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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. - Mailer Diablo 22:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Abandonia_Reloaded

[edit]

This article, as I've stated again and again, seems to not be so much an encyclopedia article as it is a slight bit of a vanity article by the fans of this website. This website has gained a few awards from a site known as DaFastLane, but I haven't been able to locate any information about DaFastLane on Wikipedia (aside from the article proposed for deletion here) or Google (a few hits), and it isn't listed on Alexa. They won five awards in one year, but that does not yet qualify them for notability under WP:WEB, which no other eligibility requirements are met on either.

Until they win these DaFastLane awards again next year, or until they satisfy the requirements another way, I feel it's safe to say that the article deserves deletion. Sephylight 02:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - The actual Alexa rank seems to be 115,037 (as opposed to in the 14000s for Abandonia). I'm not sure it qualifies as "hugely popular", or notable. --Brianyoumans 04:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Websites-related deletions. -- the wub "?!" 11:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Not everything can be measured by an Alexa ranking, Abandonia Reloaded is a site dedicated to freeware games which is in itself a niche market, it is one of the biggest sites in his class providing FREE valuable content to it's visitors through the means of reviews and screenshots. I think this point alone justifies to have Abandonia Reloaded as it's own article. Also even though it might be written by fans (as I imagine is the case for most articles on wikipedia) of the site, the article is written from a neutral point of view. Braindead1 20:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge - Still, there are standards for what is notable and what isn't, and the site in question hasn't qualified yet under those standards. Merge it with Abandonia
  • Keep - While the site isn't the most popular by Alexa rankings, it is important to note that the site has gone from being completely unknown to achieve an Alexa rank of 114,065 (as of writing) in just a little over a year. Which in itself is quite the feat, and even though the site was created by four people who originated from Abandonia, the two sites are completely different and cater to completely different groups of net-users. Which goes to show that AR has managed to make a name for itself. Another point is that there wasn't really a Freeware center, before AR was created. Generally you had six options before, if you wanted a freeware game, and they were all pretty limited. You could either go to the AGS community or AGI community and get adventure games, go to RPG Maker and get RPGs, go to the Game Maker community and locate games that are mostly puzzle oriented, go to HOTU and try to locate the freeware games in the sea of abandonware (which are mostly AGS, AGI and RPG Maker games), or you could type "freeware" in Google and hope that you would find something you liked after several hours of tiresome searching. AR is truly the first site to gather all freeware games on one site, regardless of age, engine and genre. And due to that diversity the site has active producers with experience from game making in AGS, AGI, Game Maker, as well as independent producers who created their own games from scratch. And while HOTU does have a mix of freeware too, that site isn't revolving around such games. AR is the only site that focuses solely on showcasing these games, and a lot of effort goes into showcasing each game as best as possible, including high-quality banners. Abandonia Reloaded also focuses on helping people create their own games, using whatever engine they themselves want to use (or create). As such, I think the site is worthy to have its own page on Wikipedia. Tom Henrik
  • Keep - It's difficult to measure anything's notability merely through awards or publications, or by statistics. In fact, WP:WEB clearly states that it is meant as a guideline, not as an absolute. The discussion linked to that guideline also shows that even amongst the more dedicated editors, there is no clear consensus on what constitutes notability. Abandonia: Reloaded is a site that is a part of a niche as it is dedicated to showcasing freeware productions, and it is also part of a growing movement to bring these productions to the general populace. The purpose of Abandonia Reloaded, and the purpose of this Wiki article on Abandonia Reloaded is not to advertise or promote traffic (AR is not a commercial endeavor), but rather to educate and inform; which, as I understand it, is the purpose of Wikipedia itself. Allow the editors to revise the article to prevent any tone issues, and expand it so that it may even better fulfill that purpose. Deletion is unnecessary, and considering the site's growth in the last year (from 440,000 to 114,000 in Alexa ranking since January, and from 115,000 to 114,000 in the last month alone), it would likely just be reinstated once this question of ranking is less of an issue, in any case. Taikara 21:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - As per what Taikara said. Guidelines are guidelines, not specific rules. --Abi79 06:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Considering that Abandonia Reloaded has been online for a year and 3 months thus far and to grow that much during that time surely shows a demand for what is being offered. Considering that the site continues to grow and is getting increased views as time is progressing also adds to the fact that the entry should stay. The wiki entry as Taikara has stated is more to educate and inform than to advertise. The wiki will be expanded as time progresses, and the rule that is being expressed for deletion as has been said, is more a guideline than anything and with all the site has managed to accomplish in such a short time, definitely think it deserves it's own entry.DeathDude 19:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is perhaps notable that the above comment is DeathDude's first and only edit to Wikipedia, and that Taikara and Tom Henrik have edited this discussion, the article itself, and nowhere else.Brianyoumans 01:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is also perhaps notable that Wikipedia is an open project that claims an attitude of anti-elitism in editing. Therefore, it should not matter that I (or my fellow discussion contributors) have edited only one article, or offered my opinion in only one article of deletion debate. However, if it would somehow give my opinion more "power" (though by the definition of anti-elitism, it shouldn't), I can easily copy edit and/or expand other articles (and in fact, I already have). However, in my (apparently less valuable) opinion, it seems that if people care enough about the article to contribute to the discussion regarding its potential deletion, then those opinions should not be completely ignored due to lack of prolificness. Taikara 06:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've been spending some time reading over the guidelines and principles of Wikipedia, and as Taikara has mentioned, anti-elitism is not an idea that Wikipedia (or it's founder, Jimbo Wales) support. Jimbo has the only set principles for how to operate Wikipedia in his user page, and it says, amongst other things: "Newcomers are always to be welcomed. There must be no cabal, there must be no elites, there must be no hierarchy or structure which gets in the way of this openness to newcomers." By giving our oppinions lesser value, because we are new to the project is completely against the open-ness and ideology of Wikipedia. And just for reference, just like Taikara, I have been active in other articles in the past, but I wasn't registered then - so you'll have to use my IP if you want a list. But, yes, this is the only discussion I have attended, because I feel that, for once, I have something to contribute to the discussion at hand. Tom Henrik 12:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - There're several reasons why this page's not meeting the requirements, even though they've been claimed to be true.

For one, those so-called five awards don't belong to Reloaded. They belong mostly to a person, not a site, that person being Kosta, for the work and effort he's put in Abandonia. It's quite pathetic that Reloaded calls his awards as theirs and use them to claim rights on a page on here. The only award that does go to the site, is only a nomination, not an actual award. It needs to be mentioned that for the DaFastLane Awards, anybody can nominate anybody, and the people from Reloaded've all nominated Reloaded for as many things as they could, of which this one got pulled through. Same goes with that "Most helpful scener" award. As Abandonware's spread out over multiple communities, the scener who can have most people vote for him, will win that one, even though I can name ten sceners that're far more helpful, and that's just from one community. The only person that actually's an established value in the scene, is Kosta, who did deserve the awards he got. Those still aren't awards for Reloaded, but for Kosta. In other words, all those so-called awards're self-induced by Reloaded itself, which I don't think will make them count at all.

Another is their so-called claim to be the first site dedicated to freeware games. I don't know where they got that, and everybody knows that's a lie. They even have affiliates on their main page, linking to other freeware sites that've been 'round far longer, so either they don't know their own site or they're lying badly 'bout that.

Yet another thing, which goes hand in hand with the previous part, but seems to've been used as a separate reason, is that they claim that before Reloaded, you had to search the AGS, AGI and Gamemaker communities, and aside from that, using Google. So far, they've pretty much only used the AGS community, so that's been untrue, plus, if they think that's the only way to find freeware games, it just shows the site won't live long enough to become notable, as those that run it show they don't understand what they're focusing on. There are far more ways to get to freeware than just those three, and that's the very basics that should be known to run such a site for a longer period of time.

As far as the notability goes, they have a bit of a point. I know some of my friends know that site, and I know a few freeware game developers that've been in touch with them, and they all think the site provides lowest-quality information (up to the point that some games' information's all in Engrish) and's generally an insult to both the developers as to the games themselves, so they do know the site, but prefer to stay as far away from it as possible. Also, those freeware game developers they did get in touch with, were mostly, if not all, brought in touch with that site by a member they kicked out a long time ago, and although they haven't been in touch with any of those freeware developers, they do seem to claim his work as theirs whenever they can.

Another thing you can notice if you dig around on their and Abandonia's forums, is that they have a high tendency to mob whenever something or somebody has an opinion that goes against them. It's already happening on here, and you can be sure they'll bring more of their croonies in to increase the number of people that back their view up, but always just say the same thing (like Deathdude). So be aware of that. You might see five-six voices here, but they're still just one and a couple of puppets. --195.144.90.5 13:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It may or may not be relevant, but the IP of the above poster matches the IP of the mentioned member who was "kicked out", and it seems like more of a personal rant than an attempt to address the issue at hand. To address some of the (fairly decent) points mentioned, however:
It's not relevant indeed, except for that it gives a proper view of the matter, not the heavily-coloured, holier-than-thou view that's given by the AR mob.
  • It is not stated in the article that any of Kosta's awards belong to AR.
It is stated that AR has won "several awards" and it has a link to "Abandonia Reloaded's awards", which clearly shows Kosta's awards there.
  • It was also not stated in the article that AR is the first site dedicated to freeware, however, I have added a bit to makes sure it is perfectly clear that is not the case.
Tom Henrik said this a bit higher: "AR is truly the first site to gather all freeware games on one site"
  • It is stated in the article that there is a large ratio of adventure games. However, from the references of the games in the content section of the article, there is obviously more than "just" AGS games on the site.
That's true. The ratio's been going from 1/2 AGS games to 1/3th slowly, but quite some people on the forums've been complaining that Abandonia Reloaded should've been called Abandonia AGS or Abandonia Adventures throughout its history, and they all've been kicked out for it. The ratio always've shown this to be a problem, but's always been ignored up til recently, so you can't possibly say it hasn't been focusing on AGS and not on any other engine.
The issue being discussed here is not quality, or methodology, or the history with the above poster, or his issues with the person who won that "most helpful scener" award or the site itself, as the article makes no mention of any of those. The issue at hand is notability, and the above poster admittedly states that he considers AR to have some notability. Taikara 17:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The issue being discussed here is whether or not the page meets Wikipedia requirements. Nor the awards, nor how "special" AR is, nor its notability (as those friends of mine weren't more than five, which can hardly apply as being "notable") That is also what I'm addressing here. If you call countering fake arguments and trying to win a discussion by dropping in as many people that parrot what you want them to say with actual facts a grudge, then yep, I'm talking out of a grudge here.--195.144.90.5 17:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We get it, you had issues with the AR community, and you're doing your best to get the article deleted. However, the bottom line here is that all of your complaints are fully fixable without resorting to the deletion of the article, as per WP:DEL. The notability issue is what is being addressed in this AfD discussion - and that is an actual fact. Taikara 18:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What's having had issues with the community got to do with this? I was talking about why the page doesn't comply with Wikipedia's standards. So far, the "being special", the awards and the notability've been claimed as reasons for that. I don't understand what you think I'm talking about, but that's what this entire discussion's been about. If breaking those Wikipedia policies can be fixed without deleting the page, then please, feel free to let us know how. --195.144.90.5 19:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I already have... it's called editing. But as a suggestion, you could probably start by actually reading the WP:DEL policy, where it clearly states that articles lacking NPOV and containing accuracy issues do not necessarily need to be deleted. However, I think that your objection to the article being kept is quite clear (and we'll just pretend you're refering to notability, and nothing else, as all the other complaints do not require deletion). No need to continue beating a dead horse, unless that's just how you get your kicks. Taikara 19:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see that I have to both apologize and clarify my earlier statement. (Hopefully without going too far of topic from the discussion at hand). When I said that "Another point is that there wasn't really a Freeware center, before AR was created." and "AR is truly the first site to gather all freeware games on one site, regardless of age, engine and genre." I did not mean that AR was the very first freeware site to have been created. Far from it. What I meant was that AR is the most notable of the lot. If you do a quick Alexa ranking with other sites, you'll find that no-one is ranked as high as AR. (Apart from HOTU, but that isn't a freeware only dedicated site. It just have a lot of freeware games thrown into the mix).

Traffic Rank for gamehippo.com: 63,957 and Traffic Rank for caiman.us: 31,873 seems to be higher. Besides, if you don't mean that AR is the first freeware site, then it's no use in actually saying it is, as it'll only mislead people that don't know about it.

For instance, www.BigBlueCup.com (The AGS official homepage) has an Alexa rating of 120 353, yet is has a Wikipedia page of its own.

On the other hand, AGS's been mentioned on various independant sites and's bound to have various independant publications, which's another way besides Alexa ranking to be worthy of a Wikipedia article.

There is no doubt that AGS deserves the page, but from a purely Alexa statistical point of view, AR should deserve it more. So, just having a good Alexa ranking should not be the only criteria for an Wikipedia article (as there would be no discussion whether AR deserved it or not, then), but in my mind in order to deserve an article, the site should offer something that no-one else does, and that makes it unique.

The policies're clear on what makes a site apply for being worthy of an article on here and what not. Besides, even if going aside from the policies is a way, then that reason still doesn't apply for AR, as there're other, more well-known sites that've been 'round far longer that offer the same thing.

In AR's case, this uniqueness is found in the effort placed into each single update,

This effort exists out of "Requirements: Processor recommended", "Bit cheap some enemies" along with other Engrish, leaving entire desktops in the screenshots, so you can even see what song the person that took that screenshot was listening to and a whole lot of empty fields in each information part then? Plus all the mess-ups in the updates themselves?

the interviews with the makers, the diversity of games hosted (in terms of engine and genres)

Again, check the ratio of adventure games (which're pretty much all AGS games) against the other games. I wouldn't exactly call diversity of engine and genre a strong point of AR.

and the banners made for the games. I know that there is an overload of adventure games on the site, and we are trying to fix that. However, as AR is a community driven project, we showcase what people review. As long as we get in more adventure games, than other games - we will continue to put out more adventures.

If you check those submissions, that community seems to exist out of Deathdude then. That's one person, who's part of the staff. One person and an occasional passer-by isn't exactly a community, and if that one person's part of the crew, he'd know that there're too many AGS games on there in comparisson with the other genres/engines. In other words, it doesn't exactly show to be a community-driven project, and the focus on one specific engine instead of an equal share of all genres and engines is the site's choice.--Kon-Tiki 18:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC) (aka [User:195.144.90.5|195.144.90.5])[reply]

If you take a look at the forum topic in which we ask the public for help ( http://www.reloaded.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=116 ), you will see that the number of Adventure games on that list is very small in comparrison to the other genres. (If the above link is against the rules of this discussion, then I apologize, and a mod should feel free to edit it away). So, in conclusion, I apologize for the above statements that might have been confusing, but I hope that I have managed to get across my views for why I believe that AR deserves an article of its own (and not just be merged with Abandonia).Tom Henrik 14:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Just to make a note of it, against WP:TPG, Kon-Tiki has been editing into other people's comments in this discussion, making the flow of discussion a bit more confusing than necessary. Please be aware that the indented, unsigned comments within a few comments above belong to Kon-Tiki (who is also 195.144.90.5) --Taikara | Talk 19:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Taken from [1] (fourth item): (...) If you are responding to another editor, put your comment directly below theirs, making sure it is indented (using multiple bullets).--Kon-Tiki 20:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Kon-Tiki, below the comment you are responding to, not within. You see, by editing your response into their comment, it becomes unclear who is actually responding, as the individual sections of your comments are not signed. It's kind of like kindergarten - write your name on your things, and keep your hands in your own personal space and off of other people's things. I would hope you could comprehend that basic common courtesy, but please pardon me for attempting to inform others who may be reading this discussion what has occured for their benefit. Taikara | Talk 01:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's comprehendible and clear enough this way, as the flow obviously shows two blocks, not one. If I'd've used various amounts of indention, it'd be weird, but it's crystal clear the way it is now and has nothing to do with lack common courtesy or any other insults you're throwing at me.If you're so set on proper formatting, you might want to tell Tom to put a bulleting in front of his comment, though, as that does disturb the flow, as nobody can tell where the previous comment stopped and his starts, except from reading through and seeing where the context claims a new comment. --Kon-Tiki 02:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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