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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Nomination withdrawn. Consensus is to keep. PeaceNT 16:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Blondi

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Blondi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This one is no doubt going to provoke howls (if you'll pardon the expression) of protest from dog-lovers, history buffs & Nazis alike, and I apologise in advance to the closing admin for the fact that you're probably going to have to wade through 200 lines of WP:WAX on this. I initially planned to prod this, but in light of the number of editors who've worked on it there's no chance this won't be contested. I realise she's a famous person's dog, but at the end of the day she's still just a ****ing Alsation, who accomplished nothing in her own right other than have five puppies (she didn't star in any propaganda films, or die while attacking the Russian soldiers, for instance). The sole source is a single-line sentence from the (itself highly controversial) Anthony Beevor book "Berlin: The Downfall"; although I've no doubt that every word in this article is true, she doesn't seem to have had much coverage even at the time. The only comparable articles I can find (in an admittedly not very thorough search) are Checkers, who is only covered in terms of the Checkers speech and not in his own right, Humphrey who probably just about scrapes through WP:N on the grounds of the press coverage regarding his alleged poisoning/shooting by Cherie Blair, and Socks who probably ought to go as well since his 15 minutes of fame are well and truly over. - iridescenti (talk to me!) 11:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep, now I just have to decide if I'm a dog-lover, history buff, or a Nazi... Okay, it's a really weak keep, but, I do think we WAX precedent. gren グレン 12:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I can find [over 150] google books and [lots] google news archive hits which ,from what small snippets I've read, shows that the article will be attributable to reliable sources. Has attracted enough attention to sustain an encyclopediac article - Peripitus (Talk) 12:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The dog's the subject of multiple, independent sources, even if they're not cited on the article here. As everyone knows that Hitler's dog was called Blondi, and that he killed it before he committed suicide, it's probably one of the most famous dogs in history. Not in the Lassie class but nevertheless notable. Nick mallory 12:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As per Peripitus and Nick mallory. Jeff Silvers 15:17, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I think that the pets of (in)famous people tend to be notable. In addition, the unusual manner of her death makes her notable. I just watched a documentary yesterday on the History Channel noting that all her puppies were poisoned by Himmler's cyanide as a test of the poison's potency. Ngchen 17:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Fails WP:N utterly, which states that to be notable a topic must be "the subject of multiple non-trivial published works that are reliable and independent of the subject." A one- or two-sentence mention in a several hundred page book is a trivial reference. One-sentence mentions in news articles are trivial references. Those who are asserting the existence of such sources, please back up your claim by adding citations to the article before the end of the AFD. Otto4711 18:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge To the main article on Hitler. Even if the dog received passing mention in many books about Hitler, that does not require that it have a separate article. See also Laddie Boy (dog); same plan of merging would be appropriate for that little-known Presidential dog, as well as Fala , Barney and Socks. Checkers is appropriately given a mention in Checkers speech. They got passing mentions as a consequence of who their owner was, so mention them in an article about the owner. Edison 18:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, famous for her infamous owner, died in an infamous manner in one of the major events of the 20th century. 129 Google News Archive results for "blondi hitler" when limiting the search to free articles (300+ when searching behind paywalls). --Dhartung | Talk 19:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Totting up Google hits is not a measure of notability. All it tells you is that the words "Hitler" and "Blondi" were used in the same article. Try actually looking at some of those articles and you'll see that they are trivial mentions. Repetitions of "Hitler had a dog called Blondi," even several hundred repetitions of it, does not constitute non-trivial mentions of the animal and the dog is not the subject of the articles. Find a source or two of which the dog is the primary subject. Otto4711 19:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My argument is that there is sufficent published information to write a sourced article, not that the number of hits equals notability. On Google News Archive, the majority of the results are reliable sources, which is not the case with "regular Google". --Dhartung | Talk 22:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Dhartung. Famous dog, infamous owner, died in an infamous manner in one of the major events of human history. The article is totally verifiable and totally NPOV. To delete it based entirely off a narrow reading of the WP:N guideline would be ludicrous. --JayHenry 21:36, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep not for any notability of her qua dog, but as a spin-off of the main Hitler article. That man is (unfortunately) one of history's most notable people, which is why even details of his personal life (if sourced) deserve a thorough encyclopedic treatment. Sandstein 22:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment since we have articles on Harry Potter's friends' pets I suppose it puts Blondi in perspective. I still think all that needs to be said could be said on a single sentence on the main article, though. Since there are delete !votes I can't withdraw this, but if any passing admins want to WP:SNOW do feel free - iridescenti (talk to me!) 23:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep - content is referenced, we have other articles on famous dogs, and a dog owned by one of the key figures of the 20th century for over a decade, who was an important part of his life and helps shed light on his character, is quite notable. Biruitorul 00:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Noting that there are other articles about pets of the famous and infamous is the WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument. Please address the problem of the sources being passing references made while talking about the owner. Edison 05:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, I missed that. He still owned her for most of the war, and was in the bunker. We have articles on some pretty obscure people, just because they were in the bunker. Edison: passing references are good enough for me in this case. Biruitorul 16:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep I'm usually a pretty strong deletionist -- however, aside from Checkers, Blondi was possibly the most geopolitically important figure of canine heritage in the 20th Century, and her contributions to the Nazi regime should not be allowed to be scooped out of the yard of history by dog-apologist historians. --Dynaflow 05:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum: I just realized this whole discussion was doomed to Godwin closure from the very beginning. =D --Dynaflow 07:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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