disturbed by CCDC47 which was essentially declined because the references weren't quite right and then untouched for the 6 months. CBS Watch was indeed unacceptable as it was written - an addition to being promotional-ish, the bad paragraph was actually a copyvio too. It was easy enough to fix though. The other two I delayed deletion on are (obviously) unacceptable as is, despite being notable. (And one of the deletes was notable, but a duplicate article.) ... I normally work the back of the AfC pending submissions. I'd say over half of those are acceptable-enough as is, but I'm easier on submissions than most. I always figured the oldest one were the toughest calls on average and the real acceptance rate was much lower because of obviously bad stuff being rejected quickly. (Although maybe not, I am always mystified at how many copyvios sit around for a month+, and usually they are not hard to spot - over half of promotional sounding stuff is copyvio too.) Thus, I was surprised I didn't see a lower average quality carried through to G13 candidates. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:08, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the oldest are those that are tough either because reviews don't feel comfortable either accepting or declining, or because they take some specialized knowledge. The problem with delayed deletion is it comes back again after 6 months--I used to do this a lot, but now I try do it only when I'm feeling really rushed, like tonight. So details tomorrow. DGG ( talk ) 05:14, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

2016

NPP reform

Still having enormous difficulties finding someone to extract the required stats. Anoher one has just admitted after keeping us waiting for 3 months, that they don't actually know how to do it. I don't know my way around regex and scripts otherwise I'd do it myself. I've been trying for 15 months to get someone to do this. It can't be all that difficult because Scottywong, now sadly retired, used to shake this kind of stuff out of his late-night beer glass for us. Someone is even suggesting we should obtain Ironholds approval for this - I think that is most inappropriate.

IMO, providing stats to support proposals for improvement or addressing cross-Wiki issues is a service the paid technical staff should be providing to the community who at the end of the day has to do most of their dirty work for them. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:43, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

there are jurisdictional reasons why this is difficult. Tell me exactly what you want, and I know whom to ask. DGG ( talk ) 07:30, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@Kudpung: I'm pretty sure I have explicitly asked you before, but in case I missed it: I have no interest in conversations around these topics as I've got utterly sick of the narrative. This goes double for these, since I'm also sick of how inaccurately data is used. Please do not tag me into them. That, I find inappropriate. Ironholds (talk) 14:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

If it's data that I have access to, I can probably process it into whatever form you need. As above - what exactly do you want? —Cryptic 14:53, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi Cryptic, it's all information that is freely available. It just needs to be mined and collated into a Wikitable. I would mail you what we want but you don't have mail enabled. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. Enabled. Send away, if it's really something that can't be discussed publicly. —Cryptic 15:13, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

• I think this is pretty conclusive now and we can probably go ahead with the RfC, unless you think Cryptic should dig deeper in his quarry while he knows what we're looking for. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

  (talk page stalker) Not that I have time to do it, but I think you guys should dig a little deeper on this one. First, are you sure that the page triage log is the one you want? That appears to include every action taken using the page curation interface - including adding tags and so forth - whereas your goal sounds like it is focused specifically on the filter created by patrolling. Second, you've shown that there are a lot of low-edit-count users using page curation, but not that their performance is worse. Third, while it's obviously much easier to collect data from the page curation tool than from twinkle, I wonder if your edit-count distribution mostly shows that inexperienced users are more likely to use the tools built into the interface, while experienced users use the more customizable option that requires more setup. Also, I think there's a typo/math-o somewhere, because the edit count numbers/percentages don't add up. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:49, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Opabinia regalis: Who is 'You Guys'? It took us 15 months to find someone who was prepared to do the data mining. You may be a whizzkid at math but you tend to forget that we run-of-the-mill non-arbcom members are not statisticians. We don't need to be either, in order to know for years that something is desperately wrong with our system(s) of quality control that allows the very young, raw newbies, and paid spammers to operate Wikipedia's most crucial maintenance task of all. You don't have the time; I don't know how to dig for stats, so here we are now, all being criticised, and being sent back to square one. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:01, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

NPP backlog

Just a few weeks ago the backlog was only a few hundred. 20 days ago it was 7,000, today it is over 9,000. That's an increase of around 30% in just 3 weeks. Where will it stop?The backlog number is totally unacceptable band is almost back to 2011 levels, but I don't know what the solution is. I've sent all day (over 8 hours ) on it today, but it's not made a dent. New articles are arriving faster than I can patrol them. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:57, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I will get there. Perhaps we need to select a few people for autopatrolled? DGG ( talk ) 16:24, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

It's not really you and I who should be doing NPP except for checking on the performance of te oatrollers. I've patrolled about 120 articles and deleted about 20,so that's about 1 article patrolled about every 4 mins. I admit I'm slow but maybe I just do a lot more background checks or it's because the ones I patrolare the more difficult ones. Today's experience does not demonstrate that articles by established uses are the problem - I'm still going fr those that are unsourced and other suspicious articles, leaving the low-hanging fruit and non toxic articles or others to patrol. Is today a special holiday or something in the USA? --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:50, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I frankly never concern myself about the situation too seriously because we will actually get there (given the certain portion of it being unacceptable and needing deletion); another side of it contributing (perhaps a three-fourths portion of it) is the fact the oldest (from years and years ago) are being filled with results of vandalism moving and other activities. As someone who fluidly went through 9,000 (when it was this number last year) within a few months or so and easily going through at least 1,000 or over a day, I've learned the NPP (no matter what numbers) can be accomplished. As DGG and I both know, particularly what helps alleviate repeated advertising, it is warning users seriously. SwisterTwister talk 16:54, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I cannot do 1000 a day; in fact, I have learned I cannot accurately do more than 10 at a time, unless I work with ones that can obviously be accepted (there are many of them, which is why I will try to move some of the regular to auto-patrolled). I am currently concentrating on the patrolled NPs, screening ones with what might be problematic titles to see if there is anything wrong.

I do not think it a waste of time for experienced editors to do a little routine work of all sorts, and I try to get to miscellaneous places every once in a while, to keep contact with how they are working and what the current standards are. Or at least that's the excuse I give--perhaps it is just that I am restless. DGG ( talk ) 17:29, 1 August 2016 (UTC) .

Bypassing AfC

...

This can s perfectly legitimate--if the article is in the end acceptable. I've done it sometimes--the only real reason I go thru the RfC acceptance process is to get the articles in the right category & added to the statistics. The real problem is that PR people do this rather frequently, without improving the article. I have learned for some types of articles before deleting a G13, to see if by any chance the article is in mainspace, and if so, whether it's acceptable. Sometimes it is, and it is the reviewer who was in error, and rather than argue it, the person just bypassed them. Considering the quality of some reviews, I can well understand them.

The fundamental principle to understanding WP procedures is that there is no underlying principle or system. There are multiple ways to do anything, some of them devised by programmers wanting to display their cleverness or take care of every unlikely contingency they could think of. Not all of them had actual editing experience.

As for the article, it's not my field, but it looks fine to me. DGG ( talk ) 22:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

DGG: Thank you. Very clear and helpful. FeatherPluma (talk) 00:35, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

AfC submissions

I've just read Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Damage_done_by_declining_AFC. I believe we have yet another example where, except for a tiny minority of truly dedicated reviewers, AfC is a broken process and which also the controls I introduced and which were adopted by the community are not working. Around 10% of new enrollments to the reviewer list are reverted following scrutiny, not to mention the others on that list who are blocked, banned, or while hovering until they scrape through the numeric requirements have quickly demonstrated that they nevertheless do not possess the required knowledge or skills. It's pretty much the same problem that we have at NPP. aybe 90/500 isn't enough and it should be 180/3000 as for Page Mover. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:22, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

that's longer than we used to require for admin! And, just like admin, the numbers aren't what does it. There will always be the need for scrutiny of the new reviewers. WHat we need is to get it organized, instead of random. DGG ( talk ) 02:02, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

= AFC redux

Rather than clog up ANI, I'd like to offer some responses to your last post there, specifically the Some things can never be done section: (continued in AfC NPP archive)

• Consistency in reviewing standards, any more than there is consistency in AfD. Every editor at WP is basically free to do what they like, and we have no way of asserting authority except in gross deviations. I fundamentally disagree. Without some consistency, we might as well pack up the AFC project and go home. We should not need to assert authority to ensure some consistency: this isn't a schoolroom. Editors who see reviewers diverging too much from a standard ought to be able to raise a concern in a collegial way, and discuss it. It works for CSD, closing discussions, etc.
• Since we make the rules, we can interpret them however a consensus may please ... The only alternative is deciding content by a top-down hierarchy, or a dictator. Both can be done, but neither would be Wikipedia. We have policies and guidelines, many of which have been sufficiently refined to admit of little interpretation - no local consensus will prevail against those in the long run. As for top-down/dictatorship, WP:FAC was run like that for years.

More importantly, we somehow need to get greater engagement of reviewers with new editors if AFC is going to be successful. I just saw an exchange between a new editor and a reviewer that prompted me to look at the history of the draft in question. The draft is about Music rehearsal spaces, a topic that will never be a huge article, but ought to be sufficiently sourceable to either create a new article or to make a decent section of a parent article.

The draft starts with a load of references and not much content. It is declined for the first time because "You have added too many references for a short paragraph. Read WP:CITEKILL for more details. Also, you need to demonstrate notability of the subject involved".

So the editor sets about trimming out some of the references and adding more content. Eventually it is declined for the second time because "This article seems to branch out to too many topics. Listing individual rehearsal spaces is definitely out of scope. What it means to musicians does not belong here because that is WP:SYNTH. Music education is an entirely other topic. Think about what you want to say about rehearsal space and only the space."

First, too little content; now too much. So the editor asks the reviewer for help: "I have recently edited my declined submission following reviewers' reasons for not accepting it. I am new to wikipedia so hope I have done the right thing. I was wondering if reviewers could simply remove passages they felt did not meet the criteria."

Here's the response: "Bandspace, sometimes it is possible to just remove some extraneous paragraphs and "fix" an article, but often it would require a whole re-write. Given that there are often around 600-800 articles waiting to be reviewed, we wouldn't get far if we spent hours on each article. So the work reverts to the creator -- it's discouraging, but we hope it also is a good learning experience."

But the editor isn't learning anything, good or bad. They chop the draft down by 90% to address the "too many topics". It is now declined for the third time because "Submission is a dictionary definition".

How is the AFC process intended to terminate? As far as I can see, the 600-800 draft backlog will just recirculate the same drafts among reviewers when the editors aren't given sufficient help to improve the draft, either by a reviewer or by other editors who may have the expertise to help out. The only way that terminates is when the editor becomes so discouraged that they give up. Surely that's not the experience we want for new editors? It's little wonder we have had so much difficulty in recruiting them. I wonder if I could ask Kudpung, who was one of the originators of AFC, and Dennis Brown, who has spent so much time looking at editor recruitment and retention, if they concur with my concerns here? --RexxS (talk) 16:32, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

I certainly do. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:27, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Furthermore, I've published a version of it, at Music rehearsal space, so that the community can work collaboratovely to develop it. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:40, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

• I could have said it more briefly: reviewing articles requires human judgement. All humans are imperfect, Therefore there will inconsistencies and errors.
  

To elaborate on this: My estimate of the current error rateat AfD is about 5 % in each direction (this doesn't just mean ones I disagree with, but probably erroneous results) Any process for accepting articles based on whether they will passA fD, even if done perfectly, will have at least an equal error rate. But if it is done as imperfectly as AfD, the error rate will be double, presumably 10% in each direction. But reviews are done by individuals not group consensus, so the rate will be higher yet. I would be surprised if we could ever do better than 20%.

Fortunately there is already in existence effective ways to reduce that rate: articles improperly accepted should be caught at NPP just like article inserted directly. Article declined incorrectly, if submitted multiple times, get different reviewers. I think we are already at about 10% error in the overall process, and there no real possibility of ever going below 5% , because that's the error of our final decision making process.

Anyone can easily find individual errors; I find some every time I look (but when I review I am primarily looking for errors). They do not prove anything about the overall process. Their analysis however can often correct specific faults. The purpose of my checking reviews at AfC is both to rescue or delete individual articles, and to identify reviewers who are not doing it properly. Many simply need help, or reminders, and I provide it. Some need a warning, and if necessary to be told to stop working on the project until they know more,. This usually works: I do it, and so does Kudpung. Instructing people is a slow process and can take years. People improve slowly, not by a radical conversion. The difficulty is when experienced people insist on doing it wrong. It is very difficult here to challenge them on this, but even a challenge where they are defended usually does influence them to change a little. WP has no real defense against stubborn experienced people who do things wrong but with technical skill.

• As for other points.

It is not a circular process: eventually a draft will either get accepted, get speedy deleted for a reason other than G13, get deleted for G13, or submitted so many times without improvement that it will go to MfD, where it will either be deleted or get some attention. I can prove it works: we did clear out a backlog 10 times the current size, so we will eventually clear these also.

It does not take hours to rewrite an article so it passes AfD. For anything ordinary, it takes me between half and hour and an hour, provided I can find references in available sources. What does take hours is bringing articles to G, let alone FA., which is why the overwhelming majority of our articles are not at that standard. The justification for fixing them just enough to pass afd, is that they will get improved further in mainspace, as does any other article, , unless they are too obscure to interest anyone. This is the normal and desired method of working on articles in WP.

The problem of giving advice to new users will be greatly simplified when we remove those giving bad advice to new users. To clear that up--to explain to the user, to explain to the reviewer, to rewrite the article because the user is getting pretty frustrated by that point--that;swhat takes the time.

There's a related problem making this all worse: the majority of incoming AfCs are from undeclared promotional editors. If we could deal with them effectively, there would be much less trouble. This will take multiple approaches: one is to get agreement about what articles are not worth rewriting or defending, so we don't have to fight over marginal situations. DGG ( talk ) 19:11, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply, DGG. I must say I don't disagree with your observations, but I'm not sure I can be so optimistic about the efficiency of AFC. Perhaps some 'blue sky' thinking might help? What are the chances of building in a 'second opinion' referral system for the reviewers (not the submitters)? What if a reviewer had a way of quickly alerting an active WikiProject to an article that they could help with? Anne Delong regularly drops a note to WT:WikiProject Medicine by hand, asking for advice or help on a draft she's found. I hope she would tell you how useful that has proved to be. Could we semi-automate that and roll it out to reviewers? What if a reviewer could call on another experienced editor - maybe an admin - to confirm a decision to delete a draft, if it was judged irretrievably lacking in notability (like Dr Ashwin Porwal above). That could potentially short-circuit the "eventually a draft will either get accepted, get speedy deleted for a reason other than G13, get deleted for G13, or submitted so many times without improvement that it will go to MfD, where it will either be deleted or get some attention". There's always REFUND if the submitter found some new sources. Can you think of other ways we could involve more reviewers in the process? Categorise drafts by subject area (like GA?) and invite subject specialists to join in on the reviewing process? --RexxS (talk) 19:38, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

RexxS, Andy and anyone else following here, I didn't actually have any part in the creation of AfC. I registered in 2006 but didn't start actively editing until I retired in 2008. I got interested in NPP when one of my very early articles was wrongly deleted and WereSpielChequers and I were discussing the monumental 70,000 backlog at NPP. AfC was started in 2007 ostensibly as a reaction to the January 2006 rule restricting the creation of articles in mainspace to registered users (proving, BTW, that WP is organic and that future necessary controls are theoretically possible).

DGG and RexxS are both correct from their different angles. I've worked for years now with DGG on the issues surrounding AfC and NPP, where his focus is more on the problems of AfC and mine more on NPP, but the two systems overlap significantly. I also share RexxS's experience in didactics and therefore enjoy every opportunity to facilitate or co-facilitate editathons. We all realise however, how challenging it can be to instruct new users whether on or offline, and to do so without losing one's patience. The fundamental difference between NPP and AfC is that NPP with aroud 1,000 articles a day is front-line triage where AfC with 150 a day is more of a field hospital. I won't say that at NPP we are callous, but the 'patients' at AfC get a bit more LCA - at least until they just become exasperating. A couple of years ago, DGG and I also worked on the project to rewrite all our warning and deletion templates in a move to make them less bitey.

Knowing RexxS's interest in editor education, I was disappointed that he could no come to Esino and share my efforts to convince the WMF that it is time the Foundation agree to investing in engineer time to complete and perfect some core MediaWiki systems that were already under development 5 years ago, but which the Foundation now regrets having not followed through. Unfortunately the Foundation has (or had) a policy of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted but the volunteer community is now sick and tired of cleaning up after their mistakes for them.

The good news is that (tentatively) the foundation is now looking at ways to improve the methods that are used throughout the movement to control the quality of new content, but obviously we can't expect anything to happen overnight. Very basically, the goal is to merge the functions of AfC and NPP and demand higher levels of knowledge and judgement of those who do he reviewing. More detailsaAt recent threads at WT:AfC, and I may be soon offering the Signpost an op-ed on the broader subject. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:11, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

• Since I was pinged...... I still see the one of the problems of draft and AFC is that they are not mainspace and therefore they don't attract the collaborative editing that can make Wikipedia enjoyable. This is exacerbated by AFC patrollers being able to decline articles in effect because in their judgement they would fail AFD. This is the equivalent of making "in my judgement would fail AFD" a speedy deletion criteria and then unbundling deletion to everyone who is autoconfirmed. My solution would be to combine draft, AFC and NPP together and have unpatrolled being "no index", better still make unpatrolled articles only visible to those who are logged in. That way you take the urgency out of New page patrol, reduce the speedy deletion criteria to just G3, G7, G10, G11 and G13, but you can reasonably start requiring every new article to have an independent neutral source before it gets patrolled and is visible to those not logged in. ϢereSpielChequers 10:21, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

As I understood the WMF response to ACCTRIAL -- Kudpung please confirm if I have it right -- they insisted that all new logged-in users must be able to immediately create articles. I do not know whether this implies that the articles must immediately be visible to to everyone, even if not logged in. I hope they did not mean to prohibit limiting new users to creating articles in DRAFT space, where they would be NOINDEX, because this is exactly what Kudpung and I intend to propose.And your suggestion of combining the NPP, AFC, and DRAFT processes is also our intention, though I do not know which of us came up with this obvious idea first. There's also a problem with userspace drafts, where all sorts of junk is hidden. (Personally, I'd eliminate them or automatically move anything that looks like an article to DRAFT space) )

As a separate issue, The community in the past rejected requiring new pages to have a reference, except for BLPs, and not even they are now required to have an independent neutral source--and I do not see how we could enforce that before patrolling, rather than as part of patrolling. DGG ( talk ) 14:46, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

(Also Kudpung) The ticket in question. My experience with Phab indicates that to tell the difference between a WMF veto and a developer veto is not straightforward. Some of the concerns raised would be adequately addressed by an auto-redirect of the added article to AfC space and some may not. Probably the best way would be to establish clear community consensus and then see if the developers are willing - we probably won't land in trouble for merely asking. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:48, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Well, Jo-Jo, and all the others who are perhas now asking rhemselves the same questions, WP:ACTRIAL, to give the Phabricator (Bugzilla) ticket its more widely used code name, was probably one of the most contentious treatments of Wikimedia/MediaWik/WMF policiy ever handed outby the Foundation. The proposal was the result of months of careful reasearch and preparation for the RfC by a team of experienced volunteers whose aim was to address a very critical situation. Although they never retracted their decision, the Foundation ended up being so embarrassed by it, they hatted parts of the discussion at Bugzilla where they had been most rude, condescending, and patronising to the volunteers, and even today refuse to discuss it. At meet ups and conferences, even though there is no one left among the staff who had anything to do with it, mention 'ACTRIAL' and people suddenly have another 'pressing engagement' or a need for a natural function. One just does not unilaterally dismiss one of the most heavily attended RfC in en.Wiki history, and an overwhelming consensus, with 'I'm not doing this bug - I don't see a clear consensus.' The fact of the matter is, that we the community should be interviewing candidates for their jobs in San Fransisco and not the Foundation itself.

5 years further down the line the situation is far worse and exacerbated by the fact that competing factions among he newcomers in the MFF want to start all the research all over again instead of listening to the empirical evidence and taking a heuristic approach. Although it was my own, one of the key comments at Bugzilla was the one I reproduce here to save looking it up and searching for it:

Wikipedia is indeed the encyclopedia anyone can edit. There has however, never been a policy that anyone can create new pages. If the trial delivers the expected results, it will solve a far greater number of perennial problems than simply that of over 1,000 pages per day (80% of all newpages) that have to be deleted through one process or another, and which are largely patrolled by a loose group of extremely inexperienced, and partly very young and/or non native speakers of English - NPP is already widely recognised as a broken process.

I believe there is every urgent reason to implement this trial now without further delay. The consensus was reached by a debate involving around 500 users and a clear majority in favour, and based on examination of the problem rather than straight subjective 'support' or 'oppose' !voting. A further centrally publicised RfC on the actual terms of the trial has also received practically unanimous support.

I realise by now that the WMF may not in favour of this new user right change, but they should accept a decision arrived at by the very kind of consensus that they insist is the way to get things done at Wikipedia. By questioning the authority of the self governing Wikipedia community, any devs who would refuse this request for a trial, will be rocking the very foundation of a pillar of Wikipedia policy.

[...] Rather than protecting a perceived user right for anyone to create new spam, attack, autobio, and copyvio pages, ultimately such action will result in the loss to the project of mature, established users and administrators who dedicate their free time to striving for improvement in the quality of Wikipedia, and its credibility as a universal knowledge base.

As a result, we did lose some mature, established users and administrators over it and what we got were the IEP catastrophe, Orangemoody, and a few other disastrous hiccups requiring monumental clean ups that the volunteers are getting sick and tired of having to do. Hence the two reasons why in spite of its excellent softare, NPP performs badly: the tiny handful experienced patrollers such as I dream of horses and montanabw see it as a never ending battle due to the Foundation having refused to provide enough ammunition, the apathy sets in (don't I know it after spending 60 hours on it this past week) and the rest are newbies who see yet another unrestricted opportunity to play MMORPG and SN with the world's 6th biggest web site site which isn't really a web site a all, but a webserver based reference work.

The fact that in 2006 authority for creation of live articles was removed from IP users clearly demonstrates that Wikipedia is organic, change can be made if and when it is expedient to do so, and now is the time to do it again. And if the community is allowed to have a hand in the development (as ther actually were with Page Curation), we'll get it right. Although the list of tweaks is long, they don't need community consensus (except for the right to patrol new pages), they are mostly minor but together they build a powerful package of measures that will give us all more breathing space, fewer needs for complaints such as the one RexxS as obliged to make at ANI, fewer need for me and DGG to ban another 200 users from NPP, fewer paid editing crises, and above all, fewer good faith newbies being bitten. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:45, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't really NPP much anymore. I mean, I'll inevitably go through a spat of patrolling a lot of pages in the future, and I do patrol pages I see on Huggle, but after a while, it seems futile. The backlog is neverending.  I dream of horses  If you reply here, please ping me by adding {{U|I dream of horses}} to your message  (talk to me) (My edits) @ 01:49, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

That's how I'm starting to feel about deletion/AfD – nearly every day I come across another actor BLP of questionable notability, and I simply can't take them all to AfD (PROD'ing them is usually pointless, because drive-by editors will stop by with a "Hey! I saw this person on TV! So OF COURSE they should have an article!!1!" and DEPROD it. [sigh...]) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:14, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

You know, You can write content or patrol content. There are only so many hours in the day and WP is a very big place. I'm hearing a lot of fatigue (ironically, IJBall and I seem equally tired, but for opposite reasons; I get tired of challenging bad PRODs and bad AfDs) Frankly, I sometimes wonder if there's something to the idea of implementing 30/500 before being allowed to create or move articles. Don't know if that's yet been proposed, but people could earn the right. If they aren't there, such as at a class or an editathon, they can sandbox articles and ask a more experienced editor to do the move. Montanabw^(talk) 05:19, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Montanabw, IJBall, et al, WP:ACTRIAL which we proposed almost exactly 5 years ago to the day, was a lot less radical than that and even came with a set of features to help the new users. As we all know, the Foundation summarily dismissed the massive consensus without even properly investigating what it was in fact all about. With an almost 100% turnover in WMF staff since then, there might be sense in asking the new Foundation line-up to implement it now. The situation requiring it has gotten so much worse since that it certainly doesn't need re-debating.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:38, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

That's funny – I just suggested that unrestricted new article creation should be limited to Extended confirmed users over at WP:VPP! As to Kudpung's point, I'm dimly aware of what happened in the past with ACTRIAL, but I make it a habit to try and avoid thinking too much about the WMF and the ways they fouled up (sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally) the project – it's just too depressing to think about... As for "fatigue", it depends – I am tired out by PROD/AfD, but luckily I still love referencing content and generally sprucing articles up, and I'm going to be entering a busy working period from about now until Christmas, and I suspect simply referencing and article cleanup is all I'm going to have time for over the next few months anyway! --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:46, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

:Unfortunately {{fix linkU|IJBall}}, when we have to go to [[MediaWiki}} for any core software changes, it means going through the WMF. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:17, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Kudpung, one question is what can be done withoutcore software changes. I think we need another round of looking at the AfC templates, just to start. Another is wether we should push for ACTRIAL, or for Draft space Only, or invisible except to registered users, or even just for NoIndex. DGG ( talk ) 14:00, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind me joining in this discussion. I would say that AfC definitely demands a level higher than simply "good enough to avoid being deleted at AfC" before the article is passed- which means that we lose some editors who simply can't be bothered to jump through these hurdles of the AfC catchphrase "needs more third party reliable sources". There's also editors who resubmit drafts that will never be notable enough for a Wikipedia article again and again trying to meet whatever generic template message is given, and so the cycle ends when they give up- but reviewers need to be more willing to simply state outright- "subject X is not notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia at this moment in time, sorry" to avoid disillusioning editors, as AfC is probably their first look at "behind the scenes" Wikipedia. Then there's the case of the reviewers getting tired- as said, editors fall into this culture of demanding too much, and rejecting drafts that are very much AfD-survivable, or just needing a little work or copyediting- like LaMona at that rather saddening ANI thread. So how do we fix this? Talking about combining NPP and AfC (perhaps incorporating ACTRIAL) is very much the ideal thing to do in the long term, but in the meantime, we do need more userfriendly templates. By virtue of the AfC helper script, reviewers often only expand beyond the generic templates with a short comment, and so the end user (the editor) simply sees a wall of rejections saying the same thing. We need to personalise the generic templates and encourage reviewers to leave more meaningful comments. Perhaps within the AfC script, there could be an easy lookup tool, where editors could search notability guidelines from a dropdown list or something, so the newer editors that tend to do AfC reviewing are more accurate, reducing the number of disillusioned editors? Best wishes, jcc (tea and biscuits) 21:37, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Let me focus on where we agree: Certainly we need to say "Subject X is not notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia at this moment in time, sorry" -- unfortunately we need to say this outside of the system, which make no provision for saying the right things directly. I do this by modifying the "decline" template after it has been placed, to change it to a non-routine color so it doesn't look like the usual, and say some variation on "Please do not resubmit the article again until you have some really good 3rd party substantial reliable sources. If the sources aren't there, there is no chance of an article. To get the draft deleted..." and I add something specific to show I've actually read their draft. I've notice many reviewers don't seem to have actually read it, so the contributor takes whatever they say as so much boilerplate to be ignored. (You can see some of the similar necessarily discouraging advice I give to people who ask here after I've deleted their articles). I've learned that if I say the right thing strongly but politely, people do take advice--even if they are a COI editor. So I also agree about templates: after many years struggle, people can in fact add comments, but they don't show up on conspicuously on the draft, and they don't show up at all on the usertalk.

But I do not agree about the quality necessary of a submitted article, because quality is improved best in mainspace--there are many editors, including myself, who would rather fix articles than write them. But the standard I use for accepting is in fact much more than the minimum--at least about notability,I doubt more than 1 or 2 of my acceptances have ever been deleted. What I don't insist on is categories or reference format or section headings or sufficient links, because I know for sure that there are hundreds of editors who like adding these things--and they can mostly do it better than I, and some of it is rather hard to teach except by example. DGG ( talk ) 23:55, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

The future of NPP

(to all those just joining this thread, please see also #AFC redux above - all of it.)

There must be some reason for the sudden huge and steady increase in the NPP backlog over the past few weeks:

NPP backlog July, Aug, Sep 2016

It's my assumption that the regulars have gotten fed up of being the only regulars. SwisterTwister has also significantly reduced his patrolling. The thing is, this just can't go on; in a few weeks we will be up to the levels that precipitated Scottywong, The Blade of the Northern Lights, and me to launch WP:ACTRIAL as the only (what we thought at the time) way to limit the deluge of thoroughly inappropriate new articles, thus giving patrollers time to breathe, on the premise that serious contributors would not be discouraged by having to wait 10 edits and 4 days to publish , or going through the non-indexed Draft namespace from the Article Wizard (or the new landing page that was promised), and trolls and spamers would think again before wasting their own (and their client's) time

However, we are having to address this problem on three clearly defined fronts: 1) the apathy towards wanting to work at NPP, 2) the low quality of the work of many of those who still do it. If we could could convince the community to agree to a merge of AfC (which also has its problems) and NPP, we might get more patrolers as a result; and 3) The reluctance of the WMF to understand the damage that is being done to the encyclopedia. That said, I'm more than convinced that a suitably worded lobby to the newly formed Foundation may make them rethink WP:ACTRIAL which after all was one of the most heavily subscribed debates in Wiki history and an overwhelmingly clear consensus. Please take a moment to read this fairly recent thread and let me have your thoughts because I'm getting tired of being practically the only motor behind these initiatives and as you can see from the current related RfC, in spite of my efforts, I sometimes get things wrong.

It's really time we got the WMF to finally engage with en.Wiki because in spite of my talks with Quiddity in Italy and the exchange on his Foundation talk page, and the 1-hour Skype with someone in the Foundation, to all intents and purposes, it appears that the WMF is still prioritizing non urgent gadgets instead of addressing the quality that Wikipedia tries to base its reputation on (you can't watch UK television these days without someone commenting negatively about Wikipedia).

What we need right now is that landing page Jorm was working on, it would have saved all the bad faith that I'm getting slammed with from some of your Arbcom colleagues and a lot of very time consuming hard work. So I'm pinging Robert McClenon, MER-C, Esquivalience, Boing! said Zebedee, and vQuakr for their information, and I'm also pinging Mdennis (WMF) who usually has a kindly ear for my concerns and is best placed to find out who is ultimately responsible in SF for pushing things forward. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:49, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Head, meet brick wall. While those responsible for this mess have been moved on and the WMF is starting to be (at least minimally) responsive to community concerns, three things remain true:

1. the WMF is still full of naive, idealistic dreamers, and/or people who have difficulty understanding the concept of encyclopedia (this being a recent example);
2. there are one-way community "liaisons" who do not effectively communicate our concerns to the WMF (if at all); and
3. there's 10 years of technical debt, neglect and software rot to catch up on (our CAPTCHA is totally broken, for instance).

Yes, I agree both extended confirmation for article creation and a landing page are warranted. It's proactive, the best form of abuse prevention. But I'm afraid we'll have to wait in line with everyone else -- I'll propose this at this year's Community Wishlist survey... along with five or more other things. My suggestion is to bypass the WMF whenever possible -- ACTRIAL is something we can do with an abuse filter or MediaWiki:Titleblacklist. MER-C 11:23, 19 September 2016 (UTC) Added reference to MediaWiki:Titleblacklist. MER-C 13:50, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

• Hi Kudpung. Having seen your impassioned plea, I went over to Special:NewPagesFeed, but I couldn't access the Page Curation tool at all. When I click on the "Review" button, all I get is the article with no tool in the right-hand side bar, and no apparent way to mark it as reviewed, although it can be done manually via the [Mark this page as patrolled] link at the bottom and clicking that does seem to remove the page from Special:NewPagesFeed. However, that link doesn't appear on all the pages in the feed, especially the older articles. For example, Montell Cozart shows up on the feed, if set to show oldest first. It was created on 10 June 2016‎. Its logs show it as neither patrolled nor reviewed. It also fails to display [Mark this page as patrolled]. But it was tagged for clean up several months ago and even visited by an administrator who corrected a typo [6]. So it was clearly de facto patrolled. I'm wondering if that backlog list is being artificially inflated by these instances and if other editors are also experiencing difficulty accessing the page curation tool, which may make them decide to just give up. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:28, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

• @Voceditenore: Just a thought, is the "Curate this article" link present in tools? (see right) -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 11:47, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

  

I don't know how I can help you there, Voce, it works perfectly for me (OSX 10.11.6, FireFox 48.0.1). In fact, ironically, it's one of the few things dished up by the groaning, creaking, steam and fire spitting WMF servers that actually takes less than nearly a minute to load.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:53, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

• Kudpung and Samtar, right after I wrote the above, the Curation tool bar on the right of the article did begin magically appearing again. But on Montell Cozart "Curate this article" does not appear under the "Tools" listing at the left, and doesn't appear on newer articles either, e.g. Piano Trio No. 2 (Schumann). Voceditenore (talk) 12:06, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

  The 'Curate this article' in the left column has been missing since the NPP RfC began. Assuming bad faith as I always do, I imagine it was removed by someone who is determined to keep everyone away from the Page Curation system... Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:27, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Kudpung, the key numbers are 1/ the proportion of new pages from non-autocpatrolled editors that do make it stably into WP and 2/the proportion of new pages from non-autopatrolled editors that could possibly make it into WP; this could be higher because not all rescuable articles are worked on, but might be lower, if not all hopeless articles are actually deleted. I cannot immediate see a way to measure the first except to take a snapshot manually and look at in a few weeks later,but there ay be a possibility for a report. To measure the 2nd obviously takes guesswork.

I looked at the first measurement about 6 years ago,and it was about 50%:2000 articles a day, half kep thalf deleted one way or another. (from memory--I'll try to find my actual data) . I can do a guess at the 2nd, and cross check it against other people's guesses.

My guess is that the workload is not higher than it was then. AfC is rarely more than 100 article a day, and I think considerably more than half get rejected.

What takes time is not going through the list--its the auxiliary work that this produces--dealing with the good faith authors, following up on the likely sockpuppets, checking that speedies and prods get deleted, taking articles to afd and arguing them there.

We need to get more people. I wouldn't advise the existing patrollers do much more work themselves, because if one does to much, then the extreme impatience at dealing with them leads to errors; that was SwisterTwister's problem, and is why he was requested (tho not required) to stop patrolling. I make the same sort of mistakes myself if I do much at a time. There's not really any technical solution that will completely solve the problem--the irremediably bad articles still need to be removed andthe removal explained; the bad but not hopeless ones need to be improved and corrected, which is much harder. We've had to delete thousands of articles on potential encyclopedic topics because no one capable of doing the necessary rewriting wanted to do it. But there are man small changes, some within our power, some requiring the WMF, that can improve it.

I understand why its not a priority for the WMF. The WMF is not directly concerned with the content of the encyclopedia , nor should they be. Their role is to improve the basic functionality of the site, with emphasis on the parts outsiders see. infrastructure that people see. they do not fundamentally care about whether good or bad content goes into the encyclopedia. But, fortunately, the do care that the community of users grows and the size & reach of the encyclopedia increases , and the only way to do that is to encourage people who will write and improve good articles, and stay with us for long periods. This does require making their work easier and more satisfying, and its here that we need to make the appeal.

But we also need to see what we can do without them. DGG ( talk ) 14:29, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

As several of my close colleagues know, I would (and frankly I believe a lot of others would too) patrol again but, if anyone else has actually noticed, WP recently has become quite heated, not simply because of one thing or another, but various things, and this has noticeably caused a lot of motivation-removal; I've even noticed longtime or otherwise experienced users exiting because of it; unfortunately what happens (something we'll all know), and it currently has, is that new users with no knowledgeable experiences, are then patrolling. As I mentioned with the last thread about this, we will certainly get through it, and fortunately there's a number of users, including DGG and myself, that specifically go through patrols to ensure quality. Something that would be beneficial by the WMF is to at least improve the overall WMF environment, fixing the longtime troubles such as the continuously overheated people, to quote DGG "they do care that the community of users grows and the size & reach of the encyclopedia increases" but I believe this would best happen if they ensured the beneficial people stay, and are not affected by the unpleasant environment caused by uncooperative people that come (because if an excessive number of beneficial people go, then it certainly affects the encyclopedia deeply and overall). SwisterTwister talk 17:18, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

• One of the causes may be that the number of articles created is increasing, while the rate of patrolling may stay relatively constant. With Wikipedia Zero and other initiatives to increase Internet usage in the developing world, there will be more users and more article creators. But this theory may not hold, as the rate of new articles outpaces the growth of notable topics.

But currently, NPP is a relatively dysfunctional system compared to other review systems. The work is repetitive; without a good system in place (such as an AfC-like system where reviewers communicate with users), all NPP boils down to is the dichotomy of delete or don't delete. It gets tiring after a while, and the 99% of articles whose creators ignore instructions are not particularly inspiring.The instructions are vague: would many serious newcomers understand the hodgepodge that is "Content that violates any copyrights..." yada yada yada? Our article creation system attracts the newcomers who don't pay attention to instructions.

We can easily improve this system; if we subject new article creators to a review process based on feedback that they have to respond to if they want their article to be "published", then I am confident that our backlog will not only be cut, but populated by newcomers that actually care about what they're writing. I can assure that a fully-staffed team of programmers can develop such a system to a stable condition in less than a year. The WMF software department, despite solid funding, more than many other software non-profits that can actually develop more software that furthers their mission (e.g., the Internet Archive actually improved the interface of their website and grown their Wayback Machine considerably with $5M), primarily focuses on projects that do nothing to further the encyclopedia, almost like they are going to sell the projects they create. For example, 12 years to develop a system that provides only marginal benefits to newcomers; a year on the Knowledge Engine (trying to compete with Google?), and the list goes on and on. Yet, MediaWiki is outdated (I'd rather use Subversion or even CVS to maintain a wiki!), examples including no configuration panel on a stock installation, and the complicated process to swap articles; Wikipedia's interface looks like it comes from 2006. Also, many components use questionable coding practices (e.g., I'm not sure now, but AbuseFilter initally at least forwent using a parser generator and included its own homebrew parser for its own domain-specific language). In fact, NPP is not the only technical issue that plagues Wikipedia. As an example, look how grainy this equation looks: $O(g(n))=\{f(n):\exists c\,\exists m\,\forall n>m:f(n)<cg(n)\}$.

In fact, it is embarrassing for the most widely-used encyclopedia to give such vague instructions to new article writers, and for patrollers to use such outdated tools. Until the WMF can develop better technology, or accept that technology can be created if they refuse to create it, the backlog may keep growing. — Esquivalience (talk) 01:40, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Since I was pinged, I will comment. I will start with a question. There continues to be mention of somehow combining AFC and NPP. I don't really understand what is meant by that. AFC and NPP are different, although partly overlapping, functions. AFC is in draft space, while NPP is in all spaces, primarily in article space. Would combining mean that the option of taking drafts through review in draft space would be lost, and that drafts would be in mainspace? The merger talk presumably doesn't just mean merging of the two groups of volunteers, which already overlap. What is meant by combining AFC and NPP?

I know what some wrong answers are to a growing backlog at NPP. One is to offer NPP as a way for new editors to gain experience with Wikipedia and work off the backlog. Another is to lower the standards of quality for articles in order to work off the backlog. Another is to worry too much about biting the newcomers; unfortunately, a large percentage of those newcomers who wish to add new articles (rather than contributing to existing articles) need to be bitten. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:09, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

• I'll address a couple of the many valid points made by Esquivalience, and DGG (whose comments are perfectly accurate):

1. 'The WMF is not directly concerned with the content of the encyclopedia', but it should be very concerned in the quality of the content and how it is controlled and maintained, The donations depend on it. That money should be being spent on developments to do this especially where Wikipedia is exponentially becoming a platform for paid editors at the expense of our volunteer time.
2. Instructions to new article creators: This embarrassing absence is indeed the greatest enigma of all time during Wikipedia's history. What most people who joined Wikipedia post-2011 ACTRIAL are not aware of however, is that development of the Page Curation system was only half of the project. In 2011 an excellent landing page for new uses was concurrently being developed by the WMF that would have filled that gaping hole and completed the triangle, replacing Article Wizard, replacing AfC, and giving the regular editing community something to talk about which would have resulted in the same vibrant, coherent, collaboration that AfC has among its reviewers and more patrollers. Kaldari can tell us why that project was quietly shelved and why he NPP issues described on the recently created list at Wikipedia:Page Curation/Suggested improvements were not completed.

   @Kudpung: Article Creation Workflow (ACW) was shelved for a couple of reasons. First, we wanted to concentrate on finishing the PageTriage Extension (aka Page Curation) which was considered a higher priority. We only had a limited amount of time to complete both of these projects, since my team (Editor Engagement) was slated to start working on Echo (aka Notifications) at the start of Q1 FY2012 (July 2012). We really, really didn't want to leave both of the projects (ACW and Page Curation) unfinished, so we concentrated on finishing Page Curation and never finished ACW. The other reason we didn't finished ACW is that there was talk in the community of creating a Drafts namespace, and this would have required significant refactoring of the ACW workflow (See Article Creation Workflow diagram). As it turns out, the community did decide to create a Drafts namespace the next year, so this was probably a good decision in retrospect. As for why the WMF has never revisited Page Curation or ACW, I think it basically boils down to limited resources and the fact that neither of these tools scale easily to multiple wikis (since they are tied to wiki-specific workflows). Kaldari (talk) 03:04, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

3. NPP does not actually 'boil down to a dichotomy of delete or don't delete.' That's the state it's in however, due to the lack of competency of those who are allowed to do it without control or supervision. In the period covered by the graph above, I have been patrolling as often as possible, for 2 or 3 hours a day and within the first few minutes of every session I already have to revert several mis-taggings, and 'friendly' ban at least one newbie from patrolling. Unfortunately, we can't even get the WMF to include in the New Page Feed header something like: If you are new to Wikipedia, please do not patrol new pages until you have significantly more experience. Instead, please consider a simpler task such as reverting obvious vandalism, and oddly there are still plenty of volunteers who still firmly believe that NPP should be the experimental ground for all wannabe maintenance workers.
4. What it does boil down to and which will eventually drive seasoned editors away for good, are the relentless accusations - sometimes even from holders of high office (as Arbcom) - that people like me and DGG don't know what we're talking about. Such detractors have never done a proper stint at NPP. They've looked at it but they do not have any experience that holds a candle to that of established editors who have done 1,000s of patrols over many years.
5. Statistics: The WMF considers itself primarily as a web app and server company and and like all IT people, it bases all its working knowledge on stats under the premise that if there are no stats for it, it doesn't exist. Hence the dichotomy: stats vs. empirical experience. Fortunately and miraculously, the decision to go ahead with Page Curation was based on findings drawn from live streamed NPP sessions by experienced patrollers to an audience of very senior WMF staff.
6. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit referred to the contributing of content; it was never implied that no conditions can be imposed on how and when that content can be published; indeed in 2006 the WMF removed the right from IPs to create articles, thus proving that the project is organic, which contradicts their refusal to implement ACTRIAL.
7. Within the WMF, nobody appears to accept responsibility. They overlap each other's work but no one, including the three or four 'community liason officers' can tell us who is really in charge, and that's why this issue of encyclopedic quality is sufficiently critical to involve the CEO, and Ryan Kaldari who still knows all about mw:Extension:ArticleCreationWorkflow (the landing page project). Nick Wilson was being of some help but he appears to have stopped responding.
8. In the absence of any help from the Foundation, MER-C's suggestion to bypass the WMF may become the option. Otherwise within less than five years Wikipedia will suffer the same fate as MySpace while the WMF is complacently telling itself 'it will never happen to us'.

Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:34, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

#3: You don't need the WMF to put that in the header. Any admin can do it at MediaWiki:Newpages-summary. (Or MediaWiki:Pagetriage-welcome for the curation tool version.) —Cryptic 07:07, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Bad as we are, still the enWP has much stricter rules for quality (including notability, documentation, and freedom from promotionalism) than almost all other WPs. Rgwue doesn't bother the WMF, so why should we expect them to care about our problems in these areas? I've consistently advised that we should do what we can on our own. To the extent we ask for something ,it should be the tools for doing additional things on our own. The principle of the entire system is that people in informal groups will do things on their own, and that the central facilities are only a service. DGG ( talk ) 08:05, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that the WMF likes to interefere when things don't go their way. If a volunteer adds some code, for example, that implements proper quality control to Common.js, the WMF will quite possibly nuke the page out of existence, or implement Superprotect again. The only problem is: the WMF has little organization into a unified organization so while a part of the WMF won't care about what happens to the encyclopedia, another part will overreact. — Esquivalience (talk) 11:55, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

@Kudpung: Hi, I haven't heard from you in a while, hence my quietness. I see you pinged my volunteer account above, which explains why I didn't get a notification for that edit (I don't always check that account's email daily). I'll take some time now to read the above discussion and links. Let me know what other pages I should be looking at? Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 20:48, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

The problem is, Nick, and which has precipitated all the ensuing discussions on en.Wiki, that we are all still waiting since 10 August for you to reply on your MediaWiki account talk page at mw:Topic on User talk:Quiddity (WMF) and act on it or let us know who is, or should be, responsible for the immediate topic under discussion, and for feedback from Jonathan Morgan WMF (Jtmorgan) who called me on Skype to discussed these issues for an hour nearly two months ago. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:16, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

@Kudpung: Ah, sorry, I think we both misunderstood who was going to take the next step. You had mentioned "probably the easiest thing to do would be for me to send you my minutes of that meeting." so I was waiting for that, in order to get clarity on what you (and everyone you had consulted) wanted in your own words (rather than from just Jonathan's notes, which I have read), so that I could then continue. I should've pinged you soon afterwards, when I didn't hear back; sorry. Please do email them to me (or share however desired).

You said at Wikimania that you primarily wanted: (1) to get the user-rights sorted out, and (2) to adjust the list of options in the curation toolbar, so that they more closely match the list of options that Twinkle provides - please also send me that list, if you've compiled it now. (3) You did also say that wou'd be requesting 1 or 2 small tweaks to the general PageTriage software - I now see you've compiled a massive list at Wikipedia:Page Curation/Suggested improvements. Egads. Can you prioritize the top 3-5 items that would have the most benefit for everyone? Then we can start creating phabricator tasks for those at least, and getting exact details where missing. Thanks!

As Cryptic suggests above, one good and immediate step would be to amend the MediaWiki:Pagetriage-welcome message, giving clearer instructions/guidance/warning/etc at the top of the feed. You or any admin can do that.

As suggested above, some part(s) of this might make a good candidate for the m:2016 Community Wishlist Survey, as long as it is very clearly defined, whilst also applicable to all language projects. (They'll be asking for the proposals in November, and I can probably help you draft something before then, if desired?) Those additional Article Creation Workflow/Landing Page details look particlarly intriguing. Kaldari's reply above is also helpful to know.

In the meantime, I wonder if we could make the link to the Article Wizard more prominent (or even unavoidable?) in MediaWiki:Newarticletext (as seen at e.g. example redlink foo) - It's currently linked at the end of the 3rd line, which seems very obscure...

Re: #7 above, the Collaboration team is the logical inheritor of the PageTriage extension, along with 6 or 7 other extensions, and a large number of core features. That's the team who requested the research-interview that you participated in! Sadly there are only 3.5 developers on the team, and a few thousands tasks (including many epic/herculean tasks) to work on. They're currently working on mw:Notifications and mw:Edit Review Improvements - the latter (what the interview with you was intended to focus on) is aimed at helping all types of RecentChange patrollers, and editor-mentors in particular (i.e. experienced editors who want to find (separate out) the newcomers who are making good faith edits that are problematic - people that need and will benefit from friendly mentoring) - I hope this will give everyone who collaborates on the possible changes, a clearer understanding of how we can improve both this more general aspect of reviewing all edits, as well as the more specific use-case of reviewing new pages, and thereby enable more comprehensive work on that, in the future.

Best wishes, Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 23:08, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Quiddity (WMF), the massive list at Wikipedia:Page Curation/Suggested improvements was again my initiative after one user simply created the blank page without attempting to expand on his initiative or to even make the page visible anywhere. The list is nothing more than a compilation of all the items that various users have brought up which are mainly things that the WMF 'forgot' to do during the development, some things which neither of us thought about at the time but which have revealed themselves through use of the system as being essential, ans some items which the Foundation's messenger unilaterally decided were not sufficiently important to pass on. I do realise that in making that list I will be accused by some yet again of running a one-man show, not involving 'a larger community' and creating more 'idle talk' (per Robert McClenon who I nevertheless invited along), but someone has to prime the pump to get it it started.

I'll try to make a short list for you, and I'll send you (again at the risk of being accused of running a private cabal) the minutes of the Skype meeting with Jonathan. Perhaps it would also be good if some people here would also look at that list and comment on it - the only person who has really taken an active interest in it so far is WereSpielChequers who at the time was also one of the active forces in our community work group that convinced Erik Möller in 2011 following the ACTRIAL kerfuffle to get the Page Curation / Landing page developed. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:18, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I haven't read all of the above, but I have two ideas about this: I think it would be worth giving serious consideration to re-proposing ACTRIAL. Most of those in the WMF who rejected it have moved on, and I think there is less of a "increase editor numbers at any cost" attitude there now.

But I believe there is something we could do locally. Much of the new-page rubbish comes from newbies who are not malicious or incompetent, but simply do not understand what an encyclopedia is for. There are two main classes: those who think it is a social-networking site and want to write about themselves, and those who think it is a free notice-board for promoting their company, good cause or tiddlywinks club. A suitably-worded notice on the sign-up page, explaining what Wikipedia is for and what it is not for, might deter a proportion of those, and I understand that MediaWiki:Signupstart could be edited by any admin to provide such a notice.

It would need an RFC to agree to do that, and no doubt a long argument to agree wording; but I think this is a practicable way to make some reduction in the torrent of no-hope articles. JohnCD (talk) 22:30, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

The set of newbies who utterly defy instructions are not the newbies who will follow whatever is on the signup page. Just like until I added a dashed-line notice, there were still numerous NOTNOW nominations; or the users that defy the instructions for new pages patrolling. — Esquivalience (talk) 01:38, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with User:Esquivalience that no signup page or landing page or whatever you want to call it will deter many of the completely clueless good-faith new editors (let alone the bad-faith editors) who have no idea what an encyclopedia is. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:58, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

No, many would not be deterred, but if even a quarter of them were that would make a significant reduction in the NPP/CSD workload, including time spent explaining to aggrieved newbies why the "article" they have put a lot of work into never had a chance, because Wikipedia is not for what they want to do. JohnCD (talk) 08:48, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

• Within seconds of JohnCD mentioning the page at MediaWiki:Signupstart, it was deleted. Does this tell s something? And if so, what? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:38, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
  • It was actually deleted almost a year ago. It doesn't seem to be used anymore in any case. If you go to log out and go to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CreateAccount&uselang=qqx (and compare it to what it looks like without the uselang=qqx) you'll be able to see the MediaWiki namespace strings that currently get used for it. Whoops, no, it just defaults blank, and I overlooked it in the qqx view. —Cryptic 23:04, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Restated Question: What Is the So-Called Merger of NPP and AFC

I haven't yet gotten an answer to my question. Some editors continue to talk about the planned merger of AFC and NPP, but I haven't yet gotten a statement as to what that will involve. Is that because the talk of the merger is just idle talk that hasn't been definitized, or why haven't I gotten an answer? If it is just idle talk, then maybe it shouldn't be referred to as a plan or anything like that, but just as idle talk. If there really is a plan, what is it? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:58, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

It's not idle talk, and it's something that has been under serious consideration for quite a long time. However, like all major restructuring at Wikipedia, one has to make baby steps. The current RfC to first make patroller permission a policy is one of those steps. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:14, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

User:DGG, User:Kudpung - I hear and read that it is not just idle talk, and that it has been under serious consideration for a long time. However, when I see the comment that baby steps must be taken first, and I do not see a description of what the overall plan is, I become cynical (especially since I know that the primary interest of the WMF is increasing its donations and increasing its cash rather than the actual service of the existing communities such as the English Wikipedia). I haven't gotten an answer to what the ultimate plan is about the merger. Will AFC articles still go in draft space and NPP mostly be in article space? If so, what is meant by the merger? Where is the RFC? What are any other steps? What is the overall plan? As long as a plan is mentioned, in a way that seems to me intended to sound grandiose, I will consider it to be idle talk unless I can see at least parts of the plan. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:17, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Robert, most of all the best ideas in the history of mankind began as idle talk or a shoebox with wires coming out of it in someone's dad's garage becoming the world's richest company. Dismissing what gets discussed as simply 'idle' just because you are not in the loop, is, well, dismissive - we've kept you in the loop with a ping because we considered you to be one of the people who might have had something positive to offer.

Some of us have been working on this project on-and-off for five (5) years and you can be sure that the most interested and motivated parties will be invited to help draft an RfC proposal statement as soon as we know what we are going to propose and to what extent we can ask for any required coding to be done by those who are paid to it. The disadvantage with our consensus gathering system is that it takes 30 days for each successive proposal - when one fails, we try the next one. It's well known that RfCs that try to discuss too many issues or options in one sitting wind up way off topic and die out without even reaching a formal closure. As you can see from the current RfC, very typically those who won't make suggestions are happy to heckle from the sidelines and make condescending remarks about those who work in the background in smaller task forces without all the background noise.

This quadriga: AfC—Draft—NPP—Landing page is going to be, hopefully, one of the best advances in quality control since Wikipedia's creation, and because all the while we have to appease those who are resistant to change, it won't be rushed Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:25, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

I understand that often idle talk does come to fruition. I have seen the original RFC, which will authorize standards for New Page Patrollers, and which hasn't yet been formally closed. However, from my standpoint, I am just being told that something good will happen, and it appears that no one wants to tell me or can tell me more than that something good will happen. It isn't obvious to me how a merger of AFC or NPP will address the fact that both are understaffed, and both are criticized from both sides. If you ask me to expect great things in the future, please in turn expect me to be cynical and to think that I am being made empty promises and expected to rely on them. Or please answer my specific questions rather than just referring to a plan that cannot be stated in detail. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:21, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

the basic idea is that people creating new articles will be directed to a landing page, and then to one of two appropriate places, depending on whether they are new editors. Those needing to work in draft will be told that. Approval from draft and approval from direct creation we be unified, and organized in such as way that patrollers can focus on their areas of interest, and so their work can be audited. There will not be much less work overall (except for adding the absurd cycles of resubmission at AfC), but the work will be comprehensible and rational, and will try to involve the larger community. . As for the details, good ideas will be very welcome. DGG ( talk ) 13:55, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for providing an explanation rather than more empty talk. Does this mean that new editors will be sent to work in draft? You mention adding "the absurd cycles of resubmission at AfC". Are you implying that those cycles are absurd because the AFC reviewers are too demanding, or because new SPA editors persist in trying to resubmit over and over? What thoughts are there so far about how the larger community will be involved? What forum is the place for further discussion? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:24, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

This is the link again (already posted above), Robert, to the WMF project that was shelved which was the other half of the Page Curation / Landing page project. Please check it out. Together, they would have solved not only the technical problems of quality control and made AfC redundant, but in doing so would have saved Wikipedia's reputation which by now is on a downward spiral. Community engagement rests on those who are prepared to get involved instead of criticising those who are at least trying to do something. At present, other than perhaps WT:NPP (or a dedicated sub page of it) there is no official forum for discussing these issues. Again, a user initiative could create one - it's time we gave DGG his talk page back - but earlier efforts to involve the 'larger community' have failed. Unlike AfC, New Page Patrolers are largely incommunicative. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:58, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Idle talk centre

A neutral, centralised discussion area is being currently created for the idle talk where only those who are truly actively concerned with improvements to the way new pages are handled at both AfC and NPP can sign up for the action. A link will shortly be posted. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:47, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

• A dedicated venue for combined discussion about NPP & AfC where a work group is also proposed has been created. See: Wikipedia:The future of NPP and AfC --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:51, 24 September 2016 (UTC)